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[LordOfChaos]

This whole chat reflects a lot of what I've felt about modern OS's on modern hardware for a while now. Think about how much faster we've gotten over the last 15 years, but do basic tasks actually feel faster? Right clicking a desktop and taking a fraction of a second, or taking 1.5 seconds just to open 'my computer', on a fast NVMe drive and all the processor cores a consumer OS should dream of, it just has a feeling of not being a hardware thing at all and the OS just not doing all it could to truly feel fast on fast modern hardware. Especially where a local operation is held up for a network operation like they messed up start menu search with and onedrive crap.

After using a debloat tool some of the network bits do feel better, but I still don't really feel modern fat operating systems are making our hardware feel as fast as it really should feel, and I would like a "Snow Leopard" year across all operating systems by all major companies including Apple and Google, although now I'm sure the next few years will be adding AI stuff. A full year of tuning performance, refining, removing, bug fixes, and just making it work as well as possible and take advantage of all the silicon to feel fast before moving on




This is a good read too:

Computer latency: 1977-2017

Almost everything on computers is perceptually slower than it was in 1983 (2017) | Hacker News

news.ycombinator.com

 

[Skifi28]

And they're killing 10 trying to get people to upgrade, assuming they even can without also upgrading their hardware. Fun times ahead.

Some of the issues mentioned in the video are both annoying and baffling. Having to wait for my HDD to wake up in order to consume content on my NVME or web drives me crazy on a daily basis.

 

[Cert.in.Death]

Our demands: "Security, speed, & privacy."

Their response: "Pick 2."

 

[nikos]

Been running it since preview builds and haven't had a single issue. I do a good amount of optimization but nothing too crazy.

 

[Unknown?]

Ditched Windows about 4 years ago, best decision I made tech wise.

 

[nkarafo]

I'll stick to Windows 10 until apps and games stop supporting it. So that's what, 5 more years? I don't care about Microsoft supporting it.

I did the same with Windows 98SE and skipped Millennium and the early days of Windows XP.

Did the same with Windows XP and skipped Vista and the early days of Windows 7.

Did the same with Windows 7 and skipped Windows 8 and the early days of Windows 10.

I never had to beta test their shit. Always upgraded to good, stable stuff. So i'll do the same and upgrade midway through Windows 12. Because sticking with what works has worked great for me for decades.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

Ditched Windows about 4 years ago, best decision I made tech wise.

Linux? Mac?

I'm sure I would have bailed long ago if not for gaming. I wasn't in love with Linux desktops last time I tried them, but that was probably a solid decade ago at this point.

 

[Unknown?]

Linux? Mac?

I'm sure I would have bailed long ago if not for gaming. I wasn't in love with Linux desktops last time I tried them, but that was probably a solid decade ago at this point.

Linux. Windows last good release was 7 IMO.

 

[dorkimoe]

One drive is a nightmare.

 

[Crayon]

Linux? Mac?

I'm sure I would have bailed long ago if not for gaming. I wasn't in love with Linux desktops last time I tried them, but that was probably a solid decade ago at this point.

I was kind of in that boat. I switched myself about a decade ago, but a decade before that the s*** wasn't ready for me. As in, it took a level of expertise that I didn't really have. But 10 years ago, it was just barely easy enough for me to deal with. Still a bit of a pain and required learning but I was pretty determined.

Now it's hella nice. Someone's always going to chime in with some obscure hardware that doesn't work on Linux, but for most of us it's just games, browser, office, file management, some light editing maybe. All of that is easy now.

 

[Syphon Filter]

I loved windows a lot but i switched to linux since I feel windows hasn't been good since after windows 7.

 

[diffusionx]

I use OneDrive for work and it’s amazing how bad it feels. Like, windows 95 on my 166mhz pentium with 16 megs of ram twenty years ago felt better. If this is just a reality of the network setup, get rid of the network setup and do something else. It’s simply awful.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

i dunno why Xbox people have this pipe dream of Valve and MS teaming up against Playstation or using steam as Xbox adjacent in the war against PS.

Windows is too bloated, has other priorities and people dislike it overall.

I don't think Gabe has any intention to throw a bone to MS if they decide to make their own "console". with the Steam OS, Valve basically owns the PC handheld market.

 

[LavitzSlambert]

Software is the limiting factor here, always has been. It doesn't help that Microsoft has outsourced all of its testing to its userbase. Dunno about you guys, but I have a Mac for anything mission critical, and am comfortable with Linux for most other things. If gaming is buggy on 11 I no longer have a reason to run Windows.

 

[Codeblew]

Linux FTW. If you need windows for specific apps, run it in a VM: (QEMU/KVM) For games, Steam+Proton; Not all games work but most of the ones I care about do. I also play on my PS5 a lot so there is that.

Linux? Mac?

I'm sure I would have bailed long ago if not for gaming. I wasn't in love with Linux desktops last time I tried them, but that was probably a solid decade ago at this point.

I would recommend Ubuntu just because it is the most popular and probably easiest to get started with. After you are comfortable with that, there are a few good distros to try out. Most you can try out with a VM or a live USB boot drive.

 

[Skifi28]

I'll stick to Windows 10 until apps and games stop supporting it. So that's what, 5 more years? I don't care about Microsoft supporting it.

5 years without security updates is crazy. Good luck I guess, you'll be needing it.

 

[Unknown?]

Linux FTW. If you need windows for specific apps, run it in a VM: (QEMU/KVM) For games, Steam+Proton; Not all games work but most of the ones I care about do. I also play on my PS5 a lot so there is that.


I would recommend Ubuntu just because it is the most popular and probably easiest to get started with. After you are comfortable with that, there are a few good distros to try out. Most you can try out with a VM or a live USB boot drive.

I use Mint but both are easy.

Also use Whonix for privacy.

 

[Codeblew]

I use Mint but both are easy.

Also use Whonix for privacy.

Yeah, I can vouch for Mint too. Might actually be a better choice for people wanting a more windows (older windows, not win 10/11) like UI. It is based off of Ubuntu/Debian if I remember correctly.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

Linux? Mac?

I'm sure I would have bailed long ago if not for gaming. I wasn't in love with Linux desktops last time I tried them, but that was probably a solid decade ago at this point.

Honestly if I didn't start a PC build this year, I would have picked up that $500 Mac Mini M4 at Costco and just use that as my daily driver.

Instead, I dual boot Linux and Windows; Linux is great with the right desktop environment (Cinnamon or KDE), but you still have to be comfortable with the terminal for some intermediate tasks.

Alternately, a Linux distro that is immutable like Fedora Atomic, Bazzite, or eventually Steam OS is a great choice if you don't need access to every piece of Linux software out there.

 

[El Muerto]

I jumped to Win11 on my gaming rig this year and it's not all that bad. Definitely feels more snappier compared to win10. HDR works a lot better, and auto hdr is a nice feature. Still use Manjaro on my laptops tho. I think we all feel hesitant about upgrading windows but this isnt a bad OS upgrade like back in the day when you upgraded to Vista or Win8.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Windows is a piece of shit but I've been using 11 for 2 years now on all my machines and it works fine for me

I pretty much only use Windows as a launcher for games though, most of my daily non-gaming computer use is on my Macbook Pro

 

[Shubh_C63]

Microsoft is here to suck consumers dry, not provide best solution.
With that motto I NEVER upgrade till its broken.

Can people really give me examples of how bad things could be Security wise for not upgrading by 5 more years ?
Like seriously, what would infect my PC and for what. I have Limited mail sources, limited websites I visit.

If wasn't for Limewire even my WinXP was fine.

 

[Codeblew]

Can people really give me examples of how bad things could be Security wise for not upgrading by 5 more years ?
Like seriously, what would infect my PC and for what. I have Limited mail sources, limited websites I visit.\

If they are not updating your OS anymore with security updates, that could go really bad for you. There could be exploits found that could give full control of your computer to a bad actor. They might even run a CP site from your computer without you knowing it until the feds knock down your door. Hell, that could even happen on an updated OS but probably 100+x less likely.

 

[V1LÆM]

Have had no issues with 11 for a long time. In fact was only the first year. Could never go back to 10. Not that you should because it’ll be dead soon lol.

It’s the same old boring story…a new OS comes out and everyone and their cat hates on it. Eventually they fall in love with it and repeat. I remember everyone hated 10. Once people are forced to actually use it then they will realise it’s not that bad after all.

 

[Shubh_C63]

If they are not updating your OS anymore with security updates, that could go really bad for you. There could be exploits found that could give full control of your computer to a bad actor. They might even run a CP site from your computer without you knowing it until the feds knock down your door. Hell, that could even happen on an updated OS but probably 100+x less likely.

Do we have these documented cases covered by news or sorts? I wanna watch them
Not gonna lie, seems unlikely.

 

[Soodanim]

Microsoft is here to suck consumers dry, not provide best solution.
With that motto I NEVER upgrade till its broken.

Can people really give me examples of how bad things could be Security wise for not upgrading by 5 more years ?
Like seriously, what would infect my PC and for what. I have Limited mail sources, limited websites I visit.

If wasn't for Limewire even my WinXP was fine.

i used to think the same.

I don’t have it to hand, but a few months ago I saw a YouTube video of someone installing XP and connecting it to the internet. Nothing else, just checking task manager to get a baseline before idling. When he comes back later you see all sorts of things running. It was an eye opener.

I know that’s XP and things have changed since then, but things have changed because things have changed. It’s not about just avoiding running boobs.jpg.exe, the user doesn’t need to have any involvement at all. Bots constantly scan looking for unpatched weaknesses to exploit.

 

[Erebus]

I've said this a million times in threads like this but I don't get what's so bad with Win 11 compared to 10.

 

[kevboard]

I've said this a million times in threads like this but I don't get what's so bad with Win 11 compared to 10.

the only issue I have is that I can't put my task bar on the top of the screen... everything else seems to be a cosmetic change for the most part lol.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

Our demands: "Security, speed, & privacy."

Their response: "Pick 2."

With Microsoft you only get one. And it's not security or privacy.

 

[Zathalus]

Don’t worry, Gabe is on it.

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

I'm wish they did a barebones lite version for gaming only.

 

[Magister]

Windows 11 sucks. I installed it once and my screen started turning black randomly. Other problems included Windows file explorer opening randomly. Fix your bugs Microsoft. That is the reason I switched back to 10. Also, fuck your malware.

But Windows 10 will die soon. And using outdated OS is too risky due to hackers. So, they will force me to switch, but I will keep using 10 as long as I could.

 

[Trilobit]

After using a debloat tool some of the network bits do feel better, but I still don't really feel modern fat operating systems are making our hardware feel as fast as it really should feel, and I would like a "Snow Leopard" year across all operating systems by all major companies including Apple and Google, although now I'm sure the next few years will be adding AI stuff. A full year of tuning performance, refining, removing, bug fixes, and just making it work as well as possible and take advantage of all the silicon to feel fast before moving on

Madres mios! As I was reading the beginning of your post my mind wandered to when I first got a Macbook and it came with Snow Leopard and how deliciously fast and amazing that OS was. I am now on Windows 11 and despite having good specs on my laptop nothing feels as fluid and quick as it did back then. Nothing feels optimized and the design choices they've made are real head-scratchers. If I wasn't able to customize the UI with third-party tools I'd be really bummed out.

 

[nkarafo]

If they are not updating your OS anymore with security updates, that could go really bad for you. There could be exploits found that could give full control of your computer to a bad actor. They might even run a CP site from your computer without you knowing it until the feds knock down your door. Hell, that could even happen on an updated OS but probably 100+x less likely.

How the hell can someone use your computer like that without you noticing? You never use task manager or something? You never check what's running in the background? How about performance metrics? How can you not notice all the extra network/CPU/RAM activity, or other use of resources?

I get it, security is important and having an up-to-date OS helps. It's not a bad advice. But you don't have to pitch it with such an over the top fearmongering scenario that involves the worst kind of hacking on the worst kind of user. And if you are such a user, no amount of security updates will save you, your computer is already filled with all kinds of bloat/malware, etc. I have seen this way too many times on the most up-to date systems. It's a user issue.

5 years without security updates is crazy. Good luck I guess, you'll be needing it.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a bad advice. But thankfully not everyone has to rely 100% on the OS babysitting them. Some users can handle a few things on their own.

I mean, it's not like updates can some times make things worse but what do i know, let's just rely on Microsoft 100% because they are so reliable and trustworthy.

Do we have these documented cases covered by news or sorts? I wanna watch them
Not gonna lie, seems unlikely.

Look, i don't know you so i would always recommend updating your OS. It's the safe advice to give. Kinda like the "don't do this at home" or a "don't drink this" sticker on a radioactive waste barrel.

Otherwise, if you have some level of awareness and sense, you are a bit careful, don't download every random .exe file, don't click on everything in your path, have some security plugins on your browser, keep backups of your files offline, etc, you will probably be fine.

If you don't check most of these boxes you will most likely get screwed either way, updates or not.

Personally, i use computers since 1999. The only time i almost got in trouble because of a scammer/hacker it was my fault and stupidity, not the OS, it didn't even happen on my computer, that was my (up-to-date) phone.

 

[b0uncyfr0]

What issues?

For gaming, its better than 10. pPerformance numbers arent everything. AutoHDR is already a win.

 

[Axelon]

I just use Windows for gaming+demanding tasks and my M1 MacBook Air for everything else. (Also got a Steam Deck for gaming+Linux, but I don't use it day to day)

To me Mac OS just feels much better to use for more day to day usage. I mean even the settings on Mac OS is 100x better than what Windows has. Simple and precise on finding what I need.

Infact I'll go into more details on settings on Windows. It's so jumbled up it's crazy. Half the stuff you need isn't even in the normal settings view. It's buried under stuff that goes back to windows xp style UI that has the useful stuff.

To setup surround for my speakers I had to bring up the old ass volume mixer. Like why? Settings had my speakers setup as stereo and wouldn't give me *any* options to choose otherwise. But the good ol' volume mixer listed under Advanced,then More Sound Settings had everything I needed for 5.1. Volume mixer should've been added properly in the UI of the new settings to have everything I need, instead of half assing it like they always seem to do when adding new things.

This type of thing is a common issue with multiple things throughout Windows too.

 

[NeverYouMind]

I've said this a million times in threads like this but I don't get what's so bad with Win 11 compared to 10.

It really screws up legacy drivers and in case of Bluetooth ones it constantly overwrites them because it thinks it knows better. Even if you manually disable it from overwriting those, every update that shit resets. Frustrating as hell to say the least.

P.S. I have some minor gaming issues with Windows 10 as well (that 11 inherits). Mainly that Control Flow Guard (exploit protection) disabling and high program priority have to be manually set to get smooth performance. It is weird because in prior Windows versions programs would be given priority by default and run smoothly if hardware was up to scratch.

 

[Melon Husk]

the only issue I have is that I can't put my task bar on the top of the screen... everything else seems to be a cosmetic change for the most part lol.

Yes you can

Windhawk

The customization marketplace for Windows and programs. Customize your programs with available code snippets or create your own customizations.

windhawk.net

 

[winjer]

In the days of Windows 7 and prior, if I wanted to reinstall Windows, it was a quick and easy process.
Just a normal installation, then install drivers and programs. Maybe a tweak here or there for the UI and some services.
But with Windows 11, there is so much crap, that cleaning up all the bloatware and disabling the spyware takes much longer.
Fortunately, there are tools like the Chris Titus Windows debloater. To make things easier and faster.
But even after this, it's still necessary to fix several issues with the UI.
I have been using Windows 11 for a few years, but it's a freacking mess. Windows 10 is just slightly better, as it still has a ton of bloat and spyware.
And then there are the bugs. So many bugs. Even the updates that are meant to fix previous bugs, have new bugs.

I also have to work with Team, Office 365 and OneDrive, but this is a nightmare.
The UI on these programs are terrible. And the performance is dreadful. It's so slow and if there is any thing with the network connection, it starts to bug out.
It's hard to understand how a major company can make software that is objectively so bad. Worst yet, is why there are companies paying for this crap and forcing workers to use it and lose productivity.

 

[T-Cake]

SteamOS needs to come to PCs. I only need a dedicated gaming OS with a web browser.

 

[Erebus]

SteamOS needs to come to PCs. I only need a dedicated gaming OS with a web browser.

This.

I'm only using my desktop PC for gaming either way.

 

[keefged4]

I'm using windows 11 with a de-bloat and its been fine tbh, using RTX hdr with most games and have had zero issues, however, once Steam OS is fully out and starts supporting RTX Hdr I'm jumping ship no question.

 

[rodrigolfp]

None here.

 

[BlackTron]

This is why I actually STILL use 7 whenever I need to do a lot of finicky clicky stuff.

I switch the monitor to my 11 machine for gaming, incompatible software or just want the higher perf (like decompressing large archives faster).

I find myself getting lopsided and paying attention in 11 on some simple task which in 7 just happens on autopilot.

I get that it's not updated or secure, but I compartmentalize all my computing in such a way I don't really care.

 

[rodrigolfp]

I'm wish they did a barebones lite version for gaming only.

GitHub - GamerROMInc/Windows-11-Lite: Return of Windows 11 Lite

Return of Windows 11 Lite. Contribute to GamerROMInc/Windows-11-Lite development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

 

[Magister]

How can I switch to Linux if it has no Office or my work requires mandatory software that does not even work well in VM?

I tried Linux Mint on my old laptop and I liked it, but boot times were ridiculous.

I really hate that Office compatability sucks on Linux even while using alternative software, otherwise I would switch immediately.

Sorry for off-topic, but since some of you ditched Windows, it is interesting for me to know how you deal with work issues unless you don't have a job that requires a computer.

 

[CartesianMan]

Windows 11 is OK.

 

[Fake]

Lets be honest: Is trash.

 

[StereoVsn]

How the hell can someone use your computer like that without you noticing? You never use task manager or something? You never check what's running in the background? How about performance metrics? How can you not notice all the extra network/CPU/RAM activity, or other use of resources?

I get it, security is important and having an up-to-date OS helps. It's not a bad advice. But you don't have to pitch it with such an over the top fearmongering scenario that involves the worst kind of hacking on the worst kind of user. And if you are such a user, no amount of security updates will save you, your computer is already filled with all kinds of bloat/malware, etc. I have seen this way too many times on the most up-to date systems. It's a user issue.



Don't get me wrong, this isn't a bad advice. But thankfully not everyone has to rely 100% on the OS babysitting them. Some users can handle a few things on their own.

I mean, it's not like updates can some times make things worse but what do i know, let's just rely on Microsoft 100% because they are so reliable and trustworthy.



Look, i don't know you so i would always recommend updating your OS. It's the safe advice to give. Kinda like the "don't do this at home" or a "don't drink this" sticker on a radioactive waste barrel.

Otherwise, if you have some level of awareness and sense, you are a bit careful, don't download every random .exe file, don't click on everything in your path, have some security plugins on your browser, keep backups of your files offline, etc, you will probably be fine.

If you don't check most of these boxes you will most likely get screwed either way, updates or not.

Personally, i use computers since 1999. The only time i almost got in trouble because of a scammer/hacker it was my fault and stupidity, not the OS, it didn't even happen on my computer, that was my (up-to-date) phone.

There are exploits that can root your system potentially. Newer malware won’t be easily detectable with above methods.

Things like using your system for mining crypto or say being an onion node are straightforward to detect, but installing a keylogger or getting your bank data out is going to be much harder to see.

In general it’s a terrible idea to run unsupported system like that. Better to install Linux or buy a Mac Mini or something. Or install Win11 and debloat/block telemetry (have to do that potentially after each major yearly update as MS reverts things).

As far as attack vectors that could compromise you, there can be all kinds of crap, too many to list.

Something from exploiting say an unpatched router and jumping to your network (don’t run unsupported hardware than can access internet either) to a windows exploit that won’t be patched to many other methods all could occur.

 

[Irobot82]

My home PC is mainly for gaming, so I am praying to our lord and savior Gaben for SteamOS.