Support NeoGAF

[Shin Johnpv]

This may be a bit unrealistic but I could see a scenario where sony and MS make a sort of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" pact and both hold off on new consoles until 2014. This would make the Wii U look like it's not a real leap into next-gen, sort of like the dreamcast. I think both companies fear that Nintendo would gain too much momentum to let that happen, but it would be an interesting turn of events.

I think Sony and MS would be really hurting themselves. This isn't Sega coming off the failed (but man was it awesome so many good 2d games) Saturn with the Dreamcast. This is Nintendo coming off their best selling home console in decades. I think it would be really dangerous for Sony and MS to do that. Could you imagine how much worse a position MS and Nintendo would have been in if they had let the PS2 have 2 years unchallenged on the market. I'm not saying the Wii-U is going to be another PS2 or Wii, but I think it's really dangerous to let the current gen's market leader have 2 years unchallenged with their successor.

I think this is very likely - if not as explicit agreement, at least on an implicitlevel this is what they will try to do. The difference is that this time it might actually work - this time Nintendo does not have a brilliantly unique controller and a casual crowd pleaser to negate the technical difference - hence the Dreamcast analogy would be accurate if Sony and MS aligned.

It's not accurate at all though. The Dreamcast was the sequel to a console that game in 3rd place. It was also early, in the sense that the Saturn only had 4 years on the market. Plus Sega was in a really bad place money wise, and they didn't have ANY EA games on their system. The Wii-U is coming after the Wii, which has been insanely successful, is coming 6 years after the Wii hit, Nintendo has a metric shit ton of cash money, and has almost every major publisher with an announced game for it. It's also a time period when diminishing returns, and budget costs are going to be causing power differences to not be as noticeable. It's completely different than the Dreamcast situation.

 

[JJConrad]

I think we won't see it again before E3 2012. We are pretty much at the same point now as in September 2005 - no games actually utilizing the hardware anywhere near its potential, instead last gen demos of new controller. The only difference is that Nintendo showed the bird demo and Zelda demo to give a feel of the performance. Similar to Spaceworld 2000.

History points to E3 2012 real reveal, Autumn release.

History isn't really pointing anywhere right now. We're still technically level with the 3DS at this point in time, because we know it won't release in February. If they wait until E3, then a Fall release (at the soonest) is unquestionable.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

Is possible that the dev kits didn't had the embedded 1T-SRAM at 22nm the final units will. Kind of a big deal if the memory is indeed DD3.

I feel like I do this a lot in this thread, buy could you put in layman's terms what that would mean for the Wii U's performance?

 

[bgassassin]

Is possible that the dev kits didn't had the embedded 1T-SRAM at 22nm the final units will. Kind of a big deal if the memory is indeed DD3.

You must mean 28nm. But yeah one thing I've felt since the beginning was that the early dev kits didn't have the eDRAM to mimic what the final will have. That would affect how the targets would look now compared to where they can be.

I feel like I do this a lot in this thread, buy could you put in layman's terms what that would mean for the Wii U's performance?

Read my response to AzureJericho.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31053844&postcount=6121

 

[Xdrive05]

Has anything been verified about the method of BC implementation, ie: hardware or software emulation?

Wouldn't it be reasonable (and cheap) to put a Wii CPU and GPU in the Wii U for true BC?

 

[Deku]

I think this is very likely - if not as explicit agreement, at least on an implicitlevel this is what they will try to do. The difference is that this time it might actually work - this time Nintendo does not have a brilliantly unique controller and a casual crowd pleaser to negate the technical difference - hence the Dreamcast analogy would be accurate if Sony and MS aligned.

If Sega had stuck with the DC and just plowed money into it, it would have probably turfed the Xbox out.

The same way the PS3 would be a failure of Saturn and Dreamcast proportions combined if it wasn't simply because of Sony's financial power to eat all those losses for three years.

Well actually, it's still a failure.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

But here's the question: why would they bother saying that they're exited about the specs when they could just talk about the controller if they feel it's not powerful enough? Zoramon is right; if they were talking about Sony or MS hardware, you'd be saying that it means that whatever console they're talking about is quite powerful.

And this is why I felt there was no need to make a tread for that news. So many people here who want Wii U to be weak.

I want the Wii U to succeed. When it was revealed I was close to being a day 1 kinda guy. I was psyched for it. I bought the 3DS day 1 and unlike many I don't regret the decision. I bought the Wii and it has left a distaste in my mouth so to speak but it didn't stop me from buying the 3DS. I am not one to hope for any console to fail, especially from Nintendo.

If Crytek had said they were happy with the specs of a Microsoft or Sony console I'd still question them since I really don't believe anything they say after how they handled Crysis 2.

 

[antonz]

Has anything been verified about the method of BC implementation, ie: hardware or software emulation?

Wouldn't it be reasonable (and cheap) to put a Wii CPU and GPU in the Wii U for true BC?

It would be cheap but it would eat into the money for the new system. Its very likely the new PowerPC chip is setup in a fashion to allow proper utilization of the Wii software while killing the Gamecube capability.

As for the devkits I doubt much of anything in them is from the final system.

 

[Pancakes R Us]

Pokemon Black/White has video chat.

Really? Damn, colour me shocked!

/never been into Pokemon

 

[antonz]

Really? Damn, colour me shocked!

/never been into Pokemon

Yeah Nintendo is taking the babysteps to getting with the times on the communication front. They did advertise Video Calling as a feature at E3 for the Wii U and with Nintendo going with a 2nd company for Wii U cameras instead of the 3DS provider there is hope for a nice Camera

 

[Übermatik]

Now I really don't know what to expect. I should just stop thinking about this. I'm going to go back to complaining about what I was complaining about before:

ANALOGS AND TRIGGERS NINTENDO, DUH.

Shit's tweaked, things stay similar.

Better?

also I don't buy that bird demo for a second. I just don't see a fully populated game looking nearly as good as that.

It's because you're used to seeing sub-par graphics on the Wii. Achieving this level of graphics for next gen is perfectly reasonable - remember, this system is allegedly 2-3x as powerful as the PS3. Graphics will be better.

Also, some of the textures in the bird demo were a bit... iffy.

 

[guek]

I want the Wii U to succeed. When it was revealed I was close to being a day 1 kinda guy. I was psyched for it. I bought the 3DS day 1 and unlike many I don't regret the decision. I bought the Wii and it has left a distaste in my mouth so to speak but it didn't stop me from buying the 3DS. I am not one to hope for any console to fail, especially from Nintendo.

If Crytek had said they were happy with the specs of a Microsoft or Sony console I'd still question them since I really don't believe anything they say after how they handled Crysis 2.

what about gearbox saying it offers a level of visual fidelity not seen before on consoles?

That interview gives us a lot more information than crytek's offhand remark. They explained that the only reason the wii U has been referred to as a transitional device is because it's unknown to most what MS and Sony have in the pipeline. They seem really optimistic with the system though.

This leads me to believe that the Wii U is likely packing tech that's impressive but not anywhere close to cutting edge. It's just about universally been acknowledged that the Wii U is more powerful than the HD twins, but I think the amount of raw power hasn't blown away devs because current high end PCs are 100% positively going to be more capable. There's no chance in hell the Wii U is going to be competitive with high end PC specs. But that doesn't mean they're not still going to be able to blow the PS3/360 out of the water. Furthermore, I find it highly unlikely that the PS4/720 are going to compete with current PCs either.


The other thing to consider is that while devs aren't going to be wowed by the specs on paper (compared to PC specs), they also don't have any experienced working with something like the Wii U in a closed environment. Considering how far the PS3 and 360 have been pushed with the old tech they're packing, we're certainly going to see some impressive games on the Wii U. We also haven't heard of any real exclusives being developed for the system yet aside from Ubisoft's killer freaks (which was shown way way way too early in its development). Of course you're not going to get that much extra juice out of the improved specs when you're porting over from older hardware.

But all this hardware talk is moot. Like it's been said before, the second they show zelda/mario/metroid in HD, people will come running.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

what about gearbox saying it offers a level of visual fidelity not seen before on consoles?

That interview gives us a lot more information than crytek's offhand remark. They explained that the only reason the wii U has been referred to as a transitional device is because it's unknown to most what MS and Sony have in the pipeline. They seem really optimistic with the system though.

This leads me to believe that the Wii U is likely packing tech that's impressive but not anywhere close to cutting edge. It's just about universally been acknowledged that the Wii U is more powerful than the HD twins, but I think the amount of raw power hasn't blown away devs because current high end PCs are 100% positively going to be more capable. There's no chance in hell the Wii U is going to be competitive with high end PC specs. But that doesn't mean they're not still going to be able to blow the PS3/360 out of the water. Furthermore, I find it highly unlikely that the PS4/720 are going to compete with current PCs either.


The other thing to consider is that while devs aren't going to be wowed by the specs on paper (compared to PC specs), they also don't have any experienced working with something like the Wii U in a closed environment. Considering how far the PS3 and 360 have been pushed with the old tech they're packing, we're certainly going to see some impressive games on the Wii U. We also haven't heard of any real exclusives being developed for the system yet aside from Ubisoft's killer freaks (which was shown way way way too early in its development). Of course you're not going to get that much extra juice out of the improved specs when you're porting over from older hardware.

But all this hardware talk is moot. Like it's been said before, the second they show zelda/mario/metroid in HD, people will come running.

And those are definitely fair points and all of this IMO is contingent on Microsoft/Sony having a huge improvement graphically next gen. When we look at the next Xbox/PS, I doubt we're going to say 'at least its more powerful than its predecessors'; however we are saying that about the Wii U which IMO isn't some glowing praise. It's the equivalent of praising your F student for getting straight C's while his friends are getting A's. It's an improvement but it has to be.

If the Wii U arrives in 2012 and the PS4/next Box arrives late 2013/ early 2014, being significantly less powerful will significantly hamper the Wii U. The 360 arrived a year prior to the PS3/Wii but was basically equivalent in power to the PS3 while being significantly more powerful than the Wii so it didn't have the issues that the Wii had later in its life. If the Wii is significantly less powerful than the other two next gen, it WILL run into something similar as the Wii. I don't see how that is even debatable.

 

[antonz]

And those are definitely fair points and all of this IMO is contingent on Microsoft/Sony having a huge improvement graphically next gen. When we look at the next Xbox/PS, I doubt we're going to say 'at least its more powerful than its predecessors'; however we are saying that about the Wii U which IMO isn't some glowing praise. It's the equivalent of praising your F student for getting straight C's while his friends are getting A's. It's an improvement but it has to be.

If the Wii U arrives in 2012 and the PS4/next Box arrives late 2013/ early 2014, while being significantly less powerful that is problematic. The 360 arrived a year prior to the PS3/Wii but was basically equivalent in power to the PS3 while being significantly more powerful than the Wii so it didn't have the issues that the Wii had later in its life. If the Wii is significantly less powerful than the other two next gen, it WILL run into something similar as the Wii. I don't see how that is even debatable.

The real difference is in the fact the Wii U unlike the Wii will remain powerful enough to run the Next Gen Engines. Rabid Graphics whores will end up turned off by the Wii U Because Unreal 4 as nice as on the others but it will still run in HD.

 

[AceBandage]

So has there been anything new or is it the same old arguments going over and over?

 

[antonz]

So has there been anything new or is it the same old arguments going over and over?

There is this that was posted at Beyond3D

"Wii U uses 28nm manufacturing process from NEC and 1T-SRAM from MoSys"

 

[AceBandage]

There is this that was posted at Beyond3D

28nm is surprising. 1T-SRAM not so much.

 

[watershed]

There is this that was posted at Beyond3D

Someone said that using 28nm would push the production date and subsequently the release date further away, does that make sense?

 

[guek]

So has there been anything new or is it the same old arguments going over and over?

crytek also recently stated they were happy with the hardware

 

[antonz]

Someone said that using 28nm would push the production date and subsequently the release date further away, does that make sense?

Well it depends really. 28nm is really just getting into gear so intially yields will be low but if they still planned the mid year launch I dont see why there would be a delay. Ive heard more issues of the economy causing manufacturers to limit production at the new process than any issue with the process tech itself

 

[AceBandage]

crytek also recently stated they were happy with the hardware

Also not all that surprising but still good to hear.

 

[BurntPork]

Oh hey, Ace is back.

Someone said that using 28nm would push the production date and subsequently the release date further away, does that make sense?

This is why it's unlikely that 28nm is for anything other than the memory. GPU is almost certainly 40nm or 32nm. (And don't call me crazy, since others will definitely agree with this about any console launching in 2012.) I don't see a console with a 28nm GPU as viable until mid 2013.

 

[antonz]

Nintendo planning to use 28nm could explain some of the devkit issues too such as running too hot. Seeing as devkits dont have access to 28nm parts yet they are using similar parts but in older processes that run much hotter etc. Take a 4850 or a 4770 and bring it down to 28nm and its gonna be much more friendly to the small case

 

[AceBandage]

Oh hey, Ace is back.


This is why it's unlikely that 28nm is for anything other than the memory. GPU is almost certainly 40nm or 32nm. (And don't call me crazy, since others will definitely agree with this about any console launching in 2012.) I don't see a console with a 28nm GPU as viable until mid 2013.

Yup, just got unpacked from my trip to Myrtle Beach.

Pics forthcoming.

 

[BurntPork]

Nintendo planning to use 28nm could explain some of the devkit issues too such as running too hot. Seeing as devkits dont have access to 28nm parts yet they are using similar parts but in older processes that run much hotter etc. Take a 4850 or a 4770 and bring it down to 28nm and its gonna be much more friendly to the small case

I still don't think the yields will be enough, and it would be too expensive.

And, honestly, anything less than a 6790 (underclocked to ~700MHz would be fine) at 28nm would disgust me. Really, at a process that small, it should be at least a 960SP part at 600MHz, minimum. I'd prefer 1120SPs at 500-600MHz. I'd love a VLIW4-based 960SP at 650MHz.

Yup, just got unpacked from my trip to Myrtle Beach.

Pics forthcoming.

Hope you had fun. Now you can get back to making me cry.

 

[bgassassin]

So has there been anything new or is it the same old arguments going over and over?

You're alive?

Nintendo planning to use 28nm could explain some of the devkit issues too such as running too hot. Seeing as devkits dont have access to 28nm parts yet they are using similar parts but in older processes that run much hotter etc. Take a 4850 or a 4770 and bring it down to 28nm and its gonna be much more friendly to the small case

No that means they're going to be putting more power into it. Or that's what I've read.

EDIT: See the post above.

 

[syko de4d]

Oh hey, Ace is back.


This is why it's unlikely that 28nm is for anything other than the memory. GPU is almost certainly 40nm or 32nm. (And don't call me crazy, since others will definitely agree with this about any console launching in 2012.) I don't see a console with a 28nm GPU as viable until mid 2013.

Mhh why we can get Mainstream Laptops with AMD Fusion 28NM in early-mid 2012 but no mainstream console with 28NM?

 

[AceBandage]

Hope you had fun. Now you can get back to making me cry.

Maybe later.
>_>

Anyway, I dunno about a 6790 being in the Wii U, but we'll see.
It's obvious that what we saw at E3 was far from the final product.

 

[BurntPork]

Mhh why we can get Mainstream Laptops with AMD Fusion 28NM in early-mid 2012 but no mainstream console with 28NM?

Because it would be too expensive.

Maybe later.
>_>

Anyway, I dunno about a 6790 being in the Wii U, but we'll see.
It's obvious that what we saw at E3 was far from the final product.

An underclocked 6790 is basically a 4850 with more features and GDDR5. Perfectly reasonable.

 

[TunaLover]

Do you think that Nintendo worked with 28nm in mind from the beggining? Or they switched to that in order to increase power and cram all that in a small case?

 

[AceBandage]

Do you think that Nintendo worked with 28nm in mind from the beggining? Or they switched to that in order to increase power and cram all that in a small case?

Knowing Nintendo, a bit of both.
With all their systems that have like a dozen different directions in mind that they can switch to, and how they choose the final one is anyone's guess.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The PS3 is seeing pretty terrible YoY decline and has a pretty bad game lineup for 2012. Keeping it going until 2014 is just going to make people forget about Playstation.

 

[EloquentM]

The PS3 is seeing pretty terrible YoY decline and has a pretty bad game lineup for 2012. Keeping it going until 2014 is just going to make people forget about Playstation.

Wrong thread?

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Knowing Nintendo, a bit of both.
With all their systems that have like a dozen different directions in mind that they can switch to, and how they choose the final one is anyone's guess.

Could this direction also be a result of early Microsoft rumors within the industry? They figured it was worth the extra cost and power to be more parallel with the new releases?

 

[BurntPork]

Do you think that Nintendo worked with 28nm in mind from the beggining? Or they switched to that in order to increase power and cram all that in a small case?

We don't even know if 28nm is just for the memory, so let's not jump the gun.

That said, 28nm would be pretty expensive, so I would think/hope that Nintendo would make the case bigger before deciding to significantly increase production costs. If 28nm is being used for the GPU, it's either the former or a combination of the two.

 

[AceBandage]

Could this direction also be a result of early Microsoft rumors within the industry? They figured it was worth the extra cost and power to be more parallel with the new releases?

It's doubtful Nintendo reacted directly to anything Sony or MS is doing.
If anything, it's a reaction to developer feedback on their expectations.

 

[Fantastical]

Wrong thread?

People were talking about Microsoft and Sony not wanting to get a console out soon. He's saying that the PlayStation 3 and to a lesser extent the PlayStation brand has questionable health at the moment.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Wrong thread?

There was speculation about PS4 and Xbox 3 not coming until 2014 at the top of this page, probably should have quoted though since it was from three hours ago.

 

[antonz]

I do want to point out the 28nm process mentioned at beyond3D does not specifically say its for ram. They said they were informed the Wii U itself is using the 28nm process and 1T-SRAM.

One thing we know for sure is 45nm CPU.

 

[EloquentM]

I gotcha.

 

[BurntPork]

The PS3 is seeing pretty terrible YoY decline and has a pretty bad game lineup for 2012. Keeping it going until 2014 is just going to make people forget about Playstation.

They could be relying on Vita to keep the brand afloat. (And the fact that Vita is almost as perfect as it can possibly be hardware-wise, that seems likely.)

I do want to point out the 28nm process mentioned at beyond3D does not specifically say its for ram. They said they were informed the Wii U itself is using the 28nm process and 1T-SRAM.

One thing we know for sure is 45nm CPU.

I know, but it's a bit vague either way. It could mean the GPU, the RAM, the chipset, a mess of things, really.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

They could be relying on Vita to keep the brand afloat. (And the fact that Vita is almost as perfect as it can possibly be hardware-wise, that seems likely.)

Even if the Vita kept people thinking about Sony in gaming to the same degree (Which I don't think it will at all but that is completely off-topic so I won't go there), I don't get why Sony would want to go through 2013 with no new console on the way while the PS3 struggles along at current PSP numbers every NPD.

 

[watershed]

Even if the Vita kept people thinking about Sony in gaming to the same degree (Which I don't think it will at all but that is completely off-topic so I won't go there), I don't get why Sony would want to go through 2013 with no new console on the way while the PS3 struggles along at current PSP numbers every NPD.

Its possible its not a want but just an unfortunate market reality they have to face.

 

[LeleSocho]

I'm expecting nothing less than a 6750m, if it can fit in a Macbook Pro it can fit even in the WiiU

 

[AceBandage]

I'm expecting nothing less than a 6750m, if it can fit in a Macbook Pro it can fit even in the WiiU

Bleh, no.
Even if the Mobile units are "technically" more powerful than older desktop ones, they usually give up important things.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

t WILL run into something similar as the Wii. I don't see how that is even debatable.

It's easily debatable. The problem the Wii ran into is that they went with what was in essence an upscalled version of their previous GPU. In that time between when the GC and Wii shipped, AMD and Nvidia introduced some really cool things into GPU hardware, things that got included in the GPU's found in the PS3 and 360. So when game devs were making their engines for the PS3 and 360 they included alot of this stuff, some of it could be done in other ways on the Wii and some of it couldn't. It made it really difficult to create Wii versions of some games, usually resulting in going back to square one. With the Wii-U using a chip from the RV700 line that is not going to be the case this time. Neither AMD, nor ATI have really introduced anything major or huge since then. Yes tessellation has improved, BUT the RV700 line does have a tessellation engine on it, it's just not as good as what's found on newer chips. Though it's something they could add to the chip for the Wii-U. So any of the graphics engines that they create for the PS4/NeXtBox are going to be doable on the Wii-U. They may have to lower some settings but the Wii-U is never going to be in the situation where engines just can not be run on it because of it missing X,Y, and Z feature.

So yes it is fully debatable, and it's not going to run into anything similar as the issue the Wii ran into.

 

[antonz]

I'm expecting nothing less than a 6750m, if it can fit in a Macbook Pro it can fit even in the WiiU

The general range of GPU would be fairly similar to that. The 6750M performs more or less at the level of the 5570 Desktop card which for all intent purposes is a glorified 4850

 

[bgassassin]

We don't even know if 28nm is just for the memory, so let's not jump the gun.

That said, 28nm would be pretty expensive, so I would think/hope that Nintendo would make the case bigger before deciding to significantly increase production costs. If 28nm is being used for the GPU, it's either the former or a combination of the two.

It's not just referring to memory. NEC has done this before with Nintendo consoles.

Flipper - 0.18 microns NEC Embedded DRAM Process

Hollywood - NEC Electronics today announced that Nintendo Co., Ltd. has selected NEC Electronics' 90-nanometer (nm) CMOS-compatible embedded DRAM (eDRAM) technology for Wii ...

It's the GPU size.

 

[BurntPork]

I'm expecting nothing less than a 6750m, if it can fit in a Macbook Pro it can fit even in the WiiU

Considering how poor MBPs are with cooling, they're not a good example for anything like this.

Anyway, the 6750M is a weak GPU. It's only about twice as fast as the 360 and would not be enough to keep Wii U relevant for more than a couple of years before it falls into a Wii situation. It would not be acceptable at 28nm. It would barely be acceptable at 40nm.

It's not just referring to memory. NEC has done this before with Nintendo consoles.

Flipper - 0.18 microns NEC Embedded DRAM Process

Hollywood - NEC Electronics today announced that Nintendo Co., Ltd. has selected NEC Electronics' 90-nanometer (nm) CMOS-compatible embedded DRAM (eDRAM) technology for Wii ...

It's the GPU size.

...

OMFG

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

It's easily debatable. The problem the Wii ran into is that they went with what was in essence an upscalled version of their previous GPU. In that time between when the GC and Wii shipped, AMD and Nvidia introduced some really cool things into GPU hardware, things that got included in the GPU's found in the PS3 and 360. So when game devs were making their engines for the PS3 and 360 they included alot of this stuff, some of it could be done in other ways on the Wii and some of it couldn't. It made it really difficult to create Wii versions of some games, usually resulting in going back to square one. With the Wii-U using a chip from the RV700 line that is not going to be the case this time. Neither AMD, nor ATI have really introduced anything major or huge since then. Yes tessellation has improved, BUT the RV700 line does have a tessellation engine on it, it's just not as good as what's found on newer chips. Though it's something they could add to the chip for the Wii-U. So any of the graphics engines that they create for the PS4/NeXtBox are going to be doable on the Wii-U. They may have to lower some settings but the Wii-U is never going to be in the situation where engines just can not be run on it because of it missing X,Y, and Z feature.

So yes it is fully debatable, and it's not going to run into anything similar as the issue the Wii ran into.

Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the information.