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[Fantasmo]

Anybody else irritated about the lack of audio solutions for PC?

I know I'm in the minority here, but I use my home theatre for gaming. I play on an Athlon XP w/ Geforce 6800GT. My computer is hooked up to S-Video out, audio is hooked up through nForce2's Soundstorm SPDIF output into my Dolby Digital Receiver. I sit on my recliner, drop a wooden board across the armrests and use my wireless keyboard and mouse to revel in high-res video, and 5.1 audio Home Theatre goodness with Far Cry, Doom3, and UT2k4. Recently my system has gotten slow and I realized it was time to upgrade.

Lo and Behold I find out that there are ZERO, count em, ZERO solutions for Dolby Digital for games past the nForce2 generation. nVidia dropped Soundstorm from their entire product line. Creative Audigy has nothing besides analog 5.1 (headphone jacks) but Home Theatres don't support this. For some f'ed up reason, their coax only outputs to regular stereo sound, NO SURROUND! I like the fact that I can hear someone sneaking up behind me in UT2k4, 2 speakers doesn't cut it!

How can PC's claim to be the king of power if audio doesn't support the king of setups? How is it possible that the graphics arena has Geforce 6800 and ATI X800 and audio is so sorely lacking? Why are people able to play at an obscene 1600x1200 4xAA 16xAF but only get stereo sound? And does anyone actually have 6 speakers setup around their PC? Everybody that has 4.1 or higher just crowds every speaker right in front of their monitor. That's not surround, that's 5 speakers jumbled together.

::Spits on floor::

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Huh?!

Call of Duty (PC) has the best sound I've heard in recent memory. My PC is hooked up to a Aiwa 5.1 receiver, so results may vary.

I have a cheapy SBLive 5.1 too.

*shrug*

I am by no means an audiophile. Just give me highs, mids and full lows and I'm happy.

 

[Zaptruder]

I have an audigy with logitech 680 speakers...

they seem to do surround quite well... and no I haven't put them all infront of me. I enjoy my 5.1 just as much as the next 5.1 owning type guy

 

[borghe]

eh.. the new nForce4 board out from Asus (the one I plan on getting) supposedly has 8 channel output over spdif.

Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe

Don't know if that is right or not or how it encodes that out of digital (DD EX?)

 

[Fantasmo]

DaCocaBrava,

I think we're discussing two different setups as I've fully researched this recently, but you may know something I don't.

How do you have Call of Duty connected? Coaxial SPDIF output or analog (headphone jack) 5.1? The only Home Theatres that support analog 5.1 input are ones that support DVD-Audio, which is to say very few. All Creative implementations of digital audio output to stereo sound (2 channel) instead of 5.1. In other words, you do not get 6 separate channels of audio.

 

[Fantasmo]

borghe,

No, unfortunately it does not support 8.1 over digital connections unless they are pre-encoded. That means the only thing that will ever be greater than stereo sound is a DVD, since there is no mixing done on the fly, the information is already on the disc!

No current or future boards support real time mixing of Dolby Digital outside of nForce2 and Soundstorm. In fact, Xbox uses an implementation of Soundstorm to output in Dolby Digital.

That board will only get you 2 channels of audio with games unless you have a DVD-Audio receiver or use computer speakers!!

Check this link out to see the difference, read the Soundstorm part on Asus's own A7N8X Deluxe
http://www.asus.com/products/mb/socketa/a7n8x-d/overview.htm

Experience the full power of surround sound audio with the NVIDIA® SoundStorm™. With the integrated APU (Audio Processing Unit) you will feel the impact in games or music. And with the only Dolby® Digital 5.1 encoder you can hear it all in amazing digital cinema clarity on your home theater receiver or digital PC speaker system.

I'm aware that 5.1 computer speakers exist but that sucks as I have an awesome Home Theatre system. Who wants to sit next to a tiny monitor when you've got an underutilized Home Theatre setup?

 

[borghe]

yes, I have the A7N8X Deluxe.. I know all about SoundStorm..

the page I linked to was rather vague though I see it is a Realtek controller so it probably is all analog out.

 

[Fantasmo]

the page I linked to was rather vague though I see it is a Realtek controller so it probably is all analog out.

The kicker is that even if the Realtek has a digital output, you will still get nothing out of the center and rear channels in games and the sub does not get its own discrete signal either.

In other words, when you upgrade to a new motherboard and connect using a digital cable, only your front left and right speakers work in games, that's it! SPDIF only plays in stereo without something called Real-Time Dolby Digital encoding!

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Junkster... I'm not using all the channels as I play in stereo w/ a headset most of the time.

I find it odd that w/ the popularity of HTPCs these days, and the thin line between the office and the entertainment center, that PC audio isn't on par w/ that of HT audio.

 

[Fantasmo]

Junkster... I'm not using all the channels as I play in stereo w/ a headset most of the time.

Sadly, I figured that you did.

I find it odd that w/ the popularity of HTPCs these days, and the thin line between the office and the entertainment center, that PC audio isn't on par w/ that of HT audio.

That I can answer you easily. Games are not pre-encoded in Dolby Digital because the sound source changes depending on where it occurred onscreen. As someone walks around you, you hear the footsteps walk around and that requires real-time encoding.

TV shows and DVDs are pre-encoded in Dolby Digital so all they have to do is pass the sound thru to the receiver; no work is actually done on the sound chip because it's already there on the DVD. As a result, digital out works fine for movies, but not games!

However, a lot of techno-geeks these days are gamers like me, so I find it hard to believe there's no market for games. I know I'm in the minority here, but if there's a market for $400+ Geforce6's and ATI X800's, how can there not be a market for Home Theatre DD sound?

 

[Oh! My Car!]

You may be interested in M-AUDIO's PCI solutions, 5.1 Revo perhaps?

But more importantly, everything works with that card and makes audigy/soundstrom etc. sound like crap in comparison.

 

[Vennt]

M-Audio's kit rocks.

I'm considering getting a Delta 1010 from them to replace my Roland VS1680 & finally go 24bit/96kHz.

 

[Fantasmo]

Oh! My Car!,

Thanks for the link but upon further investigation, Revolution doesn't have support for it either! It's probably great for music and probably has audiophile-friendly sound quality. (btw AC-3 is the codec name for Dolby Digital)

Check it out:

digital out transmits PCM, plus passthrough of AC-3 and DTS (coaxial)
supports DTS output and Dolby Digital 5.1 decoding using third-party applications

No DD encoding, hence no 5.1 on Home Theatres with PC Games. Yay 2 channel stereo sound with games!!!

See what I mean?

 

[Teknopathetic]

:shrug: Not that important.

 

[Oni Jazar]

How many PC games support Dolby Digital 5.1?

 

[Fantasmo]

:shrug: Not that important.

Not to you, but to anybody who has a high-end setup it is. When I can hear where a shot is firing from, or an enemy is stalking me from, I have enough information to spin and fire without guessing. I can't describe it to you, but once you're used to 5.1 you simply can't go back. This is one of those things you didn't know you needed until you had it.

How many games support it? Probably all Source engine, Doom3 engine, Far Cry engine, and Unreal 2.5 engine games.

I'm fairly certain that NFS:U did as well (makes it much easier to cut someone off in a drag race when you know where they're located).

However I know for a fact that Far Cry, D3, and UT2004 all support it!

EDIT: HL2 support

 

[BigGreenMat]

Junkster, it is exceedingly rare for ANYTHING to encode its sound into a dolby digital stream. The fact is a computer doesn't NEED to encode sound data just so it can decode it one step later. I mean you are complaining that it doesn't add 2 steps to sound output that are completely irrelevant. Direct unencoded sound is better than encoded then decoded sound.

 

[Hitokage]

Besides, why don't you own a receiver that accepts multichannel analog input?

BTW, DD = Lossy compression.

 

[Fantasmo]

BigGreenMat,

I highly disagree with your guesstimate as I've heard both implementations. A 7.1 board in 7.1 analog audio and 5.1 on my Soundstorm and they both sound great, however my setup involves using a Home-Theatre, which is in fact, a market that already exists.

I'm not looking to do music and I'm not really an audiophile although I like nice sound quality. I'm here for gaming, aren't you? Dolby Digital sound is amazing once you've heard it and anyone who has played a game in 5.1 DD knows what I'm talking about.

A digital connection eliminates any motherboard noise fully. I know because analog on the soundstorm sucks while DD is flawless.

We have 64-bit processors with clock cycles to spare to encode in realtime, and Home Theatres with DD have been around for over 10 years yet only 1 set of motherboards and 1 console support it... we're talking about a Home Theatre STANDARD here, not some off the wall junk.

If there's console support for 480p, 720p, and 1080i (HDTVs), as well as high end graphics cards for PC, and the current audio standard involves using coax or optical digital audio cables, then why isn't there a PC gaming solution for it?

My confusion still stands, if there's a market for high-end gaming video (1000s of ATI/nVidia fanboys out there!), then how come nobody has an audio solution anymore?

 

[DSN2K]

blame Creative.

 

[teepo]

doom3 and halflife2 had AWESOME audio.

better then anything i've heard in consoles.

 

[Fantasmo]

Besides, why don't you own a receiver that accepts multichannel analog input?

BTW, DD = Lossy compression.

Factually, yes DD = Lossy compression, however if you ever hear it you'd be hard pressed to find anything better in practice. And the alternative is either Stereo or Pro Logic sound. Analog does not = better. My only alternative is to spend $600 on a new receiver and speakers since the setup is integrated. In addition, people do not upgrade their sound systems every year like they do PCs. Plenty of people hang onto audio equipment for nearly 20 years. Unlike video equipment, sound equipment doesn't get exponentially better over the years. The quality of multi-channel analog audio is not better, it's just different. Maybe on a spreadsheet it is, but not to your ears unless you're a music person. It blows my mind that a DD solution was dropped; it's not that it can't be done, it just won't be done. The motherboards weren't even that expensive, and it already worked 2 motherboard generations ago with no hit to framerate. Nothing was complicated about it -- it worked and it worked well.

Play Halo2 with DD and then afterwards with Pro Logic or stereo then tell me what you think of DD.

 

[borghe]

ok, I see where this is going...

I have to disagree with you. You are arguing on PC sound quality sucking solely under the basis that there is no "convenient" way to get all 4-8 channels to a receiver, at least as convenient as a single coax or optical cable. By this definition DVD-Audio and SACD also suck as 99.999% of the setups out there require 6 cables to be run to a receiver as well.

The fact is that PC audio today is better than it has ever been. Add to that 24/96 and 24/192 equipped soundcards and it potentially SOUNDS better today than it ever has. The ability to carry that out across a single cable, and compressed no less, has really very little to do with quality and more to do with convenience.

While I love the Dolby output capabilities of my A7N8X Deluxe, that certainly won't preclude me from hooking the system up to the multichannel inputs on the receiver instead when I get my new A8N-SLI. And I guarantee you when that happens, the last thing that will be crossing my mind is "Wow, the sound in HL2 kind of sucks.."

 

[Fantasmo]

hah, I'd like you to point out where I stated that this was a Sound Quality issue. If you want to argue semantics, "Why does audio SUCK on PC?" to me means that the state of audio industry on PC sucks because nobody is producing a perfectly good product.

Analogy time: What if everyone dropped S-Video in favor of component video so your only choices were component and composite? Wouldn't that suck?

I don't care about the difference between 1 and 6 cables. DD is everywhere in the Home Theatre world, has been for years and there's no reason for soundcard/chip designers not to include a software/hardware DD solution.

DD has been around for so many years and the only DD solution did it perfectly with no framerate loss. If you want to be perfectly precise, the framerate hit was 4% for me using SS over my Live 5.1. That's nothing IMHO.

Stereo and Pro-logic are supported everywhere because everyone has it, not because they are technically superior or inferior to anything else. Same goes for DD. The market exists in the form of Home Theatre watchers/gamers so what exactly are you arguing? I don't really know why you'd want it to NOT have it, as it doesn't detract from anything and offers quite a bit.

Seems to me nobody on this board shares my situation, so it's easy for anybody here to call me a whiner, but the product was already there and the market still is!

 

[Pfucata]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19914

 

[maskrider]

Yes, blame Creative.

Intel latest chips (915 ?) has some preliminary (5.1 encode to DD output) support built-in from what I know, but the driver is not quite ready from what I've heard.

 

[Fantasmo]

Pfucata,

Nice link! I suppose I can wait until next summer, as I can still run today's games at a minimum of 30fps with a good amount of detail. I'm not gonna hold my breath though, as I've never heard of Terratac before and it seems Cmedia was supposed to have a PCI DD encoding solution and never released it. Looks like I'll have to sell my AGP graphics card though.

maskrider,

Where did you hear this info? Any information would be appreciated, thanks!

EDIT: This has me intrigued

Especially this part:

Support for multiple audio streams to different playback locations (such as voice chatting while playing a 5.1-surround sound game)

Could this mean we can have properly positioned/volume Voice Chat in games relative to position in the game world? That could be very cool!

 

[maskrider]

maskrider,

Where did you hear this info? Any information would be appreciated, thanks!

My friend (he is a HTPC guy, and so do I) recently help a friend of him on building a new PC with the said motherboard, he tested a driver (not in release form at the moment and the option is rather vague - his words) that lets the board encode 5.1 to DD output and he tested that it worked with some apps, but not all.

I do not plan on upgrading nor changing yet and I hadn't asked it in detail. Better check the info of the onboard audio portion on the latest Intel motherboards and see if there is updates.

 

[borghe]

sorry.. I didn't mean sound quality and no, you never said that.. everything I said holds true though I will edit that quality part.

Analogy time: What if everyone dropped S-Video in favor of component video so your only choices were component and composite? Wouldn't that suck?

as with your initial question, it depends on who you ask. If you were asking me, then the answer would be no. All I use is component and DVI. If you were to ask you, then the answer would probably be yes. While I can understand the thought train behind "more the better", to me it really doesn't matter.

I don't care about the difference between 1 and 6 cables. DD is everywhere in the Home Theatre world, has been for years and there's no reason for soundcard/chip designers not to include a software/hardware DD solution.

This is not entirely on track. Dolby Digital was first created because they had no way to physically fit 6 tracks of uncompressed audio on a standard 35mm film optical track. It was then adopted on laserdisc because again, there was no way to physically fit 6 channels of uncompressed audio on a laserdisc. Finally it was adopted on DVD because by that point it made the most sense. You could literally just take the soundtrack data verbatim from the movie and put it on the disc.

However, this hardly makes DD THE choice. There is still DTS and SDDS in the theaters, and outside of the theater there is still DVD-Audio, SACD Multichannel, and PC sound, none of which uses Dolby Digital.

DD has been around for so many years and the only DD solution did it perfectly with no framerate loss. If you want to be perfectly precise, the framerate hit was 4% for me using SS over my Live 5.1. That's nothing IMHO.

Though you forget to mention the licensing that nVidia had to pay Dolby, and forget to mention the loss of quality, and forget to mention that you are limited to 5.1, 6.1 if a solution was developed for EX, as opposed to analog out which is only limited to the number of connectors included and the way the the sound is steered. DirectSound3D isn't programmed per channel. it is programmed 360°. The drivers then divide that up amongst the channels. So an 8 channel soundcard would in theory be more accurate for DirectSound3D than a 5 channel one.

Stereo and Pro-logic are supported everywhere because everyone has it, not because they are technically superior or inferior to anything else. Same goes for DD. The market exists in the form of Home Theatre watchers/gamers so what exactly are you arguing? I don't really know why you'd want it to NOT have it, as it doesn't detract from anything and offers quite a bit.

I never said I didn't want it, but arguing that computer sound is worse because of its lack of inclusion (was careful not to say quality there) is silly. Especially when virtually every receiver being sold these days has multi-channel inputs and can be had for starting at $200. It would be more like complaining that your DVD player doesn't include composite video anymore. sure there are many people out there who probably still use composite video, but don't expect me to stand on their side of the equation.

Seems to me nobody on this board shares my situation, so it's easy for anybody here to call me a whiner, but the product was already there and the market still is!

I'm not disagreeing with this, but the problem is a) the market is going away (whether through evolution or requirement being pointless) and b) the alternative is entirely viable.

If the lack of Dolby Digital meant no multichannel sound on the PC, man.. I would be taking up the fight right next to you. But all it means to me is I'm connecting my new MB to my receiver with different cables and potentially will have crisper sound through better DACs and no compression.. hopefully you can see where I am coming from. If someone ADDED DD onto that, I would be fine... as long as I could still get 7.1 uncompressed out of the board.

 

[Fantasmo]

borghe,

My argument is that DD is a standard and a good one at that. I also happen to have DTS. I feel that these are both much higher quality standards that existed in the past (comparison to stereo and pro-logic) and they exist currently in many people's homes; the same homes that probably have Home Theatres.

My argument also includes the fact that this hardware existed without detriment to anything before or after it. The framerate hit was negligible and this was on old hardware. The only detriment was a licensing perspective, one that pays for itself once enough people become aware that they can hook up their current systems to it. In terms of normal entertainment rooms (not counting 5.1 computer systems, which I've never seen anyone ever setup), you're either at my level or much higher and they dropped the biggest market, me, and are only providing for one level, you.

So I read everything you stated and came away with one thing. You're arguing with me because you have the alternative hardware and I don't.

Let me give you a virtual handshake.

 

[borghe]

My argument also includes the fact that this hardware existed without detriment to anything before or after it.

technically this is not true. you are limited to 5.1 channel output on that hardware despite the fact that the API isn't programmed to the channel but in true 360°. There is also the case of reduced quality through compression as well as an increase in cost from the licensing fees paid to Dolby. As for the licensing paying for itself, no, we would keep paying for it, just like we pay for licensing on DVD, VHS, CD, etc. It is an increased cost that you can guarantee the manufcaturer will pass on to us. and this isn't even including company politics or issues.

so no, it isn't necessarily a win/win situation. if it were I can only believe it would still be around today.

remember that I have an A7N8X Deluxe. It is great, I love it. But I am not tied to its digital dolby either.

Sound today would be worse if there was no way for it to be as good today as it was yesterday. You are claiming that's the case because you can't connect it.. I say for $200 you might be able to connect it, and if $200 is too steep for a computer gamer who SHOULD be used to somewhat pricey upgrades on a rather frequent basis, then you might want to look at sticking solely to console gaming.

and it could be argued that moving to 8 channel discrete sound outputs has no disadvantage either.. no CPU hit, more channels than DD5.1, etc.

No, I am not arguing with you for the sake of arguing. believe it or not your position on this is hardly as infallable as you are indicating...

 

[tahrikmili]

nForce? Creative? Yuck.

Go get a decent Terratec sound card. Tsk..

 

[Wendo]

It's really, truly, all Creative's fault.

Do any of you remember the golden age of Aureal and A3D 2.0?

Well, on their deathbed, Aureal paper launched a card called the Vortex 2 SQ3500, which just happened to have DD surround decoding in hardware. And this was in 1999!

A3D is also, to date, the best sounding 3d positional audio that has ever been created. People often point to the increased bit rates of sound cards as indications that things are actually moving forward- yet 3d positional audio has taken a BIG step backwards since the late 90's.

If Creative didn't kill them and buy their corpse, you can bet your ass that Aureal would be putting some sweet ass soundcards out.

 

[gohepcat]

nForce? Creative? Yuck.

Go get a decent Terratec sound card. Tsk..

Not for gaming...and that what this thread is about.

Hey Junkster. I absolutely agree with you man. The real time DD encoding and digital output from the Soundstorm was great, and really seemed like that's where the tech was heading. Then they dropped it for the Nforce3 and I assumed they would pick it up for the Nforce 4...but they didn't. It's really shocking.

I would really think about investing in a receiver that has discreet inputs. I assume that the support for the Soundstorm is going to fall off the map.

 

[Fantasmo]

borghe,

Is compression the only legs you have to stand on? The difference between DD and DTS is quite a bit in terms of compression numbers and bitrate. In actual practice, people cannot discern the difference unless they are *truly* listening for it. DTS has a bit more on the high end but most people WILL NOT notice. That's nitpicking. But the difference between the stereo/pro logic stuff and DD? That's HUGE! If I really cared about hearing somebody fart in the background of a recording session, I'd have bought a $10,000 record player with a $20,000 diamond needle! But I didn't because I bought something that most of the people on this forum have a use for; gaming and movies.

The difference between DD/7.1 Audio... not so huge! One of my buddies has a setup we both agree that his hardware does not sound any better than mine and required more wires, more money, etc etc.

In fact, if you want to keep throwing around mumbo-jumbo about compression and other artifacts that come into play, why don't you talk about the fact that line-noise comes heavily into play with analog audio? My digital signal on SS is noise free compared to a high end Audigy2 which hisses quite a bit due to electrical signals running across the board. My whole viewpoint is that no matter where you turn, you get the shit end of the stick. Do you really want to go into a go-nowhere debate over whether digital is better than analog? That's like starting a CD vs record debate! Come on man, where do you think that's gonna go?

I can't upgrade my receiver as I have a high-end, yet still integrated DD/DTS decoder 5.1 set. It's called the Videologic Digitheatre DTS and has phenomenal satellites, Sirocco Crossfires to be exact, a wonderful center channel, and a great sub. The sound is crisp and clean and can rumble my entire room as well as play music fairly well. Being a theatre/gaming aficiondo and absolutely certainly not a music/audiophile guy, the Digititheatre served all my purposes perfectly. If I upgrade, all I can salvage is the satellites which means added cost for other new speakers. However, you need to match speakers so I might need to junk it all. This means I'd have to blow about $500-$1000 on an equivalent setup to get the same thing I already have, or at the most, a tiny bit better!

Since DD/DTS/analog 7.1 audio is so difficult to discern from each other, there's absolutely no reason for me or other Home-Theatre people to upgrade for at least 2 years. This is true even when you factor in these "serious compression and 360 sound problems " that are simply, truly, and absolutely inessential for just about all of Gaming-Age forum members. I'd put money on that!

Understand that this is not obsolete hardware, and DD EX and DTS equivalent is only an evolution and not revolution and is backward compatible with DD5.1.

Then add the rest of the equation. When you take into account analog Creative Labs Audigy line-noise and horrible clunky drivers with software, EAX domination, A3d's death, all competitors unable to break in with their own 3d implementation, and Creative's lack of need to evolve, then you've got a jumbled mess of implementations and standards and Soundstorm could have been something of a revolution. At the very least, it could have started an audio war between nVidia and Creative much like ATI and nVidia with graphics cards. That's not a bad thing considering all the positives it brings to the table. However, understand I'm not in it as a fanboy or a war, just someone looking for something that was really good and already there!

If you look at the market, people who have SA-CD or DVD-Audio are either music aficiondos... or they might be techno-geeks (who would probably also buy an N-Gage).

I can go on but I don't feel like regurgitating all the positives and negatives. I still stand by my original (rewritten) statement, that the audio industry on the PC sucks and doesn't cater to a good portion of the market. We are gamers and we watch movies too. That usually goes hand in hand.

Ad nauseam, and feel free to call me a whiner.

 

[aaaaa0]

This is definitely not Creative's fault. Aureal never had Dolby Digital ENCODING in hardware.

No one had, until NVidia did it for the MCPX.

My random pulled out of my ass guess is that Microsoft licensed the Dolby Digital encoder for the xbox with a giant money hat, and NVidia got a sublicense from Microsoft to implement it in hardware for the MCPX, because they were the contractor for the xbox audio chip.

Maybe through some obscure contract clause, that license also applied to the nearly identical PC version of the chip, which is why it was put into the NForce2.

However, it ONLY applied to that version of the chip. After they broke up with Microsoft, NVidia probably lost the license to use the Dolby Digital encoder in any newer designs, and it is probably too expensive for NVidia to license the Dolby Digital encoder themselves, given the likely number of sales they'd get for that feature.

Of course I don't know any of this for sure, since I am not privy to any of the terms of any of the contracts, I'm just randomly guessing.

You also don't need Dolby Digital encoding to get true multichannel audio -- you just need a home theatre receiver that can take multichannel digital or analog input.

The only thing Dolby Digital encoding buys you is easy connection to a home theatre system -- you only need to run 1 cable, and you don't need a multichannel digital or analog input -- this is great for a console which has to work with every HT system out there, which is why the xbox had it built in.

 

[Fantasmo]

aaaaa0,
Obviously you didn't read the whole thread

gohepcat,
hopefully we'll have real alternatives in the near future.

 

[aaaaa0]

Well in my opinion PC audio is pretty much at a dead-end anyway.

As CPUs get faster, the need for dedicated audio hardware decreases drastically.

In an ideal future, you have no audio hardware in your machine, and the PC just spits multichannel PCM over a digital link (something like USB2.0 or Firewire) directly into your home theatre system.

No Dolby Digital, no DTS, no SDDS, no multiple cables, S/PDIF, or TOSlink needed.

If you have a piece of source media that's encoded in Dolby Digital or DTS, etc, you just run a software codec, which you can just offload to a fraction of one of the CPU cores in your multi-core PC.

If you want to run some effects like an HRTF, reverb or what not, just use up another faction of a percent of a CPU core to apply the effects with a software effects filter.

 

[Fantasmo]

aaaaa0,

Yea that's an ideal future and yes you're right, just as borghe is correct about most of his points.

However we're living in the present and those of us who have Home Theatres without DVD-Audio (read: a lot of people) are left with stereo sound.

It would cost me over $1500 to up my framerate and have a marginally better audio experience when it should be costing me around half that.

 

[teh_pwn]

I've got Klipsch Promedia 5.1 Ultras and an Audigy 2 ZS connected, and it's teh awesome.

Well, when my speakers work. A power amplifier component is dying (I think it's capacitors, since it takes almost a minute for them to power up now), and I'm going to get them exchanged soon.

 

[Hitokage]

Factually, yes DD = Lossy compression, however if you ever hear it you'd be hard pressed to find anything better in practice. And the alternative is either Stereo or Pro Logic sound.

Stop being stupid. I meant discrete multichannel analog input. 6 channels, no encoding.

In fact, if you want to keep throwing around mumbo-jumbo about compression and other artifacts that come into play, why don't you talk about the fact that line-noise comes heavily into play with analog audio?

It's digital until it leaves your PC, at which point you should shield your cables better.

Do you really want to go into a go-nowhere debate over whether digital is better than analog? That's like starting a CD vs record debate! Come on man, where do you think that's gonna go?

With the way you rant, it's a go-nowhere debate regardless of the subject.

Being a theatre/gaming aficiondo and absolutely certainly not a music/audiophile guy

Being a home theater aficionado also means being an audiophile to some degree, otherwise you're just halfassing it.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

Junkster, I agree with you 100%.

I'm trying to use my PC with my home theatre set-up and it doesn't have 6 channel discrete inputs, just a bunch of optical and coax. Therefore I am stuck with stereo sound from my Audigy2ZS. It blows, especially since I can get a far superior gaming sound experience from the Xbox which does 5.1 directly through the optical port. I'm not buying a whole new receiver just for the PC. That's not the point of the thread.

Sure, the 6 discrete analog channels are technically better, blah blah. You guys can run those three headphone adapter cables and deal with that rat's nest if you want but from a usability and elegance standpoint you can't beat the simplicty and quality of a toslink or coax solution.

I DO blame creative. There's no excuse for allowing a $100 premium audio PC product to be beaten at something by a $150 console. Sure, keep the 6 analog channel solution for the audiophiles. But they ought to offer DD5.1 through that coax connection too. Just having stereo is a complete technical cop-out, IMO. I've always bought Creative Sound Cards since the SB Pro, but if someone else comes out with a DD5.1 Coax/Optical sound card that is just as compatible with games as the SB, I will be first in line.

 

[Fantasmo]

Thank you Dr. Zoidberg!

Seems a few people like to just argue. They can't understand that most of us don't need what they're selling. I've heard both and if my ears can't hear the difference, then I don't need to upgrade!

Anyway, after hearing about the 915 chipset from a poster on another forum (thank you so much!), I stumbled upon anandtech.com's 915 chipset roundup.... apparently the Asus P5GD2 has an onboard DD Live chip that does DD encoding!!

http://anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2293&p=9

You will also find the premium C-Media CMI9880 codec supporting the Intel High-Definition audio, with 8 channels and Dolby Digital Live technology support. The CMI9880 is the only audio solution in this roundup that has a built-in Dolby AC3 encoder, which can actually encode your digital audio into Dolby digital streams that can be output to the SPDIF for Dolby Digital playback. The CMI9880 does this real-time for any digital audio in your system to feed Dolby Digital playback. The rest of the boards in the roundup use sound solutions based on the newest HD codecs, but Asus carries High-Definition (Azalia) audio further on the P5GD2 Premium.

I'm going to contact Asus about the feasibility of implementing the same chip into a Socket939 motherboard.

Take your discrete analogs and shove em boys, DD Live is back!

 

[maskrider]

Anyway, after hearing about the 915 chipset from a poster on another forum (thank you so much!), I stumbled upon anandtech.com's 915 chipset roundup.... apparently the Asus P5GD2 has an onboard DD Live chip that does DD encoding!!

http://anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2293&p=9

Yeah ! A very attractive motherboard.

 

[Fantasmo]

Shit, it was your comment maskrider, that had me take a closer look at today's anandtech update, but for some reason I couldn't find "915" in this page when I did a search to give proper credit.

Damn short term memory. Thanks ;-)

 

[borghe]

AARGGHHHH!!!!!!

Ok, the FACT here is that SOME PEOPLE are saying that PC sound is junk because THEIR EQUIPMENT isn't current enough to support multichannel discrete input.

If this includes you as you read this, I sympathize with you. It is like getting that new DVD player and only having a 75ohm antenna input on your TV. It is unfortunate that PC makers took this feature out and left you in the cold. And that I am serious about. Unfortunately it is reality that manufacturers can't keep accomodating everyone.

HOWEVER, maybe, just maybe, it isn't the PC audio industry that is falling behind. Maybe it is that YOUR equipment is no longer suitable for where things are going. No multichannel input? Well, it isn't just the PC audio industry that has left you behind. It is the home audio industry as well. I am not trying to knock on your equipment, I am sure it is just fine. But to argue that PC audio sucks because you don't want to or can't upgrade your equipment.. well, the industry may suck, but the audio has progressed just fine unless you call 8 channel discrete audio a step backwards.

As for my arguments, first, audio compression IS noticeable on Dolby Digital. When compared to DTS AND ESPECIALLY when compared to uncompressed audio sampled at 16/48 or higher.

Second, that isn't the only limitation. There is the whole 5.1 channel limitation. Did you not read the part where it was said that DirectSound3D doesn't program to channels but programs to a 360° soundspace. It is then up to the drivers and sound card to split that up to the correct channels. Thus meaning that an 8 channel setup will be physically more accurate than a 5 channel setup.. Unlike home audio which can ONLY be 6.1 right now (if using DTS or DD), computer audio has no limitations. If you had a sound card capable of 16 channel output, it WOULD sound better than a card with 8 channel output because of the way DirectSound3D, EAX, and Aureal3D all work(ed).

So compressed audio and a fixed number of channels. Are they huge? No.. but they are nonetheless reasons AGAINST staying along a realtime Dolby encoding path.

Like I said, believe it or not I can sympathize with not having the equipment to accomodate the direction things are going in. It happens. But to sit here and say the industry is stagnating and dying when the truth is anything but, all because you can't or won't upgrade your existing equipment....

It's like saying the PC processor market is dying because they aren't making CPUs anymore to support my ancient Socket370 motherboard anymore.

 

[Fantasmo]

Ok, the FACT here is that SOME PEOPLE are saying that PC sound is junk because THEIR EQUIPMENT isn't current enough to support multichannel discrete input.

I hope you aren't pointing at me, because "PC sound is junK" implies bad Sound Quality, and as I've said, I don't think PC SQ is bad or junk!

HOWEVER, maybe, just maybe, it isn't the PC audio industry that is falling behind. Maybe it is that YOUR equipment is no longer suitable for where things are going.

I certainly agree that DD/DTS is not the path for where things are going. Where we disagree is that I think DD/DTS is nowhere near obsolete, as tons of people still have mono, stereo, pro logic, and up. Multichannel discrete analog is not prevalent and it won't be disseminated for quite a long time if monaural and stereo are any indication. DD/DTS have a much larger market penetration and all newer receivers support it as well as multichannel discrete analog. So that means that just about all receivers sold now have DD/DTS on up. It is a platform that is proven, that works, and that doesn't add much cost to the consumer. It is a better platform than monaural, stereo, and pro-logic, and continues to be sold. Xbox supports it, and DVDs support it. Everyone who buys a setup higher than stereo has this capability in their Home-Theatre. If you can't understand this simple fact, I'm done speaking with you.

But to argue that PC audio sucks because you don't want to or can't upgrade your equipment.. well, the industry may suck, but the audio has progressed just fine unless you call 8 channel discrete audio a step backwards.

This is where you need to stop. Again, this is not a SQ issue this is a compatibility issue. Why do you have to thread crap when I never once stated that PC SQ is crap? Every single last person in here agrees that your multichannel discrete receiver is teh bomb and you are supported just fine.

You also keep arguing about compression and soundspace, but I don't care about compression as much as you do! For most gamers and movie watchers, we don't need your technobabble to impress us, we like what we already have. 5.1 is enough speakers for me, thanks. And not just me, but thousands of other people who chose DD! Those two arguments are not compelling enough to go and drop a few hundred bucks to upgrade. You'd have to be fairly ignorant to not understand that the difference between 2 channel and DD is tremendous compared to DD and 7.1 channel. We are left out in the dark, and considering DD/DTS are much better alternatives to the still supported Stereo and Monaural and Pro Logic, there is no reason to not support DD/DTS. Soundstorm/Xbox and now CMedia have shown that it's possible without performance issues. The product is there already so this is nothing more than laziness on the sound chip makers' part!

It's like saying the PC processor market is dying because they aren't making CPUs anymore to support my ancient Socket370 motherboard anymore.

Horrible analogy: My S-Video analogy still stands as it may be phased out soon in a few years, but currently it has a place in the market with TVs, whereas an old motherboard platform does not for gaming. New movies still support DD/DTS perfectly while new software will not run well at all on an outdated board.

My summary is this: Old/new standards are supported in the PC audio industry, middle ones are not. As usual, the market has much more of the middle and DD encoding existed in the past and does again now. These two facts alone (market penetration and previous existence) should have the product still around (compression, 360 be damned) There's no reason to not include it besides laziness as the newer standards work, including yours. You, borghe are a MINORITY of the market and are being supported, while the MAJORITY, arguably more important than you, are left out in the cold. And finally, we're both made irrelevant because CMedia and soon, Terratac have answered my call!

 

[borghe]

you know, you need to clear things up. I originally used the term audio quality, then you jumped down my back, and I corrected myself.. now I am using the EXACT TERM AS YOU HAVE TYPED IT IN THE TITLE, and you are still jumping down my back... :\

and you are arguing prevalence as quality here, which not not appropriate. You argue that because DD/DTS have such strong penetration that they are great. I am saying that a 5.1 discrete and 16/48 limit on DD make it FAR from great, and even 6.1 discrete on DTS is nothing spectacular though the ability to do 6.1 24/96 with DTS is certainly much better than the limitations of DD. However, both of them are still vERY limited when compared to say 24/96 and 16 channels out over discrete multichannel, especially in an instance (which have have glossed over yet again) of an API where you program in a truly directional fashion.

while I understand what you are saying regarding DD over a digital connection, the industry is moving ahead, though not necessarily in a 100% backwards compatible fashion. However I don't feel that diminishes the progress that it is making.

 

[Fantasmo]

Look, the industry (NOT SOUND QUALITY) sucks because they don't support an important, common standard. Until DVD is dead (at LEAST 2 or 3 years), DD and DTS will continue to be bought and used, PERIOD. The PC Audio market was ignoring that market completely; a market that has a life span of at least 2 or 3 years, probably more! That's a lot of years to completely ignore an existing market! There needs to be a transition, and because the product existed there's no reason for a transition to not occur! How can you argue with that?

DD/DTS is a huge leap over 2 channel audio.
BUT 7.1 does not provide enough over DD/DTS to warrant upgrading. It's simple, if I'm not compelled, others are not compelled! Go into someone's house who has a Home Theatre and tell them they need to upgrade their system because they have two less speakers, and a lower bitrate and see what they say. Then tell em to get an HDTV set, a progressive DVD player, a Blue-Ray player, HD-DVD, etc.

What you're saying is the market should lose 2-3 years of a perfectly good product because you want 7000 speakers and 9999kbps bitrate? What's wrong with you? I'd like to see how people react to dropping all SDTV signals in the US in favor of HD. By your admission, this is perfectly fine. Make everybody upgrade all their sets, it's the technological way, isn't it? I'm saying that type of thinking is ignorant. Who can afford to do it all and why should we? There should be a transition.

And I don't know what's wrong with your setup but my sounds transition from 1 speaker to the next, they don't just shut off a sound and switch to another speaker.

Btw - I'm attacking your perspective, not you, so please don't think I have anything personal against you

 

[borghe]

Look, the industry (NOT SOUND QUALITY) sucks because they don't support an important, common standard. Until DVD is dead (at LEAST 2 or 3 years), DD and DTS will continue to be bought and used, PERIOD. The PC Audio market was ignoring that market completely; a market that has a life span of at least 2 or 3 years, probably more! That's a lot of years to completely ignore an existing market! There needs to be a transition, and because the product existed there's no reason for a transition to not occur! How can you argue with that?

I am not arguing with that. The industry is. I'm just providing a logical perspective to that decision.

DD/DTS is a huge leap over 2 channel audio.
BUT 7.1 does not provide enough over DD/DTS to warrant upgrading.

I don't agree with this but I'll touch on that in a bit.

It's simple, if I'm not compelled, others are not compelled! Go into someone's house who has a Home Theatre and tell them they need to upgrade their system because they have two less speakers, and a lower bitrate and see what they say. Then tell em to get an HDTV set, a progressive DVD player, a Blue-Ray player, HD-DVD, etc.

except that obviously not enough people ARE upset about it because, well, the industry is doing it. The market almost always dictates the industry. The fact that manufacturers moved AWAY from DD encoding and not towards it should be indicative of something.

What you're saying is the market should lose 2-3 years of a perfectly good product because you want 7000 speakers and 9999kbps bitrate?

I don't get what you mean by lose 2-3 years? What about DVD players that don't have antenna outputs on the back? or newer HD DVRs that don't have antenna outputs on them?

I'd like to see how people react to dropping all SDTV signals in the US in favor of HD. By your admission, this is perfectly fine. Make everybody upgrade all their sets, it's the technological way, isn't it? I'm saying that type of thinking is ignorant. Who can afford to do it all and why should we? There should be a transition.

it will happen.. not in 2006 like they want, but it will happen before everyone has upgraded their sets. As for who can afford.. well, I've already pointed out that you can upgrade to multichannel inputs for $200.. it isn't going to break the bank of any computer gamer (who by default is used to spending money to upgrade). As for high end systems, well, they are only high end for a period of time. Hell even my Denon AVR3300 is lacking by todays standards. It certainly still sounds great, but I definitely can't call it high end anymore when you can get more features on a receiver costing only $400 these days.

And I don't know what's wrong with your setup but my sounds transition from 1 speaker to the next, they don't just shut off a sound and switch to another speaker.

this is an overly-simplistic point of view on how things work. The fact is that sound on a speaker is very different than sound in real life. the sound pressure that occurs from someone speaking 25 ft. off at 248° is in practice very different than the sound pressure that occurs from a sound positioned between two speakers trying to simulate the same thing. Of course this isn't a limitation of the speakers but of the recording. So the recording has to be mixed to accomodate this. Unfortunately when the recording is mixed the number of speakers HAS to be accounted for. Thus 7 speakers WILL improve sound over 5, 16 speakers WILL improve sound over 7, etc. The more you can offset the limitations of the recording the better.

But as crazy as you think I am being, where do you think things are from MY perspective when you are saying you would prefer comrpessed 5.1 channel sound in favor of 8 channel uncompressed sound? To use your HDTV analogy, it's like saying "filmed 1080i doesn't look that much better than filmed 480p so I don't see any reason to upgrade." while this may be fine from a standpoint of personal opinion and many others might agree with it, the technical advancement of 1080i over 480p is unquestionable, and in certain applications (live HD video) absolutely decimates 480p. If you are the audiophile you indicate you are, I guarantee if you listen to a PC game over 7.1 channel discrete output and then listen to the same game on the same receiver over 5.1 channel SoundStorm encoded 5.1, you would notice a diffference, especially if we were talking 24/96 DACs from 24/96 source material (which unfortunately doesn't exist yet AFAIK).

Btw - I'm attacking your perspective, not you, so please don't think I have anything personal against you

I take nothing personal on internet forums..

at this point I see you are uninterested in anything beyond agreeing with dropping Dolby 5.1 being a bad move. Unfortunately I don't agree. I have given you many examples on why things today are, at minimum potentially, better than Dolby 5.1 and you choose to ignore or believe them. That's fine, but I can't keep this going. I will leave you with that it certainly doesn't look like things are changing. Between more solutions now incorporating 7.1 and 8.1 audio and fewer solutions including realtime Dolby encoding, it is very obvious where the market is headed. It is certainly your perogative to complain about it, but at the end of the day you are still only left with two real solutions. Either stay with a SoundForce (and thus SocketA) board, or move on to a new system and either deal with stereo sound or get a new multichannel input receiver... it really doesn't look like you will have any other options.