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[krypt0nian]

are you retarded? why dont you reply to the point in my post jack ass?


when did i mention xray visors?

I replied just fine. Let me know when those dev's get back to you with your analog stick!
:lol

 

[shpankey]

The lack of an anologue stick was a huge oversight. I'll just wait a year, or so, for real DS games to come out before buying one.

My response to the original post would be pretty much be what ourumov
said.

*shrugs*

agreed

 

[Kabuki Waq]

I replied just fine. Let me know when those dev's get back to you with your analog stick!
:lol

i need the mega rolleyes icon. *sigh*

 

[krypt0nian]

i need the mega rolleyes icon. *sigh*

Notice how I didn't call you retarded or a jackass or anything else for not answering my post.

You can *rolleyes* and *sigh* until you get that stick, I guess.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Notice how I didn't call you retarded or a jackass or anything else for not answering my post.

Notice how i didnt act like a retard or a jackass and actually took your replies seriously and didnt reply with "And PM me when you get that x-ray visz. Seriously. "

 

[Panajev2001a]

I'll reiterate that I don't think the DS needs an analog thingamabob since it's not intended to be like a regular gaming system. GBA/PSP/GBMA fill that area. In that case, why have Super Mario 64 at all? I'm guessing they knew it would be suboptimal, but better than nothing. We all know Nintendo likes to rerelease the best of their old games as portables for big money. However, with PSP forcing handheld hardware to speed up and making the GBMA closer to GameCube than N64, ports of N64 games probably wouldn't fly unless they did a whole lot of improvement to it or sold it at a cheaper price. Would Super Mario 64 More Advance released in 2006 at 512x288 go over very well unless they greatly improved the models and textures? So the DS gives that outlet for a few N64 ports, even if they won't be controlled as perfectly as we'd like.

Would have you liked a Super Mario 64 re-make with same game-play, but better textures, models, frame-rate and effects ?

I would have, but I am a graphics whore .

 

[monkeyrun]

Would have you liked a Super Mario 64 re-make with same game-play, but better textures, models, frame-rate and effects ?

I would have, but I am a graphics whore .

well I wouldn't mind ... but I think I'd rather them put that effort on a new mario game.

 

[Deg]

Would have you liked a Super Mario 64 re-make with same game-play, but better textures, models, frame-rate and effects ?

I would have, but I am a graphics whore .

There are always things that could have been better.

PSP for example has bad battery life and requires a memory stick duo. Which are worser oversights than not having an analogue stick.

 

[krypt0nian]

Notice how i didnt act like a retard or a jackass and actually took your replies seriously and didnt reply with "And PM me when you get that x-ray visz. Seriously. "

Again, my point stands. You can call it retarded or whatever makes you feel better I guess. Complaining about something that is set in stone beyond the first product impressions is idiotic.

But please feel free to continue on - madness is its own reward I've heard.

 

[kaching]

...it reduces the level of abstraction between the player and game compared to traditional controls. EyToy does the same thing, so do microphones. Regardless how difficult you feel traditional game controls might be, plenty of people find them intimidating and complicated... that's why DS and EyeToy are such landmark products. They reduce that, reduce the layers of absraction... a good 50% of "gamers" never play anything more complicated than Bejeweled or Tetris. That's who these products are targeted at bringing in, in addition to thealready established console/handheld bases.

The level of abstraction is reduced because of the fact that most of the evidence (mostly anectdotal) cited for these alternate input devices is based on simpler games, generally minigames which are already easy to pick up and play. All the evidence I've seen of non-gamers taking to the DS has been based on their response to the simpler games or the Mario 64 DS minigames, etc. They're still just responding to games the likes of Bejeweled's and Tetris's, so there's no clear indication here that the method of interaction is instrumental as anything more than a attention-grabbing novelty to reacquaint "non-gamers" with the only kinds of game experiences that they were ever drawn to in the first place. I'd say this as much for Eyetoy and microphone-based interaction as I would the touchscreen on the DS.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Again, my point stands. You can call it retarded or whatever makes you feel better I guess. Complaining about something that is set in stone beyond the first product impressions is idiotic.

But please feel free to continue on - madness is its own reward I've heard.

So let me get this straight your complaining about people complaining?


and how is complaing about a released of a product idiotic? How else do you expect developers to know whats wrong?


answer me this: do you think the xbox controller would have been changed if no one complained?

 

[RoH]

Now I am not a Nintendo fan or a sony fan but I would take a touch sceen over a Nub any day. IMHO the nub and the touch pad do the same thing, but the touch pad can have many other uses.

 

[krypt0nian]

So let me get this straight your complaining about people complaining?


and how is complaing about a released of a product idiotic? How else do you expect developers to know whats wrong?


answer me this: do you think the xbox controller would have been changed if no one complained?

No one was complaining - check my original post on this and you won't see complaining. I answered Pana's thread query. Then you posted something about irony and I asked you to explain.

"I guess my view is that talking about it is meaningless as it doesn't have one.

There's a certain reality that you just need to deal with."

No one complained - sorry.

About the xbox controller - I'm sure people complaining to Microsoft had something to do with it - not whiners on msg boards. :lol

 

[Panajev2001a]

Now I am not a Nintendo fan or a sony fan but I would take a touch sceen over a Nub any day. IMHO the nub and the touch pad do the same thing, but the touch pad can have many other uses.

I am not asking people to choose between the two.

 

[Kobun Heat]

I kind of look at it the other way.

I don't think the DS needs an analog stick. Mario 64 needs an analog stick, yes. I'm convinced of that. I just don't think the DS needs games like Mario 64.

 

[GDGF]

The thought of an analog stick/nub doesn't anger me, but the thought of said analog stick/nub wearing out after a year of use and rendering my handheld useless does.

An analog stick is the first thing to break down on a controler, in my experience. An analog nub will be the first thing to break down on a PSP, in my opinion.

 

[jarrod]

The level of abstraction is reduced because of the fact that most of the evidence (mostly anectdotal) cited for these alternate input devices is based on simpler games, generally minigames which are already easy to pick up and play. All the evidence I've seen of non-gamers taking to the DS has been based on their response to the simpler games or the Mario 64 DS minigames, etc. They're still just responding to games the likes of Bejeweled's and Tetris's, so there's no clear indication here that the method of interaction is instrumental as anything more than a attention-grabbing novelty to reacquaint "non-gamers" with the only kinds of game experiences that they were ever drawn to in the first place.

Well, the anectdotal "evidence" I've heard concering Yoshi's Touch & Go or Pac-Pix seems to indicate the exact opposite. The main problem here seems to be the initial software selection more than hardware or market philosophies Nintendo's pushing. Granted software should be a part of that, but stuff is evidently on the way shortly.

 

[kaching]

Exact opposite of what?

 

[jarrod]

Exact opposite of what?

The idea you put forth that non-gamers are simply naturally attracted to the puzzle/minigames DS offers and the interface is really negligible. Or did I misread your intent?

 

[firex]

I don't know why it angers some people. It's probably the same thing that makes people turn into fanboy drones... in fact, since it's connected to a Nintendo product, the chances are highly likely*.

As far as seeing innovative uses for the touch screen... I can't think of a whole lot, although here are some things I'd love to see done with it:
a game where you'd do stuff like defuse bombs (a spy game?) or cross wires to steal cars (GTA of course) using the touch screen, or learn security keycodes and punch them in on a number pad that comes up below (which I know isn't all that innovative, but it'd be immersive I think). Stuff like that, where the touch screen is used for gameplay elements that you could do with traditional analog controls, but wouldn't quite have the same feeling. That's along with the more obvious stuff like point and click adventures, RTS and so on.

In a way, I could see the DS making good use of something like the Infinity Engine as well for some RPGs (although I personally wouldn't recommend it).

*Before I get labeled as a Nintendo hater, I'm not; I just hate the drones that worship everything Nintendo's done. But who doesn't hate total fanboys?

 

[RoH]

"Panajev2001a"

You may not be asking any one to choose between a Nub and Touchpad but I feel both Sony and Nintendo made that choice for every one who purchases their portable. But here is the kicker for me, maybe I am thinking about this the wrong way but I feel using the touch screen as an analog control is no different from using a nub. When I think about analog controls I have the PSX, XBOX or NGC style along stick controls pictured in my mind. The DS nor the PSP do not have true/classic analog stick controls to me, in both cases I’m just sliding my thumb around the surface of the device with no change in pitch or height. Both devices provide the same level of effectiveness when used for analog control. But I feel the touch screen can perform multiple functions while being used as an analog input device, this IMHO gives a touch screen the upper hand and removes the need for a Nub style input device.

By the way, if Sony or the Big N went with a classic/true analog input device I would take that over a nub or touch screen any day.

 

[kaching]

The idea you put forth that non-gamers are simply naturally attracted to the puzzle/minigames DS offers and the interface is really negligible. Or did I misread your intent?

No, and I get you now. Just wasn't sure which part you were referring to.

I would fine tune your read though to say that I'm referring to simple games, which is larger than just puzzle/minigames. Yoshi's Touch & Go and Pac Pix don't fall outside of that broader category.

 

[jarrod]

No, and I get you now. Just wasn't sure which part you were referring to.

I would fine tune your read though to say that I'm referring to simple games, which is larger than just puzzle/minigames.

Sure, but those were the only examples cited. "Simple games" has been Nintendo's mantra for a good 3 years though, and touch interface only seems to be one aspect of exploring that. Reducing abstraction is going to make things inherently more accessable to non-gamers, regardless of content.

Yoshi's Touch & Go and Pac Pix don't fall outside of that broader category.

That seems very open for debate. Yoshi in particular.

 

[kaching]

Went with those examples because they were what you originally cited. I assumed you would understand the scope since you established it in the response I originally quoted.

Yoshi and PacPix are games whose method of gameplay interaction naturally lend themselves best to the stylus control and so interactions that would be complex by other means are rendered simple. It's not that accessibility to games in general is rendered less abstract by touchscreen control. As with any input mechanism, different gameplay styles lend themselves to one input device more than any other and, as such, will be more intuitive using that device.

The test here would be to see if you could take all videogames created thus far and use just a touchscreen to render interaction with the majority of them less abstract than their original control mechanism. I don't think we can say that.

 

[monkeyrun]

that's why they made the touch screen portable, so developers could create other breeds of games.

You don't just take a platformer and expect to transform it to using a touch screen control. Of course there are some naturals like FPS and some puzzle games, but a majority of console games are not made FOR touch screen.

 

[Drensch]

If this isn't a joke thread, where is this angry vocal constituency against analog control?

 

[jarrod]

Went with those examples because they were what you originally cited. I assumed you would understand the scope since you established it in the response I originally quoted.

I didn't establish any emcompassing standard concerning "simple" games, I only referenced two classic puzzle games. You're somehow reading things I haven't set.

Yoshi and PacPix are games whose method of gameplay interaction naturally lend themselves best to the stylus control and so interactions that would be complex by other means are rendered simple.

Sure but both are really blazing new ground for commercial games in terms of implemetation and mechanics, designed around touch interface rather than being established ideas retrofitted into it (like Mario 64 or Ridge Racer). These aren't exactly "simple" games in line with Bejeweled or Tetris either.

It's not that accessibility to games in general is rendered less abstract by touchscreen control. As with any input mechanism, different gameplay styles lend themselves to one input device more than any other and, as such, will be more intuitive using that device.

I agree games need be designed around touch interface. That's why people harping about an analog are missing the point, though it's understandable given Nintendo's marquee title release. Don't worry though, that'll change soon.

The test here would be to see if you could take all videogames created thus far and use just a touchscreen to render interaction with the majority of them less abstract than their original control mechanism. I don't think we can say that.

I think you've misread my intentions. I'm not saying touch interface is inherently more acessable for every game over console/handheld standard controls, I'm saying it's inherently more accessable for non-gamers.

Look at Yoshi's Island versus Yoshi's Touch & Go for a loose example. Island not only requires excellent timing and understanding of the mechanics, but also complex pad memorization. Yoshi's Touch & Go seems to hinge on a similar understanding of mechanics and timing, but the direct interface allows one to immediately come to grips with control aspects. A non-gamer can immediately start playing Touch & Go with a basic understanding of the objectives, but Island presents a much more intimidating proposal due to the control intricacies alone. A level of abstraction is removed here with DS, it really is a fundamental shift.

 

[kaching]

I think you've misread my intentions. I'm not saying touch interface is inherently more acessable for every game over console/handheld standard controls, I'm saying it's inherently more accessable for non-gamers.

I realize that and I don't agree. I'm saying level of abstraction is entirely based on the choice of game design, since all of the methods of game input we have now are equally abstract in their dislocation of the player from the action. Each input method offers its own ways to make the execution of specific kinds of actions easier but they never bridge that fundamental gap.

How do you take the original Pac Man and make it any less abstract than it is now, other than with fully immersive VR that directly casts the player as Pac Man himself? Pac Pix certainly isn't it. Even if you enable the original Pac Man with touchscreen control instead of joystick, sit a non-gamer down with either version of the game with no instructions, tutorial or foreknowledge of the game and I don't think you'll find that there's a greater level of accessibility here.

 

[Odnetnin]

I realize that and I don't agree. I'm saying level of abstraction is entirely based on the choice of game design, since all of the methods of game input we have now are equally abstract in their dislocation of the player from the action. Each input method offers its own ways to make the execution of specific kinds of actions easier but they never bridge that fundamental gap.

How do you take the original Pac Man and make it any less abstract than it is now, other than with fully immersive VR that directly casts the player as Pac Man himself? Pac Pix certainly isn't it. Even if you enable the original Pac Man with touchscreen control instead of joystick, sit a non-gamer down with either version of the game with no instructions, tutorial or foreknowledge of the game and I don't think you'll find that there's a greater level of accessibility here.

well, you picked a good example for your argument... but pacman as you've mentioned as as distillate as it gets. However, its pick up and playability is now surplanted with its abject simplicity - even non gamers have greater expectations on what is fun. There are reasons why we no longer see galaga type / pac man / simple simple games anymore. The purpose of the DS is to give non gamers that added incentive to game. Poking with a stylus/drawing lines...etc are all things that appeal and can grab the attention of someone who doesn't game. Even if all Nintendo does release at a later stage, is crossword puzzle/puzzles on the DS there will still be a market. There is a reason why crossword mags sell (simple to play, get into). Even a spot the difference title will be good fun - diversionary.

for what its worth - control issue wise; i could not get into SSX because of the hundred and one button combos you have to press/memorise.

 

[Socreges]

One or two instances would justify as people, but that's nitpicking. If you want to change the focus of this thread to "I do not believe people used this argument in DS vs PSPS threads" then starta new thread.

Well, ancient languages need a revision once in a while .

Seriously, I think that instead of being so anal on my english you could think about the message in the posts I have made.

I don't care to. The masturbatory shit-flinging between DS and PSP fanboys is something I'd rather not participate in. I only replied to address the topic of this thread, which I found puzzling. The second one, the one where you demonstrated how you can't write properly, was just as baffling and I wished to isolate it. Nothing more.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I kind of look at it the other way.

I don't think the DS needs an analog stick. Mario 64 needs an analog stick, yes. I'm convinced of that. I just don't think the DS needs games like Mario 64.

Precisely. It's just stuck with it because it's impossible to do on GBA, too much extra work on GBMA (where psychics say we may have a portable Sunshine), and obviously not stopping in on PSP in the meantime.

 

[ElyrionX]

It's the same reason why some people get upset when some of us argue for the inclusion of the OPTION to use a dual-analog setup in Metorid Prime 2.

 

[Panajev2001a]

The second one, the one where you demonstrated how you can't write properly, was just as baffling and I wished to isolate it. Nothing more.

Excuse me for not making sure my posts are like Shakespearian works, I am glad you got what was important out of this thread... the form of my posts rather than their substance.

Still, I have not mastered English yet to the point of being as eloquent as I would want to be, but generally in the past few years I have met only one person in these forums that has so vocally complained about my writing as being so bad to the point of making my argument impossible to understand and debate (besides some technical heavvy threads, but that is a different can of worms)... you.

 

[Amir0x]

Excuse me for not making sure my posts are like Shakespearian works, I am glad you got what was important out of this thread... the form of my posts rather than their substance.

Still, I have not mastered English yet to the point of being as eloquent as I would want to be, but generally in the past few years I have met one person only in these forums that has complained about my writing as being so bad to the point of making my argument impossible to understand and debate (besides some technical heavvy threads, but that is a different can of worms)... you.

Your tech-heavy posts are extremely informative. I love them and you should make more of them.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Your tech-heavy posts are extremely informative. I love them and you should make more of them.

Thank you, I am glad if I can be of some help.

 

[Amir0x]

Thank you, I am glad if I can be of some help.

btw you should update the PSP in your avatar. That prototype PSP was ugly

 

[Shogmaster]

ourumov said exactly what's on my mind, but most of you already knew that.

DS should have been aborted altogether, and let PSP fight it out with $80 GBA SP, then about 6~9 months after PSP hit US, Nintedo should have sprung a $100 GBA2 that had something like like MBX or GoForce 3D 4500 in it with a QVGA screen AND A GODDAMN ANALOG STICK!

If you think about it, not having luanched DS, Sony probably would have launched PSP closer to $300. Then if Ninny could have launched GBA2 @150, then lower the unit to half of whatever Sony lowered PSP to to retaliate.

GBA2 with 3.5" 320x240 16 bit screen, PVR MBX or nVidia GoForce 3D 4500, anlaog stick, backwards compatable with GBA, and double the battery life and half the price of PSP would have kicked PSP's ass, and gotten me to line up for it at launch.

 

[kaching]

well, you picked a good example for your argument... but pacman as you've mentioned as as distillate as it gets.

That's the point. If the claim is that touchscreen control can reduce the level of abstraction to a point that makes things accessible to nongamers - beyond what traditional videogame controls can achieve - then even a game concept as distillate as this should yield dividends in that regard.

However, its pick up and playability is now surplanted with its abject simplicity - even non gamers have greater expectations on what is fun. There are reasons why we no longer see galaga type / pac man / simple simple games anymore. The purpose of the DS is to give non gamers that added incentive to game.

The design of the DS may be one intended as an interesting attractor that may stand out for non-gamers but what's going to keep them there is a concerted effort on the part of game design that has little to do with the hardware itself - finding that sweet spot of consistently compelling entertainment without relying on heavily abstracted game interactions. This can be done with any existing game hardware, assuming this nascent population of gamers-to-be truly exists and isn't just a population which truly has nothing more than a passing interest in this pastime.

for what its worth - control issue wise; i could not get into SSX because of the hundred and one button combos you have to press/memorise.

And how would you do this any less abstractly on a touchscreen?

 

[jarrod]

I realize that and I don't agree. I'm saying level of abstraction is entirely based on the choice of game design, since all of the methods of game input we have now are equally abstract in their dislocation of the player from the action. Each input method offers its own ways to make the execution of specific kinds of actions easier but they never bridge that fundamental gap.

Well, we'll just have to disagree then. I'd argue that by virtue of direct interface alone, the touch screen is reducing abstraction over pad coded input. It's rather simple actually, game design can obviously play into it, but game design isn't even really needed for consideration here, touch screen is just more "direct" and less "coded". It's inherently simpler to grasp by design.

Pac Pix certainly isn't it.

Bit of a cheap shot, as Pac-Pix was never intended to be "it" either. Certianly you recognize that?

 

[Future]

-----------------
I agree games need be designed around touch interface. That's why people harping about an analog are missing the point, though it's understandable given Nintendo's marquee title release. Don't worry though, that'll change soon.
-----------------

But the issue is that it's not going to stop other devs from releasing games on it that would benefit having an analogue stick. It's almost like the GBA and the lack of 2 extra face buttons. Sure games can be designed around this, and it never really turned out to be a huge deal in the end, but it limits the amount of games that can successfully be brought to it from devs used to having this extra input for their franchises or ports.

Lack of analogue stick is not going to prevent Nintendo from releasing games like Mario Kart and N64 ports. It's not going to prevent devs from making 3rd person games that control arguably best with an analogue stick. It's going to be missed in the long run.

But is it going to be a huge deal? Hell no. Only to gamers like us that want that precision of control will beef about it. The D-pad is still the most recognizable input for most people, and anything that involves the touch screen is about as simplistic and easy as it gets control wise. And if analogue control IS required, it can be done in some sense. Just like the touch pad on a laptop....it does the job. Maybe not perfectly, but probably good enough to satisfy most people

 

[kaching]

It wasn't intended as a cheap shot. Just supports my point. The game design and interaction is actually more abstract than it's progenitor so they're clearly not trying to improve accessibility for the non-gamer that way, if that's even their goal.

 

[jarrod]

It wasn't intended as a cheap shot.

Certianly, you can see how it might come off that way though?

Just supports my point. The game design and interaction is actually more abstract than it's progenitor so they're clearly not trying to improve accessibility for the non-gamer that way, if that's even their goal.

Problem being, the comparison is flawed as Pac-Man really isn't the progenitor to Pac-Pix in terms of game design. Pac-Pix is something all together different that simply borrows the brand.

 

[kaching]

I can see how it could be forced to seem like it came off that way, so I'll just wish you Happy Holidays and all the best to you and your family rather than spiral further into a confrontation about something that was already clarified.

As for PacPix, it inherits more than just brand.