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[efyu_lemonardo]

It's not. 802.11n uses a different frequency.

I was basing it off of this:

http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/wireless/2006/0206wireless1.html



edit: I guess I'm still missing something? perhaps bandwidth constraints from operating in a multi-protocol environment?

 

[UncleSporky]

Positing technical reasons for why it wasn't done isn't a justification that it's subpar service.

You're absolutely right. All these technical reasons why the Xbox One and PS4 don't have backward compatibility are nothing but BS, it's their responsibility to provide the service to us.

Who cares if it's physically impossible, given the contents of the console. Impossibilities are no excuse!

 

[w1gglyjones]

Who cares if it's physically impossible, given the contents of the console. Impossibilities are no excuse!

This is simply your assumption because you are creating scenarios and asking every tom dick and harry who doesn't work at Nintendo "how would they solve this, eh tough guy?"

Thanks for not quoting the entire post, I'll quote it here:

This is 100% completely a service issue. Consumer's should demand service that is above and beyond. If this feature works as-is for you, that's great. But the service is lacking. Positing technical reasons for why it wasn't done isn't a justification for it being subpar service. It's Nintendo's job to figure out how to do shit and deliver quality services and features... and then they wonder why Wii U sales are down.

 

[UncleSporky]

This is simply your assumption because you are creating scenarios and asking every tom dick and harry who doesn't work at Nintendo "how would they solve this, eh tough guy?"

If you want to argue that it's possible, then do so.

Don't waffle on your own argument and say that even though it's impossible, that's no excuse.

 

[KojiKnight]

Who cares if it's physically impossible, given the contents of the console. Impossibilities are no excuse!

Opinions are not facts, you shouldn't treat them as such.

 

[wsippel]

This is 100% completely a service issue. Consumer's should demand service that is above and beyond. If this feature works as-is for you, that's great. But the service is lacking. Positing technical reasons for why it wasn't done isn't a justification for it being subpar service. It's Nintendo's job to figure out how to do shit and deliver quality services and features... and then they wonder why Wii U sales are down.

The fact that the system doesn't give blowjobs is also a service issue I assume? Yep, really subpar. Who carers that it simply couldn't work, it's Nintendo's damn job to figure something out! No wonder nobody buys the stupid thing!

 

[UncleSporky]

Opinions are not facts, you shouldn't treat them as such.

With this statement I didn't make any sort of claim as to whether it is possible or not. I highlighted the ridiculousness of his statement, which was that even if it is impossible, that is no excuse.

He says it right there. "Technical reasons are no justification for poor service." Apply this globally to any given device and you can see why it's total BS.

 

[masud]

Skyward Sword looks great on the game pad. I would never play a Wii game like this but it's pretty nice for something I wasn't expecting. Gamepad controls for some games would be nice but I don't see how it would be possible.

This is 100% completely a service issue. Consumer's should demand service that is above and beyond. If this feature works as-is for you, that's great. But the service is lacking. Positing technical reasons for why it wasn't done isn't a justification for it being subpar service. It's Nintendo's job to figure out how to do shit and deliver quality services and features... and then they wonder why Wii U sales are down.

If Nintendo not fully supporting backwards compatibility (something the competition has completely abandoned) though the screen built to their controller (something the competition doesn't offer) is subpar then what the fuck is par?

 

[w1gglyjones]

If you want to argue that it's possible, then do so.

Don't waffle on your own argument and say that even though it's impossible, that's no excuse.

The argument is that Nintendo is delivering subpar features.

There is currently no fast, easy, efficient way to text-message friends on Wii U. There are no folders. There is no Gamepad signal extender. They release an update that has *some* utility 10 months after launch but haven't managed to make it reach its full potential.

The technical feasibility of these things belies the fact that these things are services and features people find useful and valuable... and their sales aren't anything great. I'm not talking hardware power here. They designed the thing but it still can't seemingly do things that readily apparent to the consumer as being useful.

You want to push this idea that adding CCP controls to the gamepad is impossibly messy for Nintendo at the same time Iwata gives interviews about the limits of human belief and action and how "anything is possible" if humans set their mind to it, citing runners breaking the 4 minute mile. Give me a break, you can't even tout the company line.

With this statement I didn't make any sort of claim as to whether it is possible or not. I highlighted the ridiculousness of his statement, which was that even if it is impossible, that is no excuse.

He says it right there. "Technical reasons are no justification for poor service." Apply this globally to any given device and you can see why it's total BS.

Yes, and as you said, technical reasons for poor features are no excuse.

If something is entirely impossible given the current limitations of technology, that's no excuse for the lack of it. This is your statement, not mine.

You are taking snippets of my post, quoting them out of context and applying them to generalized and absurd scenarios. We're specifically talking about mapping CCP controls to the Gamepad in Wii-mode.

 

[UncleSporky]

The argument is that Nintendo is delivering subpar features.

Yes, and as you said, technical reasons for poor features are no excuse.

If something is entirely impossible given the current limitations of technology, that's no excuse for the lack of it. This is your statement, not mine.

 

[Mael]

The argument is that Nintendo is delivering subpar features.

There is currently no fast, easy, efficient way to text-message friends on Wii U. There are no folders. There is no Gamepad signal extender. They release an update that has *some* utility 10 months after launch but haven't managed to make it reach its full potential.

The technical feasibility of these things belies the fact that these things are services and features people find useful and valuable... and their sales aren't anything great. I'm not talking hardware power here.

This is reasonable.

You want to push this idea that adding CCP controls to the gamepad is impossibly messy for Nintendo at the same time Iwata gives interviews about the limits of human belief and action and how "anything is possible" if humans set their mind to it, citing runners breaking the 4 minute mile. Give me a break, you can't even tout the company line.

This is not even in the same league and quite clearly stupid.

 

[wsippel]

I was basing it off of this:

http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/wireless/2006/0206wireless1.html

Even if the GamePad did support mixed or legacy mode (not all 802.11n adapters do), what would that achieve? Wiimotes connect via Bluetooth, not 802.11b or g. Some games might be able to use a DS as input devices, but that's not an OS feature. It has to be coded in the games itself.

Because there is added security risk by simply writing a driver to interact with hardware that is already enabled and connected to the system.


There is no magic "Wii U shuts down everything Wii U to be a Wii" hardware limitation, just like there wasn't on the Wii. Instead it uses a custom package of drivers and settings that set the limitations (MIOS on Wii, not sure what the Wii U equivalent is)... something Nintendo can easily modifiy themselves.

You can't tell me allowing access to button presses from hardware that is already connected would lead to any more chance of an exploit than anything else.

You should really read a bit about how Wii and Wii U system security and backwards compatibility work. They're not the same - at all. You're basing your demands on completely wrong assumptions.

 

[javac]

The fact that the system doesn't give blowjobs is also a service issue I assume? Yep, really subpar. Who carers that it simply couldn't work, it's Nintendo's damn job to figure something out! No wonder nobody buys the stupid thing!

A light bulb just went off in my head

Spoiler

(I should probably get that checked)

. I think you're on to something here.

 

[Lightning Lord]

I don't see how they could've properly implemented Wiimote controller mapping to the Gamepad. This is still a cool feature for those who don't have the TV available all the time.

Which is probably the only real reason why anyone would use this feature, and off-tv play's original purpose to begin with: To be able to play on the Wii U while the TV is being used by someone else.

 

[jts]

How can a less than 100% stellar but still very serviceable backwards compatibility feature can be subpar, when nowadays the par is no BC at all..?

 

[UncleSporky]

You are taking snippets of my post, quoting them out of context and applying them to generalized and absurd scenarios. We're specifically talking about mapping CCP controls to the Gamepad in Wii-mode.

Oh yeah? So you're saying I'm misrepresenting you?

In other words, you're saying that if it turns out it is actually impossible to accomplish something given the way the tech is set up, that's a reasonable excuse for lacking the feature?

 

[joffocakes]

You mean the fee that lets them remap controls, gives them a nice interface around it including save states, and lets them play without needing to boot into a legacy mode? The one that has a lot of benefits besides using the pad to play your games? That fee?

Yeah, that's the one!

I really would like them to hurry up with the N64 games on Wii U; the analogue stick on the gamepad would be much better for F Zero X than the awkward Wii Classic Controller one.

 

[w1gglyjones]

Oh yeah? So you're saying I'm misrepresenting you?

In other words, you're saying that if it turns out it is actually impossible to accomplish something given the way the tech is set up, that's a reasonable excuse for lacking the feature?

You are being obtuse. If there is actually a technical barrier that makes it *impossible* to map CCP controls to the gamepad in Wii mode, then you don't need an excuse for not including such a feature! If it's simply not possible - that doesn't change my level of desire for such a service or feature. But I also wouldn't ask for it if I knew it wasn't possible.

 

[Morfeo]

The megatons come early today Awesome news!

 

[UncleSporky]

You are being obtuse. If there is actually a technical barrier that makes it *impossible* to map CCP controls to the gamepad in Wii mode, then you don't need an excuse for not including such a feature!

Well alright, then we're getting somewhere.

There's no excuse for poor service, but we've already identified that this may not be a service issue.

It might be like the PS4's complete lack of BC - functionality that is unfortunately not possible given what was included with the console.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Even if the GamePad did support mixed or legacy mode (not all 802.11n adapters do), what would that achieve? Wiimotes connect via Bluetooth, not 802.11b or g. Some games might be able to use a DS as input devices, but that's not an OS feature. It has to be coded in the games itself.

Fair enough, thanks for the explanation. I was assuming that since Wii could upload data to DS (via the Nintendo channel) that this communication was an OS level feature in both directions, and that only a few games (like Pokemon Battle Revolution) made use of it..

But even then Nintendo would have to write some new API to automatically translate I/O calls to Bluetooth into I/O calls to Wifi on an OS level, which is probably no small amount of work, considering they'd be developing a tool for a dead OS.


edit: So basically this could have been avoided by including a bluetooth chip in the gamepad? That kinda sucks...

 

[cyberheater]

No. I was talking about the B button method. It gives you an error message if your TV isn't turned on, everytime.



I guess that's at least a good solution if you want to use it without your TV for an extended time like for the guy above who wanted to take his WiiU to the hospital.

It works if you do this.

I read somwhere that you have to set the output on something other than HDMI - then you don't need the TV.

It's still a stupid workaround.

 

[w1gglyjones]

Well alright, then we're getting somewhere.

There's no excuse for poor service, but we've already identified that this may not be a service issue.

It might be like the PS4's complete lack of BC - functionality that is unfortunately not possible given what was included with the console.

The only difference between what I'm saying and what you are saying is that you insist there is some issue preventing the implementation, and I'm saying that Nintendo could probably work around it if they wanted.

If it's 100% not possible, I'd be the first one to admit, accept and move on.

 

[Mael]

Well alright, then we're getting somewhere.

There's no excuse for poor service, but we've already identified that this may not be a service issue.

It might be like the PS4's complete lack of BC - functionality that is unfortunately not possible given what was included with the console.

Considering that apparently for ps2 games they're reselling on ps3 they're using an emulator that they could sell/give to provide emulation on stock ps3s....
I wouldn't be so sure BC isn't possible on ps4.

 

[UncleSporky]

The only difference between what I'm saying and what you are saying is that you insist there is some issue preventing the implementation, and I'm saying that Nintendo could probably work around it if they wanted.

If it's 100% not possible, I'd be the first one to admit, accept and move on.

The other thing I believe is that a company should seriously value consistency in their implementation of these sorts of features, and Nintendo is definitely a company that values consistency.

They do things like re-rating VC games through the ESRB and fully testing every VC game to make sure it works, even if it's basically a ROM dump that would certainly work with no problems.

The only reason we got off-TV play for Wii games is because the pad is being treated as a TV, and no real testing on a per-game basis is required, no pad control compatibility list is required, etc.

I think it's acceptable for them to forego a feature that might be technically possible, if implementing it meant that a number of legacy games would give confusing messages about disconnecting a CC that isn't there (since you're using a pad) or pointing a remote at the screen (that isn't there since you're using a pad). If people have to re-sync controllers every time they boot up a game because the pad is default controller 1 but the menu needs a remote, that is unacceptable.

Consistency is key, even if that consistency is cumbersome. At least when the game mentions the Wii remote, you are sure to have one connected.

 

[Glass Joe]

So, an interesting point is that in Wii mode, if you press anything on the Gamepad, it will give a message telling you to use a Wii Remote. That technically means that it's understanding that inputs ARE being pressed. Perhaps functionality can be added on a game by game basis, either through the U firmware itself or individual title patches? Or if maybe we'll start seeing Wii games in the eShop with updated controller options.

I'll be curious to see if they mention any future goals in the Nintendo Direct today. Playing Galaxy 1 & 2 on the Gamepad only and using the touchscreen or right analog as a pointer replacement would be great.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Skyward Sword looks great on the game pad. I would never play a Wii game like this but it's pretty nice for something I wasn't expecting. Gamepad controls for some games would be nice but I don't see how it would be possible.



If Nintendo not fully supporting backwards compatibility (something the competition has completely abandoned) though the screen built to their controller (something the competition doesn't offer) is subpar then what the fuck is par?

How can a less than 100% stellar but still very serviceable backwards compatibility feature can be subpar, when nowadays the par is no BC at all..?

THESE! seriously we've been given a free feature nobody expected, that is not the new industry norm and people can't accept it and want it to be better? no they get out the pitch forks and call nintendo out on the subpar service on thsi unexpected feature.
nobody official has said these features can't be added at a later date, hell they may have just released this feature now to gauge reaction to see if its worth diverting resources to it!

I'll muse on this later while i watch breaking bad and play mario galaxy via a gamepad, wiimote/nunchuck and not really giving a fuck

 

[w1gglyjones]

The other thing I believe is that a company should seriously value consistency in their implementation of these sorts of features, and Nintendo is definitely a company that values consistency.

They do things like re-rating VC games through the ESRB and fully testing every VC game to make sure it works, even if it's basically a ROM dump that would certainly work with no problems.

The only reason we got off-TV play for Wii games is because the pad is being treated as a TV, and no real testing on a per-game basis is required, no pad control compatibility list is required, etc.

I think it's acceptable for them to forego a feature that might be technically possible, if implementing it meant that a number of legacy games would give confusing messages about disconnecting a CC that isn't there (since you're using a pad) or pointing a remote at the screen (that isn't there since you're using a pad). If people have to re-sync controllers every time they boot up a game because the pad is default controller 1 but the menu needs a remote, that is unacceptable.

Consistency is key, even if that consistency is cumbersome. At least when the game mentions the Wii remote, you are sure to have one connected.

I don't doubt that they have their way of doing things, and I can appreciate that their quality control is impeccable. However, the Wii U lacks and has lacked many things since launch. Their communication about these things is terrible. In 10 months time they implemented this wii mode gamepad off-tv mode, but haven't yet added folders to the main Wii U OS, nor added an efficient text ability to communicate with your friends through the main Wii U OS. I think you can see how their priorities are aligned with some of their audience but not others. This current feature update is one such example when, I personally see the Wii U as needing other things.

 

[Interceptor]

Damn. I forgot the Wii U Gamepad doesn´t support Bluetooth... Would have been ideal to just patch the pad to emulate a WiiMote + classic controller. Considering the Wii Sandbox mode i don´t see an option to transfer the actual controls to the gamepad without breaking the security. Maybe it´s possible to enable some kind of low level translation to transfer bluetooth information to 802.11whatever. But i really doubt it.

 

[Porcile]

It's a shame Goldeneye isn't on VC. I could relive the days of covering up half the screen with this feature.

 

[w1gglyjones]

So, an interesting point is that in Wii mode, if you press anything on the Gamepad, it will give a message telling you to use a Wii Remote. That technically means that it's understanding that inputs ARE being pressed.

It could be a message coming directly from the gamepad itself, just like how the TV remote works.

 

[Mael]

So, an interesting point is that in Wii mode, if you press anything on the Gamepad, it will give a message telling you to use a Wii Remote. That technically means that it's understanding that inputs ARE being pressed. Perhaps functionality can be added on a game by game basis, either through the U firmware itself or individual title patches? Or if maybe we'll start seeing Wii games in the eShop with updated controller options.

I'll be curious to see if they mention any future goals in the Nintendo Direct today. Playing Galaxy 1 & 2 on the Gamepad only and using the touchscreen or right analog as a pointer replacement would be great.

It could be an update to the Gamepad software, after all there's minimal software in the pad to launch the TV remote app.
It would be trivial to add another app on the pad to reac this way when WiiU is in Wii mode.

edit : DAMN YOU w1gglyjones!

 

[UncleSporky]

So, an interesting point is that in Wii mode, if you press anything on the Gamepad, it will give a message telling you to use a Wii Remote. That technically means that it's understanding that inputs ARE being pressed.

This doesn't mean that the virtual Wii understands that inputs are being pressed, it means that the Wii U wrapped around it is still talking to the pad and can modify the video output etc.

You can hit the menu button on your TV remote and overlay a menu on top of the video being displayed, but that doesn't mean the device sending video to the TV can communicate with the remote. It's not a perfect example, but you can think about it like that. After all, the pad is simply being used as a mini-TV.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I wish this supported Gamepad controls, but it's hard to get up in arms about a thing I didn't know was happening that they never announced.

Presumably it's only there because they were working on something else and this happened to coincide.

 

[Fularu]

The only difference between what I'm saying and what you are saying is that you insist there is some issue preventing the implementation, and I'm saying that Nintendo could probably work around it if they wanted.

If it's 100% not possible, I'd be the first one to admit, accept and move on.

Then it's time to move on. For the Wii, the Gamepad doesn't exist, it doesn't know what it is and can't interact with it. The update merely makes the GamePad a TV, that's it, because ultimately, you cannot "remap" as you said something which the Wii isn't expecting to recieve.

Just like you couldn't use Wiimotes/CC/CCpro with GC games in Gamecube mode and had to use a GC controller.

 

[something fishy]

I can't see myself ever trying to prop up the screen on my lap whilst trying to play with another controller.

seems a bit of a half assed effort really.

if they could get it controlling as well then it'd be good.

 

[Glass Joe]

It could be a message coming directly from the gamepad itself, just like how the TV remote works.

Damn, you're likely right. Just tried out some Mario 3 on Wii VC, it looks nice on the gamepad but it's weird how you're forced to play with the remote. Anyway, good observation (unfortunately!).

 

[Saint Gregory]

It could be an update to the Gamepad software, after all there's minimal software in the pad to launch the TV remote app.
It would be trivial to add another app on the pad to reac this way when WiiU is in Wii mode.

edit : DAMN YOU w1gglyjones!

Does the message show up only on the gamepad or does it appear on the TV as well?

 

[New002]

Played some Tataunoko vs Capcom on the gamepad yesterday. It's a step in the right direction. I hope the next step is gamepad support.

 

[Fularu]

I can't see myself ever trying to prop up the screen on my lap whilst trying to play with another controller.

seems a bit of a half assed effort really.

if they could get it controlling as well then it'd be good.

The Gamepad stand is prety usefull for that.

While the GF is watching her sitcoms and dramas, I can play some Wii/VC games through my Gamepad. While not a "dealchanger", it's still very nice and usefull.

 

[MIlky1985]

It could be a message coming directly from the gamepad itself, just like how the TV remote works.

I'll try when I get home but should be an easyish way to tell, play a game and press the button, see if it looks like its overlayed on top.

If it is, its the gamepad itself saying that, the "Wii" software has no clue that anything has happened. If the Wii game is being paused with other menus appearing then signals are being sent through to Wii Mode.

nor added an efficient text ability to communicate with your friends through the main Wii U OS.

Miiverse? Didn't one of the updates basically turn it into twitter for Nintendo users only.

The only difference between what I'm saying and what you are saying is that you insist there is some issue preventing the implementation, and I'm saying that Nintendo could probably work around it if they wanted.

If it's 100% not possible, I'd be the first one to admit, accept and move on.

There is an issue, they want to keep the WiiU OS secure, which means as little communication between the Wii and the rest of the console as possible. "Homebrew" being so widespread on the Wii means people will be looking at that as the attack vector to get into the WiiU to hack it open.

Yes they probably could work around it if they wanted, but it would risk opening a door to something they don't want, to add a single feature that would only work in some games to something that is already a nice little extra to something that we didn't have before. Nintendo have already done something that none of the other console makers have bothered to do.

 

[zephervack]

Useless without the controller, it could be done if they wanted to put some effort, look up the nVidia shield, you can stream wii games from your computer using Dolphin and play all the games with the same controller

 

[MicroByter]

But i really hope they patch, that you can't activate Wii-Mode without a TV. I have to stay in a hospital for some days and thought about bringing my Wii U along ... i could finish Xenogears in that time. =)

I agree with this, pretty big oversight to not be able to just launch with both screens enabled by default. At least offer the option in the settings menu so that by default, both screens are enabled so I don't have to flip over to the Wii U input and launch the Wii menu.

 

[KingSnake]

Useless without the controller, it could be done if they wanted to put some effort, look up the nVidia shield, you can stream wii games from your computer using Dolphin and play all the games with the same controller

You can stream Wii U game to Wii U gamepad and play all the games with the same controller. In your analogy, your computer boots up in a Windows 95 in safe mode and has no idea what's nVidia shield.

 

[Glass Joe]

I'll try when I get home but should be an easyish way to tell, play a game and press the button, see if it looks like its overlayed on top.

If it is, its the gamepad itself saying that, the "Wii" software has no clue that anything has happened. If the Wii game is being paused with other menus appearing then signals are being sent through to Wii Mode.

I tried it, the overlay appears on the gamepad only and not the tv, sorry to say.

 

[Vagabundo]

Wow. Nice I expected this at release due to the hardware.

Nice little feature. A little awkward to use, but maybe Gamepad controls will be unlocked in a future update.

 

[walking fiend]

Nintendo announces a new feature that no one expected neither they promised, and people complain. Reading some threads have become really boring.

 

[Mael]

Does the message show up only on the gamepad or does it appear on the TV as well?

I tried it, the overlay appears on the gamepad only and not the tv, sorry to say.

I guess that answers it.
It's software embedded in the pad, kinda like there was some limited data that could be taken inside wiimotes.

 

[jimi_dini]

You want to push this idea that adding CCP controls to the gamepad is impossibly messy for Nintendo

It is complicated. If you knew about the inner workings, you would probably understand.

It's probably doable, but it's not easy in any shape or form. And on top of that - Nintendo doesn't want crappy compatibility. If Nintendo was Microsoft, they would have used software compatibility (or even no backward compatibility at all - see Xbone) and maybe hacked that stuff in the most horrible way possible. 50, 100 or 200 games don't work correctly or at all? Doesn't matter. But it does matter to Nintendo and I agree with that attitude.

Even if it was easy to implement (and it isn't), they would still have to check the whole Wii library for any issues.

In any case - I would have never thought that they implemented this feature at all at this time. Wii U pad support for Wii games? Why should they even do that. Sony + Microsoft said, that backward compatibility wasn't important. And Nintendo even spent money on further development on this feature - although there is no real advantage for them personally. I'm quite impressed, even if they never released another update for classic controller emulation via Wii U pad.

 

[Fularu]

I guess that answers it.
It's software embedded in the pad, kinda like there was some limited data that could be taken inside wiimotes.

Eh, this has been known since the start. There's been one or two Gamepad updates already (and they're even region locked!)