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[Sadist]

Could somebody explain what "performance orphan" means exactly? An orphan has no parents. So a performance orphan has no… performance parents?

Same here

What does it even mean?

 

[EatChildren]

Same here

What does it even mean?

It's a stupid phrase, but they probably mean to say it is 'unrelated' in performance to the next Microsoft and Sony systems, as the gap will be distant enough for the Wii U to be separated.

 

[Gahiggidy]

Like I've been saying all along, Wii U is a marginally more powerful 360, which is ok for Nintendo games, but some people here were really believing it would be a much bigger leap over current gen.

Pretty good article by Totillo.

Well to be fair their have been posters here pushing the wuu would be PS2, Xbox(ps4), and gamecube (x720). When comparing the power of next Gen.

I have always thought it was x360 plus.

Really I think it will be wii 2.0. Which is fine with me. Wii was the best selling console last Gen. Plus I don't think it would be smart to go against ms/Sony on the tech level.

Wii U's tech is still very much unconfirmed. Even Totillo is unsure as to how the machine will compare to the competition.

 

[USC-fan]

Wii U's tech is still very much unconfirmed. Even Totillo is unsure as to how the machine will compare to the competition.

Well I would rather be pleasantly surprised and happy then being disappointed.

 

[donny2112]

Like I've been saying all along, Wii U is a marginally more powerful 360,

So you didn't read the article. Got it.

 

[Nibel]

ClovingWestbrook should have made that thread

 

[gamergirly]

It's a stupid phrase, but they probably mean to say it is 'unrelated' in performance to the next Microsoft and Sony systems, as the gap will be distant enough for the Wii U to be separated.

The question is separated enough to make a difference? I think most of us Nintendo fans are just happy to be getting a powerful HD system at this point. There won't be a huge deal on our end versus the other side if Sony/MS don't deliver

 

[donny2112]

ClovingWestbrook should have made that thread

Very thankful someone more interested in legitimate discussion made it.

 

[Van Owen]

So you didn't read the article. Got it.

Wrong.

I would dispute the part in the article about AC3 though, since it was running sub 30fps at e3. I'm sure that will mostly be worked out by the time it releases though.

 

[EatChildren]

The question is separated enough to make a difference? I think most of us Nintendo fans are just happy to be getting a powerful HD system at this point. There won't be a huge deal on our end versus the other side if Sony/MS don't deliver

Difference in what way?

Visually, yes.
Difficulty of ports, yes.
Optimisation and coding of engines, yes.

Sales, maybe, for better or worse.

 

[snowdog1971]

I have a feeling Capcom and SE specifically will be heavily on board, both with western and eastern developed titles. SE already was allowed to break Wii U's year long radio silence with DQX and Capcom's Dave Reeves gave away that they were originally planning to reveal their early Wii U games at last year's TGS (before Nintendo changed the rollout strategy). Ports of stuff like RE6, Dragon's Dogma or FFXIV seem like obvious picks, both to ride the launch window rush and build an early base on the system. I'd like to think both companies understand the opportunity they squandered on Wii by not following up DQ Swords or RE4 Wii properly.

As for the rest of the major JP pubs, Namco Bandai and Tecmo Koei are already backing Wii U and we'll probably see a lot more stuff confirmed from each as the year goes on (Samuari Warriors, DOA, One Piece, Taiko, Tales, etc). I expect Level-5 will push hard early on the system after missing the boat with Wii and totally misfiring on PS3, Ghoul Watch seems like an obvious Wii U project with it's HD assets and overlay screen interface. Sega's already there with western stuff, and I see the Japanese side heavily betting on Wii U (especially Sonic Team). I think the only major holdout is Konami really, and even worst case scenario then stuff like PES or DDR is going to be coming. With Konami everything will be solved if Nintendo can get Kojima on board, which they should strive for. Revengeance on Wii U would send a good message.

This ^^

Sounds about right to me.

I'm quite surprised by EA's decision with Dead Space 3 because the touchscreen on the GamePad will be great for inventory handling and it's due to be released early next year. Publishing a launch or launch window title isn't much of a gamble, a publisher is pretty much guaranteed sales over 1m if they decide to market the game at all.

One thing that I think may have soured the relationship between EA and Nintendo could be Nintendo having a patent on using the remote and GamePad together to play a golf game. Would have put a huge spanner in the works for Tiger Woods.

As for Dead Space 3 I'm not going to be buying it after they've shoehorned co-op play into the game. It's supposed to be a tense survival horror game for gawd's sake. EA have decided to do exactly what Capcom have done to the Resident Evil franchise from Resident Evil 4 onwards - turn it into an action game. Ridiculous decision. Co-op play DOES NOT belong in a survival horror game. The first two games had a nice spooky atmosphere, had you being a solitary protagonist against seemingly insurmountable odds worrying if you were going to make it. You're not going to have anywhere near the same atmosphere with co-op bollocks going on.

You may have guessed I'm more than a little peeved by what we saw at E3 of the game lol.

 

[Penguin]

ClovingWestbrook should have made that thread

He is currently banned, no?

 

[EatChildren]

Co-op play DOES NOT belong in a survival horror game.

I don't disagree about Dead Space 3, but DayZ refutes this line of thinking.

 

[GameplayWhore]

Co-op play DOES NOT belong in a survival horror game. The first two games had a nice spooky atmosphere, had you being a solitary protagonist against seemingly insurmountable odds worrying if you were going to make it. You're not going to have anywhere near the same atmosphere with co-op bollocks going on.

I disagree with this. Co-op play can work very well in survival horror. I think the trick might be to make sure that the players are separated most of the time.

Also, if it's online, don't allow chatting. Instead only allow them to communicate indirectly. Like by scrawling messages on the walls in blood and hoping that the other person comes by to read them.

(I know chatting can be done by other means, but I think players genuinely interested in survival horror would follow the rules, as it makes the game more effectively unsettling)

 

[USC-fan]

I don't disagree about Dead Space 3, but DayZ refutes this line of thinking.

Then you add left for dead.

 

[Hakai]

And here we go again with the power discussion, well i'm very curious to see how this will turn out, but I'm not creating expectations towards power! It's not the selling point for the Wii U imo.

Sure the third party support will not appear as we want(though I think Wii U might be able to run the next gen twins games, but a lower version, as speculated before), so we should go buzz in those publisher ears saying "hey you got a market here, port your game to this machine" instead of just blaming Nintendo, or saying that no one buy third party games in a Nintendo console.

 

[Penguin]

I would argue co-op can make survival horror more interesting since you have to depend on another person if done right.

Sharing resources, deciding when its best to split up and best to stick together. Do you run ahead or always cover for your team

 

[nordique]

What surprised me was that in the article, the sources called the GPU "impressive", but the CPU the complete opposite. This perfectly coincides with what we've been speculating on this forum, but they made no mention of GPGPU, though. Also, hooray for 2GB RAM?

The "sources" also didn't mention that The Wii U has modern shader capabilities and functions which literally prevent it from being in a Wii situation. Rather than work on a different version of the game, a-la Wii, devs would need to make downscaled versions of already-finished games, which with today's engines, is almost effortless. This leads me to question the credibility of these so-called sources.

He either probably doesn't even know what a GPGPU is, or wasn't told outright by his sources.

I mean, he is using DirectX comparisons (perhaps for accuracy on what his readers will most likely understand), which is not what the Wii U will even be using.

 

[cyberheater]

So if the article (Totilo) is correct. I can see some corner case where it won't be possible for WiiU to match some games on PS3. Games that heavily use SPU's for physics would be a tall task for the WiiU CPU.

The article also seems a bit vague on the memory, "with as much as 2Gb".... So how much is there? It's seems it's going to be well over 1Gb which is a good thing as least.

 

[disap.ed]

Could somebody explain what "performance orphan" means exactly? An orphan has no parents. So a performance orphan has no… performance parents?

WiiU to be made by the holy ghost and virgin Mary confirmed.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Here is my silver lining scenario: Wii U does fine, establishes a very healthy install base and Nintendo continues its transformation from Tyrant partner to a welcoming platform holder. Meanwhile, Microsoft and Sony launch their new consoles, and skyrocketing costs and a miscalculated AAA-F2P model causes huge losses and studio closures. EA, Activision, Rockstar and the other mega publishers with enough cash to stay a float keep hitting the Giant, Red Buttons of the Next Gen arms race.

Out of the ashes, smaller, independent and creative developers find refuge on Wii U. With development costs much lower, a system still capable of HD games and a beautiful digital distribution network, these developers flourish. Nintendo becomes the nurturing force behind a creative renaissance. Wii U is social, fun and gamers love it.

Wii U

Spoiler

topia

Exactly what I'm thinking. WiiU hits 6 million by March 2013, 10 million by summer and possibly more by launch of the big boys. If anything, we can test the publishers now. Will they really ignore a 10-15 million install base when Sony and MS are starting from scratch? Will they really not port to WiiU when the majority of sales will be coming from 360/PS3/WiiU way into mid-late 2014? Will they push a ton of tech and risk the slow uptake of the 360?

 

[HylianTom]

Exactly what I'm thinking. WiiU hits 6 million by March 2013, 10 million by summer and possibly more by launch of the big boys. If anything, we can test the publishers now. Will they really ignore a 10-15 million install base when Sony and MS are starting from scratch? Will they really not port to WiiU when the majority of sales will be coming from 360/PS3/WiiU way into mid-late 2014? Will they push a ton of tech and risk the slow uptake of the 360?

My prediction? By and large, they'll ignore such a base - even when multiple "core" launch games sell well - and they'll use the install bases of PS360 as their official excuse.

Spoiler

Then, when the PS720 arrive, they'll turn around and pump-out the titles for their tiny userbases..

 

[MDX]

So the article says that Nintendo is worried about the heat of the CPU and for that reason
has clocked it down? We know they like to make solid consoles and seems to be an important factor in making the console. Which I am glad about.

But for some reason, even after the ihnfamous RROD, people expect for MS and Sony to make leagues better performing consoles, under $400, and have the first launches next year? What am I missing here? What type of cooling technology does MS and Sony have that Nintendo cant seem to get their hands on?

 

[StevieP]

Exactly what I'm thinking. WiiU hits 6 million by March 2013, 10 million by summer and possibly more by launch of the big boys. If anything, we can test the publishers now. Will they really ignore a 10-15 million install base when Sony and MS are starting from scratch?

Yes.

So if the article (Totilo) is correct. I can see some corner case where it won't be possible for WiiU to match some games on PS3. Games that heavily use SPU's for physics would be a tall task for the WiiU CPU.

How about the GPU?

 

[tkscz]

So the article says that Nintendo is worried about the heat of the CPU and for that reason
has clocked it down? We know they like to make solid consoles and seems to be an important factor in making the console. Which I am glad about.

But for some reason, even after the ihnfamous RROD, people expect for MS and Sony to make leagues better performing consoles, under $400, and have the first launches next year? What am I missing here? What type of cooling technology does MS and Sony have that Nintendo cant seem to get their hands on?

Giant-ass boxes that can hold big-ass loud fans.

 

[cyberheater]

How about the GPU?

What about it?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Nintendo has gone through some effort to offset the load on the CPU. Many of those efforts won't be evident in the first or second generation titles.

 

[Fourth Storm]

So if the article (Totilo) is correct. I can see some corner case where it won't be possible for WiiU to match some games on PS3. Games that heavily use SPU's for physics would be a tall task for the WiiU CPU.

The article also seems a bit vague on the memory, "with as much as 2Gb".... So how much is there? It's seems it's going to be well over 1Gb which is a good thing as least.

I'm confident that in the right hands, WiiU should be able to trounce the PS3. Totilo did say that, overall, the system was superior to current generation and that the GPU was impressive. 800 GFLOPS impressive? We shall see. But as far as physics go, from what I've read, a mid-tier modern GPU should be more than up to the task at handling what we've seen on the PS3. Of course, that's all if the devs put in the time to get the physics engine running on the GPU. WiiU does come w/ free Havok tools, so Nintendo obviously have this issue in mind.

The question of the hour: how slow can the CPU go? I still agree with wsippel's assessment that a modified PPC 470 series core will be employed. My best guess at trying to fit the pieces together is a 2.0 Ghz clockspeed (that's the absolute highest those cores run) w/ the master core including 2-way SMT (er CMT per wsippel, once again) and the 2 slave cores staying single-threaded. Maybe a modified VSX on the master core at least, since the specific complaints only mention a)slow clock speed and b)less threads than the 360.
Hey Ideaman, did you hear any actual rumors on VSX being included or was that just speculation? I remember you did bring it up at one point.

 

[cyberheater]

I'm confident that in the right hands, WiiU should be able to trounce the PS3. Totilo did say that, overall, the system was superior to current generation and that the GPU was impressive. 800 GFLOPS impressive? We shall see. But as far as physics go, from what I've read, a mid-tier modern GPU should be more than up to the task at handling what we've seen on the PS3

You're confidence is misplaced. It's not exactly a mid tier modern CPU.

The WiiU processor is basically an upscaled Wii processor.

It isn't power7. it isn't SPU or cell. it isn't a 4xx. It is the same core as Wii, with 3 of them and larger L2's, clocked a little bit faster.

"Write gatherer per core. Locked (L1d) cache DMA per core." are features straight from the Wii and GC PPC.

3MB of edram on the CPU for the 512/512/2048 L2 caches

And single threaded.

Originally Posted by bgassassin
Others have said those cores have "2 threads per core". Are you able to confirm that?

False.

 

[Gahiggidy]

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<------- Updating avatar in response to Totilo's "Wii U&#8217;s Power Problem" article.

 

[cyberheater]

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<------- Updating avatar in response to Totilo's "Wii U’s Power Problem" article.

Seriously. What were you expecting performance wise from WiiU?

 

[Gahiggidy]

Seriously. What were you expecting performance wise from WiiU?

.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

My prediction? By and large, they'll ignore such a base - even when multiple "core" launch games sell well - and they'll use the install bases of PS360 as their official excuse.

Spoiler

Then, when the PS720 arrive, they'll turn around and pump-out the titles for their tiny userbases..

Yes.

Such downers. I'm hopeful they cannot reasonably ignore the U. Especially with EA, Activision on board. Before, everyone was being dragged onto the Wii. Now, some guys are jumping on board w/o hesitation. It may not have all 3rd party games on board in the beginning but I'm betting on them downporting, just because Ninty will be the first to 10, 25 million and the leader of this generation because of the year headstart, better economic plan.

Many forget how slowly MS took to get to 10 million WW. W/O Japan selling well, they were limping to 10 million. The argument shifted away from overall leader to HD twins are leading and Wii really doesn't have modern architecture to make it worth porting to. Just like this gen, Wii U will eliminate the sales argument on NSMB alone and the year head start and have a decent architecture to fight off the Super HD twins off again. And, Sony and MS are boxed in. If they keep prices down, they stay close to Ninty. If they go for 10x the previous generation, they will get close to $400 and prevent great sales from happening in the 1st year. They'll struggle to get to 5 million by March 2014 whereas Ninty will be closing in on 20 million in sales. If the Super HD twins struggle to clear 8 million combined, how can anybody ignore the new triumvirate, PS360U?

That's based on a lot of assumptions but using the past sales of the 360 launch and year after launch, it's not hard to make those assumptions. Unless we want to say that MS and Sony would have a game that will drive sales far above what they have recently done. In this economy. With those types of games.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

The WiiU processor is basically an upscaled Wii processor.

Sorry, wasn't the "Wii U CPU = 3 overclocked Broadways" not debunked?

 

[donny2112]

The WiiU processor is basically an upscaled Wii processor.

Pretty sure that was called out as plain false.

 

[daakusedo]

I'm not interest in making predictions because most logical things seems to not work in this industry but I think given how it produce pretty uniform products , games that are made to sell will sell no matter the platform and I think given the score of cod games on wii while being what they are is a clear point and that's why it's not far fetched to see assasins creed 3 doing good sales on wiiu. But if I follow some arguments here, it's like third parties are more concerned by some balance between the consoles. A nintendo console with all the games would be a bad thing. That's what I understand if I try to see what is behind the reasoning of sarcastic or baffled comments about them ignoring again wiiu no matter how it will sell until the next consoles are out. Is that something that people think here?
Because we're sure far from the days when we could read that no one will skip a third platform to release their games given developement cost.

Myself, I'll wait a bit to see what third parties are doing behind the games we know about for now. Last year I was thinking games like Metro or even darksiders going on wiiu was a hint at things being on track. So I emphasize metro cause it was a good illustration of mid budget or not so succesful gritty games that have to maximize their sales on platform where the public is really here. So I'm looking forward to see if it will release finally on wiiu or not.

 

[cyberheater]

.

What on earth gave you that idea. I can understand your disappointment though. When snippits of info started to come in 3 months ago about the power of the WiiU I could see where it was going. Hence the avatar.

Sorry, wasn't the "Wii U CPU = 3 Wii CPUs" not debunked?

If you have credible info. Please share. The impression I got was that this information was coming from a WiiU dev although he never actually said that.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

.










<------- Updating avatar in response to Totilo's "Wii U’s Power Problem" article.

Old school. JustlikeNintendoohwait...

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Myself, I'll wait a bit to see what third parties are doing behind the games we know about for now. Last year I was thinking games like Metro or even darksiders going on wiiu was a hint at things being on track. So I emphasize metro cause it was a good illustration of mid budget or not so succesful gritty games that have to maximize their sales on platform where the public is really here. So I'm looking forward to see if it will release finally on wiiu or not.

Difficulty with something like Metro is that the difficulties THQ are having may have more to do with its postponement or disappearance than the Wii U and its prospects.

That said, it's clear that Western third parties are playing it very cautious with the system, some to the point of dismissing it pre-launch.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

If you have credible info. Please share. The impression I got was that this information was coming from a WiiU dev although he never actually said that.

I just remember it coming up in one of the speculation threads and being fairly promptly shot down. I'm sure one of the regulars can point to it.

 

[cyberheater]

I just remember it coming up in one of the speculation threads and being fairly promptly shot down. I'm sure one of the regulars can point to it.

I remember that someone said it can't be right because lherre said that it would be able to run 2 threads per core.
This article seems to say different and back the other "dev".

The upgrade Wii cpu is not a bad idea. At least it guarantees 100% software compatible with Wii games.

 

[daakusedo]

That's true but what I mean is that it will be interesting to see how a game like that could sell on wiiu, so if it was cancelled no matter the reasons this would be a missed opportunity.

 

[Fourth Storm]

You're confidence is misplaced. It's not exactly a mid tier modern CPU.

GPU, my friend. And perhaps I am being a tad optimistic here, but we'll see how it turns out.

And I'll believe that it's an upclocked Broadway when I see it. All those attributes could also be said of the 476fp. lherre has proven reliable about the asymmetrical cache, and he claimed 2-way SMT. Perhaps the master core is and the other two are not and there was some confusion along the way.

 

[cyberheater]

GPU, my friend. And perhaps I am being a tad optimistic here, but we'll see how it turns out.

My bad. You're right. You said GPU.

I'm trying to ground myself in a base level here.
Even if the recent reports are true. It's still going to have some wonderful looking software for it.

 

[Gahiggidy]

What on earth gave you that idea. I can understand your disappointment though. When snippits of info started to come in 3 months ago about the power of the WiiU I could see where it was going. Hence the avatar.


...

I based that largely on the impression our WUST insiders were telling us that at worst the gap would be comparable to Splinter Cell running on Xbox vs. the PS2. That comparison chart closely resembles my impressions of the performance gaps of the ps2/gcn/xbox generation, with the start being where the N64 stood.



----


With the 1-year head start, shouldn't most mulit-platform games released across wiiu/720/ps4 be guaranteed to sell best on Wii U for most of 2014? Nintendo's machine should have somewhere around a 10 million unit advantage on the other boxes.

 

[USC-fan]

I based that largely on the impression our WUST insiders were telling us that at worst the gap would be comparable to Splinter Cell running on Xbox vs. the PS2. That comparison chart closely resembles my impressions of the performance gaps of the ps2/gcn/xbox generation, with the start being where the N64 stood.

Is he really an insider? I highly doubt it...

 

[cyberheater]

I based that largely on the impression our WUST insiders were telling us that at worst the gap would be comparable to Splinter Cell running on Xbox vs. the PS2. That comparison chart closely resembles my impressions of the performance gaps of the ps2/gcn/xbox generation, with the start being where the N64 stood.

Yeah. I noticed that a lot of them folks that fed us that rubbish are now strangely quiet.

Cheer up mate. Just imagine Mario Kart in stunning HD with beautiful high resolution textures. It's going to look lush.

 

[TunaLover]

That's it, Wii U had a good run, I'm leaving this hobbie for good.

 

[wsippel]

If you have credible info. Please share. The impression I got was that this information was coming from a WiiU dev although he never actually said that.

The roadmap for the PPC750 series ended years ago, and IBM has no plans to produce those chips at nodes below 90nm. The Wii U CPU is a 45nm part. PPC750 does not support SMP (unlike the Wii U CPU), nor does it use eDRAM (again, unlike the Wii U CPU).

The chip might be fully backwards compatible to Broadway and keep all proprietary features from Broadway and Gekko (makes sense as they're all still very relevant), but it certainly isn't a PPC750 anymore.

 

[cyberheater]

The roadmap for the PPC750 series ended years ago, and IBM has no plans to produce those chips at nodes below 90nm. The Wii U CPU is a 45nm part. PPC750 does not support SMP (unlike the Wii U CPU), nor does it use eDRAM (again, unlike the Wii U CPU).

The chip might be fully backwards compatible to Broadway and keep all proprietary features from Broadway and Gekko (makes sense as they're all still very relevant), but it certainly isn't a PPC750 anymore.

Interesting. Have you any information relative to how many threads per core?