Wii U Speculation Thread 2: Can't take anymore of this!!!

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cyberheater said:
Remember that he's talking about a older dev kit and that they were expecting another revision.
I think the main thrust of what he was trying to say is obvious. I think they were expecting at least 2x current gen and realised that was never going to happen.
Giving what we know now. I expect the final hardware to have a similar performance or maybe just a tad more of current gen with hopefully more memory. If they did ship with 1gig then that would be a huge help for devs and make porting a lot easier.
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Yes but not for 720/ps4 games and certainly not powerful enough for next generation engines.
 
Goodlife said:
What mistake? Being the generation leader and making a bucket load of cash?????
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Oh come on. I really like my Wii but if Ninty had shipped with the performance and graphics on par with PS360 then they would still be selling shed loads, they would have had much more 3rd party support and I probably would have stuck to the one system.

My fear is that Ninty are going to do the same with the WiiU. If the power isn't there then it's not going to be a 10 year system. If Xbox 720 and PS4 is clearly much more powerful then WiiU will die a death like the Wii is doing now.
 
cyberheater said:
Oh come on. I really like my Wii but if Ninty had shipped with the performance and graphics on par with PS360 then they would still be selling shed loads, they would have had much more 3rd party support and I probably would have stuck to the one system.

My fear is that Ninty are going to do the same with the WiiU. If the power isn't there then it's not going to be a 10 year system. If Xbox 720 and PS4 is clearly much more powerful then WiiU will die a death like the Wii is doing now.
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Uh, that makes no sense. The 360 and PS3 are still a fair way behind and is highly unlikely that they will ever catch up to the Wii's sales.
If the Wii was on par, it would have been more expensive for consumers and / or lost a lot of money for Nintendo, like the PS3 and 360 has done for Sony and MS.
 
Speculation about the power of the dev kits, even the last few pages of Arkam saga - hasn't informed me one jot. I am less sure about what other people know, and I personally know about as much as I did last week... which isn't a lot.

I do hope Nintendo start getting some news out soon... tomorrow would be a good start. E3 can be the blow-out, but a few teases and incidental announcements to whip up hype towards the expo might be nice.
 
EatChildren said:
And despite all this I too still don't believe Arkam's information is 100% accurate, simply because numerous other sources have stated or implied that you can, in total, squeeze more grunt out of the Wii U than the 360 and PS3. But that is about where this speculation begins and ends. I've heard no concrete specifications that necessarily conflict with what Arkam has said. I don't have any notable reason to believe the system isn't a tri core out of order CPU, or that it doesn't have 1GB of RAM.
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Arkam has said he's not a software engineer. I would rather like to know what the nature of his interactions with the system *are*, if they're not in the realms of software development.

I'm reminded of the fact that it was an unwritten rule when I was in the games industry for the coding side of things to hold their cards very close to their chest, because if you give artists and designers an inch, they'll gladly take a mile.
 
Goodlife said:
Uh, that makes no sense. The 360 and PS3 are still a fair way behind and is highly unlikely that they will ever catch up to the Wii's sales.
If the Wii was on par, it would have been more expensive for consumers and / or lost a lot of money for Nintendo, like the PS3 and 360 has done for Sony and MS.
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I believe it was the waggle that sold the system. It was new and fresh. People support apple products for a reason. Casuals will flock to new experiences regardless of the price.
 
Goodlife said:
Uh, that makes no sense. The 360 and PS3 are still a fair way behind and is highly unlikely that they will ever catch up to the Wii's sales.
If the Wii was on par, it would have been more expensive for consumers and / or lost a lot of money for Nintendo, like the PS3 and 360 has done for Sony and MS.
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There is no doubt that Wii has been a very successful system for Nintendo but sales have dropped of the planet. I believe (my opinion) that the system would have had longer legs if the hardware was HD with reasonable performance from the get go.
 
I guess an underpowered Developer Kit would make sense in the case where Nintendo would limit the developers to a certain amount of use of the CPU, so that the processor still has enough juice left to run other aplications or future (hardware) extensions/upgrades beside the game itself.

Right?

Im no tech wizard, but i know the architecture of the hardware in a console is way different than that of a PC.
Bottlenecks mostly don't exist and there's isn't a Operating System that requires a big of the amount of RAM, like Vista for instance....

Realy curious what the crop of the cream can pull from this new Nintendo machine.

What i would like to see is a new Endless Ocean in full HD. The team who made the Japanese garden demo could handle it as it seems.
I would even settle for remakes of the first two games!
And a new SimCity would be rather nice.
The tablet controller would be excellent for these kinda games. All in my humblest opinion ofcourse.

One other thing, i realy hope it supports 3d party hardware extensions, like my G25, or mouse and keyboard.
 
Here is a thought.

What if the Wii U is only ever intended as a stop gap system? I mean, how far away are the next Xbox and Playstation machines in comparison to when the Wii U launches? Is it possible that Nintendo felt the need to release a machine comparable to the current generation because they knew it was too soon to really compete with Microsoft and Sony, but they had to do something because of the current situation with the Wii?

If Sony really do extend the PS3s lifespan for a considerable length of time, and the next Xbox releases say at the end of 2013, then releasing in autumn of 2012 with a 3 year lifespan and again in 2014/15 may not be a bad idea, I guess.

The whole notion of a 'generation' has been contorted now anyway.
 
I'm just going to go ahead and agree with EatChildren (never thought I'd say something like that) here and say that Arkham simply got his info wrong. For one, the original dev kits (of which he were talking about) were underclocked and underpowered. Hell, other devs claimed the original dev kits were about 50% stronger than the 360. I'm going to stick with what I've always thought (3 - 5 times the 360) and leave it at that. No more about this Arkham guy sense he never posted again and probably won't.
 
cyberheater said:
My fear is that Ninty are going to do the same with the WiiU. If the power isn't there then it's not going to be a 10 year system. If Xbox 720 and PS4 is clearly much more powerful then WiiU will die a death like the Wii is doing now.
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This is an argument about value, and I totally agree. What I care about most is functionality and value (present and future). If the WiiU is substantially underpowered compared to the competition again and doesn't release at a cheap price (cheaper than $250) it will be a low value offering. I love Nintendo's games and the promise of the tablet controller, but I refuse to buy overpriced old tech out of principle. It's akin to me going out and buying a 2002 Camaro for slightly less than for what I would spend buying a 2010 Camaro, to me that is not a good decision.
 
The Xbox 720 will be closer to the Wii U in performance than it will be to the PS4.
 
cyberheater said:
There is no doubt that Wii has been a very successful system for Nintendo but sales have dropped of the planet. I believe (my opinion) that the system would have had longer legs if the hardware was HD with reasonable performance from the get go.
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It may not have the legs of the other two, but is still going to outsell them.
 
Rösti;35333479 said:
Now, John's comment is a bit similar to what Arkam has written.
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I think you're miss interpreting Carmack's comment. The big problem with the Wii was it lacked the shader technology that has become the standard in the industry. I think what Carmack is commenting on is that the Wii-U is now using the same shader technology, and not a comment on the "power" of the console.
 
Goodlife said:
It may not have the legs of the other two, but is still going to outsell them.
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You're missing the point. This is about our hopes and aspirations for WiiU and how powerful we want it to be. Selling another underpowered system might be a good financial move for Nintendo but I'm simply not interested this time around.
 
It's really hard to design a console worse than the Xbox 360 in this day and age. Pretty sure you could stick an AMD integrated SOC in there, with 400 SP's, and have it dust an X360.

It's just frighteningly bad management by Nintendo imo if this is true.

It gets back to heat imo. I was looking up said AMD APU's and they use 100 watts, to be true. You probably cant fit 100 watts in that tiny ass Wii U box Nintendo showed.

I'm sorry, tar and feather me again, but the entire Wii U concept stinks of a colossal failure waiting to happen. Then again, I and everybody else said the same about the Wii before it released. However, this time I'm pretty sure the outcome really will be bad...

And as I've said many times before, the positive side for Nintendo fans might just be the thing is such an unmitigated failure, Nintendo might have to scrap it and start over very quickly, it literally may only last a couple of years imo.
 
cyberheater said:
You're missing the point. This is about our hopes and aspirations for WiiU and how powerful we want it to be. Selling another underpowered system might be a good financial move for Nintendo but I'm simply not interested this time around.
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That's fine, but you can't label the Wii a mistake just because it didn't work for you.
 
specialguy said:
It's really hard to design a console worse than the Xbox 360 in this day and age. Pretty sure you could stick an AMD integrated SOC in there, with 400 SP's, and have it dust an X360.
Click to expand...

One of the main issues folks had with the Wii is that is wasn't HD. If you wanted to design a system that cost as little as possible to make but was HD capable then I can see that bringing out a system that was on par with current gen console is right on the money.
 
specialguy said:
I'm sorry, tar and feather me again, but the entire Wii U concept stinks of a colossal failure waiting to happen. Then again, I and everybody else said the same about the Wii before it released. However, this time I'm pretty sure the outcome really will be bad...

And as I've said many times before, the positive side for Nintendo fans might just be the thing is such an unmitigated failure, Nintendo might have to scrap it and start over very quickly, it literally may only last a couple of years imo.
Click to expand...

You are definitely getting too far ahead of yourself here. Until we see the price, software lineup, and the full functionality/features of the WiiU it is foolish to make any judgments about how well it will perform on the market.
 
specialguy said:
It's really hard to design a console worse than the Xbox 360 in this day and age. Pretty sure you could stick an AMD integrated SOC in there, with 400 SP's, and have it dust an X360.

It's just frighteningly bad management by Nintendo imo if this is true.

It gets back to heat imo. I was looking up said AMD APU's and they use 100 watts, to be true. You probably cant fit 100 watts in that tiny ass Wii U box Nintendo showed.

I'm sorry, tar and feather me again, but the entire Wii U concept stinks of a colossal failure waiting to happen. Then again, I and everybody else said the same about the Wii before it released. However, this time I'm pretty sure the outcome really will be bad...

And as I've said many times before, the positive side for Nintendo fans might just be the thing is such an unmitigated failure, Nintendo might have to scrap it and start over very quickly, it literally may only last a couple of years imo.
Click to expand...

The only thing I don't like about your posts is that they only seem to cropped up when expectations about the WiiU are tempered. I do agree though that if the machine isn't capable of receiving next gen ports than it is doomed to fail and nintendo has learned nothing. It's hard to believe that they have a successful handheld infrastructure sometimes.
 
I can't wait until all the graphics whores leave Nintendo en masse like they've been promising (for decades, now). Bunch of fucking hysterical drama queens with zero appreciation for what they already have or the work that goes into it. These are the people who have been dragging video gaming down, setting the bar impossibly high for the industry - and for what? The games aren't getting more fun or challenging. Now they're just basically little movies written for 14 year olds whose parents let them hear curse words. Whoop-de-fucking-do. "Wow, I can clrealy see the wrinkles in that guy's forehead - this is so much more fun now. I feel so immersed." How many more wrinkles is it going to take before you guys are ever satisfied?

Nobody is impressed that the Wii U isn't powerful enough for you. Good job; I bet you also only fuck supermodels. Nintendo isn't doomed because they're not doing the "full gen upgrade" you've been wetting your pants over. The general gaming public doesn't share your obsession with pixel counting; they're simply into video games and if the games look nicer than last year, then that's a bonus. They don't lose their shit over hardware power like you do.
 
Goodlife said:
That's fine, but you can't label the Wii a mistake just because it didn't work for you.
Click to expand...

I bought a Wii + multiple Wiimotes + Wii balance boards etc... and no one in my house plays on it any more and I've got a couple of young kids. Kinect killed the Wii in our house. The kids much prefer the much better graphics.

I feel I'm left with an expensive turkey doing nothing.
 
specialguy said:
It's really hard to design a console worse than the Xbox 360 in this day and age. Pretty sure you could stick an AMD integrated SOC in there, with 400 SP's, and have it dust an X360.

It's just frighteningly bad management by Nintendo imo if this is true.

It gets back to heat imo. I was looking up said AMD APU's and they use 100 watts, to be true. You probably cant fit 100 watts in that tiny ass Wii U box Nintendo showed.

I'm sorry, tar and feather me again, but the entire Wii U concept stinks of a colossal failure waiting to happen. Then again, I and everybody else said the same about the Wii before it released. However, this time I'm pretty sure the outcome really will be bad...

And as I've said many times before, the positive side for Nintendo fans might just be the thing is such an unmitigated failure, Nintendo might have to scrap it and start over very quickly, it literally may only last a couple of years imo.
Click to expand...

What's most irritating about you is that I don't believe you really understand why your posts are grating.

I'm sure you THINK you do, but I seriously doubt it.
 
lednerg said:
I can't wait until all the graphics whores leave Nintendo en masse like they've been promising (for decades, now). Bunch of fucking hysterical drama queens with zero appreciation for what they already have or the work that goes into it. These are the people who have been dragging video gaming down, setting the bar impossibly high for the industry - and for what? The games aren't getting more fun or challenging. Now they're just basically little movies written for 14 year olds whose parents let them hear curse words. Whoop-de-fucking-do. "Wow, I can clrealy see the wrinkles in that guy's forehead - this is so much more fun now. I feel so immersed." How many more wrinkles is it going to take before you guys are ever satisfied?

Nobody is impressed that the Wii U isn't powerful enough for you. Good job; I bet you also only fuck supermodels. Nintendo isn't doomed because they're not doing the "full gen upgrade" you've been wetting your pants over. The general gaming public doesn't share your obsession with pixel counting; they're simply into video games and if the games look nicer than last year, then that's a bonus. They don't lose their shit over hardware power like you do.
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Woah. Wft? Nobody wants the WiiU to be uber powerful. But it needs to be in porting range of the other two next gen systems. It's as simple as that considered that nintendo is trying to win back the "core".

Edit: I would love to solely game on one console next gen and considering that I can't live without Nintendo's first party efforts if the WiiU also got next gen ports well that would just be the bee's knees.
 
specialguy said:
It's really hard to design a console worse than the Xbox 360 in this day and age. Pretty sure you could stick an AMD integrated SOC in there, with 400 SP's, and have it dust an X360.

It's just frighteningly bad management by Nintendo imo if this is true.

It gets back to heat imo. I was looking up said AMD APU's and they use 100 watts, to be true. You probably cant fit 100 watts in that tiny ass Wii U box Nintendo showed.

I'm sorry, tar and feather me again, but the entire Wii U concept stinks of a colossal failure waiting to happen. Then again, I and everybody else said the same about the Wii before it released. However, this time I'm pretty sure the outcome really will be bad...

And as I've said many times before, the positive side for Nintendo fans might just be the thing is such an unmitigated failure, Nintendo might have to scrap it and start over very quickly, it literally may only last a couple of years imo.
Click to expand...

And the the 3DS may have been a big failure too, except it isn't. The Wii may have been a big failure except it hasn't been for Nintendo. The Xbox 360 may have been a big failure except it hasn't been. The Gamecube may have been a big failure except it wasn't for Nintendo. I can go on.
 
DragonKnight said:
Woah. Wft? Nobody wants the WiiU to be uber powerful. But it needs to be in porting range of the other two next gen systems. It's as simple as that considered that nintendo is trying to win back the "core".
Click to expand...

And nobody in the industry, indluding this Arkam character, has said it won't be "in porting range". If you think it won't, then you are acting under a complete misunderstanding of how game engines scale.
 
Shin Johnpv said:
I think you're miss interpreting Carmack's comment. The big problem with the Wii was it lacked the shader technology that has become the standard in the industry. I think what Carmack is commenting on is that the Wii-U is now using the same shader technology, and not a comment on the "power" of the console.
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Yeah, I know the interview was mostly concerning id Tech 5 and its future uses, so my remarks on what he said may not be all that accurate.
 
You know. In a way. It's a bit of a relief that WiiU will be at least similar in performance to Xbox360. With Nintendo, you just never know.
 
tkscz said:
I'm just going to go ahead and agree with EatChildren (never thought I'd say something like that) here and say that Arkham simply got his info wrong. For one, the original dev kits (of which he were talking about) were underclocked and underpowered. Hell, other devs claimed the original dev kits were about 50% stronger than the 360. I'm going to stick with what I've always thought (3 - 5 times the 360) and leave it at that. No more about this Arkham guy sense he never posted again and probably won't.
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Dude.. dude.. you really shouldn't set yourself up for disappointment like that. It's so much easier assuming it will be on the level of PS360 (Amazing looking 1st party games) and then being pleasantly surprised when it is actually 1.5-2x faster. After the 3DS price cut response, I'm going to lower the bar quite a bit from the enthusiasm I used to have for its potential power.
 
cyberheater said:
I bought a Wii + multiple Wiimotes + Wii balance boards etc... and no one in my house plays on it any more and I've got a couple of young kids. Kinect killed the Wii in our house. The kids much prefer the much better graphics.

I feel I'm left with an expensive turkey doing nothing.
Click to expand...

I feel like I'm echoing my 2006 self, but I really think that graphics are going to be acceptable across the board no matter what for the majority of consumers out there. HD makes such a considerable difference, I think anything else is just gravy for most gamers.

I just hope the Wii U will be capable of receiving ports next gen. It should, I just worry it wont.
 
lednerg said:
And nobody in the industry, indluding this Arkam character, has said it won't be "in porting range". If you think it won't, then you are acting under a complete misunderstanding of how game engines scale.
Click to expand...

Well then enlighten me but I fail to see where anybody in this thread has been demanding power rather than pleading for a system that sees prominent and relevant third party games. To respond to your statement I an under the impression that at the very least a system needs to have a minimum set of specs to run an engine. But, to use Arkam's info, how can a system that is on par with say a 360 get ports of games that are designed for next gen hardware? Serious question.
 
cyberheater said:
I feel I'm left with an expensive turkey doing nothing.
Click to expand...
I'm not replying to you, I just think this is hilarious.

Nintendo marches to the beat of their own drummer. Wii showed us that they didn't care what their competitors in the industry were doing at the time. It was the natural successor to Gamecube and looked under-powered to enthusiasts but not to millions in the mass market.

I imagine Nintendo plans on releasing the Wii U as a successor to the Wii, and not the PS3/360. Which means it will probably look under-powered once again to many people.

I'm more interested in seeing if MS/Sony will reel it back in hardware wise this generation to closer to where it's supposed to be.
 
guek said:
I feel like I'm echoing my 2006 self, but I really think that graphics are going to be acceptable across the board no matter what for the majority of consumers out there. HD makes such a considerable difference, I think anything else is just gravy for most gamers.

I just hope the Wii U will be capable of receiving ports next gen. It should, I just worry it wont.
Click to expand...

And you just summed up what I think everyone who is "championing" power is trying to say. No one here is asking or expecting an extremely powerful cutting edge system. We just want the same damn games that can be found on the 720/ps4.
 
People have to explain why 720/PS4 games won't be able to be ported to the 360/PS3 before their 'concerns' about the Wii U's port-ability can be addressed.
 
Arkam's reign of terror will be over soon enough, and everyone shall easily put their worries to rest. For now just hold tight. Why am I so sure? I make coffee and do laundry for a major third party company.
 
lednerg said:
I can't wait until all the graphics whores leave Nintendo en masse like they've been promising (for decades, now). Bunch of fucking hysterical drama queens with zero appreciation for what they already have or the work that goes into it. These are the people who have been dragging video gaming down, setting the bar impossibly high for the industry - and for what? The games aren't getting more fun or challenging. Now they're just basically little movies written for 14 year olds whose parents let them hear curse words. Whoop-de-fucking-do. "Wow, I can clrealy see the wrinkles in that guy's forehead - this is so much more fun now. I feel so immersed." How many more wrinkles is it going to take before you guys are ever satisfied?

Nobody is impressed that the Wii U isn't powerful enough for you. Good job; I bet you also only fuck supermodels. Nintendo isn't doomed because they're not doing the "full gen upgrade" you've been wetting your pants over. The general gaming public doesn't share your obsession with pixel counting; they're simply into video games and if the games look nicer than last year, then that's a bonus. They don't lose their shit over hardware power like you do.
Click to expand...

One of the few NeoGAF posts I feel it has been extracted from my brain, word by word.
 
z0m3le said:
I think Arkam really helped any speculation we could of had, it means 1TFlops is off the table, especially if people think an HD6670 is the base for x720, I will stop speculating with hard numbers, but something based on one of these types of GPUs would have half the memory bus (128bit) in Wii U it would be a low clocked part with maybe twice the Gflops in early dev units, but it would have modern shaders (with "plenty of features" that arkam is talking about and yet have "no teeth")

That is exactly what trinity is, Nintendo did happen to patent Triforce again, maybe they will use it for the code name of their GPU, to be honest this would put the hard numbers around 2x the 360 and I'm ok with that.
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I think you're holding too hard to the 6670 aspect of the rumor. The 6670 isn't that far from a TFLOP, they could have started with a base 6670, die shrunk it and upped it's clock. Plus it's said to be 6x Xenos, which if I remember right is what a .24/5 TFLOP part. 6x would get us around 1.5 TFLOPs. If that's 20% faster than the Wii-U GPU that would give us 1.25 TFLOPs for the Wii-U.

The problem here is that we're speculating with rough estimates that we don't know their exact meaning. Is the 6x number DIRECTLY referencing it's G/TFLOPs, or is it some arbitrary number being thrown out.

Is the reference to the 6670 supposed to tell us it's shader cores, or is it more saying it's based on a Turks chip. We don't know how that chip has been customized. What would they have if they took a 6670 Turks chip, shrunk it down from 40nm to 32/28 and upped it's clock from 800 to 900 or 950?

Or is your assumption right and we're looking at sub 1TFLOP peformance for the 720 and Wii-U? A straight up 6670 would give you 768 gflops and the low end of what was rumored to be in the Wii-U dev kits would be like a 4830 would give you 736 gflops.

I think until we have solid info on clock speeds, shader core counts, and the like, try to speculate hard number performance out of the info we have is too difficult. There's too many variables, and too much else we don't know.
 
lednerg said:
I can't wait until all the graphics whores leave Nintendo en masse like they've been promising (for decades, now). Bunch of fucking hysterical drama queens with zero appreciation for what they already have or the work that goes into it. These are the people who have been dragging video gaming down, setting the bar impossibly high for the industry - and for what? The games aren't getting more fun or challenging. Now they're just basically little movies written for 14 year olds whose parents let them hear curse words. Whoop-de-fucking-do. "Wow, I can clrealy see the wrinkles in that guy's forehead - this is so much more fun now. I feel so immersed." How many more wrinkles is it going to take before you guys are ever satisfied?

Nobody is impressed that the Wii U isn't powerful enough for you. Good job; I bet you also only fuck supermodels. Nintendo isn't doomed because they're not doing the "full gen upgrade" you've been wetting your pants over. The general gaming public doesn't share your obsession with pixel counting; they're simply into video games and if the games look nicer than last year, then that's a bonus. They don't lose their shit over hardware power like you do.
Click to expand...

Thank you for this post. That first paragraph sums up HD gaming right now.
 
lednerg said:
People have to explain why 720/PS4 games won't be able to be ported to the 360/PS3 before their 'concerns' about the Wii U's port-ability can be addressed.
Click to expand...

It'll come down to how much extra work devs have to do. If it's a pain in the ass like it was with the Wii to optimize and strip down the visuals of a game to Wii U levels, devs wont do it. They sure as hell aren't going to use Wii U as the lead platform if it's substantially weaker than the other two.

If the PS4/720 is packing 2gb of ram running 1.5TFLOPs vs the Wii U's 768mb of ram and gpu/cpu only capable of 0.3TFLOPs, they simply might not bother. I'm not necessarily worried about an inability to port, I'm worried more about developer apathy. A gulf that large would be a worst case scenario of course.
 
It would be hilarious if, as of as year's E3, Nintendo intended Wii U to be the PS2 of next gen. They were planning on pricing it at $399 and making it a beast.

Then, the 3DS "failed". They were forced to drop the price, and lose money on each console sold.

After that experience, they decided to scrap the current plans with Wii U. Price matters, and making a profit on each console sold matters. So it's not as powerful as a 360, but they're going to price it at $250 and make a profit on each unit sold.
 
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