You don't colonize people at gun point who are your equals.
To be clear, I think China has plenty to offer to the West in terms of culture and entertainment. The problem in my opinion is westerners not open up the west's world view.
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Why Is China So Uncool?
- Thread starter Blablurn
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You don't colonize people at gun point who are your equals.
To be clear, I think China has plenty to offer to the West in terms of culture and entertainment. The problem in my opinion is westerners not open up the west's world view.
In regards to Korean success versus China, the biggest difference I think here is sex. Both countries fabricate their pop stars, but China doesn't push the sex appeal. Korea is odd because they don't have porn so a lot of Japanese soft power comes through porn exported to China and Korea.
Straight Edge
Member
Could you imagine a Chinese political punk band?
Between purges and famines, Mao's regime killed tens of millions of people. That's a lot of dead parents and grandparents. If art and public speech wasn't regulated, I'm sure there would be more than enough subject matter for a Chinese version of politicized punk or hip hop.
I don't think that anyone is claiming that China is North Korea in terms of public repression, but they certainly don't have a free flow of speech and ideals either. At least not at the larger commercial level. I have zero clue what underground culture and art is like in China.
One of the cornerstones of Hollywood's success was America's as a destination for artists as Europe fell into revolution and war in the early part of the 20th century. Think of all the German directors, and all the Eastern European engineers who contributed to the spread of American culture through their inventions. Tesla, Sarnoff, etc...
In terms of pop culture, I imagine European colonialism/imperialism around the world has played a part in the spread and still enduring popularity of European and then subsequently American culture.
As for why Japanese cultural exports are more successful than Chinese, probably the same reasons which account for Hong Kong's success vs the mainland (political values and economic prosperity which makes them a closer fit to the western world).
As for why Japanese cultural exports are more successful than Chinese, probably the same reasons which account for Hong Kong's success vs the mainland (political values and economic prosperity which makes them a closer fit to the western world).
It's funny because this would make China cooler to me at the very least, lol. Japan loses automatically because they have anime, which is worth 1000 negative cool points. China has superb food and superb martial arts movies! They are pretty freaking cool, I'd say.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
It's kind of an interesting case. Before the 18th-19th century Europeans had a respect/fear of China whom they seen as being more polite and civilized than their selves and of course China was where the upper class europeans got their Fine China, Teas, Silk among other things. But the failing of the Qing Dynasty and the degradation in causes in no small part to the Opium War changed the West Opinion on China whom were now considered uncivilized and barbaric. The west at that time certainly seen Confucius and Laozi as important figures and their works were getting translated to the west but over the century especially starting in the 20th they were still seen as inferiors (And the reason for Qing China's downfall in some cases) to the great Western Thinkers like Aristotle and Plato. Now in Academia this is changing and thinkers like Confucius are getting relooked at but their is no doubt until very late 20th century they were still looked down up even though they were recognized.
Hari Seldon
Member
NWA is just an example of a long, long line of counter culture anti-establishment that is simply not possible in China. As long as "Only Approved Art Allowed" continues they will be culturally irrelevant. It is a shame too, because if any country has suffered for its art it is definitely China between the imperialism and the butcher Mao. I would love to see what their cultural output would be if they had free speech.
Gully State
Member
It's amazing to think how much of a decline China went from being at the top as a global power in Ming to completely imploding during Qing dynasty.
bunbun777
Member
Completely ignorant on China but I could've sworn just a short time ago they got a lot of flak for stating that the environment was taking a backseat to their growth, well that everything actually was secondary to making sure that they continued to expand manufacturing.
Also they haven't been to tolerant of other religions?
Also they haven't been to tolerant of other religions?
TheMan
Member
My perceptions-
Language barrier. Exacerbated by the fact that Chinese is not commonly taught in this US. Can't even sound out or easily transcribe those characters to get a translation.
Chinese culture to me means food and ancient shit, I don't even get exposed to new or cool shit.
Their products have a rep for being cheap knockoffs. Someone having a preference for Chinese goods in the U.S. is unheard of (unless they're Chinese born looking for stuff from home.)
Stories that I hear of Chinese outside the cities involved shit like lack of toilet paper, babies shitting in public, food being cooked with sewer oil, rare animals being killed for medicine. Other east Asian countries like Japan and SK come off as more modern.
Language barrier. Exacerbated by the fact that Chinese is not commonly taught in this US. Can't even sound out or easily transcribe those characters to get a translation.
Chinese culture to me means food and ancient shit, I don't even get exposed to new or cool shit.
Their products have a rep for being cheap knockoffs. Someone having a preference for Chinese goods in the U.S. is unheard of (unless they're Chinese born looking for stuff from home.)
Stories that I hear of Chinese outside the cities involved shit like lack of toilet paper, babies shitting in public, food being cooked with sewer oil, rare animals being killed for medicine. Other east Asian countries like Japan and SK come off as more modern.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
I think its mainly because conformity isnt cool. Things like poor manners and poor treatment of animals is also unhelpful.
Filthy Casual
Member
China should just be themselves. I'm not an expert on the country but from the little I've heard/read they probably have more important issues to worry about. I don't understand this obsession they seem to have with wanting the be the 'leader' in everything. There priority should first and foremost be on making their own country a better place to live, surely. Then maybe perceptions will change. Most pop culture is garbage and of little worth anyway.
we had a lot of international students at my uni in sweden. Many of them were chinese. All the other people, indian, pakistan, thai, vietnamese and so on always engaged with each other and us swedes trying to integrate and make friends outside of their own group but the chinese were always only with their own. you couldn't even approach them. dunno what's up with that.
The few times I've interacted with chinese students they always go on about how china was first to do this and that, invented this tech first and so on. It's tiring to hear all that china glory talk. There was a cool dude, he bought me a milk packet which was cute.
It seemed like the chinese students had no interest in actually being there or getting to know other people.
The few times I've interacted with chinese students they always go on about how china was first to do this and that, invented this tech first and so on. It's tiring to hear all that china glory talk. There was a cool dude, he bought me a milk packet which was cute.
It seemed like the chinese students had no interest in actually being there or getting to know other people.
Sure, the subculture is pretty cool, but it's not mainstream. And disliked by the government.
Uli Sigg has spend decades to collect underground Chinese art, but the art won't be shown in China but in Hong Kong. China is limited itself with strict censorship.
Amory
Member
Second to none in terms of cultural export.
That doesn't mean we don't have our own problems
I pay a lot of attention to mobile products that come out of China. My primary phone right now is made by LeEco. Great combo of specs and battery capacity. But it is running an operating system and chips from American companies. It would be the same situation in China itself, just with some weird bastardized ROM that does not have an app drawer. So they are not really exporting a whole lot in these instances beyond the actual material and manufacturing costs.
I think cool usually comes out of a non-mainstream source with an edginess that offers something potentially dangerous, offensive, or subversive that the mainstream slowly follows on with a safer version.
But the CCP likes to stamp its foot down on the edgy because those edges have the potential to be used to cut the CCP.
The Chinese government attempts to censor a large chunk of culturally relevant and innovative film and art out of existence in the name of "harmony" and then it wonders why its culture with baby-proof rounded-corners doesn't resonate with the world.
But the CCP likes to stamp its foot down on the edgy because those edges have the potential to be used to cut the CCP.
The Chinese government attempts to censor a large chunk of culturally relevant and innovative film and art out of existence in the name of "harmony" and then it wonders why its culture with baby-proof rounded-corners doesn't resonate with the world.
gutter_trash
Banned
Mao's cultural revolution has set China back by allot.
On one hand yes (many legitimate intellectuals got imprisoned etc) on the other : Wouldn't a potential return to feudal China have been worse?
Because feudal China is worst China, no contest.
Edit: To phrase it differently, the execution of the cultural revolution was terrible but I do think China needed cultural change to prevent a return to the past.
Err what? Where are you drawing this from? The West saw China as better off than it in its entirety, they actually were probably overestimating it, until the 18th century with the sole exception of religion.
Again no. Why are you making claims like this?
When are you talking about here? Do you mean Japanese Imperialism? Also I don't think the Nationalists wanted isolation. We can put this more on the communist party I think.
Maybe somewhat, but this doesn't explain why the West likes Japanese and, though to a lesser extent, South Korean culture.
Ehh, I'd rather deal with one shitty president for 4-8 years than forfeit freedom of speech.
A few years back when at a club I ran into 2 Australians who, when I expressed interest in their country (it's one of my dream vacations and lately I have been very interested in the didgeridoo and Aboriginal culture), said that if I go down there with my thick Noo Yawk accent I'd probably clean house. That they love us 'seppos', even average joes like me. But maybe things have changed?
China has the same problem as Russia. In order to make the country a better place to live they need to reform the political system, but doing so could upset the conditions favorable to the elites. Anything they do to democratize the country could create even worse problems, so they're stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I think he's operating entirely from the late 18th century onwards, China had a good 1100 year run where they were ahead of the West in a lot of areas but outside of that they've always been second fiddle.
gutter_trash
Banned
I assume that too but using never (with ever being defined as roughly 1776-now) is bizarre. Its also an interesting and not uncommon kind of argument that requires history for legitimacy but is blatantly anti-historical.
Tsingtao is pretty well known and is on the menu at nearly every Chinese restaurant in the States that serves alcohol. I do think the Bund, Forbidden City are well known in the states as well.
DJ, heh I couldn't name one and I'm very involved in dance music.
Well there's Ai Weiwei, he is I'd say the only Chinese artist that is considered uniformly cool by people from the west. Of course the way the Chinese government deals with him is both a large factor in his coolness as well as emblematic for why China stifles coolness.
In some ways, economic dominance leads to cultural dominance. America, Europe, Japan became first world countries earlier than the rest.
I personally think China itself gave up on exporting culture to the West. I see Tencent, the dominant player in China's gaming market, would rather buy Epic, Riot, Supercell than making games for the West. I see singing contest in China inviting South Korea and Kazakhstan artists to compete and none from the West. In the movie scene, it wasn't too long ago that Wanda bought Legendary Pictures too.
When it comes to strictly entertainment, they understand that it's futile to go against decades of conditioning of your average westerners. For their stuff to be a mainstream hit, they would have to western-fied everything, including its aesthetics. The last few surviving triple A Japanese games all have white leads but the Japanese DNA within the game is a hindrance. And if you go 100% western, your stuff would be losing your identity.
Hence, it's so much easier to just buy over everything.
China has only rise like for the past 20 years, they have a very strong regional focus first. I am seeing more and more China shows in my country, Singapore. Their equivalent of The Voice even went as far as to scout South East Asia contestants who can sing in Mandarin.
For me I see it in this manner. Because they are such a huge market, they act like a vaccum and sucks everyone nearby into it. It's kinda like Hollywood where Europeans are heading towards there to work then staring local films, regardless of how excellent these films could be.
TL
R - Soft power takes time and China quite frankly can't be assed to export their stuff to the West. They rather put their money and effort on regional countries.
I personally think China itself gave up on exporting culture to the West. I see Tencent, the dominant player in China's gaming market, would rather buy Epic, Riot, Supercell than making games for the West. I see singing contest in China inviting South Korea and Kazakhstan artists to compete and none from the West. In the movie scene, it wasn't too long ago that Wanda bought Legendary Pictures too.
When it comes to strictly entertainment, they understand that it's futile to go against decades of conditioning of your average westerners. For their stuff to be a mainstream hit, they would have to western-fied everything, including its aesthetics. The last few surviving triple A Japanese games all have white leads but the Japanese DNA within the game is a hindrance. And if you go 100% western, your stuff would be losing your identity.
Hence, it's so much easier to just buy over everything.
China has only rise like for the past 20 years, they have a very strong regional focus first. I am seeing more and more China shows in my country, Singapore. Their equivalent of The Voice even went as far as to scout South East Asia contestants who can sing in Mandarin.
For me I see it in this manner. Because they are such a huge market, they act like a vaccum and sucks everyone nearby into it. It's kinda like Hollywood where Europeans are heading towards there to work then staring local films, regardless of how excellent these films could be.
TL
R - Soft power takes time and China quite frankly can't be assed to export their stuff to the West. They rather put their money and effort on regional countries.Three different factors come to mind. The first is time: China was in the throes of the Cultural Revolution until the late '70s and didn't really start building up its cultural products until the mid-'90s or so. These things take time, and China being competitive here probably won't happen for another couple of decades.
Next is a question of priorities. Most Chinese cultural products are designed for internal consumption. China is quickly becoming the largest consumer of films, and it's already the world's largest consumer of television and books. Some of the the most popular PC programs and smartphone apps are Chinese and you may not have ever heard of them. Tencent makes more money off of video games than anyone else in the world. The problem is that China is such a big market for these products that there isn't that much push to market them elsewhere.
Lastly, and probably the most importantly, is the question of identity. The Cultural Revolution stripped away much of China's cultural identity, and nobody cares much for the Communist symbology that replaced it. So what's China's current identity? Is it the monarchy ruled by the various dynasties for thousands of years? Is it the Empire that was remade into the Manchu image during the Qing Dynasty? Is it country and imagery that was formed after the 1911 Revolution? Is it the Communist China where everyone wore zhongsan suits and rode bicycles? Is it the China which apes Western culture and the uniform of choice is the black business suit?
I think that there's a struggle to determine the answer to that, and that this question is still very much up in the air. The most obvious way to see this fight is to look at the Ministry of Culture and all of the different censorship policies that have been advanced. SARFT has been trying to present an idealized China in film, television, and other media. But by doing so, it also is diluting the quality of those works and the ability to garner much appeal. And really until this fight over identity is sorted out, I don't think that China is going to get anywhere culturally speaking.
Next is a question of priorities. Most Chinese cultural products are designed for internal consumption. China is quickly becoming the largest consumer of films, and it's already the world's largest consumer of television and books. Some of the the most popular PC programs and smartphone apps are Chinese and you may not have ever heard of them. Tencent makes more money off of video games than anyone else in the world. The problem is that China is such a big market for these products that there isn't that much push to market them elsewhere.
Lastly, and probably the most importantly, is the question of identity. The Cultural Revolution stripped away much of China's cultural identity, and nobody cares much for the Communist symbology that replaced it. So what's China's current identity? Is it the monarchy ruled by the various dynasties for thousands of years? Is it the Empire that was remade into the Manchu image during the Qing Dynasty? Is it country and imagery that was formed after the 1911 Revolution? Is it the Communist China where everyone wore zhongsan suits and rode bicycles? Is it the China which apes Western culture and the uniform of choice is the black business suit?
I think that there's a struggle to determine the answer to that, and that this question is still very much up in the air. The most obvious way to see this fight is to look at the Ministry of Culture and all of the different censorship policies that have been advanced. SARFT has been trying to present an idealized China in film, television, and other media. But by doing so, it also is diluting the quality of those works and the ability to garner much appeal. And really until this fight over identity is sorted out, I don't think that China is going to get anywhere culturally speaking.
The culture in China had already changed by the '60s, and there was no danger of returning to Imperial China. The Cultural Revolution was just a destructive power grab by Mao with no positive upswing.
Conciliator
Banned
they're going for an economic victory instead of a cultural victory
anyone make that joke yet
anyone make that joke yet
I'm basing off of fact that China was carved up by Britain, Germany, Russia, France, and Japan. That doesn't mean Western powers didn't find things in China that they respected. But being under colonial rule is hardly equal.
Chaina has always been a proud nation who thought of itself greatest in the world. After get out underneath of colonial rule, it was easy for people like Mao to turn China back inwards.
After WII and the Korean War, Japan and South Korea were open to American markets because we were allies. We have a lot of military bases their which helps with cultural flow.
China has been closed off cultural from the world until the late 70's because of the cultural revolution. I can't emphases enough how being under Mao stunted the Chinese people interaction with the world.
Simple put, if you have friendly relations with nation, the exchange of culture happens. Thinking of each other as the big bad in the world make it hard to relate.
EDIT: I'm not an expert on China. This is just what I got from my history studies.
PassiveObserver
Member
This film was cool af.
You seem to be very chronologically confused. When do you think this happened? It hasn't been this way since the beginning of the world. Western attitudes about China went through a massive, and I mean massive, change fairly recently in historical time.
You'll also note I didn't say equal. Many in Europe saw China as well in advance of themselves, to the point where they greatly overestimated China's power and especially wealth. It was European fears of the Steady State that brought about change.
I think you need to start avoiding terms like always, but yes China has traditionally been quite proud and less willing to look outside its boarders. That being said the low water mark for this is probably the early 20th century. Again I don't think the Nationalists winning would have resulted in an isolated China.
So what is this an imperialism Goldilocks theory? China was colonized but not sufficiently so it lags behind South Korea and Japan? That doesn't seem convincing. It also doesn't map neatly onto other situations.
Err that is one thing I was saying. You seem to be offering two contradictory narratives here. Is this the result of some trait in the nature of China brought out by Imperialism, or is this the result of Mao.
I don't think it's this simple at all. For example many Russian youths began adopting american culture in the 1980s. Additionally this doesn't explain why not all allied nations have the same degree of cultural influence.
There is more going on here than a very simple reading of imperialism and geo-politics can explain.
Besides the smog, the country itself is actually very beautiful and such a change from America. Walking up the Great Wall will forever be one of the greatest moments in my life. I would recommend anybody to go out there and just spend a week visiting the historical sites and really getting to understand the Chinese culture.
I'm not hear to argue. I boiled down my understanding into TLDR bites to join a conversation.
Sorry I tried to participate.
PdotMichael
Banned
Japanese products had the reputation of being shitty and cheap, while Japanese companies were stealing ideas, doing industrial espionage and jobs were common stereotypes and prejudices.
At some point it changed, like it will change with Chinese products - it's basically the fate of every Asian nation that it must go through that nonsense, the origin of "made in Germany" is also quite interesting.
No need to make yourself out to be a victim. You came into a thread and posted an explanation for a complex cultural and social phenomenon. I took issue with your argument, and yes that is an argument. I don't see how that's a problem.
It's not appreciated enough just how closed off China was during the Cultural Revolution. It's basically like modern North Korea or Stalinist Soviet Union. Or maybe even more closed - other than an appearance at the 1952 Summer Games, the PRC's first appearance was in 1980 Lake Placid. In comparison, the Soviet Union in the 1980s was far more open to foreign influences.
Sadly, most of the wealth of Chinese history and culture have yet to be translated to English, so you'd really have to learn Chinese or an Asian language that it has been translated to. For example, the most popular living Chinese writer's works are as popular as Harry Potter, and far more important culturally, but he's basically unknown in the West.
I think that one big difference is that Japanese companies tried to sell their products abroad while this is untrue of most Chinese products. Everyone can name companies like Sony and Toshiba and Honda, but Chinese companies are all but unknown outside of dedicated tech circles. Who here can name a Chinese car company?
I came in a thread that labeled with a Simpson's quote.
I though it was going to be more lighthearted diversion from some personal family problems. I was wrong.
Good day.
obvious there's the cultural Revolution wiping out lots of aspects of their own culture and rich history and forcing a generation to abandon their own personal development.
More recently, the fact that Chinese movies have many themes they aren't even allowed to develop or show possible narratives that are vaguely related to the government or government policsy such as independent heroes, or forbidden romance being successful etc... Unless it's killing Japanese people then they love showing it from the TV I watched there
It's not just sledgehammer censorship causing westerners to not follow things though, especially when it comes to morality subjects which have some fundamentally different things which can be hard to enjoy in various media, such as filial piety
I'm not a very clear writer but historical events, combined with rather cynical and broad censorship, and sometimes using different possible themes and narrative styles compared to European and American culture makes it quite difficult for it to be successful
More recently, the fact that Chinese movies have many themes they aren't even allowed to develop or show possible narratives that are vaguely related to the government or government policsy such as independent heroes, or forbidden romance being successful etc... Unless it's killing Japanese people then they love showing it from the TV I watched there
It's not just sledgehammer censorship causing westerners to not follow things though, especially when it comes to morality subjects which have some fundamentally different things which can be hard to enjoy in various media, such as filial piety
I'm not a very clear writer but historical events, combined with rather cynical and broad censorship, and sometimes using different possible themes and narrative styles compared to European and American culture makes it quite difficult for it to be successful
I mean, how prevalent is this stuff actually? Yet you hear it repeated over and over in threads related to China. If you only hear the most negative stories reported out of a country on repeat, its not surprising that china is viewed negatively. It's boarderline propaganda in essence.
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