Support NeoGAF

[squid]

Hm, would've been nice to have a first party game in 1080p for launch window. Oh well.

Unrelated, the Nintendoland main hub area kinda reminded me of Banjo Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts in its visuals, which is very much a good thing since that's one of the 360's most beautiful games IMO. There's even the robot-like host character!

 

[Effect]

Is it a big deal that Zombi U is only 30 fps?

I don't think so. It doesn't seem twitch based. It's not Call of Duty or Unreal in how it plays.

 

[lednerg]

...
It doesn't seem like it's doing its job though. Watching the reticule gradually drift while people were flinging shuriken in Takamaru's Ninja Castle was really irritating (and depressing). Maybe Nintendo just hasn't taken advantage of it yet, but I dunno...

Did other games have drift in them? This is the first I'm hearing about it at all. If there is drift, then the game software itself is not using the magnetometer. This could be because they hadn't programmed for one (yet?), or because this early version of the gamepad doesn't have one. We do know that what they showed at E3 wasn't the final retail version of the gamepad, since Reggie said in an interview that the AC adapter port would be moved to the bottom. Whatever the case is, the main point of having a magnetometer would be to cancel out gyroscope drift in the yaw axis (left-right). The accelerometer would handle drift for the pitch and roll axes.

 

[watershed]

Do we have evidence of drifting from the gamepad? Takamura's Castle is my favorite Nintendoland game so far and from all the videos I've seen it looks very responsive and accurate.

 

[Anth0ny]

kinda off topic

but apparently that 56 page xbox 720 document may have some truth to it

which means we've learned more about 720 in one day than we have about wii u in the last 14 months

and it's been at two e3s

microsoft really needs to hire some ninjas

 

[Roo]

kinda off topic

but apparently that 56 page xbox 720 document may have some truth to it

which means we've learned more about 720 in one day than we have about wii u in the last 14 months

and it's been at two e3s

microsoft really needs to hire some ninjas

May?
How so? What's in it?
I don't follow microsoft threads lul

 

[Hero of Legend]

I compiled some info:

Scribblenauts Unlimited 	1080p	   60 fps	FSAA
New Super Mario Bros. U		 720p 	   60 fps	AA
Nintendo Land			 720p	   60 fps
Ninja Gaiden 3 			 720p 	   60 fps 		v-sync
Batman 				 720p 	   30 fps 		v-sync
Project P-100			 720p	   60 fps	
Rayman Legends			 720p	   60 fps
Mass Effect 3			 720p	   60 fps
Pikmin 3 			 720p 	   30 fps
Zombi U 			 720p 	   30 fps
Lego City: Undercover		 720p	   
Trine 2: Director's Cut 	 720p			FXAA

IdeaMan noted that most games will have AA at launch.
And Pikmin 3 is going to have 60 fps at launch (don't know the source).

It was Wii U Daily who asked a rep and he confirmed 60fps for Pikmin (I even made the thread). So why does the box there say 30fps?

What's the difference between AA, FSAA, and FXAA?

And v-sync is to prevent screen-tearing right? Hear that TT Games/TT Fusion?

 

[Anth0ny]

May?
How so? What's in it?
I don't follow microsoft threads lul

It seemed like a really shitty fake, but people who "know things" are coming out and claiming there's truth to it. Now this company who has worked with Microsoft in the past is demanding the powerpoint presentation be taken down on certain websites.

 

[Mpl90]

It seemed like a really shitty fake, but people who "know things" are coming out and claiming there's truth to it. Now this company who has worked with Microsoft in the past is demanding the powerpoint presentation be taken down on certain websites.

Summing up: MS leaving Europe, besides Japan, to Nintendo XD

 

[disap.ed]

But that link talks about the U gamepad, not the PRO controller.

I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that the PRO Controller won't have neither Rumble nor analog triggers, which honestly plain sucks.

Wait, what? Not again! :-/

 

[schuelma]

It seemed like a really shitty fake, but people who "know things" are coming out and claiming there's truth to it. Now this company who has worked with Microsoft in the past is demanding the powerpoint presentation be taken down on certain websites.

Can someone give me the cliff notes?

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Sorry to bring this up again, but have the shoulder and trigger buttons been confirmed to be analog or digital?

Nintendo.com lists them simply as "L/R buttons, ZL/ZR buttons" which make me think the OP is correct in calling them digital.

I just did a Google search and some sites list them as digital while others list them as analog. A few days ago I thought I read a thread on the gaming forum on NeoGAF that said they would be analog, but I can't find the thread now.

Has anything official been said either way?

There was a site calling them analog, treated as news in a thread here, then the site retracted and said they weren't sure. They've (EDIT: Nintendo) not officially said "They're not analog" to my knowledge, but on every occasion the shoulder buttons have been mentioned they've not differentiated between L/R and ZL/ZR in functionality.

 

[lednerg]

It seemed like a really shitty fake, but people who "know things" are coming out and claiming there's truth to it. Now this company who has worked with Microsoft in the past is demanding the powerpoint presentation be taken down on certain websites.

I think most people paying attention could put together a big list of specs/descriptions and get at least some of it right. $299 is fricken crazy talk, though, and I doubt even Microsoft themselves know what the final price range will be this far from launch.

 

[BlackJace]

But that link talks about the U gamepad, not the PRO controller.

I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that the PRO Controller won't have neither Rumble nor analog triggers, which honestly plain sucks.

Wait woah, woah, woah. No rumble on the PRO CONTROLLER? That's too jacked up to believe.

 

[Captain Smoker]

It was Wii U Daily who asked a rep and he confirmed 60fps for Pikmin (I even made the thread). So why does the box there say 30fps?

Because I thought it's going to have 60fps at launch and had no source.

But it looks like all Nintendo-games are locked at 60 fps, I see no reason why Pikmin 3 shouldn't be and a lot of sources said it's 60 fps.

I updated the box.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that the PRO Controller won't have neither Rumble nor analog triggers, which honestly plain sucks.

.....no

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Wait woah, woah, woah. No rumble on the PRO CONTROLLER? That's too jacked up to believe.

Oh really? Wow.


Guess who'll be jacking the Umote whenever friends are over! \o/

 

[Hero of Legend]

Because I thought it's going to have 60fps at launch and had no source.

But it looks like all Nintendo-games are locked at 60 fps, I see no reason why Pikmin 3 shouldn't be and a lot of sources said it's 60 fps.

I updated the box.

it's also a tad necessary since it's clear it's a (well) beefed up Wii game, yes clearly there are feects that the Wii would've chocked on.

So 60fps would round it out as a nicely pushed Wii U game. Hope it's indeed true. I could tell if I was there, I have an eye for framerates, not perfect, but I can distinguish 60 from 30.

 

[EatChildren]

It was Wii U Daily who asked a rep and he confirmed 60fps for Pikmin (I even made the thread). So why does the box there say 30fps?

What's the difference between AA, FSAA, and FXAA?

And v-sync is to prevent screen-tearing right? Hear that TT Games/TT Fusion?

V-sync does prevent tearing, yes. It ensures the entire scene is rendered before displaying. Downside is it can lower framerates and introduce input lag.

There are lots of types of anti-aliasing with varying degrees if image quality and performance hit. From off the top of my head, FSAA should be supersampling if the term is being used correctly, which means the game is being rendered at a higher than native resolution and downsampled to clean up jaggies.

FXAA is a post processing anti-aliasing solution. It has a very small performance hit and does an okay job of cleaning up the image, but usually comes at the cost of slight blurring and a loss of clarity. I fucking hate FXAA.

 

[BlackJace]

Disorientator can I have a source to that statement if you have one? I can't fucking believe it...

Analog is one thing, but NO RUMBLE?

 

[Hero of Legend]

V-sync does prevent tearing, yes. It ensures the entire scene is rendered before displaying. Downside is it can lower framerates and introduce input lag.

There are lots of types of anti-aliasing with varying degrees if image quality and performance hit. From off the top of my head, FSAA should be supersampling if the term is being used correctly, which means the game is being rendered at a higher than native resolution and downsampled to clean up jaggies.

FXAA is a post processing anti-aliasing solution. It has a very small performance hit and does an okay job of cleaning up the image, but usually comes at the cost of slight blurring and a loss of clarity. I fucking hate FXAA.

And regular AA?

And someone above said 720p should give you free FSAA I think?

 

[lednerg]

As far as analog triggers are concerned, while I wouldn't hold my breath, I wouldn't completely rule them out, either. Getting analog sticks in place of the circle pads was evidently due to feedback from 3rd parties - so if they speak up loudly enough in favor of analog triggers, then we could end up getting them.

 

[EatChildren]

And regular AA?

And someone above said 720p should give you free FSAA I think?

There's no 'regular' AA, just different types. MSAA is the most common these days I guess. Kinda expensive though, depending on how high you want to go.

Anti-aliasing is hugely dependant on the hardware and how the engine is optimised to use said AA. FSAA is traditionally 'full screen anti-aliasing', which should imply super sampling. There is no way the GPU is giving free super sampling. So FSAA tends to be used for other kinds of anti-aliasing depending on how it's been programmed.

I'm wary of anybody saying Wii U games give free AA until we get concrete details of the hardware.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Hm, would've been nice to have a first party game in 1080p for launch window. Oh well.

The good news is there's plenty of development time left in these games (at least 2 months depending on release date) so they could all end up at 1080p.

 

[lednerg]

There's no 'regular' AA, just different types. MSAA is the most common these days I guess. Kinda expensive though, depending on how high you want to go.

Anti-aliasing is hugely dependant on the hardware and how the engine is optimised to use said AA. FSAA is traditionally 'full screen anti-aliasing', which should imply super sampling. There is no way the GPU is giving free super sampling. So FSAA tends to be used for other kinds of anti-aliasing depending on how it's been programmed.

I'm wary of anybody saying Wii U games give free AA until we get concrete details of the hardware.

There was that line in the leaked target list from over a year ago that read:

"32MB high-bandwidth eDRAM, supports 720p 4x MSAA or 1080p rendering in a single pass."

That's probably where people are getting that from. I wouldn't read 'supports' to mean 'for free'. It's just saying it's got the memory and bandwidth to handle that, as far as I can tell.

 

[Luigison]

As far as analog triggers are concerned, while I wouldn't hold my breath, I wouldn't completely rule them out, either. Getting analog sticks in place of the circle pads was evidently due to feedback from 3rd parties - so if they speak up loudly enough in favor of analog triggers, then we could end up getting them.

I agree. Certain 3rd party racing games use analog triggers to accelerate and/or drift. The GCN had analog triggers so they would be needed on Wii U if we get GCN VC games or ports.

 

[japtor]

Well yeah, I guess technically you'd have to recalibrate if you use the controller from a different position. It could be implemented really simply at least: press the home button, tap the immediately accessible recalibration icon, hold the controller up toward the TV, it counts down from 3 and sets it (very nintendo-y), then press home to return to your game. When you first turn the system on it would ask you to do this right off the bat to get you used to it, and then make the icon flash and be like "THIS IS WHERE THE ICON IS DURRR". You'd only have to do this once from your current position. If you play from the same seat every time, you wouldn't ever have to recalibrate at all. Positions only slightly off wouldn't really need recalibration either unless you're super OCD (like me, lulz).

It doesn't seem like it's doing its job though. Watching the reticule gradually drift while people were flinging shuriken in Takamaru's Ninja Castle was really irritating (and depressing). Maybe Nintendo just hasn't taken advantage of it yet, but I dunno...

I've actually been pretty optimistic about Wii U, but this one little thing is really bugging me for some reason.

That's a lot more complex and time consuming vs Skyward Sword's process (in game, just hold a button), and I'm guessing Takamaru's was doing something similar. I haven't seen too many videos of it, but it didn't seem like it was drifting as much as just needing to be recentered cause the controller was going around a bunch. Like a demo person was showing how to play then handing it to a player, that change in positioning would likely be enough to throw it off, compass calibration or not.

It sold 92k last month (essentially one week) in the US. The game had a pretty big development team and they expected 1.5 million sales, though they also dreamed of much higher ones.

It's possible they had great plants with the series, especially due to the huge investment, but after those sales I don't see them do anything with it anytime soon. Then again they are even trying to keep Lost Planet alive, so who knows ?

I could see it happening if Nintendo gets involved, like pushing it in the US or something.

And speaking of Lost Planet, what are the odds of the weird 3DS/PS3 spinoff showing up?

The good news is there's plenty of development time left in these games (at least 2 months depending on release date) so they could all end up at 1080p.

Only if the hardware can actually handle drawing all the extra pixels, it's not a small bump going from 720 to 1080.

I agree. Certain 3rd party racing games use analog triggers to accelerate and/or drift. The GCN had analog triggers so they would be needed on Wii U if we get GCN VC games or ports.

I pestered them about it on their contact page...they actually have humans replying to messages there! There's no form for Wii U yet so I kind of tacked it onto something else. I figure just bug them through whatever avenues about it like Twitter and Facebook and hope they realize it's important if they haven't already.

 

[blu]

V-sync does prevent tearing, yes. It ensures the entire scene is rendered before displaying. Downside is it can lower framerates and introduce input lag.

There are lots of types of anti-aliasing with varying degrees if image quality and performance hit. From off the top of my head, FSAA should be supersampling if the term is being used correctly, which means the game is being rendered at a higher than native resolution and downsampled to clean up jaggies.

FXAA is a post processing anti-aliasing solution. It has a very small performance hit and does an okay job of cleaning up the image, but usually comes at the cost of slight blurring and a loss of clarity. I fucking hate FXAA.

FSAA stands for 'full-screen/full-scene AA', and does not carry information whether it's super-sampling or otherwise. In case somebody is wondering - yes, back in the day there were solutions where AA was applied per-primitive (i.e. Voodoo SST series).

 

[Vargas]

I want some Wii U infos now. Anyone know if Lego City Undercover is day one or not? If that Pikmin and Mario are launch titles I will be picking the system up at launch, as long as it is 299 or less.

 

[Plinko]

I want some Wii U infos now. Anyone know if Lego City Undercover is day one or not? If that Pikmin and Mario are launch titles I will be picking the system up at launch, as long as it is 299 or less.

If they can fix the atrocious screen-tearing that was in the E3 video, I hope it's day one.

 

[Rösti]

We haven't reached the 28th of June yet (or that Wii U Experience in New York starting on the 26th of June), so I've been thinking about what can be done else than just waiting. I'm frequently checking the SEC for new filings, I search financial reports etc. and I send inquiries to Nintendo's business partners (AMD and IBM mainly) from time to time. Not much new information has been revealed since E3, and what we have got has more or less just continued the confusion and delay.

So for that, I thought it could perhaps be quite interesting to contact Nintendo's Software Development Support Group's (http://www.warioworld.com) webmaster Rob Bakie (robeba07@noa.nintendo.com) with some basic questions about Wii U. I doubt we'll get any spec sheet or similar, but maybe he can share some personal opinions on Wii U. Undoubtedly he should know a bunch of stuff about the console, unless Reggie blindfolds him and tells him under explicit phone commands by Nintendo HQ what documents to upload etc.

Therefore, feel free to write down some basic/easy questions that he should be able to answer without breaking any NDA, and I shall compile them into a list and send it sometime next week. It's better than doing nothing anyway.

 

[Captain Smoker]

Is there any specific hardware-component for the lighting in the Wii U?

Above all things this seems to be one of it's main strenghts, if we look at these pictures (bad video compression).

I think this isn't often considered in the GFlop/TFlop-raw-power-discussions.

*click to enlarge

 

[blu]

Is there any specific hardware-component for the lighting in the Wii U?

Above all things this seems to be one of it's main strenghts, if we look at these pictures (bad video compression).

I think this isn't often considered in the GFlop/TFlop-raw-power-discussions.

*click to enlarge

That's normal-looking stuff for a contemporary GPU.

Now, that is something to look forward to.

 

[Hobbestetrician]

I want some Wii U infos now. Anyone know if Lego City Undercover is day one or not? If that Pikmin and Mario are launch titles I will be picking the system up at launch, as long as it is 299 or less.

On that release list it showed both Mario and Lego City as 'Holiday' titles and since Mario has been confirmed for launch then I am going to assume it means launch for Lego City as well. I know I am looking forward to it. Pikmin 3 was listed as 'Launch Window' so I don't think that will be there Day 1 but shortly after (like Pikmin 1).

 

[Fourth Storm]

On that release list it showed both Mario and Lego City as 'Holiday' titles and since Mario has been confirmed for launch then I am going to assume it means launch for Lego City as well. I know I am looking forward to it. Pikmin 3 was listed as 'Launch Window' so I don't think that will be there Day 1 but shortly after (like Pikmin 1).

I agree. Or maybe a week or two later in December. The number of titles Nintendo itself has to publish in order to fill out its lineup concerns me a bit, btw.

But Pikmin 3 will be held off until Q1 as will Wii Fit U (gotta shed those holiday lbs). Nintendo aren't looking to have a complete blowout on launch day, but have specifically said they are adjusting their schedule to avoid any long gaps in software releases. Sounds good to me.

 

[Redford]

Nintendoland lighting looks amazing. Unfortunate that it clashes with shit textures, but in any case WiiU will be worth it for the (pseudo?) GI alone.

 

[Terrell]

So I was listening to 8-4 Play just now, and it got me thinking....

Where is Fumito Ueda gonna be after The Last Guardian gets released/cancelled? For those who aren't aware, Ueda LEFT SONY mid-way through development and is a free agent once Last Guardian is finished (he's still contractually obligated to fulfill his role as director for this last game). He's been VERY quiet since announcing that he's leaving Team ICO back in 2011.

I think you guys know what I'm speculating here.

 

[shnord]

Did other games have drift in them? This is the first I'm hearing about it at all. If there is drift, then the game software itself is not using the magnetometer. This could be because they hadn't programmed for one (yet?), or because this early version of the gamepad doesn't have one. We do know that what they showed at E3 wasn't the final retail version of the gamepad, since Reggie said in an interview that the AC adapter port would be moved to the bottom. Whatever the case is, the main point of having a magnetometer would be to cancel out gyroscope drift in the yaw axis (left-right). The accelerometer would handle drift for the pitch and roll axes.

Do we have evidence of drifting from the gamepad? Takamura's Castle is my favorite Nintendoland game so far and from all the videos I've seen it looks very responsive and accurate.

That's a lot more complex and time consuming vs Skyward Sword's process (in game, just hold a button), and I'm guessing Takamaru's was doing something similar. I haven't seen too many videos of it, but it didn't seem like it was drifting as much as just needing to be recentered cause the controller was going around a bunch. Like a demo person was showing how to play then handing it to a player, that change in positioning would likely be enough to throw it off, compass calibration or not.

Stephen Totilo points it out. (starts taking about it around 1:50)

He does mention Nintendo reps have said they're still working on it, but that could just mean they're doing something on the software side to try to combat it better but it won't actually solve the issue outright.

Okay, so my system-wide calibration idea is kind of unnecessary if the games themselves prompt you to calibrate when you start playing anyway (although it would still be a nice option for advanced users who'd like to get rid of the prompts completely). Still, needing to press a button to recenter is an added hassle ON TOP of that. It got pretty annoying in Skyward Sword.

Playstation Move has a magnetometer and it still suffers from drift as well. Maybe they just chose faulty chips? I don't know.

It just seems like the magnetometer doesn't guarantee that it will give the device a totally reliable point of reference, which is confusing to me because you'd think "NORTH IS THAT WAY" should always be constant.

Anyway, I really hope the core issue can be fixed. Pressing a button to manually recenter needs to go away. You should only need to tell the system once where the TV is relative to where you're sitting and then forget about it.

It would be cool if they went a step further and when you first turned on the system it asked you to hold the controller right up against your TV screen to calibrate. From then on, the system would always know where the TV was in physical space relative to the controller. Even if the controller was facing away from the TV it would know where the TV was -- something the regular sensor bar can't provide. You'd only ever have to recalibrate if you moved the TV, repositioned the console or sensor bar 2.0 (whichever is transmitting signals to be used for positional data), or hooked the system up to a different TV.

Can't see that happening though!

 

[Exterminieren]

So I was listening to 8-4 Play just now, and it got me thinking....

Where is Fumito Ueda gonna be after The Last Guardian gets released/cancelled? For those who aren't aware, Ueda LEFT SONY mid-way through development and is a free agent once Last Guardian is finished (he's still contractually obligated to fulfill his role as director for this last game). He's been VERY quiet since announcing that he's leaving Team ICO back in 2011.

I think you guys know what I'm speculating here.

No way. With the Last Guardian shenanigans, Ueda's career is toxic.

I'll be vaguely surprised if we ever see a game from him again, and I'll be astounded and baffled if Nintendo has anything to do with it.

 

[Aostia]

I've lost the community thread after the shitty conference
Here I am back, guys! AHAH
unfortunatley, my pre-e3 nightmares about no NDA'a hiding unannounced third party titles was right, and the parallelism between Vita and Wii U are becoming seriously true (Wiita incoming!)
I'm really disappointed by the actual landscape of wii u software lineup...
are you guys still hyped for the launch?

 

[Terrell]

No way. With the Last Guardian shenanigans, Ueda's career is toxic.

I'll be vaguely surprised if we ever see a game from him again, and I'll be astounded and baffled if Nintendo has anything to do with it.

Perhaps you know more about this situation than I do, but what do you mean "toxic"?

 

[Nibel]

Fucking beautiful. Just wow!

 

[AzaK]

That's normal-looking stuff for a contemporary GPU.

Now, that is something to look forward to.

Isn't 5 ray bounces an insane amount? And can we expect this on any next generation console?

 

[EVIL]

Is there any specific hardware-component for the lighting in the Wii U?

Above all things this seems to be one of it's main strenghts, if we look at these pictures (bad video compression).

I think this isn't often considered in the GFlop/TFlop-raw-power-discussions.

*click to enlarge

those zombi-u screens look very frostbyte 2 ish.

Isn't 5 ray bounces an insane amount? And can we expect this on any next generation console?

maybe the one after that. The next generation is still to slow to calculate entire scenes this way.

 

[Mpl90]

I've lost the community thread after the shitty conference
Here I am back, guys! AHAH
unfortunatley, my pre-e3 nightmares about no NDA'a hiding unannounced third party titles was right, and the parallelism between Vita and Wii U are becoming seriously true (Wiita incoming!)
I'm really disappointed by the actual landscape of wii u software lineup...
are you guys still hyped for the launch?

Nuas, it's just the first months. And they look pretty good for being the first months of a brand new console, with also other announcements we know / have seen hints still not done ( yeah, still talking about launch window ), you haven't to be pessimistic while in your heart you're the most optimistic fan out there just to bring luck to Wii U.

P.S. If you think about it, the launch lineup is even better than Wii one, especially on the third party front.

 

[Exterminieren]

Perhaps you know more about this situation than I do, but what do you mean "toxic"?

No one will be willing to invest in an Ueda game in the foreseeable future. The Last Guardian is such an incredible money sink, and is not going to be even close to profitable. There are zero compelling reasons to invest in this guy's ideas, when the project he's been most involved with is such an embarrassment.

 

[Thraktor]

That's normal-looking stuff for a contemporary GPU.

Now, that is something to look forward to.

I'm enjoying that far too much for a tech demo, thanks.

Isn't 5 ray bounces an insane amount? And can we expect this on any next generation console?

Five bounces would be an insane amount in an actual game environment, but there are very few primitives in this scene (10 by default), so the traces are pretty cheap.

Edit: And I wouldn't expect any fully ray-traced games on next get consoles. If we're lucky we'll get a fairly basic proof-of-concept game running at a low resolution, but hopefully the generation after that will see a shift to ray-tracing as standard (and a big shift in GPU architectures to go with it).

 

[Aguila]

Why is Nintendo's main site not working? I want to enter some Club Nintendo codes.

 

[AzaK]

Why is Nintendo's main site not working? I want to enter some Club Nintendo codes.

They're refreshing it with the info for Tomb Raider and BioShock.

 

[Terrell]

No one will be willing to invest in an Ueda game in the foreseeable future. The Last Guardian is such an incredible money sink, and is not going to be even close to profitable. There are zero compelling reasons to invest in this guy's ideas, when the project he's been most involved with is such an embarrassment.

Do we know that he's responsible for it being an "embarrassment" though? I was hoping that you had some sort of insight into the development that you could share that would back this "toxic" standpoint. Cuz when a developer walks away from a company who's willing to throw money at them, there's usually a reason for it that isn't reflective upon the person themselves. Mikami and the Clover Studio/Platinum crew come to mind.

So tell me where this sentiment of having Ueda become a "toxic" developer actually stems from, because there's a lot of conjecture in your statement without even an explanation of where it comes from. I mean, for all we know, Sony was throwing money at him demanding another Ico or SotC and that's not what he really wanted to make. Give me some indication that what you're saying has something to it.