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[Aaron Strife]

No the only thing out of the right wing playbook is Hillary's campaign or did you not see her recently lying and having her daughter lie about bernie's plan for single payer.

She didn't lie. If the USA switched over to single payer tomorrow we wouldn't have Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP etc. because why would we, everyone's on the same system now.

That being said I would say it's a dumbass technicality to hang your campaign on and I think Hillary had better issues than healthcare to pick a fight on (like gun control).

 

[BearFlexington]

And in a Veterans Affairs Committee?!

what a fucking monster

I'm harping on this point because it's an example of the ergregious bullshit I was talking about beforehand. It's so unbelievably stupid and petty that someone would actually bring this up as a reason not to vote for someone that I can't believe it was actually uttered by a person who was trying to make a legitimate point.

First of all, the fact that you assumed I am a Sanders supporter is interesting. Secondly, I don't see a comparison in a person showing (what appear to be) fatigue and dismay with someone pretending to be bored in taxpayer-funded hearing.

 

[JustenP88]

So wait, don't bother citing evidence to say that people wouldn't support a socialist because reasons?

What percentage of the country do you think would say "I wouldn't vote for a liberal"?

If you guys are going to outright ignore current GE match up polling, then you'll have to forgive me if I don't take that particular poll from this past summer as gospel. Sorry. I think attitudes are changing. I think there's something to be said about the support Sanders is getting. I think the fact that he's annihilating Clinton as far as support from independents goes is worth at least something. I think he'll have a chance to make the distinction between his beliefs, and whatever a portion of the electorate may be afraid of.

And, above all else, I'm not confident that Hillary Clinton is going to be a strong candidate in the general. I have doubts about voter turnout. I know she's not well-liked outside of the Democratic establishment. I think both Hillary and Bernie have hurdles to overcome in the GE.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

It's not like Hillary's a master of getting her message across either. She's still evil abuela.

Okay? Doesn't mean she's a self avowed democratic socialist who plans on campaigning on raising taxes. There's a reason why politics is measured in soundbites and 30 second ads on TV.

People don't have the time or patience to research things or understand nuances. I got a real hard time thinking a long winded explanation of why tax increases would ultimately be beneficial to a middle class family is going to be effective.

What percentage of the country do you think would say "I wouldn't vote for a liberal"?

If you guys are going to outright ignore current GE match up polling, then you'll have to forgive me if I don't take that particular poll from this past summer as gospel. Sorry. I think attitudes are changing. I think there's something to be said about the support Sanders is getting. I think the fact that he's annihilating Clinton as far as support from independents goes is worth at least something. I think he'll have a chance to make the distinction between his beliefs, and whatever a portion of the electorate may be afraid of.

And, above all else, I'm not confident that Hillary Clinton is going to be a strong candidate in the general. I have doubts about voter turnout. I know she's not well-liked outside of the Democratic establishment. I think both Hillary and Bernie have hurdles to overcome in the GE.

Because GE polling right now is a joke. Ben Carson was smashing every Dem candidate back in November. Would you describe Ben Carson as electable or a strong candidate?

 

[kirblar]

Attempting to switch to single-payer would be disastrous. She is not wrong on that. (It didn't even work out when attempted at the state level recently.)

 

[Aaronology]

The 50% not voting for a socialist are most likely voting republican so I don't see how that matters. And has been stated innumerable times before, that the rights constant abuse of the word over the past 8 years has rendered it meaningless as an attack.

It has never been used on someone actually connected to socialism. Conservatives have been calling Barack Obama a Muslim for almost a decade. Do you similarly believe Americans would have no qualms electing an avowed Muslim, given that he won two terms despite those accusations?

Let me see how crazy we are here.

 

[Henchmen21]

She didn't lie. If the USA switched over to single payer tomorrow we wouldn't have Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP etc. because why would we, everyone's on the same system now.

That being said I would say it's a dumbass technicality to hang your campaign on and I think Hillary had better issues than healthcare to pick a fight on (like gun control).

Yes actually she did.

 

[Wiz]

I just wish Joe Biden ran for president. He has all the qualities that Clinton is lacking. Charisma, charm, authenticity, and I'm sure they have almost the same political platform. I think he could have brought more excitement out of the establishment base.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

If Republicans had worn out the meaning of socialist as a bad word, the polling wouldn't be so god damn awful for it.

You've got radical jihadists calling themselves Muslims going around scaring the shit out of people every day and even that polls better than socialist. Think about that.

 

[jackissocool]

Less people would vote for a socialist than a Muslim or an atheist. I mean just think about that. More people said they'd be unwilling to vote for a socialist than to vote for one. That's the only label that's like that.
The other polls:

This is a terrible poll. Socialist is the only political opinion on there. Why are they comparing socialist with race and religion instead of other political stances?

 

[ivysaur12]

First of all, the fact that you assumed I am a Sanders supporter is interesting. Secondly, I don't see a comparison in a person showing (what appear to be) fatigue and dismay with someone pretending to be bored in tax-payer-funded hearing.

Almost every one in this thread is some shade of left. If you're not, I'd gladly go through google images to find pictures of your candidate of choice bored or yawning.

I truly, absolutely hate that you even brought this up as an "issue". I think this is one of the dumbest, most non-essential "complaints" I've ever seen on NeoGAF, and you should be ashamed of yourself for stooping so low as to complain about the body language given by a particular candidate during a particular day at a committee.

Fuck him

And him

And him

 

[kirblar]

This is a terrible poll. Socialist is the only political opinion on there. Why are they comparing socialist with race and religion instead of other political stances?

They are not being polled against each other. Your stance is ridiculous - there's nothing wrong with the question being asked.

 

[AlphaDump]

I live in Illinois, dude .

it is a valid question. how many people are inherently fluent in German from illinois? You live there but might be from a different country. I appreciate the response, it is important for me to understand the audiences here.

 

[BearFlexington]

Hillary's quest for the presidency seems less about service to the people of this country than about personal gain. And maybe not just her personal gain, but for the gain of the Clinton estate and their business interests.

I would say the same thing about Jeb.

 

[JustenP88]

Because GE polling right now is a joke. Ben Carson was smashing every Dem candidate back in November. Would you describe Ben Carson as electable or a strong candidate?

GE polling at this stage in the campaign is absolutely hit-and-miss. Someone posted a chart the other day that showed as much. Some elections it was fairly reliable, some elections there was a pretty decent swing. Regardless, it's still comprised of real humans being asked real questions and Sanders is doing well. Are you of the opinion that the people picking him over the other candidates just don't know about his socialist label yet (as has been, somehow, argued already in this thread)?

Again. I don't think it's smart to look at that Gallup poll from June and say "47% is the absolute maximum amount of support anybody tied to any sort of 'socialism' can receive."

This is a terrible poll. Socialist is the only political opinion on there. Why are they comparing socialist with race and religion instead of other political stances?

Also what jack said.

Also roughly half the country would say they wouldn't vote for a liberal/conservative.

 

[jackissocool]

They are not being polled against each other. Your stance is ridiculous - there's nothing wrong with the question being asked.

I didn't say they're being polled against eachother. But they're being compared. Why not compare it to politics stances, which would cast a much more meaningful light on that ~50%?

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

GE polling at this stage in the campaign is absolutely hit-and-miss. Someone posted a chart the other day that showed as much. Some elections it was fairly reliable, some elections there was a pretty decent swing. Regardless, it's still comprised of real humans being asked real questions and Sanders is doing well. Are you of the opinion that the people picking him over the other candidates just don't know about his socialist label yet (as has been, somehow, argued already in this thread)?

Again. I don't think it's smart to look at that Gallup poll from June and say "47% is the absolute maximum amount of support anybody tied to any sort of 'socialism' can receive."

I would say if he was a more charismatic or appealing candidate, his ability to "sell" socialism would be better but he inspires very little confidence for me. He's no Obama or Bill Clinton or Reagan when it comes to that intangible quality.

 

[reckless]

Also roughly half the country would say they wouldn't vote for a liberal/conservative.

The poll shows only 59% of Democrats would vote for a socialist. That is an amazing hurdle to overcome.

 

[rjinaz]

They are not being polled against each other. Your stance is ridiculous - there's nothing wrong with the question being asked.

There's nothing wrong with it but it doesn't say much either. Choosing anything but socialist makes you a pretty lousy person.

 

[BearFlexington]

Almost every one in this thread is some shade of left. If you're not, I'd gladly go through google images to find pictures of your candidate of choice bored or yawning.

Fuck him

And him

And him

Again, terrible comparative examples. I don't think you get it, but that's fine.

And as for this:

I truly, absolutely hate that you even brought this up as an "issue". I think this is one of the dumbest, most non-essential "complaints" I've ever seen on NeoGAF, and you should be ashamed of yourself for stooping so low as to complain about the body language given by a particular candidate during a particular day at a committee.

I am not ashamed because:

a) why would I be for having an opinion
b) I'm not 10
c) you're wrong and seem incapable of grasping the importance of presentation on the part of a would-be president

Her posturing, in my opinion, demonstrated a complete disdain for procedure, the severity of the issue, her colleagues, and frankly the American people. She clearly didn't feel she should be there. That's fine. What better opportunity to show how "above" it all you are by being alert, attentive, responsive, and "better" than your interviewers. This is the bit you don't get. Also, I recall saying "irked," not "triggered."

 

[JustenP88]

I would say if he was a more charismatic or appealing candidate, his ability to "sell" socialism would be better but he inspires very little confidence for me. He's no Obama or Bill Clinton or Reagan when it comes to that intangible quality.

Say what you will about his lack of charisma, but there's genuine enthusiasm for him amongst groups that aren't typically very enthused about politics. If his support was just confined to reddit/berngaf, he wouldn't be polling as well as he has been. He wouldn't be shattering fundraising records.

The poll shows only 59% of Democrats would vote for a socialist. That is an amazing hurdle to overcome.

That's a hurdle he'll have to overcome to win the Democratic nomination. If he does that, the hurdle becomes irrelevant. Unless of course the implication is that a significant amount of Dem voters would stay home if he got the nomination. Shame on them!

 

[reckless]

That's a hurdle he'll have to overcome to win the Democratic nomination. If he does that, the hurdle becomes irrelevant. Unless of course the implication is that a significant amount of Dem voters would stay home if he got the nomination. Shame on them!

Yeah it would be a shame but its a very real possibility, I like Bernie and would vote for him in a second if he's the nominee but not everyone would.

 

[Indicate]

There are numerous Sanders supporters on GAF that have said they will vote for Clinton in the GE. Far more then those who have said they will stay home. So HRC supporters need get the fuck out of my face with the lame posts generalizing Sanders supporters as conceded as a means to feel righteous.

Count me in as a Bernie supporter that would vote for Hillary in the general if given the chance. I'm also a minority like some Bernie supporters here on GAF. It's really annoying to hear how some Hillary supporters assume Bernie has little minority support. A quick look on Facebook and other social media sites show the opposite and he will continue to gain more overtime.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Don't really support any candidate. They all blow smoke up our assessment and we buy it time and time again.

But at the same time I believe in voting. I'd go for Bernie even though I have zero belief that he'd do or be able to do half the shit he talking about.

Obama talked a good game too....

 

[dramatis]

Again, terrible comparative examples. I don't think you get it, but that's fine.

And as for this:



I am not ashamed because:

a) why would I be for having an opinion
b) I'm not 10
c) you're wrong and seem incapable of grasping the importance of presentation on the part of a would-be president

Her posturing, in my opinion, demonstrated a complete disdain for procedure, the severity of the issue, her colleagues, and frankly the American people. She clearly didn't feel she should be there. That's fine. What better opportunity to show how "above" it all you are by being alert, attentive, responsive, and "better" than your interviewers. This is the bit you don't get. Also, I recall saying "irked," not "triggered."

The problem here isn't that you have an opinion on the presentation of a president.

The problem here is that you're applying such a high standard ONLY to Hillary Clinton, and arbitrarily dismiss all other examples of 'presidents' and presidential candidates who have the same "poor posture" in long sessions/meetings.

Perhaps it's subconscious, but it's certainly sexist to handwave the men for their postures and criticize Hillary for hers. That's why your attitude has been irritating. Because you don't seem to realize you're engaging in sexist behavior, and instead are digging in your heels and defending your argument.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

I've been sick of Hilary and the Clintons in general since late 90s, probably earlier. Hilary is the standard stereotypical politician, she wants power and will do and say whatever it takes to get elected, there's zero conviction there. The only thing I'm more sick of is the GOP and the right's continued attempts at undermining pretty much everyone and anything that's outside their party the crazy has gone on for so long that they've reached the point where they've finally done it to themselves, the level of fuck up that would have to happen on the Democrats side for them to lose would be colossal and honestly Hilary is the one that would really rile up their base to there being any sort of possibility even with their dreadful nominee. It doesn't matter though if she or Bernie gets the nomination and wins, it's still going to be four years of the same bullshit that's been going on since 1993. One can only hope Republicans get the shit kicked out of them in the House and Senate races. I've always voted third party whenever possible but this year I feel like I'm going to have to suck it up and vote almost straight Democrat for the first time in my life because the GOP and the fucking crazies desperately needs a wake up call.

I feel like I should run for President and why not? There's going to be a thousand other "zero vote" candidates out there.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Bernie. So how bout my $100 now?

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/bernie-s/
Sorry bud. Berliarnie

 

[Speely]

Hard to have enthusiasm for someone who, at BEST, will be a centrist who protects some policies Obama set in motion and is otherwise (ostensibly) generally willing to play the same safe game that has ever been played.

Not saying she's horrid, or even that, given the role being inherited, that she isn't the wisest choice (the game isn't going to change until it's abandoned altogether.) Just hard to get enthusiastic about "status quo + protecting some safe issues."

Bernie is exciting because he is closer to fundamental change that's less iterative. Whether that's better or worse given the state of the DNC and future Congressional interaction is debatable, but on a purely ideological level it's a lot easier to get excited about the possibility of more change than less for those unhappy with the current structure of the U.S. govt.

That's my story, at least.

 

[Kinvara]

...and in the 50's, LBJ was a segregationist Democrat, but he managed to pass the largest expansion of the welfare state and end government supported racial segregation.

It's nice to be an idealist. But, sometimes you need people who have been in the shit and know where the bodies are buried to get things done.

The main reason why even though I love Sanders- I think Clinton would make an excellent president because she understands the political machine and get things done.

It's hard to figure out who she really is though since her public image is so manufactured.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Would you guys be really happy with Hillary as your president

I'd piss my pants with joy.

 

[GnawtyDog]

Who says there is little enthusiasm? I am hyped.

After the catastrophes of 2010 and 2014 it's nice to know we have a solid candidate to represent the party and keep America on the path of progress.

She's got the Clinton camp on her back, the DNC on her back, she's as liberal as there is...but smart enough to play centrist politics to win in a general. Not only does centrist politics win you votes, they also make you less vulnerable to attacks. The base might not be particularly happy perhaps - "they are not hearing what they want to hear".....but at the end of the day, what matters is winning. There is a segment of the population that isn't as liberal as the base and they need to be represented and appealed to too..

People say she's a bit hawkish...that's her posturing to keep the persona of a "strong women on foreign policy" - she's clearly aware of sexism and what some expect. A dovish Hillary would play into narratives that should be avoided if they can be avoided. She's clearly figured that out a longgggggg time ago. Specially when your main opponents, the GOP, get A+ on chest bumping.

If anyone's paid attention on the debates, her tone on foreign policy is carefully measured and falls pretty much in line with the current strategies pushed down by policy advisers, the Pentagon, the State Department, the CIA et all. Her foreign policy will fall in line with that of Bills and Obama's more or less - advisers practically make policy not the Prez. So I wouldn't worry about that.

When it comes to healthcare, twice as experienced as Sanders in battling to get shit done. As she says it herself, she's got the scars to prove it. Pushing for single-payer is no joke. There are billion dollar industries whose livelihood and money are at stake and see absolutely no reason for the government to step in and literally change every rule of the game. People don't really realize how BIG this is.

Hec you think Obama didn't knew this when pushing Obamacare? You think he wouldn't have run on single-payer if he could? He was smart enough a politician to realize that single-payer is too divisive, that the stakes are too high and that moderation is the best option. "Bit by bit" you get there. Not to mention Obamacare has been hit with practically every attack in the book and it's not, again, as drastic a change as single-payer - not even close. Now imagine the Obamacare backlash 5-fold. Hec we got the GOP threatening to repeal Obamacare at every turn every freaking second and minute there is.

Hillary has also moderated her positions tremendously on HC after being an ideologue like Sanders and Ted Kennedy. It shows one thing, experience and pragmatism.

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

Aside from her being much further right on numerous issues than I'm comfortable with, much of what she says sounds and feels entirely inauthentic. Bernie Sanders isn't as polished but he's where I want a candidate to be on the issues and his statements feel less like a scripted recording and more like an authentic response to whatever question was asked. I'm also not a fan of the way that the DNC has been handling the competition between her and Sanders but that's not her fault.

I'd take Hillary over literally any Republican but I'm not enthusiastic about her at all.

 

[Kinvara]

Count me in as a Bernie supporter that would vote for Hillary in the general if given the chance. I'm also a minority like some Bernie supporters here on GAF. It's really annoying to hear how some Hillary supporters assume Bernie has little minority support. A quick look on Facebook and other social media sites show the opposite and he will continue to gain more overtime.

Yeah, assuming that Sanders' supporters are all young white dudes because he's popular with gaf is just silly. (I'm a minority woman myself that likes Sanders)

Not sure if any surveys have been conducted yet but I would think that both Democratic candidates have a diverse group of supporters unlike the Republicans who appeal only to old white conservatives.

 

[draetenth]

She comes off as too much of an establishment/corporate person for me, but I would rather have her than anyone from the GOP side...

 

[RetrospectiveLamb]

I like how she is a big proponent for helping getting health insurance for kids' families and women's rights, but man she just lacks the charisma compared to Obama. She can come off cynical at times due to her connections to Wall Street bankers or her criticism towards Sanders' proposed healthcare single payer system. In short, the overall vibe I get from her is she will say anything to get elected president. I tend to prefer Bernie's character compared to her, and that's saying something because I think some of Bernie's proposals are a pipe dream in today's Congress.

Regardless, I think she is miles more qualified than Trump and if it comes down to it I will vote for her over Trump.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Hillary is about as exciting as watching grass grow.

Unfortunately it's her or Donald Trump at the moment, so between those two, the choice is fairly obvious. So here we are.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Was she a progressive and a liberal when she decided she wanted to attack assad and the rebels at the same time, the exact same strategy of Bush Jr in Iraq?

I get how the rest of neogaf thinks and how most will likely disagree on this particular subject.. But I can't insist enough about how upsetting reading this was to me.

No. Doing something to stop Assad and his war crimes in indiscriminately barrel bombing and using chemical weapons on the Syrian people, leading to the population of the country to cut in half in under half a decade, is NOT "GWB policy".

Iraq was not causing a world wide refugee crisis of this scale. This is worse than anything since WW2. How many refugees have poured into Europe at this point because of this? How many people have died? Instituting a no fly zone to stop the barrel bombing and the refuge crisis so assads regime isn't able to kill innocent people is not the same as GWB toppling a government, going to war, over an issue that was completely fabricated. This issue is REAL and the entire world is feeling the effects of it. Germany shouldn't have to be accepting millions of new people out of the kindness of their own heart..

We have a responsibility to do something here. We have the power and capability to get an international coalition together to stop the SOURCE of this refugee crisis rather than argue over who should take in how many people. We as a global leading need to do everything we can to minimize the human rights disasters that happen across the world. Doing nothing for the sake of doing nothing considering our global standing isn't an acceptable foreign policy tactic. Sometime doing nothing is the best choice.. This situation however it is not.

 

[Polari]

Hillary represents more of the same.

How anyone can get excited about that is beyond me. She comes across as incredibly cynical and self-serving. Her attacks trying to depict Sanders as a sexist are appalling (I'll give her Trump), especially considering she's married to a serial abuser.

 

[outunderthestars]

Hillary represents more of the same.

How anyone can get excited about that is beyond me. She comes across as incredibly cynical and self-serving. Her attacks trying to depict Sanders as a sexist are appalling (I'll give her Trump), especially considering she's married to a serial abuser.

This is pretty much what I feel as well. She represents the old guard of the party and has been on the wrong side of aamost every issue I care about. I will vote for her if I have to, but I won't be happy about it. Sadly the party is pretty much devoid of any vibrant candidates that aren't dangerously close to possibly dying in office.

 

[kame-sennin]

Personality-wise? Not really. She is a downgrade from Obama - "boring" or "fake" as many of the kids say. "Corporate" is another fun, vague insult to throw out there.

But I'm not voting in a high school student council election, or in an American Idol competition.

Holy shit. The degree to which you need to be divorced from reality to say something like this... wow.

https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cid=N00000019&cycle=Career

 

[ivysaur12]

Again, terrible comparative examples. I don't think you get it, but that's fine.

And as for this:



I am not ashamed because:

a) why would I be for having an opinion
b) I'm not 10
c) you're wrong and seem incapable of grasping the importance of presentation on the part of a would-be president

Her posturing, in my opinion, demonstrated a complete disdain for procedure, the severity of the issue, her colleagues, and frankly the American people. She clearly didn't feel she should be there. That's fine. What better opportunity to show how "above" it all you are by being alert, attentive, responsive, and "better" than your interviewers. This is the bit you don't get. Also, I recall saying "irked," not "triggered."

Then I'll call it for what I've been largely avoiding: sexist bullshit. Congratulations. I almost never use that term on here because it's loaded when you accuse someone of it, but you've engage in petty, sexist dickery that I would expect from a terrible article on the National Review, not someone from the left.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

She's a corrupt, establishment scumbag who believes that her wealth and power exempt her from the rules that everyone else has to follow. She's the exact opposite of what Democrats (claim to) stand for.

 

[timetokill]

Holy shit. The degree to which you need to be divorced from reality to say something like this... wow.

https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cid=N00000019&cycle=Career

Seriously, "corporate" is incredibly apt for Hillary.

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

Corruption, lies, and establishment.

 

[CPS2]

Shillary

 

[ivysaur12]

Shillary

This is very creative. Did you come up with it on your own?

 

[gate stormer]

FEEL THE BERN!

Hillary is basically a Republican in Democrat clothing.

 

[The Artisan]

her stance on marijuana sucks compared to sanders's.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

When I see the corporate talk, I at least hope people are not being hypocritical about it and ignoring Obama's campaign contributions. Now I know some far left ideologues consider Obama a sellout shill as well, but it seems like the numbers don't add up. In summary, don't be a hypocrite.

FEEL THE BERN!

Hillary is basically a Republican in Democrat clothing.

That must be why their policies overlap on 95% of issues right? Out of all the valid reasons to bring up why you support Sanders, you come up with total bullshit.

 

[jackissocool]

When I see the corporate talk, I at least hope people are not being hypocritical about it and ignoring Obama's campaign contributions. Now I know some far left ideologues consider Obama a sellout shill as well, but it seems like the numbers don't add up. In summary, don't be a hypocrite.

I mean if you're looking for someone to hold Wall Street accountable, these aren't the people. For quite a few Americans, financial inequality is an enormous issue, and Wall Street getting off scott free for destroying the economy is hugely emblematic of that.