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Why Is China So … Uncool?

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Do you not understand the difference between criminal consequences imposed by the state, which can literally imprison it's citizens, and social consequences of free association?
It seems clear that you don't, which is why there is so much objection to your repeated posts that show you don't know what free speech even means. Especially after repeated explanations.

what you stated is just a terminology difference...punished by the state vis a vis punished by the mob.

to me, it does not matter if you got whipped by the government or the mob. you still got whipped.

you are right that i don't understand. because living a good and stable life is of utmost importance to me (and most asians) than raging on the need to freedom of expression. Give me some tax incentives and i will gladly mug myself.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
ok, i stand corrected then...but then you have to understand why asians like myself ain't particularly thrilled about America's idea of freedom of speech......what with its chaotic nature. We prefer stability than anything else....freedom be damned.

Freedom of speech means that you can say whatever you want and the government can't do shit about it.

What is chaotic about this? How is the government sending me to jail because I publicly said Trump can eat a bag of dicks more "stable"?
 

Bastables

Member
Yes, but this is also the answer to the question why it's uncool. People in western world do value democracy, freedom of speech etc. Especially since a large part of western world's most recent history has been about fighting opressive regimes. This is now a part of cultural DNA of that segment of humanity.
In Asia the outlook and philosophy is different, but what is there is a lot of history of wars, conquests and most recently bitter rivalries, which make it harder for China to be percieved cool if you're in country that's competing with it and has a lot of not pleseant history between them. It's much easier for say..Europeans to idolize USA when it helped to win WWII and then topple communism. There are only pleseant associeations there.
Are you seriously advocating Asia as negatively containing wars conquests and bitter rivalrys and white washing hundreds of years of slavery, colonialism, and native genocide that occurred. Shit that's recent enough that black live matter has to be a thing, DAPL pipe line and closer to home for me Waitangi Day Protests.

We're involved in endless wars in the Middle East due to the US deciding preemptive wars based on wmd lies could be a thing.

White mans burden still has a currency in the west it seems.
 
ok, i stand corrected then...but then you have to understand why asians like myself ain't particularly thrilled about America's idea of freedom of speech......what with its chaotic nature. We prefer stability than anything else....freedom be damned.
Don't generalize Asians like that, or even the Chinese. Free speech is one of the cornerstones of Hong Kong and Taiwanese society.
 
Freedom of speech means that you can say whatever you want and the government can't do shit about it.

What is chaotic about this? How is the government sending me to jail because I publicly said Trump can eat a bag of dicks more "stable"?

I believe what he means is that opposite holds true.

Assholes can say whatever shit they want to stir up trouble with racist and hateful rhetoric towards any minority groups.

So yeah, the good and the bad.
 
Freedom of speech means that you can say whatever you want and the government can't do shit about it.

What is chaotic about this? How is the government sending me to jail because I publicly said Trump can eat a bag of dicks more "stable"?

the misinformation and lack of control on both sides...i.e. both sides saying whatever they want and feel is the chaotic part.
 

Bastables

Member
Freedom of speech means that you can say whatever you want and the government can't do shit about it.

What is chaotic about this? How is the government sending me to jail because I publicly said Trump can eat a bag of dicks more "stable"?
It might have been better that you had laws against hate speech or circumscribed it enough that he could not ride a wave of racism and misogony to the White House to put you in the position of asking him to eat a bag of dicks.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
the misinformation and lack of control on both sides...i.e. both sides saying whatever they want and feel is the chaotic part.
So rather than misinformation from both sides we get it straight from the government and if we go against what they say, we end up in jail.

Not seeing how this is better than freedom of speech.
 
You might accidentally become the President.

That's the perception right now. Hell from what I understand, Obama can't even sue for defamation despite everyone knowing he didn't do anything. These are the big, obvious examples that get exposure.
People spent 8 years literally saying bush was Hitler. Would you have liked the Bush administration to have engaged in mass libel suits and crackdowns on all of his critics who used extreme political dissident language, yes, including exaggeration, hyperbole, and even false statements? Whataboutism is exactly what people are trying to explain to you as the core reason why free speech is sancrosant in the US system of government, and it's why BLM, unions, feminists, civil rights, anti government activists, the anti war movement haven't been able ultimately to be stopped even under regimes that would have liked to stop them from talking and organizing. Allowing the power to pick and choose allows the wrong people to pick and choose. Imagine president trump with the ability to silence his critics via mass lawsuits and government suppression. Hell, he'd probably order Twitter to ban 97% of users, shut down CNN, and order the Oscars off the air. The rule of law reigns supreme ultimately.
 

Bastables

Member
So rather than misinformation from both sides we get it straight from the government and if we go against what they say, we end up in jail.

Not seeing how this is better than freedom of speech.
Yeah there are a bunch of countries that get by with democracy and actually legislate and enforce against hate speech.
 
So rather than misinformation from both sides we get it straight from the government and if we go against what they say, we end up in jail.

Not seeing how this is better than freedom of speech.
But in America the slander and negative is at the front, not sure where that's good?

It's been happening for decades, especially in politics.

I want to help keep all Americans safe, while beating down Americans over and over for opposing views? The contradiction is too strong and almost no one cares

My chinese friends view the sex scandals in disbelief, like it's some unprofessional, rude and surprising thing.

Not that I feel truth should be hid but keep in mind all the garbage and fake or very distorted ideas they run..
 
what you stated is just a terminology difference...punished by the state vis a vis punished by the mob.

to me, it does not matter if you got whipped by the government or the mob. you still got whipped.

you are right that i don't understand. because living a good and stable life is of utmost importance to me (and most asians) than raging on the need to freedom of expression. Give me some tax incentives and i will gladly mug myself.
Who is getting literally imprisoned, let alone " whipped" for calling people fat?
And you keep up with the false dichotomy, so I wish you the best, but have no interest in continuing to read your posts. I guess that decision by me accordingly to you is the same as if government censors chose to delete your posts and come arrest you because they disagree.
 
People spent 8 years literally saying bush was Hitler. Would you have liked the Bush administration to have engaged in mass libel suits and crackdowns on all of his critics who used extreme political dissident language, yes, including exaggeration, hyperbole, and even false statements? Whataboutism is exactly what people are trying to explain to you as the core reason why free speech is sancrosant in the US system of government, and it's why BLM, unions, feminists, civil rights, anti government activists, the anti war movement haven't been able ultimately to be stopped even under regimes that would have liked to stop them from talking and organizing. Allowing the power to pick and choose allows the wrong people to pick and choose. Imagine president trump with the ability to silence his critics via mass lawsuits and government suppression. Hell, he'd probably order Twitter to ban 97% of users, shut down CNN, and order the Oscars off the air. The rule of law reigns supreme ultimately.

Maybe not elect those people in the first place?

Like, why is it so hard to agree that people probably should not say racist or false facts? And that those who do probably should not be allow to hold office?
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
Yeah there are a bunch of countries that get by with democracy and actually legalise against hate speech.
But this discussion isn't about those countries, it's about ones like China where the person I replied to say it's better to live under such regimes than it is for people to have freedom of speech.
 

hodgy100

Member
wrong....US Freedom of speech is that you can say anything.......unless it's something that somehow doesn't fit the narratives of the mobs..

i.e.

you can't call people fat or ugly now in this day and age because it 'hurt people's feelings' and is 'offensive'.

I mean...ugly is subjective so maybe that's not the best word to use..

but fat people are fat....fat is not even a subjective POV. But apparently in America, you can't call fat people fat regardless of freedom of speech.

lol you can call people fat if you want. Just know that it makes you insensitive and unhelpful to the person that is fat. you think you are helping them be not fat when in fact you're making it worse.
 

vonStirlitz

Unconfirmed Member
so this thread got derailed rapidly...

anyway what a load of ethnocentric crap that article was. there has always been a lot of cool shit coming from china. its just it never had a big scene overseas.

okay so i will looke dated on the prc side but in the past 20 years;

beijing music scene
film (zhang yimou, chen kaige)
literature (wang shuo and other hooligans)

thats not even including HK:

- wong kar wai
- faye wong
- andy lau
- tony leung
- maggie cheung
- mo wen wai
- john woo

and so on ad infinitum

i mean, c'mon...
 
But this discussion isn't about those countries, it's about ones like China where the person I replied to say it's better to live under such regimes than it is for people to have freedom of speech.
Maybe it is if it isn't spewing self loathe and hate all the time.
 

hodgy100

Member
There are massive issues with America's version of democracy. It lacks accountability you can get away with saying anything under "freeze peach" right now Europe's democracy is waaaaaaay stronger due to actually having good hate speech and misinformation laws.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
Maybe it is if it isn't spewing self loathe and hate all the time.
So we stop being PC and just start spewing hate all the time? Because that's what the poster thought freedom of speech was. He thinks "PC culture" and freedom of speech are the same thing. They don't think someone saying something hateful should be stopped, they think people shouldn't say anything to that hateful person.

They're example of why feeedom of speech is bad is that it makes people not call out fat people for being fat.

There's a conversation to have about how freedom of speech can be harmful when it's completely unchecked but this is not what that person was talking about. Freedom of speech didn't have anything to do with they were talking about.
 
Are you saying there is a time you'll agree to racism and false facts?

I keep coming back to those two points because I thought those would be universally agreed upon to be bad.

look some people really really really want to call others racial slurs
You keep editing your posts after you make them. I agree that racism is bad, and I also give money to an organization that ensures racists can always express themselves.

https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-history-taking-stand-free-speech-skokie

Read it or don't. I'm going to avoid further derails that were started by the bizarre guy talking about fat people, and maybe we can go back to talking about why Chinese culture doesn't really reverberate through the world the same way Nikes, Beyonce, McDonald's, and Hollywood do.
 

vonStirlitz

Unconfirmed Member
People get entrenched with a my culture is better than yours debate and conflate politics with culture.

there are also a lot of ethnocentric readings of politics that look at the bad in one country and surpress the same tripes in their own country.

like that tiananmen picture. i mean, really? what if you put up that picture of the butning child from the vietnam war. same message, different nation.

i can bitch about the us or the prc as much as anyone else bit this thread is about culture and coolness.

so can we avoid political shit slinging and talk about culture?
 
I dont think Americans are that loved.
No, the world definitely doesn't have a favourable view of 'Americans' but they still chow down on Marvel movies, listen to American music artists; care about American news; watch American television.

Soft power isn't about an outward 'gotta love them Americans', its about America having the dominant voice in culture regardless of where in the world it is.

Sure, the 'average American' is a subject of mockery but there's love for celebrities, music, movies, what have you.

If its about media-stuff, most chinese media/art isnt available to non-speaking Chinese.
Manhua? Thousands of them, really good ones, but all in Chinese and on Chinese web-platforms.
Art. 789 art district in Beijing, that not that many people know about, at least not ones that never went to Beijing.
Games. A lot of chinese indie games exist, but like Manhua, they mostly arent available to non-speaking Chinese.
Alternative music. Also so much stuff, but mostly played in small avenues with a dedicated fanbase.
Novels. A lot of "anti-government" novels available and other really good novels, especially Jinhua publishing has some cool stuff.
But China has those. They are just not available to the non Chinese speaking west because of language barriers.
Beijing e.g. has a huge Chinese comic scene, westerners dont know actually exists, most of the time:
Or TV-shows. One of the most popular one in the past few years was "Nirvana in Fire", which people describe as a "Game of Thrones" during ancient Chinese times. And its actually a really great show.
The article isn't saying that China's media isn't 'good' its saying that it lacks the worldwide projection of American media.

Doesn't matter if its good if foreigners aren't seeing it. (In regards to soft power, obviously).
 
So we stop being PC and just start spewing hate all the time? Because that's what the poster thought freedom of speech was. He thinks "PC culture" and freedom of speech are the same thing. They don't think someone saying something hateful should be stopped, they think people shouldn't say anything to that hateful person.

They're example of why feeedom of speech is bad is that it makes people not call out fat people for being fat.

There's a conversation to have about how freedom of speech can be harmful when it's completely unchecked but this is not what that person was talking about. Freedom of speech didn't have anything to do with they were talking about.
There is a load of bad on each side and I can definitely understand both.

I can't agree with either side to be fair bit I do think chinese live a more caring life style to people in general.

Chinese are more often willing to drop something negative or not care about it. As in really not care. That's a big difference to what happens in America. What did you say bro?

Anyways, that's one of the huge positives in thier culture.

That's something I'd fear for a Chinese immigrant. Being in the middle of a small issue being pushed by an American. They just don't do that or want that.

Many Americans fail to see how we care things and how silly it is.
 

Bastables

Member
But this discussion isn't about those countries, it's about ones like China where the person I replied to say it's better to live under such regimes than it is for people to have freedom of speech.
And yet Japan and South Korea who have achieved far more market penetration with cultural exports in the region have no where near the " freedom of speech" USA style.

The idea that china is not successfully exporting culture flys in the face of any one in Asia, and the intensity of the competition.

Here is a surreal juxtaposition of Akb 48 performance during Chinese New Year celebrations in Indonesia. A country that until recently equated Chinese with hated communist and suppressed any Chinese cultural celebrations.
https://youtu.be/dmU86SNlX0c
It actually indicates the competition and china ROK and Japan try and bring countries under their sphere of influence.

I still remember being surprised when visiting my sister in kl and being taken aback at all the banners celebrating closer ties between China and Malaysia in 2015.

The fact I was buying Malaysian wood cuts of Chinese New Year animals in KL malls belies the idea that china cultural exports are missing the mark.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
I think the article overstates China's level of uncoolness. China's soft power is growing in leaps and bounds through their technology exports and investments. Brands like Xiaomi are considered cool, innovative and reliable.

Really?

REALLY?

Anyone ever met someone not from China claiming Xiaomai is 'cool' or 'innovative'?
 

Lkr

Member
> China still isn’t beloved abroad, at least not to the extent that America is


As an asian, i agree China isn't cool going by its past behavior.....but c'mo Americans, you guys are no better.

Many in Asia look at America's policy (lack of gun control, constant ridiculous 'free-speech' rhetoric, imposing their idea of 'freedom' on other countries through the use of military might, wall street and their fucking banking system that affected the world whether we want it or not......on top of their current idiot president) with disdain and ridicule.

You are entitled to criticize other countries, oh Yankees.....but for your own sake, please take a look at the mirror as well.

You are not that 'cool' either.
That's not what the article is implying. It's talking about how American made art is consumed literally throughout Asia.
Free speech is a central tenant to producing art. The reason certain artists become living gods to the people is literally because they stand up to the government and criticize them in their work. Is that allowed in China to anywhere near the extent it is in America? I would assume not as the internet is censored there.

And none of this is to say America is a perfect country or doesn't have problems because god knows that ain't true lmao. China should be able to easily become the world leader under americas "orange crush" but the lack of pop culture in china makes it literally impossible to connect with the country. I know of Japanese celebrities. I don't follow KPop but it has a large international following so even a decent number of Americans have an understanding of Korean culture. But for china, all I know is what the government puts out there. I literally cannot comprehend day to day life for an average Chinese person.

I'll give you examples of my ignorance to Chinese culture. What is the most popular sport? Is it basketball? I have read online that Kobe Bryant is a cultural icon in China. Is Yao Ming the biggest Chinese celebrity in china for example? I only know of him and Jackie Chan and that's only because they came to America for their professions. I've never traveled to other countries but I can tell you some random things about modern culture in a lot of countries thanks to being on the internet so much. As a result I've seen art and "pop culture shit" from many other nations, but not from china and it still stands out given how large it is physically, in terms of population, and in sheer size of global economic importance. It's almost like the Chinese are segregated from the global community, which again, is weird because of how large the economy is.

The good news for China is that it is capable of producing good, cool shit. During the 2008 Olympics, Americans were literally mirin' the opening ceremony performances and all of the beautiful architecture for the facilities they built. That opening ceremony (and that olympics as a whole) was a pop culture moment in the US. London and Rio didn't feel like anywhere near the same effort. At some point I do believe china will have to open up more if it wants to become the world leader and I think they'll have to do it. They're becoming too rich and affluent to keep the entire country cut off from the information stream.
 
The difference between China and countries like Japan or Korea is that China is competition for the USA and its hegemony.
People here don't know or remember how much shit Japan got when Japan was that growing Asian powerhouse until the bubble bursted.

Another showcase is how "We" vs China alone this thread is and if you want to look deeper into it one would need to check how China was successful used by Trump as the big boogeyman for all American problems (no other country was more often mentioned by Trump than China) or how negatively American newsoutlets are reporting about anything China related.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
The only way Chinese state media could out-do itself on this one is if it were to, say, promote a rap song praising Karl Marx.

This author doesn't understand the internet.
 

Erevador

Member
The difference between China and countries like Japan or Korea is that China is competition for the USA and its hegemony.
People here don't know or remember how much shit Japan got when Japan was that growing Asian powerhouse until the bubble bursted.

Another showcase is how "We" vs China alone this thread is and if you want to look deeper into it one would need to check how China was successful used by Trump as the big boogeyman for all American problems (no other country was more often mentioned by Trump than China) or how negatively American newsoutlets are reporting about anything China related.
The Japan of the 1980's bears VERY little resemblance to the China of today by any measurement other than economic growth. Modern Japan is a vastly more open society with no imperial ambitions.

The reflexively anti-American make a massive mistake when they argue that all those who challenge American power are somehow the same, and simply the victim of some kind of American smear campaign.

I feel like I've been reading a lot of weird apologism for the Chinese regime on GAF lately, which has been surprising.

Clearly a lot of people have very short memories, and even less common sense.
 
But this discussion isn't about those countries, it's about ones like China where the person I replied to say it's better to live under such regimes than it is for people to have freedom of speech.

I did not say living in a censored environment is better. What I did say is living in an environment of free speech doesn't benefit me in the terms that is meaningful.

America can surely go about their freedom of speech.....That's their 'freedom'....I will be glad they don't go about judging and imposing their will in other countries with vastly different cultures and priorities.
 

Ratrat

Member
The difference between China and countries like Japan or Korea is that China is competition for the USA and its hegemony.
People here don't know or remember how much shit Japan got when Japan was that growing Asian powerhouse until the bubble bursted.

Another showcase is how "We" vs China alone this thread is and if you want to look deeper into it one would need to check how China was successful used by Trump as the big boogeyman for all American problems (no other country was more often mentioned by Trump than China) or how negatively American newsoutlets are reporting about anything China related.
China not having a cultural export with the impact of anime/videogames or kpop/kdramas even in Asia is because of America?
 
The Japan of the 1980's bears VERY little resemblance to the China of today by any measurement other than economic growth. Modern Japan is a vastly more open society with no imperial ambitions.

The reflexively anti-American make a massive mistake when they argue that all those who challenge American power are somehow the same, and simply the victim of some kind of American smear campaign.

I feel like I've been reading a lot of weird apologism for the Chinese regime on GAF lately, which has been surprising.

Clearly a lot of people have very short memories, and even less common sense.

You quoted me but I don't think that this is an acutal reply to my post.
 

Lkr

Member
The difference between China and countries like Japan or Korea is that China is competition for the USA and its hegemony.
People here don't know or remember how much shit Japan got when Japan was that growing Asian powerhouse until the bubble bursted.

Another showcase is how "We" vs China alone this thread is and if you want to look deeper into it one would need to check how China was successful used by Trump as the big boogeyman for all American problems (no other country was more often mentioned by Trump than China) or how negatively American newsoutlets are reporting about anything China related.
Japan was still cool before the bubble burst. Yes there was more "economic anxiety" toward them but Japanese products were still cool and prominent in culture, take Sony as the biggest example. What Chinese made products are cool? People openly mock Chinese made goods as being shit just because they were produced in China. There are no big Chinese brands in America. Japan can't compare in this case. People have been buying Japanese made cars for decades here. There is an inherent cultural ideal here that Japanese cars are superior to domestic cars in terms of value. Even economic anxiety of a foreign nation wasn't enough to make affluent white Americans stop buying Hondas or Toyotas and put American made cars back on top. The civic and corolla are still rolling off the lots in the highest volume.
 
The article is about cultural influence, not whether people generally like Americans or their official government policies.

Can't be repeated enough. This article is mainly talking about about why China's soft power (Movies, music, tv shows etc...) are so unpopular compared to its neighbors and the US, which is something not many people can deny. Don't know why this thread has devolved into a US vs China pissing match.
 
Can't be repeated enough. This article is mainly talking about about why China's soft power (Movies, music, tv shows etc...) are so unpopular compared to its neighbors and the US, which is something not many people can deny. Don't know why this thread has devolved into a US vs China pissing match.
Then the reason is simpler....Because it's culture isn't as widely exported out compared to western countries and even China's neighbours....

Also with the population of china, they don't need to. Many of the Chinese media companies are satisfied with just operating within china itself.
 
America's rise in popular culture came at the right time (rise of mass media), it built industries around it (Hollywood) and the values it spreads and reputation it has are universal (freedom). China comes along decades late, so everyone already has grown up with American media around them, they still need to built their media empire which is made harder now, and their values don't speak as much in favor of them.

Plus, almost nobody outside China speaks Chinese, while English is standard in a lot of the world. And well, there is a bit of racism involved as well, with Chinese not being seen as desirable as whites.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
America's rise in popular culture came at the right time (rise of mass media), it built industries around it (Hollywood) and the values it spreads and reputation it has are universal (freedom). China comes along decades late, so everyone already has grown up with American media around them, they still need to built their media empire which is made harder now, and their values don't speak as much in favor of them.

Plus, almost nobody outside China speaks Chinese, while English is standard in a lot of the world. And well, there is a bit of racism involved as well, with Chinese not being seen as desirable as whites.
Then why are Korea and Japan doing better, for example?
 

Boney

Banned
On a rush so just cp wiki on how pervasive the culture industry is.

Enlightenment as Mass Deception" said:
Consumption of the easy pleasures of popular culture, made available by the mass communications media, renders people docile and content, no matter how difficult their economic circumstances.[1] The inherent danger of the culture industry is the cultivation of false psychological needs that can only be met and satisfied by the products of capitalism; thus Adorno and Horkheimer especially perceived mass-produced culture as dangerous to the more technically and intellectually difficult high arts. In contrast, true psychological needs are freedom, creativity, and genuine happiness, which refer to an earlier demarcation of human needs, established by Herbert Marcuse.]

The Chinese government does not value individual freedoms at all.

Also, I am curious what developing nations the article was talking about who liked China's way of governing.
The American one values it as having the choice between coke and Pepsi.
 
Then the reason is simpler....Because it's culture isn't as widely exported out compared to western countries and even China's neighbours....

Also with the population of china, they don't need to. Many of the Chinese media companies are satisfied with just operating within china itself.

I don't believe this to be the case at all. No business is only satisfied operating domestically, especially not such an export oriented nation like China. And China is very much interested in spreading it's soft power internationally, especially with it's film industry. Look at the great wall for example.

The problem is that so many people are taking this article too personally (which is ironic considering the author of it is Chinese himself). No one is saying China has to be like the US but when the world's second largest economy is struggling to spread it's soft power when even it's smaller neighbors (Japan, SK, Taiwan, and HK) aren't then you have to acknowledge that the problem lies with China and how they restrict their media.
 
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