Why Hasn't Geek Culture Figured Out They Won?

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Geek culture being more popular = more friends to talk to about geek stuff with.

I wouldn't have been able to casually strike up a conversation about Dan Slott a decade ago, that's for sure. And with so many people for that matter.

There's two types of geeks:

- Geeks who have no problem dealing with non-geeks.
- Geeks who think non-geeks are "proles", or some other pretentious word.
 
The ultimate irony of geek hate: if geeks believe the stuff they've been into all this time is really that cool, they should be happy when more people experience it, to whatever degree.

Geeks have this problem where they can take the thing they see themselves as wardens of and strangle it to death with a grip around its throat.

We talking about geeks now or fanboys?

Because fanboys will ruin ANYTHING!
 
If geek means what I think it means in this context, then geeks have always had a chip on their shoulder. High school man.
 
First things first. Sexism is a real problem in "geek culture" and I think it's the main culprit to a lot of these types of reactions. The way girls are perceived by a lot of people in these circles is disgusting and has no excuse.

That said, I think the notion that "geeks won" is wrong. Mainstream accepting comic book movies (not comic books itself) is not winning.

The way "geeks" enjoy their entertainment is very different of how the mainstream does it. Geeks like to discuss the most small things and take things very seriously. It's just how we do it and I know a lot of people here identify with that I'm sure.

The problem comes when the mainstream starts watching and liking these kinds of things but they don't do it the same way and it can be alienating. It's not like everyone is a geek now. It's not really winning because you are still alienated from the "normal" people because you don't like things the same way they do, even if you do watch the same movies. You are still an outcast in a different way.

Now, just to clarify, I don't think this is what is happening here. And I'm not justifying the disgusting sexism that exists. I'm just talking about the notion of geeks being accepted and "winning".
 
Geeks have always been whiny and fickle over tiny things. The fact that there is an over saturation of 'geeky' media gives them even more chance to whine.

I think that's partially true—we certainly pick apart even the things we love.

But I think another issue now as "geek culture" spreads is we have to acknowledge there are geeks out there who are jerks, people passionate about the same stuff as you who are racists or think saying sexist stuff is fine.

Geek culture is by its very nature very inclusive, because hey, back in the day nerds had to band together. But that inclusive nature means that I think as a whole people are very wary of playing the arbiter of status and kicking people out. And maybe the solution isn't trying to shame and drum out people like the fighting video game guy who was taunting his female opponent, or people who jump on critical reviews and use invective and muck rather than real argument, but you certainly can't avoid it.

There's also, as I think people were touching in the concurrent sci-fi/fantasy representation thread, a widening of the traditional demographic, and I think some people feel threatened by that in the same way a hipster feels his band has "sold out" if they get too big. It's a very understandable apprehension warped into something irrational.

First things first. Sexism is a real problem in "geek culture" and I think it's the main culprit to a lot of these types of reactions. The way girls are perceived by a lot of people in these circles is disgusting and has no excuse.

That said, I think the notion that "geeks won" is wrong. Mainstream accepting comic book movies (not comic books itself) is not winning.

The way "geeks" enjoy their entertainment is very different of how the mainstream does it. Geeks like to discuss the most small things and take things very seriously. It's just how we do it and I know a lot of people here identify with that I'm sure.

The problem comes when the mainstream starts watching and liking these kinds of things but they don't do it the same way and it can be alienating. It's not like everyone is a geek now. It's not really winning because you are still alienated from the "normal" people because you don't like things the same way they do, even if you do watch the same movies. You are still an outcast in a different way.

Now, just to clarify, I don't think this is what is happening here. And I'm not justifying the disgusting sexism that exists. I'm just talking about the notion of geeks being accepted and "winning".

I think this is a good point too. It's not like geeks and nerds "took over". They just became a valuable market segment.
 
You can be a dominant cultural force while still feeling victimized. Another example would be certain subsets of Christians who think they are being persecuted in a country whose population is majority Christian.

Victim complex can be powerful.
 
Geek culture is extremely inclusionary. You have to prove your worth and if you criticize or don't fit into the mold you are ostracized. I think it's toxic.
 
Sticking with the forlorn HS table example for now. For someone to concede that attractive women have the same tastes as them and still don't find them desirable is an ego blow that I don't think many can handle. It requires a bit of introspection that conflicts with the common narrative that "Women are shallow bitches who only like muscles and cars and money. That's why I'm single."

Some guys are just straight up assholes, and that comes in every walk of life, not just traditional geek culture. Sports fans, weightlifting enthusiasts, and racing fans can be just as bad, sometimes worse. I don't think anyone can argue that misogyny is exclusive to geek culture, only that the reasoning behind it can be unique.
 
Geek culture is extremely inclusionary. You have to prove your worth and if you criticize or don't fit into the mold you are ostracized. I think it's toxic.

It's interesting you argue the exact opposite of what I do, but in a way I think we're both right. There's some level of social gaming going on where your level of arcana knowledge raises your prestige, depending on what geek circles you inhabit.

Read this earlier today, fantastic read and a much needed highlight.

I adore Greg Rucka's response to a fake geek girl t shirt

a7TQZ2u.jpg

I can't really support this guy. Yeah, your daughter shouldn't be told she doesn't belong because of non-existent reasons beyond gender, but the "mouthbreather" and "piteous appendage" not only come off as 'I'm unable to talk about stuff rationally and this is just invective', but it also ignores the fact that it's not just "mouthbreathers" that are at fault here. It's a societal responsibility we have, and there are plenty of good people who unwittingly or no cause some of these issues.
 
Sticking with the forlorn HS table example for now. For someone to concede that attractive women have the same tastes as them and still don't find them desirable is an ego blow that I don't think many can handle. It requires a bit of introspection that conflicts with the common narrative that "Women are shallow bitches who only like muscles and cars and money. That's why I'm single."

Some guys are just straight up assholes, and that comes in every walk of life, not just traditional geek culture. Sports fans, weightlifting enthusiasts, and racing fans can be just as bad, sometimes worse. I don't think anyone can argue that misogyny is exclusive to geek culture, only that the reasoning behind it can be unique.

This a good point.

I think a lot of geeks use the "I like geek things and that's why girls don't like me" as an excuse probably more than other cultures and that why is amplified in these circles.
 
It's interesting you argue the exact opposite of what I do, but in a way I think we're both right. There's some level of social gaming going on where your level of arcana knowledge raises your prestige, depending on what geek circles you inhabit.
True. Gaming, pop and geek culture has melded but to get into the industry or accepted as knowledgeable you have to fit in which makes for the diversity problems which are very problematic.
 
If by geek culture (EDIT for clarification: I mean those interested in comic-book movie adaptations, falling in line with the context used in the article) they mean pop culture, then sure. They're the same thing nowadays. Feeling like you "own" it is silly because it's basically everywhere.

Labels are dumb and the internet is full of dicks. News at 11.
 
*male geeks.

A lot of people seem to think that only men can be into these things. That's not true. Perhaps historically it was socialized to be a "boy's club," but yay feminism, now it's no longer like that, so please stop the faulty logic (not you, a general plea).


If socialization is the main reason females weren't interested in "geeky" stuff, it follows that when socialization changes, females will now be into geeky stuff.

Otherwise, to deny this is to say that "geeky" stuff is inherently a male thing... and I have no idea why anyone would think that.

I didn't use the term "male geeks" because he was talking about men therefore it was implicit.

I agree with what you said and I wasn't implying otherwise or did I say anything of that nature.
 
I came to share that Greg Rucka link, because Rucka kicks ass, and I get the same burn when I see geeksters drawing imaginary lines between the "true geeks" and the "posers."

Anyone is welcome to join the geek parade. Grab yourself a dorky t-shirt, get obsessed about a cartoon or a game or an action figure, and come on along.
 
I disagree with the idea that this means we should just shut up and say nothing about it.

We are acknowledging it... and then calling it out for the shitty, ignorant, asshole thing it is.


If someone is oblivious, then they will learn.

If someone is willfully ignorant, then they are an asshole.


This is shitty behavior and we are bringing it to light.

You should really read posts in full.
 
I came to share that Greg Rucka link, because Rucka kicks ass, and I get the same burn when I see geeksters drawing imaginary lines between the "true geeks" and the "posers."

Anyone is welcome to join the geek parade. Grab yourself a dorky t-shirt, get obsessed about a cartoon or a game or an action figure, and come on along.

I agree with you and I'm sad Zeliard killed you.
 
I have been fighting against the 'fake geek girl' shit my entire life. Being marginally attractive AND into video games, comics and fandom apparently means I just do it for the attention, or I jumped on the bandwagon to 'fit in'. Which is fucking annoying. Never mind that I was playing Magic the Gathering back in 94' for gods sake.

It also makes me insanely protective of other marginally attractive geek girls that get shit on for being 'fake'. Like Felica Day. Yeah, she's popular now, but I've been a fan of hers forever and no, she's not fake. She got into acting with the express purpose to meet Joss Whedon. When Buffy was airing. When Dollhouse was failing, she went behind the studios back to help create an ARG (that I co-ran) to try and drum up interest in the show. She created the Guild because she was passionate about gaming, not because she was wanted attention. She wanted to draw attention to gaming, sure.

It just annoys the ever loving fuck out of me that girls in gaming or geeky hobbies have to CONSTANTLY defend against accusations of being fake. Especially if they aren't the stereotype of 'ugly overweight' that people seem to have painted geek girls into.
 
I have been fighting against the 'fake geek girl' shit my entire life. Being marginally attractive AND into video games, comics and fandom apparently means I just do it for the attention, or I jumped on the bandwagon to 'fit in'. Which is fucking annoying. Never mind that I was playing Magic the Gathering back in 94' for gods sake.

It also makes me insanely protective of other marginally attractive geek girls that get shit on for being 'fake'. Like Felica Day. Yeah, she's popular now, but I've been a fan of hers forever and no, she's not fake. She got into acting with the express purpose to meet Joss Whedon. When Buffy was airing. When Dollhouse was failing, she went behind the studios back to help create an ARG (that I co-ran) to try and drum up interest in the show. She created the Guild because she was passionate about gaming, not because she was wanted attention. She wanted to draw attention to gaming, sure.

It just annoys the ever loving fuck out of me that girls in gaming or feeling hobbies have to CONSTANTLY defend against accusations of being fake. Especially if they aren't the stereotype of 'ugly overweight' that people seem to have painted geek girls into.

You're the one that's cool Fiction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFhgupR565Q

I started MtG around Mirage, 5th edition.
 
That's what I was drawing attention, too.


The fact is that a lot of times, in this narrative, it's implicit that geeks = men. That's the sexism that women have to face. That the geek culture is inherently accepted to be for men.

Part of the reason many women hesitate is because of the fear that they won't be accepted.

That wasn't the case here. It wasn't implicit that geek meant a "male geek" because of misogyny but because the post I was referring too was talking about male reactions. I used in the context of male geeks because it made sense in the conversation not because of a cultural relation.
 
Geek culture is extremely inclusionary. You have to prove your worth and if you criticize or don't fit into the mold you are ostracized. I think it's toxic.

I think you can say that for most exclusionary groups. Fraternities, club teams, and even anime clubs.

You could say fanboy is the omega evolution of the geek.

I wouldn't necessarily call a fanboy a geek. The terms aren't mutually exclusive. A geek can certainly be a fanboy but a fanboy can be a geek or a jock or a tomboy or w/e disambiguation still exists in HS. Ask the people in NY about fanboydom and they'll talk about baseball or basketball whatever sport is hot right now.
 
Meh, I actually do think that assuming something is implicitly for one gender is sexist, and I do think that the fact that it refers to "male reactions" IS sexist.

I'm not sure if you know what I mean by that, but I am just saying the fact that it is about "male" reaction is, inherently, sexist.

He was talking about how those men perceived women. That's a male reaction. How is that statement sexist?

I used the term geek referring to those male geeks he was talking about. It was implicit in the dialogue. Of course if you take it out of the context you can say it was sexism, but there is a context behind it.

I'm not sure you get what I mean. I'm not saying it's implicit for one genre. I'm saying it is implicit what I was referring to in that exchange.
 
The ultimate irony of geek hate: if geeks believe the stuff they've been into all this time is really that cool, they should be happy when more people experience it, to whatever degree.

Geeks have this problem where they can take the thing they see themselves as wardens of and strangle it to death with a grip around its throat.

Kinda, yeah. Though a lot of it, in my experience, also stems from the idea that if "they" get into what "I" like and "they" become better than "me" at said things, what will become of "me"?

And then the sudden realization that the fact that you liked comic books and video games never really mattered and your social awkwardness was all about you the whole time, not the things you liked, which, for some people, causes them to double down on the whole deal because "the problem couldn't have been me all along could it? COULD IT? No...I'm not crazy. THEY'RE THE ONES WHO ARE CRAZY!!!"

Short sighteness, tunnel vision, the shit we have and are while young.

::Shrugs::

The point was never to win, but to fight.

Punk never died. It just changed.
 
Because, I thought his whole dialogue was sexist since it implied that it's about males versus females, rather than geeks versus non-geeks. So yes, the fact that it was implicit in that exchange, to me, is an example of sexism.

I think I am being nitpicky at this point, and I do understand what you are saying. I am arguing that the entire original exchange was sexist.

What I said or what he said?

I wasn't talking about males vs females. I was talking about how some males react to females and speculating on why that happened. This is a reality that happens and talking about that reality isn't sexist.

Talking about how some males react to females isn't sexist. It's a thing that happens and we were discussing it. How come discussing sexist behaviour is sexist in itself?
 
Ah, okay, my bad I get what is going on. I wasn't implying that you were being sexist! Sorry if you thought that's what I meant.

I was pointing out that situation "males reacting to females" is sexist, because it wasn't framed as "males versus females," it was framed as "geeks versus females." (originally). The fact that it automatically translated to "males versus females" would indicate the belief that geeks = males, which is a sexist behavior in that it assumes the geek culture is for guys.

Does that make more sense?

Ah okay. I get what you are saying and yes, that would've been sexist.

But he was talking about man in general so when I said geek I was specifying the type of man I was talking.

I get why you would thing the question was framed that way but I didn't mean it like that.
 
The ultimate irony of geek hate: if geeks believe the stuff they've been into all this time is really that cool, they should be happy when more people experience it, to whatever degree.

Geeks have this problem where they can take the thing they see themselves as wardens of and strangle it to death with a grip around its throat.

A lot of geeks have internalized the various forms of, hmm. abuse they'd taken over the years, turning into their own insular culture.
 
The ultimate irony of geek hate: if geeks believe the stuff they've been into all this time is really that cool, they should be happy when more people experience it, to whatever degree.

Geeks have this problem where they can take the thing they see themselves as wardens of and strangle it to death with a grip around its throat.

Apart from retro gaming, I am not really vested in geek culture, but I can understand why many of the original niche find this newfangled mainstream embrace of it worrisome. Many times, things with a niche following tend to blow up, and then get used and abused and watered down and finally spit out by the corporatist, capitalist grinder, and then turn into a laughing stock. Unfortunately, sometimes the OGs take their anxiety over this out on the newfangled fanbase.

Though the mysogyny isn't just a geek culture thing... plenty of times I've seen that shit happen in the DJing/electronic music scene - "she can't mix for shit... she only gets booked because she's attractive"... sigh.
 
If you believe having won is becoming a part of the Hollywood entertainment industry, another dumb and flavorless piece of crappy commodity then yes, geek culture has won. For fifteen years at least now.
 
If you believe having won is becoming a part of the Hollywood entertainment industry, another dumb and flavorless piece of crappy commodity then yes, geek culture has won. For fifteen years at least now.

That's sort of the other side of it too.

In the eyes of the militantly geeky, Geeks didn't "win", they had what they liked "stolen" away, changed, then rereleased for people who never cared to like.

I mean honestly, even here, how much shit does COD and Madden get for being "the bro game"?
 
Has geek culture really won, or has it been co-opted and exploited by the masses? We've come a long way since Public Enemy hit the airwaves, and where is "black culture" right now? Oh, right.

ScreenShot2014-01-01at83306PM.png


Yay, Star Trek, Star Wars, and Marvel are the biggest things out there, but are they really "geek culture?"

^ its not that the geeks won its that their culture has been co-opted by the mainstream. Nerd culture is in chic right now so your going to get the same assholes who follow every other mainstream thing pontificating about about comic book movies.
 
The whole casual v hardcore thing that happened in the early days of the Wii, and continued with iOS, is so fucking cringeworthy.

Ironically half the people complaining were probably part of the first blue ocean wave introduced by the PlayStation.
 
Geek pretty much refers to people obsessed with certain hobbies. Sometimes people get so dangerously emotionally attached to some 'geek' stuff that whenever they see someone criticise it they go fucking bonkers. Hell we see it on GAF review threads all the time. This is probably the worst offender I've seen:
Uncharted 3 Review Thread

The same thing happened on the Avengers rotten tomatoes page and it was fucking disgusting. Its always the female reviewers who get disproportionately attacked.

Read this earlier today, fantastic read and a much needed highlight.

I adore Greg Rucka's response to a fake geek girl t shirt

a7TQZ2u.jpg

Holy shit this is the best thing I've read on the internet in weeks
 
"Hello, I'm Chris Hardwick, thank you for coming to San Diego Comic-Con, I'm the moderator of today's panel: "We Won! Why Geeks are Awesome and You Shouldn't Be a Dick." With me are guests The Mythbusters, Wil Wheaton, Felicia Day, and Kevin Smith. Now, before we start, you're probably like "That shirt you're wearing with the illustration by the Penny Arcade guys is pretty damn slick, where can I get that?" Well, we'll be selling some at the Geek & Sundry merch table after the panel, but if you get in line to ask a question - and by ask a question I mean make a fawning statement about our awesomeness to raucous applause - you'll get a free shirt. But you don't get a shirt if you're a dick."

And Alan Moore looks on in hatred.
 
^ its not that the geeks won its that their culture has been co-opted by the mainstream. Nerd culture is in chic right now so your going to get the same assholes who follow every other mainstream thing pontificating about about comic book movies.

No, the point of the article is that the mainstream writers/commenters are actually more accepting and more open, and often have something insightful to say, and that the long-standing members of "nerd culture" are being the assholes in increasing numbers.

Basically, Geeks reclaimed the word geek from negativity, and as such the culture grew, spread, and was accepted on a much wider basis than before. And now there are those who don't like the idea of that happening, who are reclaiming the word Geek back into the negative, and in doing so are shifting the term "Geek" into "someone who is into pop-culture who is shortsighted, sexist, homophobic, and angry about the concept of change in general"

"Geek Culture" didn't get co-opted by anyone that wasn't already providing Geeks their culture in the first place. Punks made their own music. Same with Hip-Hop. They made their own art out of what they had. But being a geek is absolutely defined by buying something some larger company has been selling you. It's almost impossible to be a geek without being tied up in the consuming of mass-produced product of one sort or another, be it comics, or TV shows, or movies, or video games, etc. etc.

So railing against "the mainstream" will always ring false to some extent because of that.

And then the sudden realization that the fact that you liked comic books and video games never really mattered and your social awkwardness was all about you the whole time, not the things you liked, which, for some people, causes them to double down on the whole deal because "the problem couldn't have been me all along could it? COULD IT? No...I'm not crazy. THEY'RE THE ONES WHO ARE CRAZY!!!"

Short sighteness, tunnel vision, the shit we have and are while young.

::Shrugs::

There we go.
 
I assume "geek culture" refers to things like technology, comics, videogames, ect? I think its more a case of people who love "a thing" are extremely defensive of it, it doesn't matter what the thing is or who is saying it. Whether its geek, pop, political, sports, or any other form of sub culture there are rabid and shitty people who cannot accept a dissenting opinion about it.
 
I have been fighting against the 'fake geek girl' shit my entire life. Being marginally attractive AND into video games, comics and fandom apparently means I just do it for the attention, or I jumped on the bandwagon to 'fit in'. Which is fucking annoying. Never mind that I was playing Magic the Gathering back in 94' for gods sake.

It also makes me insanely protective of other marginally attractive geek girls that get shit on for being 'fake'. Like Felica Day. Yeah, she's popular now, but I've been a fan of hers forever and no, she's not fake. She got into acting with the express purpose to meet Joss Whedon. When Buffy was airing. When Dollhouse was failing, she went behind the studios back to help create an ARG (that I co-ran) to try and drum up interest in the show. She created the Guild because she was passionate about gaming, not because she was wanted attention. She wanted to draw attention to gaming, sure.

It just annoys the ever loving fuck out of me that girls in gaming or geeky hobbies have to CONSTANTLY defend against accusations of being fake. Especially if they aren't the stereotype of 'ugly overweight' that people seem to have painted geek girls into.

I remember having to constantly remind some of the dumbasses on here whenever there was a thread centered around Felicia -- that naturally devolved into fake geek girl nonsense -- having to come in and be like, "uh, her favourite game is planescape Torment, she has more 'cred' than probably half of you do."
 
Read the review that got these people into a tizzy. Was fine! Nothing insulting, just a good review that highlights that maybe one-liner jokes can't save a typical action blockbuster. Of course, going to see it tomorrow to form my own opinion but there's nothing unreasonable in that review.
 
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