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[Freedom Gate Co.]

You're wrong. Point 5 can be very easily debunked. When I install a game from disc onto my external SSD on X1X it loads and runs much faster than when the same game, from the same disc, is installed to the internal HDD.
The disc had 0 effect on how fast the game loads and runs. This includes loading assets during gameplay.
This alone melts your entire concept.
/ thread.

No, the machine without the drive can't move the disc fast enough to reach it's maximum cap the drive can.

All I'm saying is the SSD can't move the game faster than the maximum cap.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[Dr. Claus]

They have to change it back anyway, I didn't give THEM permission to mess with my account.



The disc has software that knows the disc is in an Xbox. That's different from the store where it's just a digital file. You don't need to format it for a disc.

Um, they don't need your permission. They *run the site* and can give anyone a title if they please. I really hope you were being facetious.

 

[Klayzer]

Will someone please stand for Freedom!

 

[Kenpachii]

No, the machine without the drive can't move the disc fast enough to reach it's maximum cap the drive can.

All I'm saying is the SSD can't move the game faster than the maximum cap.

That's all I'm saying.

Wait are you honestly thinking the SSD spins like a disc? U do know what a SSD is right?

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Look it's clear that we need to really make things more CLEAR on how this actually works.

I have to do something but right after or tomorrow, I have a nice Youtube Video and a long long detailed article from a guy named Timothy Bunton.

Mr. Bunton is the creator of the file containers, and worked on the Bluray disc in order to implement the way it transfers files and runs off drives.

This man is an expert, and he will prove the accurate fact about the BR disc design and the cap limits on speed. You don't understand this is a proprietary format, and I think many will learn from the info dump. So i'll let you have your laughs now but I am well aware about the complexities of transfer storage tech, and I think you guys will enjoy the lesson by Mr. Timothy Bunton.

 

[onQ123]

Finally, because of Step 4, when you have a fast SSD drive, the game will not take advantage of those load times because the installed data has a cap. SSD drives have much fasters speeds than Bluray. This means that even with a SSD, the game you installed will only run as fast as what the limit on the disc was.

So what I am getting at is that it's useless to use the Bluray format for the PS5 if you can't even take advantage of the SSD.

That's all I'm saying.

Hopefully that finally clears everything up.

Are you out of your damn mind?

 

[DeepEnigma]

This thread is a bad bitch, I love it.

 

[Kenpachii]

Look it's clear that we need to really make things more CLEAR on how this actually works.

I have to do something but right after or tomorrow, I have a nice Youtube Video and a long long detailed article from a guy named Timothy Bunton.

Mr. Bunton is the creator of the file containers, and worked on the Bluray disc in order to implement the way it transfers files and runs off drives.

This man is an expert, and he will prove the accurate fact about the BR disc design and the cap limits on speed. You don't understand this is a proprietary format, and I think many will learn from the info dump. So i'll let you have your laughs now but I am well aware about the complexities of transfer storage tech, and I think you guys will enjoy the lesson by Mr. Timothy Bunton.

So you honestly think blu-ray is faster then a SSD in reading and writing information?

How fast can you read/write data on a Blu-ray disc?

According to the Blu-ray Disc specification, 1x speed is defined as 36Mbps. However, as BD-ROM movies will require a 54Mbps data transfer rate the minimum speed we're expecting to see is 2x(72Mbps). Blu-ray also has the potential for much higher speeds, as a result of the larger numerical aperture(NA) adopted by Blu-ray Disc. The large NA value effectively means that Blu-ray will require less recording power and lower disc rotation speed than DVD and HD-DVD to achieve the same data transfer rate. While the media itself limited the recording speed in the past, the only limiting factor for Blu-ray is the capacity of the hardware. If we assume a maximum disc rotation speed of 10,000 RPM, then 12x at the outer diameter should be possible(about 400Mbps). This is why the Blu-ray Disc Association(BDA) already has plans to raise the speed to 8x(288Mbps) or more in the future.

Sony claims a faster SSD solution then:

The 970 EVO transforms high-end gaming and streamlines graphic intensive workflows with the new Phoenix controller and Intelligent TurboWrite technology. Get stunning sequential read/writespeeds of 3,500/2,500 MB/s*

 

[Afro Republican]

So you honestly think blu-ray is faster then a SSD in reading and writing information?

No he's saying that an SSD can't make a Blu Ray file load faster because it was on a Blu Ray.

Yeah that doesn't make sense either.

 

[LordOfChaos]

You know 'Gaf, this thread is going to be one of our all time classics, I can feel it

 

[LordOfChaos]

An SSD would be as slow as a blu ray because it was installed from a blu ray [abject falsehood] [1]

A SSD loaded game will be somewhat slower than it could be because of DRM [true] [10]


Could you help me out and tell me where you are on this scale

At first you were saying the SSD wouldn't help much...It'll help by orders of magnitude. They literally showed a game that loaded 20x faster, a real game installed from a blu ray presumably. DRM makes things a bit slower, but on the other hand saying the disk would limit the SSDs speed to the point of it not being much of a benefit is abjectly false.

No, the machine without the drive can't move the disc fast enough to reach it's maximum cap the drive can.

All I'm saying is the SSD can't move the game faster than the maximum cap.

That's all I'm saying.

Could you respond to this

 

[DeepEnigma]

No he's saying hat an SSD can't make a Blu Ray file load faster because it was on a Blu Ray.

Yeah that doesn't make sense either.

Don’t burn any files you have on your computer to a Blu-ray disc, it will slow all of them down when you drag them back off to another computer, or something.

 

[Afro Republican]

Look it's clear that we need to really make things more CLEAR on how this actually works.

I have to do something but right after or tomorrow, I have a nice Youtube Video and a long long detailed article from a guy named Timothy Bunton.

Mr. Bunton is the creator of the file containers, and worked on the Bluray disc in order to implement the way it transfers files and runs off drives.

This man is an expert, and he will prove the accurate fact about the BR disc design and the cap limits on speed. You don't understand this is a proprietary format, and I think many will learn from the info dump. So i'll let you have your laughs now but I am well aware about the complexities of transfer storage tech, and I think you guys will enjoy the lesson by Mr. Timothy Bunton.

I found this the Bunton guy he's talking about:
https://www.enterprisenews.com/news/20171006/former-brockton-va-doctor-now-registered-sex-offender

A former Brockton VA campus doctor pleaded guilty to using a computer to solicit a minor, and he is now losing his right to practice medicine in Massachusetts.

Timothy J. Bunton had already voluntarily agreed not to practice medicine in Massachusetts after he was first arrested in 2015, according to state officials.

But after he pleaded guilty to the charge, and became a registered sex offender in Virginia, the Massachusetts Board of Medicine took disciplinary action at its Sept. 28 meeting and announced its punishment on Thursday.

Looking at the picture he does have Blu Ray eyes so I can see why he is an expert.

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

No, the machine without the drive can't move the disc fast enough to reach it's maximum cap the drive can.

All I'm saying is the SSD can't move the game faster than the maximum cap.

That's all I'm saying.

There is no "cap". The game will load and run assets as fast as the medium it's installed ON will allow. The game is not installed ON the disc. The disc is only the installer. The game actually runs off the hard drive it's installed to. The only thing the disc is used for is to check for DRM on the initial launch of the game. After that, it's ran off the hard drive with a possible disc verification on occasion, WHICH DOES NOT AFFECT HOW THE ACTUAL GAME RUNS because the game is not run off of the disc. No matter how you attempt to spin this weird quest you're on. This is like some flat earther shit reasoning you're on.

 

[Kenpachii]

Don’t burn any files you have on your computer to a Blu-ray disc, it will slow all of them down when you drag them back off to another computer, or something.

How screwed am i, i just put my user profile on a floppy and copied it back.

 

[Negotiator]

Imagine if someone insinuated that XBOX 360 hardware would suffer on multiplatform games because of DVD vs PS3 hardware having a Blu-Ray.

We all know how that turned out, right? At least initially... not to mention that PCs have been using DVD for a long time as well.

 

[DeepEnigma]

How screwed am i, i just put my user profile on a floppy and copied it back.

You’ll need a whole new computer now.

 

[shark sandwich]

You guys are dumb. OP is right.

You can copy Blu Ray files to an SSD but that doesn’t magically give them SSD speed. They’re still Blu Ray files so they always run at Blu Ray speed.

Learn more about technology, SonyGAF.

 

[Afro Republican]

So what's the bet that OP will either:

1. Edit his original post and pretend he didn't mention a "Blu Ray" expert in his last post.

2. He will create his own article write-up proving his delusions without a link and say he took a picture of a magazine of "Timothy Bunton's" writings.

3. He will come back to the thread and say the mods don't want legal trouble.

4. He will abandon this thread completely, and likely distract us with a new thread on a different subject tomorrow.

Taking all bets.

 

[shark sandwich]

So what's the bet that OP will either:

1. Edit his original post and pretend he didn't mention a "Blu Ray" expert in his last post.

2. He will create his own article write-up proving his delusions without a link and say he took a picture of a magazine of "Timothy Bunton's" writings.

3. He will come back to the thread and say the mods don't want legal trouble.

4. He will abandon this thread completely, and likely distract us with a new thread on a different subject tomorrow.

Taking all bets.

4, and we will shower OP with the glorious attention he craves.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Imagine if someone insinuated that XBOX 360 hardware would suffer on multiplatform games because of DVD vs PS3 hardware having a Blu-Ray.

We all know how that turned out, right? At least initially... not to mention that PCs have been using DVD for a long time as well.

Actually wasn't that PS3 blu ray drive only capable of 9Mb/s, hence why it went for more games with mandatory HD installs?

...You know, because the HD would load those games faster than the blu ray?

 

[DeepEnigma]

You guys are dumb. OP is right.

You can copy Blu Ray files to an SSD but that doesn’t magically give them SSD speed. They’re still Blu Ray files so they always run at Blu Ray speed.

Learn more about technology, SonyGAF.

Cerny must’ve solved the Blu-ray quantum physics with that Spiderman joint.

 

[Afro Republican]

You’ll need a whole new computer now.

There's a laserdisc add-on for your ChromeBook that should fix that right up.

 

[DeepEnigma]

There's a laserdisc add-on for your ChromeBook that should fix that right up.

Does it come in vinyl? However I may graduate to 8 track for that infinite game loop.

 

[Negotiator]

Actually wasn't that PS3 blu ray drive only capable of 9Mb/s, hence why it went for more games with mandatory HD installs?

...You know, because the HD would load those games faster than the blu ray?

Yeah, it was slower, but my point was that hardware specs don't suddenly get gimped because of the storage medium (what the OP is saying).

360 had the edge performance-wise for a long time vs the PS3. It was a GPU bottleneck, nothing to do with the optical disc.

Of course Blu-Ray offers more space for high-res cutscenes, but that's another matter.

 

[DanielsM]

Thank god for the unignore option, this thread is the epic.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I've checked this thread and was looking for a single post defending Freedom....and I couldn't find one. Feel free to find one.

 

[LordOfChaos]

With the PS4's horrible, horrible SATA over USB bus that kneecapped SSDs, too....

Cerny showed Spiderman loading in 0.8 seconds on the new hardware vs 20 seconds, why did this even make it past that lol. Maybe it would be 0.5 seconds because of the DRM! But clearly, the install media is no bottleneck to the SSD.

I think I'm just enjoying the gore now.

 

[Clear]

No because the software isn't proprietary.

You can't play a PS4 disc on an Xbox One because of proprietary software. That software also downloads with the rest of the game when you put it on the SSD.

I gave very clear step by steps above, please give it a read.

No. YOU need to read and understand the following:

The blu-ray is just a container. Nothing runs from it. Past the initial install process, where its contents are transferred to the HDD, it is only ever accessed in order to validate that the copy is legitimate. It effectively acts like a dongle when a digital license is not present/applicable.

During the copying process, additional actions can be performed, such as unpacking compressed sections, or concatenating/splitting files for optimizing seek latency. Because once on a high-speed storage medium like a HDD, the primary way that performance can be maximized is by serializing access. Rather than having the drive-head constantly jumping from file-to-file in order to get to the desired data, its better to seek forwards/backwards within larger contiguous blocks.

Seek-time however gets much less significant when you move from a mechanical mass-storage device like a traditional platter-based HDD (optical drives are even worse) to a solid state mechanism.

So in fact, Blu-Ray is even better suited to preload SSD's than any other method. Because the inherent drawbacks of optical media are erased by the advantages of SSD devices. You can simply use the Blu-Ray to serially stream across data in bulk, and then run a post-copy reorganization/validation pass on the data on the SDD where it will execute at an optimal rate due to that device class having massive advantages in terms of read/write/seek times.

 

[Negotiator]

With the PS4's horrible, horrible SATA over USB bus that kneecapped SSDs, too....

I keep reading this a lot, but is there any definite proof about it?

I mean, USB 3.0 offers 5 Gbps, which is a lot more than SATA2 can possibly offer, so I don't see any bottleneck there... unless it's USB 2.0, which is highly unlikely (max 30 MB/s is below SDK requirements):

 

[LordOfChaos]

I keep reading this a lot, but is there any definite proof about it?

I mean, USB 3.0 offers 5 Gbps, which is a lot more than SATA2 can possibly offer, so I don't see any bottleneck there... unless it's USB 2.0, which is highly unlikely (max 30 MB/s is below SDK requirements):

The problem with USB has always been in the CPU overhead and latency, and the ARM IO processor in the PS4 also seemed to be underpowered (it had to wake up the APU for background downloads for instance, the original vision was for it to take over such functions).

So definitive proof that the bridge is at fault, I suppose not really, but between the unnecessary overhead of USB and the IO processor, something in the PS4 meant it didn't gain as much from SSDs as it should, though of course this isn't to play into the OPs point since they're still several times faster than blu rays once installed to.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I keep reading this a lot, but is there any definite proof about it?

I mean, USB 3.0 offers 5 Gbps, which is a lot more than SATA2 can possibly offer, so I don't see any bottleneck there... unless it's USB 2.0, which is highly unlikely (max 30 MB/s is below SDK requirements):

The PS4 uses USB 3.1.

Tech Specs

www.playstation.com

 

[Afro Republican]

Does this beat Smokes "the human eye can only see 30fps" for thread of the year?

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

All this bullshit and Sony has not even revealed PS5 officially. There won't be enough salt in the oceans for the day Sony unveils all their next-gen stuff.

 

[Negotiator]

It is USB 2, and USB 2 is can transfer around 60MB/s. The teardown by ifixit shows the bridge part number.

480 megabits per second (mbps) =60 megabytes per second (MBps), minus some overhead, my USB 2.0 hard drives would transfer ~50MBps

Max speed on USB 2.0 drives is 30 MB/s (exactly half of the 480 Mbps theoretical speed). Something to do with half-duplex transfers. USB 3.0 is more efficient and it also supports DMA transfers.

So both HDDs and SSDs are capped at 30 MB/s max on every PS4 console (including the Pro)? That's horrible, if true.

But then again, I don't understand why Bungie says they have 30-45 MB/s at their disposal for Destiny 1 (that's with the old 2014 SDK, mind you).

The PS4 uses USB 3.1.

Tech Specs

www.playstation.com

We're talking about the internal SATA-USB bridge on OG PS4 (not sure about Slim/Pro) that exists in the southbridge, not external USB ports.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Max speed on USB 2.0 drives is 30 MB/s (exactly half of the 480 Mbps theoretical speed). Something to do with half-duplex transfers. USB 3.0 is more efficient and it also supports DMA transfers.

So both HDDs and SSDs are capped at 30 MB/s max on every PS4 console (including the Pro)? That's horrible, if true.

But then again, I don't understand why Bungie says they have 30-45 MB/s at their disposal for Destiny 1 (that's with the old 2014 SDK, mind you).


We're talking about the internal SATA-USB bridge on OG PS4 (not sure about Slim/Pro) that exists in the southbridge, not external USB ports.

Sorry, ninja'ed you, it's actually 3.1

Something conspicuous though is the PS4 used SATA II, and the Pro used SATA III, but even then didn't gain as much in speed. Cerny alluded to something in the IO stack limiting it in the Wired interview.

“The raw read speed is important,“ Cerny says, “but so are the details of the I/O [input-output] mechanisms and the software stack that we put on top of them. I got a PlayStation 4 Pro and then I put in a SSD that cost as much as the PlayStation 4 Pro—it might be one-third faster." As opposed to 19 times faster for the next-gen console, judging from the fast-travel demo.

 

[ph33rknot]

Somebody is still upset that HD DVD got crushed.

Netflix Hulu youtube have crushed both

 

[Negotiator]

The problem with USB has always been in the CPU overhead and latency, and the ARM IO processor in the PS4 also seemed to be underpowered (it had to wake up the APU for background downloads for instance, the original vision was for it to take over such functions).

So definitive proof that the bridge is at fault, I suppose not really, but between the unnecessary overhead of USB and the IO processor, something in the PS4 meant it didn't gain as much from SSDs as it should, though of course this isn't to play into the OPs point since they're still several times faster than blu rays once installed to.

I'd love to know the exact specs (uarch, frequency, core count) of that mysterious ARM CPU. It's so woefully underpowered that it cannot even handle an http/TCP transfer (PSN downloads) in rest mode? Even a 386 CPU can do that.

If you're suggesting that all SATA transfers have to run through the ARM CPU for some weird reason (DRM decryption/validation?) that might explain some things.

I'll do some extensive research tomorrow about that Marvell southbridge to see if it indeed uses USB 2.0, because that seems like a royal fuck-up for a brilliant engineer like Cerny.

For now I have this one, which says it supports USB 3.0, nothing about USB 2.0: https://www.psdevwiki.com/ps4/Aeolia

Sorry, ninja'ed you, it's actually 3.1

Something conspicuous though is the PS4 used SATA II, and the Pro used SATA III, but even then didn't gain as much in speed. Cerny alluded to something in the IO stack limiting it in the Wired interview.

What if the speed is capped to also accommodate OS tasks (PSN downloads, PVR etc) while playing?

That would explain why Bungie only had 30-45 MB/s back in 2014. The 500GB HDD offers up to 100 MB/s, so they definitely do not get the full speed.

IIRC, MS also has a similar reservation scheme (seems a common practice in consoles) and they actually increased it for Scorpio (to offer faster loading times).

I'd love it if Cerny could address this mystery after the PS5 release. Those damn PS4 NDAs... everything is so secretive!

 

[LordOfChaos]

I'd love to know the exact specs (uarch, frequency, core count) of that mysterious ARM CPU. It's so woefully underpowered that it cannot even handle an http/TCP transfer (PSN downloads) in rest mode? Even a 386 CPU can do that.

If you're suggesting that all SATA transfers have to run through the ARM CPU for some weird reason (DRM decryption/validation?) that might explain some things.

As I understand it, it does just that. Based off ARM TrustZone perhaps?
https://cturt.github.io/ps4-2.html

What if the speed is capped to also accommodate OS tasks (PSN downloads, PVR etc) while playing?

That would explain why Bungie only had 30-45 MB/s back in 2014. The 500GB HDD offers up to 100 MB/s, so they definitely do not get the full speed.

IIRC, MS also has a similar reservation scheme (seems a common practice in consoles) and they actually increased it for Scorpio (to offer faster loading times).

I'd love it if Cerny could address this mystery after the PS5 release. Those damn PS4 NDAs... everything is so secretive!

Yeah that's possible, it could be the reservation for the always on video recording and background downloads etc. But if you had a reservation in MB/s or even a fixed fraction to do that stuff, you would still think you'd benefit to a greater degree from SSDs. So something in the IO stack does seem the culprit, as Cerny seemed to allude to above.

Besides that, HDDs transfer nowhere near their peak speeds when moving batches of multiple files, or even the position of the file on the drive makes a difference, so that would explain some of Bungies number I would think, 100MB/s is the peak but 45 is the guaranteed service level or something.

 

[FranXico]

This thread is hilarious, thank you Freedom Gate Co.

LMAO

 

[Gamernyc78]

Tempted to unignore him so I can see the comedy act.... something tells me this is glorious and I'm missing out.

Yeah I'm about to add him to the other propoganda spinners/fanboys on my ignore list. This is insane

 

[Afro Republican]

The timing of this thread is horrible for Op because some people think he's attacking the PS5 as an Xbox fan when in reality he really just hates Blu Ray.

Of course it doesn't help that he doesn't know how game installs work. Or how data transfers work. Or how Video Games work. Or how storage mediums work. Or how SSD drives work. Or how disc lasers work Or how speed works. Or how profits work. Or how..........

 

[Son_of_Zardoz]

Hey gang, let's not jump to conclusions. We should at least wait for Mr. Timothy Bunton's presentation at E3 before making any decisions.

 

[CJY]

Ok you guys don't seem to be getting it, so after this post we can agree to disagree but it's clear some of you don't understand how this works. This post is for you.

STEP !:

When you have a PS5 disc that Bluray disc only works for the PS5. It won't install on an Xbox, that's because of software in the disc that's made specifically for the PlayStation. We clear?

STEP 2:

When you install your PS5 disc to a SSD, it downloads the game files, AND the proprietary software to the storage. Because the Install requires a PS5 to run. If you move that same install to an Xbox SSD, it won't boot.

STEP 3:

Now that all that is cleared up, here's the part that's hanging up everyone in the thread. So pay attention now, when you make machine specific software inside a BR disc, it has to keep in mind the size and TYPE of BR disc that the software is being installed in. Ok we good?

STEP 4:

Because of Step 4, when you install the game to your SSD drive, that install had the same limitations outside the disc as on the disc.

STEP 5:

Finally, because of Step 4, when you have a fast SSD drive, the game will not take advantage of those load times because the installed data has a cap. SSD drives have much fasters speeds than Bluray. This means that even with a SSD, the game you installed will only run as fast as what the limit on the disc was.

So what I am getting at is that it's useless to use the Bluray format for the PS5 if you can't even take advantage of the SSD.

That's all I'm saying.

Hopefully that finally clears everything up.

Stop being so utterly ridiculous. There is no agreeing to disagree. It's clear you have no clue what you are talking about. It's obvious in this post you're as daft as a brush.

It's like saying a jpg file won't load quicker from a HD if that jpg file was once on a floppy disk. It's very stupid.

 

[CJY]

Nob

They have to change it back anyway, I didn't give THEM permission to mess with my account.



The disc has software that knows the disc is in an Xbox. That's different from the store where it's just a digital file. You don't need to format it for a disc.

Nobody has to change back shit.

 

[hououinkyouma00]

They have to change it back anyway, I didn't give THEM permission to mess with my account.

The disc has software that knows the disc is in an Xbox. That's different from the store where it's just a digital file. You don't need to format it for a disc.

You are fucking delusional.

 

[CJY]

No, the machine without the drive can't move the disc fast enough to reach it's maximum cap the drive can.

All I'm saying is the SSD can't move the game faster than the maximum cap.

That's all I'm saying.

And "all you're saying" is wrong, stupid and ill-informed. Please stop.

 

[CJY]

You guys are dumb. OP is right.

You can copy Blu Ray files to an SSD but that doesn’t magically give them SSD speed. They’re still Blu Ray files so they always run at Blu Ray speed.

Learn more about technology, SonyGAF.

Obviously an alt account.

 

[Orenji Neko]

Don’t burn any files you have on your computer to a Blu-ray disc, it will slow all of them down when you drag them back off to another computer, or something.

This is pretty much what he's implying, isn't it? It really is.... Well in that case:



I fully expect the expert, Timothy Bunton, to be the equivalent of:

 

[Lord Malachite]

Post seems silly. Blu-Ray has a huge storage capacity and is the preffered physical delivery method for most large games. Post install, very little data is pulled from the disc during gameplay.

Is this just an "I hate Blu-ray" rant?