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[Biff Hardbody]

I'm going to quote your post in different sections, not to be a prick trying to break it down, but to get my beliefs on it.

Naw, my point is that it's a sport. It was created for Sport, based on the old challenge matches from the early days.

I'm not sure about that at all. I heard San Shou/San Da was created by the Chinese miliary so their soldiers would have a quick and effective fighting style. Soucre, Tim Cartmell of Shenwu.com-

"When the Chinese army was researching and developing their hand to hand combat (which later evolved into the modern San Shou/San Da tournament fighting popular today), they researched all the popular forms of martial arts (including their own). The conclusion was that Western boxing hand techniques (when it came to developing practical striking and defensive abilities in a reasonable amount of time) were superior to all others (including their own). Other (Chinese) hand techniques were included to round out the training, but the foundation of San Shou hand techniques is Western boxing."

raditional Chinese Martial arts (traditional striking arts in general)aren't generally suited for sport in their original forms, because the competition version depends alot more on muscle strength and the like than a real life altercation would.

I practice Hsing I, Tai Chi, and Ba Gua and I can apply my arts with boxing gloves on. Its true, the glove does change some things. Bare knuckle does work best, but, its fairly easy to modify for gloves. I use my Hsing I just fine in a clinch, in fact that's my favorite thing to do in boxing.

As far as muscular strength, that is very important in a real life altercation. Even if a man is small, he better make sure his body is a tank if he's going to be a fighter. Leg strength is incredibly important both for striking and grappling. Heck, my Tai Chi and Ba Gua has made my forearms and shoulders much bigger then before. I earnestly believe that proper muscular strength is very important for fighting. You can have the best body mechanics in the world, if you don't have the strength to use them you are in trouble.

Sanda is a combination of more freeform Kung Fu and Shuai Jiao, not because those systems are more effective overall, but because they work best in a sport setting.

To me, Sand Da looks like a combination of western boxing, Thai and Northern Chinese kicking, little Shuai Chaio, and free style wrestling take downs. I've seen lots of tape on Chang Tung Sheng, but I never saw him throw a german suplex like many San Da fighters do. To me, San Da is far more Western then Asian in style and look.

No one is seriously hurt, the fights are fast and non lethal, etc etc. The psychology behind it is totally different. It's not meant to be a "real fight" or anything like that, it's a game. Like all of them are, despite what their maketing wants you to believe.

I've taken two or three concussions boxing and handed out a few of my own. While I wasn't in the hospital, I got hurt worse in boxing then I ever did in a "real fight". After someone kicks me in the balls and then punches me in the face while I can't get my hands up, you better believe I'm trying to hurt them.

If you are lucky (or prepared) the fights are fast. Or, they can go on for 30+ minutes. Keep in mind this is a setting where 30 seconds can feel like a livig hell if you don't have fighting condition.

To me, its not a game. Look at the condition of most retired boxing champions, they are men who have been in wars. Not games.

Because really, it isn't as simple as 'fighters fight like they train', they fight according to their enviroment. San Da isn't a statement on the current state of the Chinese Martial Arts, it's just a sport.

I agree with you, enviroment does play a role. But, the way one trains is a huge part of real effectiveness. The way one trains is far more important then what style they do IMO. If you are going against a resisting opponent, you are preparing yourself a bit better then someone who talks about vicious moves and devastating holds but does nothing else.

I think San Da is a huge statement by the Chinese goverment on just how far their own martial arts have deteriorated. They had to draw on outside Western sources because they found that their own stuff was ineffective for ring fighting. You can say "the ring is not the street", but my own experience shows that the ring is a very good way to prepare yourself for a "real fight". Sure, you aren't preparing yourself for weapons, enviroment, multiple attackers, or the "X-Factor" or a street fight. But, nothing will prepare you for that either. At least sport arts gives you some of the qualities of a real encounter while other martial arts just sit back and talk.

 

[karasu]

I'm not sure about that at all. I heard San Shou/San Da was created by the Chinese miliary so their soldiers would have a quick and effective fighting style. Soucre, Tim Cartmell of Shenwu.com-

"When the Chinese army was researching and developing their hand to hand combat (which later evolved into the modern San Shou/San Da tournament fighting popular today), they researched all the popular forms of martial arts (including their own). The conclusion was that Western boxing hand techniques (when it came to developing practical striking and defensive abilities in a reasonable amount of time) were superior to all others (including their own). Other (Chinese) hand techniques were included to round out the training, but the foundation of San Shou hand techniques is Western boxing."

See this is just too simple. Sanda is not THE military style, there are many. They use Western style punching partly because it's effective, partly because it';s ALWAYS been a pa of Kung Fu (Difference being the footwork), and it isn't all they use. If speed of applicability is what they're looking for, it would be silly to rely on the majority of traditional arts as they're meant to be honed over time. That's not saying anything against Traditional Arts in the slightest. Especially considering that punching is generally useless in both Muay Thai and Sanda, its the least used tactic in the ring. A Thai fighter would rather elbow you, and a Sanda man will rather throw you.

I practice Hsing I, Tai Chi, and Ba Gua and I can apply my arts with boxing gloves on. Its true, the glove does change some things. Bare knuckle does work best, but, its fairly easy to modify for gloves. I use my Hsing I just fine in a clinch, in fact that's my favorite thing to do in boxing.

It probably doesn't look like Tai chi, and considering the internal nature of those styles their principles would be a little easier to apply, especially in a clinch. But dude, Sanda fighters in China spendat least two years learning nothing but traditional Kung Fu and Qiqong, the drills are pure Shaolin, they don't look like a Kung Fu movie because that just doesn't work so hot in the ring. It never has.

As far as muscular strength, that is very important in a real life altercation. Even if a man is small, he better make sure his body is a tank if he's going to be a fighter. Leg strength is incredibly important both for striking and grappling. Heck, my Tai Chi and Ba Gua has made my forearms and shoulders much bigger then before. I earnestly believe that proper muscular strength is very important for fighting. You can have the best body mchanics in the world, if you don't have the strength to use them you are in trouble.

Sure it's important, but real fights rely alot less on pounding and repeititon. Generally they're over pretty fast. In the ring you kick and kick and kick and kick your opponents leg over and over. You punch and punch and punch and punch until your opponent goes loopy. In the ring you aren't trying to disable your opponent by damagiong his joints or anything which is what traditional martial arts are all about. But you're trying to keep sustained pressure on his limbs , you kick his outer thigh constantly so that eventually it'll be hard for him to stand on and hurt his reaction time. You're trying to beat the fight out of him, in the streets you don't do that, you end it, plain and simple. (keep in mind this is not in anyway saying that sports don't prepare people for fighting, I'm merely pointing out the differences, because this is why Sanda doesn't look like traditional kung fu, no sport striking variant looks like it's traditional model)

To me, Sand Da looks like a combination of western boxing, Thai and Northern Chinese kicking, little Shuai Chaio, and free style wrestling take downs. I've seen lots of tape on Chang Tung Sheng, but I never saw him throw a german suplex like many San Da fighters do. To me, San Da is far more Western then Asian in style and look.

That's fine, but to most it looks more eastern, in that they think it's Muay Thai with a heavier emphasis on throws lol.

I've taken two or three concussions boxing and handed out a few of my own. While I wasn't in the hospital, I got hurt worse in boxing then I ever did in a "real fight". After someone kicks me in the balls and then punches me in the face while I can't get my hands up, you better believe I'm trying to hurt them.

I'm not saying that people don't get hurt in sports, again I'm not speaking from a Sport VERSUS real life state of mind. I'm simply pointing out the differences. The POINT of the sport is not to seriously harm you, but it happens. That's why you have protection, refs, doctors,cronermen, and know where the attacks are coming from. The psychology is very different, due to the method.

If you are lucky (or prepared) the fights are fast. Or, they can go on for 30+ minutes. Keep in mind this is a setting where 30 seconds can feel like a livig hell if you don't have fighting condition.

To me, its not a game. Look at the condition of most retired boxing champions, they are men who have been in wars. Not games.

No, there are football players who can no longer walk, it doesn't change the fact that it's a sport/game. It's one you can get hurt in sure, but it's still a sport/game. It's not a war iby any stretch. If it were, Mike Tysons little biting incident would have been completely and totally kosher. The fact that people are hurt kinda proves my point, about the focus on muscle strength, thanks to the boxing gloves. Boxing wasn't alays like that, but since now that their weapons are cushioned by the gloves, they have to punch even harder, and for a longer amount of time, over and over again to damage their opponent That's what I mean, that's why Kung Fu won't happen in the ring. Nobody boxes like the bareknuckle days when in the ring, but that is NOT to say that a bareknuckle style boxer couldn't kick the shit out of a modern dude in the real world once his weapons are free to act as they're meant to.

I agree with you, enviroment does play a role. But, the way one trains is a huge part of real effectiveness. The way one trains is far more important then what style they do IMO. If you are going against a resisting opponent, you are preparing yourself a bit better then someone who talks about vicious moves and devastating holds but does nothing else.

Agreed.

I think San Da is a huge statement by the Chinese goverment on just how far their own martial arts have deteriorated. They had to draw on outside Western sources because they found that their own stuff was ineffective for ring fighting. You can say "the ring is not the street", but my own experience shows that the ring is a very good way to prepare yourself for a "real fight". Sure, you aren't preparing yourself for weapons, enviroment, multiple attackers, or the "X-Factor" or a street fight. But, nothing will prepare you for that either. At least sport arts gives you some of the qualities of a real encounter while other martial arts just sit back and talk.

Well, it isn't like Sanda is the dominant Martial Art in china dude. It's no more of a statement on Kung Fu than Modern Wushu performance is! It's just a sport. There are PLENTY of military styles all with different focuses. Some rely more on Xingyi type hands than they do what's commonly known as "Western" type hands, some rely far more on grappling, etc etc etc. If mArtial Arts in China have deteriorated it's because the PRC bvanned them forcing a good number of the traditional master s to leave China and take up residence in Taiwan lol. YOu shouldn't judge Kung Fu by Sanda anymore than you would Karate by K1. Or even real Tae Kwon Do by the Olympic Version. As tough as sports and fights in the ring are, they're neutered because they have a different purpose, and of course Laws of the land lol. We aren't like the ancient greeks, or Chinese Pirates. Our pugilistic battles aren't to the death.

 

[Biff Hardbody]

See this is just too simple. Sanda is not THE military style, there are many. They use Western style punching partly because it's effective, partly because it';s ALWAYS been a pa of Kung Fu (Difference being the footwork), and it isn't all they use. If speed of applicability is what they're looking for, it would be silly to rely on the majority of traditional arts as they're meant to be honed over time. That's not saying anything against Traditional Arts in the slightest. Especially considering that punching is generally useless in both Muay Thai and Sanda, its the least used tactic in the ring. A Thai fighter would rather elbow you, and a Sanda man will rather throw you.

You make a good point, because I don't like generalizations either. However, its telling that the Chinese goverment drew from outside sources for one of their martial arts (possibly their main). Saying that western punching has always been in it but the difference is footwork is simply opinion, and one I differ with. I see similarities between western boxing and styles of Kung Fu, the movement of the body is finite after all. That being said, its sort of like saying Vitor Belfort used Wing Chun chain punching to KO Wanderlei Silva. One can draw similarities between the two, but in the end it was straight up boxing that beat Silva that day. That's why I can't agree with your point that they chose western boxing partially because they are similar. They chose it because it was better for their aim then what they had at the time. I do agree about punching in San Da/Muay Thai though, its generally weak.

It probably doesn't look like Tai chi, and considering the internal nature of those styles their principles would be a little easier to apply, especially in a clinch. But dude, Sanda fighters in China spendat least two years learning nothing but traditional Kung Fu and Qiqong, the drills are pure Shaolin, they don't look like a Kung Fu movie because that just doesn't work so hot in the ring. It never has.

Why do you think it wouldn't look like Tai Chi?

I won't pretend to be aware of exactly what the san da fighters learn in China, or why they learn it. However, what I have seen them do in the ring when they are fighting is drastically different from Shaolin Kung Fu. Do you think their Shaolin really helps them? Or are they just holding onto it for cultural purpouses?

I don't understand what you mean by "internal nature". I know these arts are referred to as "Internal martial arts", but everyone has different definitions of internal martial arts. Some people consider Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to be internal, while others scoff at that idea. If you gave me your definition and why it would be easier for me to apply those styles, then I can understand where you are coming from. Otherwise it just seems like a phrase tossed around to me.

As far as making Kung Fu work in the ring, well I boxed yesterday. I used Beng Chuan, Pao Quan, and swallow movement from Hsing I when I got into the clinch, and peng from Tai Chi to strike from far away. I did ok. It didn't look like a Kung Fu movie, but nothing looks like a Kung Fu movie, ring or not. It did look like what I was taught though.

Sure it's important, but real fights rely alot less on pounding and repeititon. Generally they're over pretty fast. In the ring you kick and kick and kick and kick your opponents leg over and over. You punch and punch and punch and punch until your opponent goes loopy. In the ring you aren't trying to disable your opponent by damagiong his joints or anything which is what traditional martial arts are all about. But you're trying to keep sustained pressure on his limbs , you kick his outer thigh constantly so that eventually it'll be hard for him to stand on and hurt his reaction time. You're trying to beat the fight out of him, in the streets you don't do that, you end it, plain and simple. (keep in mind this is not in anyway saying that sports don't prepare people for fighting, I'm merely pointing out the differences, because this is why Sanda doesn't look like traditional kung fu, no sport striking variant looks like it's traditional model)

I think why we disagree in this case is because we see real and sport fights a bit differently. Breaking someones joint is much harder then it seems. It looks cool as hell in Collateral, but against someone moving around in real life its not that easy. If it was, you'd see more people doing it in MMA where fighting techniques are constantly tested.

I agree with your mindset, but its just not that easy. Pro fighters don't want to spend any more time in the ring then they have to, they risk injury which can leave them out of house and home. Many are bringing that killer instinct into the ring, but they aren't going for joint breaking or other nasty moves. They aren't reliable.

I remember wrestling with someone and the topic of the UFC got brought up. He tried to discredit the fighters by saying that they don't allow such and such move, so its not really real. Only when I got my partner into the mount positon and elbowed the mat near his head did he understand how dangerous some of the tools they allow are. Boxing and MMA can be incredibly brutal.

Obviously I don't think MMA and boxing are the be all end all of fighting, because my main school is an internal martial arts school. However, its ludicrous to think that you can just end it if you want to. Especially when you have men fighting with few rules and their fights can go on and on.

That's fine, but to most it looks more eastern, in that they think it's Muay Thai with a heavier emphasis on throws lol.

That's basically how I describe it when asked. "Kickboxing with throws" is what I ussually say.

No, there are football players who can no longer walk, it doesn't change the fact that it's a sport/game. It's one you can get hurt in sure, but it's still a sport/game. It's not a war iby any stretch. If it were, Mike Tysons little biting incident would have been completely and totally kosher. The fact that people are hurt kinda proves my point, about the focus on muscle strength, thanks to the boxing gloves. Boxing wasn't alays like that, but since now that their weapons are cushioned by the gloves, they have to punch even harder, and for a longer amount of time, over and over again to damage their opponent That's what I mean, that's why Kung Fu won't happen in the ring. Nobody boxes like the bareknuckle days when in the ring, but that is NOT to say that a bareknuckle style boxer couldn't kick the shit out of a modern dude in the real world once his weapons are free to act as they're meant to.

Pro football isn't a game, its like nuclear war-Frank Gifford.

I could go on and on with quotes and stories about football, but you get my point I think. Call football "a game". The fact of the matter is you can get severely injured playing it, and that makes it dangerous. Same with boxing. I call chess a game, I don't call boxing a game. When severe bodily harm is involved, I think it best to classify it as something a little more serious.

Well, it isn't like Sanda is the dominant Martial Art in china dude. It's no more of a statement on Kung Fu than Modern Wushu performance is! It's just a sport. There are PLENTY of military styles all with different focuses. Some rely more on Xingyi type hands than they do what's commonly known as "Western" type hands, some rely far more on grappling, etc etc etc. If mArtial Arts in China have deteriorated it's because the PRC bvanned them forcing a good number of the traditional master s to leave China and take up residence in Taiwan lol. YOu shouldn't judge Kung Fu by Sanda anymore than you would Karate by K1. Or even real Tae Kwon Do by the Olympic Version. As tough as sports and fights in the ring are, they're neutered because they have a different purpose, and of course Laws of the land lol. We aren't like the ancient greeks, or Chinese Pirates. Our pugilistic battles aren't to the death.

Really? what martial art is the dominant one in China? I'm talking about ones that actually fight now, not ones that do forms all day and nothing else. Because it was my impression from everything I've heard and seen that San Da fighters are generally the best China has to offer nowadays. I think China was much stronger a long time ago, with afar better class of fighter. But today? The San Da guys in China can kick the shit out of the Hsing I guys. I'm ashamed to say it, but its true. Don't believe me? Read any reports about the two fighting now adays. Its not unheard of for a traditional martial artist to beat the shit out of a modern fighter, I've heard of it and seen it. But, its uncommon.

I do judge allot of arts by what type of fighters they produce. I look at Karate, and I think the Kyokushin K-1 fighters of today are probably better fighters then Mas Oyama ever was. At the same time, I keep an open mind and realize that these fighting platforms while a good indicator of what works/doesn't are not the authority on martial arts. Things have been lost, things are being rediscovered.

 

[karasu]

You make a good point, because I don't like generalizations either. However, its telling that the Chinese goverment drew from outside sources for one of their martial arts (possibly their main). Saying that western punching has always been in it but the difference is footwork is simply opinion, and one I differ with. I see similarities between western boxing and styles of Kung Fu, the movement of the body is finite after all. That being said, its sort of like saying Vitor Belfort used Wing Chun chain punching to KO Wanderlei Silva. One can draw similarities between the two, but in the end it was straight up boxing that beat Silva that day. That's why I can't agree with your point that they chose western boxing partially because they are similar. They chose it because it was better for their aim then what they had at the time. I do agree about punching in San Da/Muay Thai though, its generally weak.

dude Westerners didn't create jabs and uppercuts. There are equivalents all over the world. The difference is in the footwork. But yeah even in Shaolin villiage some people practice boxing, it's an olympic sport, and the most popular combat sport in existence. I have no idea why that's surprising or what it's suppossed to mean.

Why do you think it wouldn't look like Tai Chi?

I won't pretend to be aware of exactly what the san da fighters learn in China, or why they learn it. However, what I have seen them do in the ring when they are fighting is drastically different from Shaolin Kung Fu. Do you think their Shaolin really helps them? Or are they just holding onto it for cultural purpouses?

Sure it really helps them,, its the backbone of everything they do. It's almost like asking if push ups helped Sakuraba or if Squats and Muay Thai helped Royce Gracie.

I don't understand what you mean by "internal nature". I know these arts are referred to as "Internal martial arts", but everyone has different definitions of internal martial arts. Some people consider Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to be internal, while others scoff at that idea. If you gave me your definition and why it would be easier for me to apply those styles, then I can understand where you are coming from. Otherwise it just seems like a phrase tossed around to me.

Internal Styles are generally softer in nature focusing on mostly open hand striking and joint manipulation. Baguas palm changes for example. I don't see how there can be any debate that Bagua and Taji are internal styles lol, that's what they've been since the beginning. While you may not personally put much energy into training Chi Kung and the like, the physical aspect of your style is based on those principles. Most Kung Fu styles have element of both internal and external, but there's a huge difference between a hard style like Shaolin Long fist, and a soft style like Bagua. They're great for clinches and the like because of their focuses on sensitivity in ranges very similar to that.

As far as making Kung Fu work in the ring, well I boxed yesterday. I used Beng Chuan, Pao Quan, and swallow movement from Hsing I when I got into the clinch, and peng from Tai Chi to strike from far away. I did ok. It didn't look like a Kung Fu movie, but nothing looks like a Kung Fu movie, ring or not. It did look like what I was taught though.

Solid.

I think why we disagree in this case is because we see real and sport fights a bit differently. Breaking someones joint is much harder then it seems. It looks cool as hell in Collateral, but against someone moving around in real life its not that easy. If it was, you'd see more people doing it in MMA where fighting techniques are constantly tested.

I haven't seen Collateral, but breaking a joint isn't as hard as you think. I think I broke a dudes arm the other week, because I havent seriously trained in a wile and I mistakenly used a block meant for that very purpose(rear hand blocks at the inside of the wrist, lead hand blocks at the elbow joint, with force). It only takes a few pounds of pressure, joints are among our weaker points.


You wouldn't see it in MMA though. Sidekicks are rare as hell there, and I've never ever seen a strike specifically targeted at a joint, not when I've competed or viewed from home.

I agree with your mindset, but its just not that easy. Pro fighters don't want to spend any more time in the ring then they have to, they risk injury which can leave them out of house and home. Many are bringing that killer instinct into the ring, but they aren't going for joint breaking or other nasty moves. They aren't reliable.

They're as reliable as any other technique, meaning there are no sure shots. You're probably more likeley to connect with a low side kick to a knee than a punch on the chin haha. Just because it's so unexpected.

I remember wrestling with someone and the topic of the UFC got brought up. He tried to discredit the fighters by saying that they don't allow such and such move, so its not really real. Only when I got my partner into the mount positon and elbowed the mat near his head did he understand how dangerous some of the tools they allow are. Boxing and MMA can be incredibly brutal.[/quote

I wouldn't try to discredit it at all, it's a sport. Is it no hold barred No rules fighting as they promote it and want the lamerz to believe? Fuck no. Is it a brutal and dangerous sport? Sure.

Obviously I don't think MMA and boxing are the be all end all of fighting, because my main school is an internal martial arts school. However, its ludicrous to think that you can just end it if you want to. Especially when you have men fighting with few rules and their fights can go on and on.

That's not what I'm saying at all. That's the psychology, Sport fighters tend to pace themselves for later rounds, go out and jab a little, wait for the ref to make a call because what your opponent is doing in the clinch is illegal, etc etc. It's just different. When you're in competition you don't have to worry about a shitload of stuff that you DO have to worry about when you're fighting out of anger or something. Street fighting is war, a man can pull a gun on you at any second or his friend can run you over with his dodge. or four of them can grab you and cut you up with razor blades (happened to a buddy) or you can be stabbed in the hand (happend to me) etc etc. Anything else is a game.

That's basically how I describe it when asked. "Kickboxing with throws" is what I ussually say.



Pro football isn't a game, its like nuclear war-Frank Gifford.

I could go on and on with quotes and stories about football, but you get my point I think. Call football "a game". The fact of the matter is you can get severely injured playing it, and that makes it dangerous. Same with boxing. I call chess a game, I don't call boxing a game. When severe bodily harm is involved, I think it best to classify it as something a little more serious.

Then anything with an element of danger is not a game. Baseball included. Football isn't war, I don't care what Frank Gifford or any quote says. We ALL grew up playing it and we ALL could have been seriously hurt at any time when playing it. Skateboarders are hurt all of the time too, but uh, it's not war. It's a dangerous act, but what isnt? If it has rules, it's a game. A dangerous game, but a game nonetheless. If you're boxing your opponents cornerman will not jump into the ring and hit you in the side of the head with a 2 x 4, and if he does your opponent will be disqualified and everything will stop and you'll be carted off to the hostital. Why? Because it's a game. A risk of injury is involved in all sports. Boxers aren't all disillusioned like many MA people, or drunk fratboys at MMA competitions seem to be. They aren't expecting the fights in the ring to happen like fights in the street. That's just a ridiculous thing to expect. It's just silly.

Really? what martial art is the dominant one in China? I'm talking about ones that actually fight now, not ones that do forms all day and nothing else. Because it was my impression from everything I've heard and seen that San Da fighters are generally the best China has to offer nowadays. I think China was much stronger a long time ago, with afar better class of fighter. But today? The San Da guys in China can kick the shit out of the Hsing I guys. I'm ashamed to say it, but its true. Don't believe me? Read any reports about the two fighting now adays. Its not unheard of for a traditional martial artist to beat the shit out of a modern fighter, I've heard of it and seen it. But, its uncommon.

Sanda is a sport, like football is a sport, like baseball is a sport, like boxing is a sport.
Sanda fighters are the best China has to offer combative sports because sanda is the offical combative sport of China, it is a sport. Why are you mixing the two up? Traditionalist do not train to fight in rings or on lei tai under ring conditions, they are not athletes. It's as pointless as putting a boxer up against a Sanda man in a ring. So what if the Sanda guy wins, it's because it's a sport and he can do more in the ring, it means little in the real world. Specifically, It doesn't mean Sanda is superior to boxing as a combat method, it doesn't mean Boxing sucks, it means the Sanda man has more at his disposal in the ring and he's used to using it in the ring, so when in the ring he has a better chance at winning because of it, plain and simple.

I do judge allot of arts by what type of fighters they produce. I look at Karate, and I think the Kyokushin K-1 fighters of today are probably better fighters then Mas Oyama ever was. At the same time, I keep an open mind and realize that these fighting platforms while a good indicator of what works/doesn't are not the authority on martial arts. Things have been lost, things are being rediscovered.

They aren't even the same thing. This is what baffles s me about alot of people who watch Martial Sports, they often seem to be looking for something absolute to believe in, and these sports are the easy solutions to all of their Martial problems. MA are not about sports, they are not about televised competition. That's but one aspect, and a new one at that. Some styles are still adapting to the sport format, Sanshou for example, and now it's pretty solid. That has shit to do with Kung Fu as a whole. You don't take Pak mei because you want to be a Sanda champion. You don't take Kicboxing for Self Defense, unless you assume that every fight is gonna start with your opponent standing two feet across from you. You don't study Hung Gar if you're looking for something that can be applied by next week at 3pm. If their are Ninja still running around on a japanese mountaintop somewhere, they aren't gonna train in general MMA to be Ninja. That isn't directly aimed at you, I respect your views.

 

[Biff Hardbody]

dude Westerners didn't create jabs and uppercuts. There are equivalents all over the world. The difference is in the footwork. But yeah even in Shaolin villiage some people practice boxing, it's an olympic sport, and the most popular combat sport in existence. I have no idea why that's surprising or what it's suppossed to mean.

No one ever said Westerners created punches. The difference being the footwork is entirely subjective opinion, myself I think the difference lies in gross and minor movements. Again, only my opinion and straying away from debating in reality.

Of course it really helps them,, its the backbone of everything they do. It's almost like asking if push ups helped Sakuraba or if Squats helped Royce Gracie.

Its not quite cut and dry as you make it out to be. Especially when their forms practice doesn't boil over to in ring performance. They might be better off doing other exercises instead of clinging onto forms from the past that they won't use in the ring. Its like taking two steps backward, one step foward.

Internal Styles are generally softer in nature focusing on mostly open hand striking and joint manipulation. Baguas palm changes for example. I don't see how there can be any debate that Bagua and Taji are internal styles lol, that's what they've been since the beginning. While you may not personally put much energy into training Chi Kung and the like, the physical aspect of your style is based on those principles. Most Kung Fu styles have element of both internal and external, but there's a huge difference between a hard style like Shaolin Long fist, and a soft style like Bagua. They're great for clinches and the like because of their focuses on sensitivity in ranges very similar to that.

Soft is the most overused word in the world to describe internal martial arts. People say Tai Chi is soft. You do your tai chi soft, your going to get pushed around, pinned and hit. Soft doesn't cut it for a good description.

There's no debate about Tai Chi or Ba Gua being internal. Again I never said that, nor did I bring it up. I just wanted to see what you thought makes these arts "internal". As I said before, many people have different opinions on what exactly internal is.

I never said anything about my own training and Chi Kung. I actually spend quite a bit of time working on it, San Ti and different postures are what I'm concentrating on now.

Solid.

Thanks.

I haven't seen Collateral, but breaking a joint isn't as hard as you think. I think I broke a dudes arm the other week, because I havent seriously trained in a wile and I mistakenly used a block meant for that very purpose(rear hand blocks at the inside of the wrist, lead hand blocks at the elbow joint, with force). It only takes a few pounds of pressure, joints are among our weaker points.


You wouldn't see it in MMA though. Sidekicks are rare as hell there, and I've never ever seen a strike specifically targeted at a joint, not when I've competed or viewed from home.

Either I'm not understanding it, or you are saying you broke someones arm with a type of one handed block? You used what, your elbow to break it? That I can see.

That's not what I'm saying at all. That's the psychology, Sport fighters tend to pace themselves for later rounds, go out and jab a little, wait for the ref to make a call because what your opponent is doing in the clinch is illegal, etc etc. It's just different. When you're in competition you don't have to worry about a shitload of stuff that you DO have to worry about when you're fighting out of anger or something. Street fighting is war, a man can pull a gun on you at any second or his friend can run you over with his dodge. or four of them can grab you and cut you up with razor blades (happened to a buddy) or you can be stabbed in the hand (happend to me) etc etc. Anything else is a game.

I agree with the first part of your statement, however I take issue with the 2nd. This is the type of statement that reeks of the to deadly for the ring attitude I've come across many times. I've already made it abundantly clear that I recognize that there is a huge difference between "real" fighting and sport fighting. However, to call anything else a game discredits your argument to me. These "games" can be exceptionally brutal. I won't go into how they can help prepare you better then the alternative training (talking), because I think you recognize that fact.

Then anything with an element of danger is not a game. Baseball included. Football isn't war, I don't care what Frank Gifford or any quote says. We ALL grew up playing it and we ALL could have been seriously hurt at any time when playing it. Skateboarders are hurt all of the time too, but uh, it's not war. It's a dangerous act, but what isnt? If it has rules, it's a game. A dangerous game, but a game nonetheless. If you're boxing your opponents cornerman will not jump into the ring and hit you in the side of the head with a 2 x 4, and if he does your opponent will be disqualified and everything will stop and you'll be carted off to the hostital. Why? Because it's a game. A risk of injury is involved in all sports. Boxers aren't all disillusioned like MA people, or drunk fratboys at MMA competitions seem to be. They aren't expecting the fights in the ring to happen like fights in the street. That's just a ridiculous thing to expect. It's just silly.

Now you are generalzing my statement to fit your argument. My point is this, some sports have a very serious risk for practicioners, some are far more "combat" minded. They can be KOed, crippled, and in extreme cases killed by another man using his bare hands. To say "Its just a game" completely disrespects what they do and the type of intensity and athelticism they bring to their field. As far as the skateboarding and children part of your argument, that's just silly. Kids can get so mad they try and kill eachother in a fight, but they end up tusseling like well...kids.

I also have to say this. You seem to be lumping me into the same category you do with the guys who buy the no fear beanies and watch Gracie in action tapes while they get a hard on. I assure you, that's the farthest thing from what I am, and I've tried to make that clear by showing you I am open minded enough to make an internal school my main place of study. At the same, I'm also open minded enough to watch MMA and other combat sports and realize the ability of these athletes and take what I can from it.

They aren't even the same thing. This is what baffles s me about people who watch Martial Sports, they often seem to be looking for something absolute to believe in, and these sports are the easy solutions to all of their Martial problems. MA are not about sports, they are not about televised competition. That's but one aspect, and a new one at that. Some styles are still adapting to the sport format, Sanshou for example, and now it's pretty solid. That has shit to do with Kung Fu as a whole. You don't take Pak mei because you want to be a Sanda champion. You don't take Kicboxing for Self Defense, unless you assume that every fight is gonna start with your opponent standing two feet across from you. You don't study Hung Gar if you're looking for something that can be applied by next week at 3pm. If their are Ninja still running around on a japanese mountaintop somewhere, they aren't gonna train in general MMA to be Ninja.

I partially agree with your stament here. I believe you should take what fits your aims. However, I think it is a cop out to say "well, my Kung Fu can't help me in the ring because it wasn't made for that. However, I am very deadly in a real encounter, whatever that may be. Show you?No, I'd have to kill you if I were to show you. Go back to your silly sport fighting".

I'm not saying this is the type of martial artist you are, you probably aren't as you sound like a very level headed guy. Personally I can't call myself a martial artist if someone says lets play with or without the gloves. I want to be complete enough to compete in both arenas. I respect your views as well, and have no malice in my argument towards you.

 

[karasu]

Yeah, I'm pretty much gonna bow out now. I tend to stay away from MA forums because I hate arguing about the martial arts, but somehow I've done it twice here this week haha. But two things:

oft is the most overused word in the world to describe internal martial arts. People say Tai Chi is soft. You do your tai chi soft, your going to get pushed around, pinned and hit. Soft doesn't cut it for a good description.

Soft as in they tend to use the opponents own momentum and force against him. It's not a put down or anything, that's just what they are. They're based on Taoist principles, which dictate that soft always overcomes hard. You seem to be taking issues with words like "Soft" and "game" and that's more about what you personally associate the words with than me. They aren't insults at all, but come on, games have rules, reality doesn't. And if real fights do have rules there are no penalties for breaking them(including real fights(outside of the ring) between Pro fighters). Soft does cut it as a description, the key is in not being a literalist.

I partially agree with your stament here. I believe you should take what fits your aims. However, I think it is a cop out to say "well, my Kung Fu can't help me in the ring because it wasn't made for that. However, I am very deadly in a real encounter, whatever that may be. Show you?No, I'd have to kill you if I were to show you. Go back to your silly sport fighting".

But here, this is not what I meant at all. And really the point of training isn't to show anybody anything. It's just the facts, martial arts were created for a few reasons, one of them is to cause serious bodily harm. In Wing Chun for example, Bil Jee the third and final hand form, is the emergency form. It's meant for life and death, it's not meant to win any competition for money. It's a form that contains techniques you'd use if you were on the bottom end of a fight in the street, but the techniques would be ridiculous to use if you were on the bottom end of a fight in a sporting competition (It's nearly all finger jabs all aimed at soft areas of the human body, all delvivered as fast as possible, nothing complex). YOu don't try to blind people for sport. That's not a knock against anything, it's just the facts, there are undeniable differences in intent and application. Ignoring them is pointless. In everyday life if some guy comes at you or your loved ones with a broken bottle,knives or a pole and retreat isn't an option, you'd better be ready to do some major damage as quickly and efficiently as you can.. If it happens in the ring(it won't), call the fucking ref. It isn't aabout whether sport fighters can fight in the street or not, that has nothing to do with anything I'm saying. Of course they could. Calling the sport a game is not an insult at all, I've competed alot and onlys topped because I did some jenky crap to my knee. if I thought it sucked I wouldn't have been a part of it with every intention of going to the pro levels, but even with the risk involved, I see it as a game. It's a game of who can beat who under rules laid out long before I ever took part in it, the fights are decided in a room somewhere, the fights are judged by outsiders and controlled by a ref so they don't get TOO dangerous. Sure you can be hurt, but the rules dictate that you can only be hurt by ONE person in a controlled enviroment etc etc etc. Dangerous sure, a dangerous game.

 

[Biff Hardbody]

I'll bow out to. I stay away from martial arts forums for the same reasons. Thank you for debating with me, it was good. I see your points clearer now, and really don't take issue.

 

[karasu]

cool man. The feeling is mutual.

 

[Boogie]

Good show, gentlemen. I'm a little late to contribute anything (not that I could anyway, since my knowledge of Kung fu/Chinese styles is very limited), but kudos.

 

[ToyMachine228]

I just started weight lifting this summer, just so I could look a little bit better. It gives you a bit more confidence, as you gain more muscle. I just lift at my house...I have a weight bench, a large benching bar, and a one handed curling bar, so it's not so bad. Just throw on some music, and get lifting. It's not like I'm out of shape...Just wanted to gain some extra muscle.