Support NeoGAF

[twilo99]

Thanks for cursorily reading the op this time, but even the fastest latency Intel CPUs (which are not the newest ones after the little core regression) are perceptually slower than 4 decade old computers

If you want efficiency the WinNT kernel is not your playground. It's simply grown too complex for that. You will need a stripped down version of some sort.

Also, NT really likes to be plugged into a power socket, which is why it never worked all that well on mobile phones, and it still has "sleep" issues on laptops.

If you want something more efficient, you will need a Unix derived system, out of which I personally think that Apple's effort is by far the best take, especially the iOS branch, but MacOS is also VERY good.

That being said, WinNT is an extremely capable system. It's incredible how many things around you are actually built on Windows NT based systems.


Mark Russinovich is an absolute gem when it comes to all of this so take a listen here:

 

[Dirk Benedict]

Our demands: "Security, speed, & privacy."

Their response: "Pick 2."

Security and Privacy, unfortunately. but having to omit any of those is bad.

 

[Crayon]

Sounds like a real heap of shit. I will continue to not use it.

 

[cyberheater]

My home PC is mainly for gaming, so I am praying to our lord and savior Gaben for SteamOS.

Same

 

[CompleteGlobalSaturation]

Use this script and you will have a debloated Windows 11 install. To top it up, you may use Optimizer and Chris Titus Winutil scripts.

https://schneegans.de/windows/unattend-generator/

I've been using Windows 11 without a single problem and it feels like MS most stable OS so far. Not a single issue with the system with a clean 23H2 install.

I will not upgrade to 24H2 until 12 months late.

 

[CandyCrushSagat]

Switched to Linux when Vista launched. Hard times for a gamer back then but hung in there.
Haven't had a single game not work on Linux for a long time. Even stuff on epic and EA launcher work flawless.

 

[hyperbertha]

5 years without security updates is crazy. Good luck I guess, you'll be needing it.

Private anti virus works better anyway

 

[King Dazzar]

5 years without security updates is crazy. Good luck I guess, you'll be needing it.

But surely if the browser you use is updated? I use script blockers and uBlock Origin which will still be updated. So if I use my PC solely for browsing and emails, what security issues am I going to face staying on 10?

 

[Rivdoric]

They are busy adding as much telemetry as humanly possible, give them some time ffs.

 

[winjer]

Yeah, Windows is bloated, should be faster, and has its problems, but by god, you would swear it's unusable judging by this thread. Some of you guys are blowing the issues out of proportion.

Windows is usable, but there are many caveats.
Bugs and performance are 2 big ones.
Just remember that Win11 had a scheduler bug, for years, that caused AMD and Intel CPUs to lose 20-30% performance.

 

[RCX]

 

[LordOfChaos]

Use this script and you will have a debloated Windows 11 install. To top it up, you may use Optimizer and Chris Titus Winutil scripts.

https://schneegans.de/windows/unattend-generator/

I've been using Windows 11 without a single problem and it feels like MS most stable OS so far. Not a single issue with the system with a clean 23H2 install.

I will not upgrade to 24H2 until 12 months late.

I have used debloat as I mentioned, removing telemetry and all the networking crap from the start menu does help

But fundamentally the point still remains that many basic user actions like a right click context menu or opening my PC or loading a media file from a fast SSD don't feel faster than decades ago because of the many calls they're making. There was another article somewhere about how many system calls a simple click creates on Windows, and it's a lot.

Thinking of it another way - why does it take SteamOS on the Steam Deck emulating Windows through Proton to add a bunch of their own fixes to game frame pacing and such

 

[Jinxed]

Got the big windows update yesterday, now my arctis nova 7 aren't working...

 

[StereoVsn]

Its compatability is a nightmare, double spaces in documents when opened in Word, etc. There is no office suite that has 100% compatability on Linux. They all share similar problems. The closest is WPS, but it is Chinese and has a history of being spyware.

Google’s Work Suite does a decent job, but it’s a)Only Web and b)Paid and business targeted.

There is MS Office on Mac side though which is what I use since I use their 365 Family service.

 

[StereoVsn]

Use this script and you will have a debloated Windows 11 install. To top it up, you may use Optimizer and Chris Titus Winutil scripts.

https://schneegans.de/windows/unattend-generator/

I've been using Windows 11 without a single problem and it feels like MS most stable OS so far. Not a single issue with the system with a clean 23H2 install.

I will not upgrade to 24H2 until 12 months late.

Yep, that’s what I use since plus have some Group Policies on my Pro.

 

[Astray]

3 products have held us back too long:

- Windows.
- Office.
- Adobe Creative Suite.

1 is almost down imo because its only real consumer use is because of 2 and 3, we have 2 more shitty products to go.

The day these 3 products fuck off entirely or get replaced by something better, the entire world will experience mass jubilation the likes of which you've never seen.

 

[Drew1440]

To be honest... last Windows operation system that you could use and feel that the machine was better with it was Windows 7. In terms of 'wow' factor, MS never recovered from Windows 8...

Windows 8 was pretty good, a lot didn't like the start screen but I found it way better to just pin frequently used apps to the taskbar. It was defiantly a lot more optimised than 7 and was a dream to use on an older netbook that used an HDD.
I have wondered with most, if not all computers using SSD's now as the boot drive, is optimisation gonna go out the window with future updates. Some of our Windows 11 laptops with SATA SSD's are a bit sluggish to boot up, and even thing like right clicking for the context menu to appear can take a few seconds. My main hate is those 'Something went wrong' error messages that give little to no information.

 

[PauloRoberto]

Windows 8 was pretty good, a lot didn't like the start screen but I found it way better to just pin frequently used apps to the taskbar. It was defiantly a lot more optimised than 7 and was a dream to use on an older netbook that used an HDD.
I have wondered with most, if not all computers using SSD's now as the boot drive, is optimisation gonna go out the window with future updates. Some of our Windows 11 laptops with SATA SSD's are a bit sluggish to boot up, and even thing like right clicking for the context menu to appear can take a few seconds. My main hate is those 'Something went wrong' error messages that give little to no information.

Let's agree to disagree. Windows 8 is so horrible that even MS pretend this system never existed (serious, you see a lot of Windows 8.1 references, but almost no reference for Windows 8). I was a beta tester for Windows 7 (even got a Windows 7 Ultimate license as a gift and such...) For Windows 8, i saw MS literally ignoring EVERY negative review during beta tester.

 

[Bernoulli]

I use OneDrive for work and it’s amazing how bad it feels. Like, windows 95 on my 166mhz pentium with 16 megs of ram twenty years ago felt better. If this is just a reality of the network setup, get rid of the network setup and do something else. It’s simply awful.

Do you use the program or the website?

 

[diffusionx]

Do you use the program or the website?

it's built into Explorer.

 

[Katatonic]

I've been using 11 and its no more trash than every other iteration of Windows.

 

[diffusionx]

Windows 8 was pretty good, a lot didn't like the start screen but I found it way better to just pin frequently used apps to the taskbar. It was defiantly a lot more optimised than 7 and was a dream to use on an older netbook that used an HDD.
I have wondered with most, if not all computers using SSD's now as the boot drive, is optimisation gonna go out the window with future updates. Some of our Windows 11 laptops with SATA SSD's are a bit sluggish to boot up, and even thing like right clicking for the context menu to appear can take a few seconds. My main hate is those 'Something went wrong' error messages that give little to no information.

I don't get Windows 8 truthers. It was a total disaster, it led to Steve Sinofsky "leaving" Microsoft, it was totally unable to blunt the perceived threat of new computing platforms like phone and tablet, WinRT was a disaster, it spurred Valve into making SteamOS, it basically guaranteed MS as a second-class power in the tech world who wouldn't be part of the game going forward. Any smart upgrades on the tech - and there were some - went out the window with the litany of bad decisions. It basically marked the end of Microsoft's reign as the big dog in technology.

 

[M0G]

Windows gets worse with each release (since 7) and they show a complete disregard to anybody who's used their OS long term. First it was a matter of getting a start menu and shell replacement but now the buggery runs so deep that you need a fucking marketplace of mods to get the OS to work as it should. As others have said WinAero and Windhawk are absolutely essential for rolling back the large list of mistakes that exist in modern Windows shell etc. Unfortunately they don't fix the problems with displays and device drivers etc but it's something.

I have massive problems with running different monitors from my main gpu and integrated graphics. Recently Windows took an update and now it only recognises my integrated graphics at boot and I have to force the card to be recognised in device manager or by rebooting several times. Windows 11 and 10 to a lesser degree has been prone to crap like this or display scaling having an epileptic fit every time an hdmi display in another room goes into standby etc. Any Windows update runs the chance of breaking a windows component or a third party tool etc.

With the forcing people to update because of the TPM 2.0 - Just buy the module and attach it to your motherboard. I was under the impression a lot of systems that didn't have it built in can still have it added for next to nothing.

 

[CompleteGlobalSaturation]

I have used debloat as I mentioned, removing telemetry and all the networking crap from the start menu does help

But fundamentally the point still remains that many basic user actions like a right click context menu or opening my PC or loading a media file from a fast SSD don't feel faster than decades ago because of the many calls they're making. There was another article somewhere about how many system calls a simple click creates on Windows, and it's a lot.

Thinking of it another way - why does it take SteamOS on the Steam Deck emulating Windows through Proton to add a bunch of their own fixes to game frame pacing and such

W11 feels extremely snappy to me; I have no complaints. In the 'accessibility' section I disabled animations which has made a very notable difference in how responsive the OS feels.

 

[PurePlatinum]

Have not owned a Windows PC in many many years. I primarily game on console, but I wish Apple would come up with a in-house version of parallels or crossover that let you play x86 games. They have the hardware now to be able to run these games properly, they just need the support and right now it's just not there.

 

[BoxFresh123]

I've been using 11 and its no more trash than every other iteration of Windows.

 

[nkarafo]

But surely if the browser you use is updated? I use script blockers and uBlock Origin which will still be updated. So if I use my PC solely for browsing and emails, what security issues am I going to face staying on 10?

I would like an answer to that as well. If your browser is secure, shouldn't it protect the rest of the system?

 

[King Dazzar]

I would like an answer to that as well. If your browser is secure, shouldn't it protect the rest of the system?

As long as you're using an up to date firewall you trust and have at least an on demand up to date AV, then I dont foresee any issues at all. I'm happy to be educated on it. But for me, I'm not worried at this time.

YMMV depending on use case I guess. And say a laptop being taken away travelling, is going to differ from a stationary desktop at home. And how many users accessing it... etc. But my above statement still holds, certainly for my use case.

 

[The_Observer]

Why is this general issue in IT that there is this forced updating in everything that results in worse results than before? This is kind of a rhetorical question as I have ideas. Talent going away, DEI-based hiring instead of merit-based and this sounds like a conspiracy theory but I think the industry is benefitting from this (lack of optimization and striving for quality) as this also forces users to upgrade their hardware. So everyone wins in the end, except the end-user who is fucked in every way by corpos.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Have not owned a Windows PC in many many years. I primarily game on console, but I wish Apple would come up with a in-house version of parallels or crossover that let you play x86 games. They have the hardware now to be able to run these games properly, they just need the support and right now it's just not there.

That's the dream, maybe pay Valve a big bag of money for an "It Just Works" Proton like layer fr Mac that makes PC Steam Games mostly just work on Mac, no fiddling about. There's some first steps here with Game Porting Toolkit but it takes more doing than 99% of users will do which doesn't break the nut of Mac gaming.

 

[Meowtor]

Why is this general issue in IT that there is this forced updating in everything that results in worse results than before? This is kind of a rhetorical question as I have ideas. Talent going away, DEI-based hiring instead of merit-based and this sounds like a conspiracy theory but I think the industry is benefitting from this (lack of optimization and striving for quality) as this also forces users to upgrade their hardware. So everyone wins in the end, except the end-user who is fucked in every way by corpos.

Same reason we are seeing failures beyond just IT (planes, cars, etc). Engineering has become a 2nd thought behind profit and numbers. Before, engineers put out their best work and made actual improvements. Now? How can we save money or flash 'new things' to raise our stock prices. Thats it. It's Corpos.

 

[nkarafo]

As long as you're using an up to date firewall you trust and have at least an on demand up to date AV, then I dont foresee any issues at all.

Pretty sure defender gets updated even when you have disabled OS updates. So that's good.

 

[The_Observer]

Same reason we are seeing failures beyond just IT (planes, cars, etc). Engineering has become a 2nd thought behind profit and numbers. Before, engineers put out their best work and made actual improvements. Now? How can we save money or flash 'new things' to raise our stock prices. Thats it. It's Corpos.

Agreed 100%

 

[King Dazzar]

Pretty sure defender gets updated even when you have disabled OS updates. So that's good.

12 is due out next year. And 10 is still getting paid extended support up to 2028, which means I wouldn't expect the likes of Chrome to be pulling support until 2028 earliest. Before doing anything I'd be waiting to see how W12 shapes up hardware requirement wise.

 

[RespawnX]

It's kind of a mixed bag for me. Many of the problems in the video are relatable to me, but they didn’t start with Windows 11. Also in my experience, many application issues tend to originate in front of the screen rather than with the software itself. OneDrive, SharePoint, Windows, Store and so work perfectly fine for me. Perhaps I’ve just adapted well enough. Since I manage multiple multi-user systems here, I’m quite happy with Windows 11. 10 was a bit of a disaster in terms of multi-user support, especially when it came to the Store and licenses.

Even though I haven’t been personally affected so far, it’s undeniable that the system has become very bloated. Windows as a marketing tool is a real thing, and the number of critical update fails in recent years has increased massively—news coverage is quite clear in that regard. But that’s true for software in general; just look at the 24H2 issues. Lot of them can be traced back to manufacturers failing to adapt their software appropriately even after more than half a year.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

havent had any real issues, except recently i got a new audio processor and sometimes i get no sound in games.
disabling all other sound output devices seems to work, but we'll see.

hate the way win11 settings are organized/accessed.
then again, each os after win7 blurs together as a big blob of indistinct crapiness, where things get shinier but less accessible/orderly.

 

[Cattlyst]

Agree that OneDrive is ass but I haven’t noticed any issues personally. W11 has been pretty solid for me so far. Granted I only use it for gaming (steam) and web browsing/emails, so maybe I’m an outlier.

 

[Krathoon]

I have run into problems with GOG games and Win11.

Some games that worked in Win10 no longer work in Win11.

I have to run Win10 in a VM to get it to work. That is crappy.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

I don't get Windows 8 truthers. It was a total disaster, it led to Steve Sinofsky "leaving" Microsoft, it was totally unable to blunt the perceived threat of new computing platforms like phone and tablet, WinRT was a disaster, it spurred Valve into making SteamOS, it basically guaranteed MS as a second-class power in the tech world who wouldn't be part of the game going forward. Any smart upgrades on the tech - and there were some - went out the window with the litany of bad decisions. It basically marked the end of Microsoft's reign as the big dog in technology.

Windows 8 was fucking awesome.

Spoiler

If your only other OS experience in life was Windows Millenium Edition

 

[Syphon Filter]

Windows 8 was fucking awesome.

Spoiler

If your only other OS experience in life was Windows Millenium Edition

ME is good, never got the hate.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Windows 11's HDR support is actually totally broken, and has been totally broken since release. If you need to actually WORK in HDR (like for video production), you're shit out of luck because the color management system doesn't work in HDR. If you're just playing games, then you're not going to notice, but it's totally borked.

Win11 still can't make the regular Windows desktop not look like flaming dogshit in HDR and it's 2024, so most people stay out of HDR except when opening games because the desktop looks so awful unless you are back in SDR

Meanwhile my MacBook Pro has been casually handling HDR and SDR correctly without me even noticing when it automatically switches since the day I bought it

 

[MarkMe2525]

Why is this general issue in IT that there is this forced updating in everything that results in worse results than before? This is kind of a rhetorical question as I have ideas. Talent going away, DEI-based hiring instead of merit-based and this sounds like a conspiracy theory but I think the industry is benefitting from this (lack of optimization and striving for quality) as this also forces users to upgrade their hardware. So everyone wins in the end, except the end-user who is fucked in every way by corpos.

"forced updating in everything that results in worse results than before?" But hasn't this been a complaint since the early versions of windows? More often then not, everyone complains when the new versions of the OS are shoved down our throats, then everyone complains when MS eventually sunsets their previous OS's. I just don't see how one can make the connection to "hiring practices" when we have been hearing the same complaints for 20+ years, well before such initiatives where in vouge.

 

[simpatico]

Unless Microsoft as a company go on some type of DMT retreat and do a 180 on a lot on things, Windows 10 will be the last Windows I use. Steam Deck stirring up all this Linux development will blunt a lot of the annoyances. Or I can just run a jacked up version of Windows 10 until directx kicks me in the dick.

 

[AnOldBrownie_67]

Been running it since preview builds and haven't had a single issue. I do a good amount of optimization but nothing too crazy.

This is where I'm at. And I'm an old school cross platform computer user who had a Powerbook 3400, used BeOS and I'm currently dual booting Windows 11 with Linux Mint on my gaming rig.

Windows 11 has been rock solid on my HP Envy 16 that I've been running for 15 months now. I even run old programs like Madden 08 and Photoshop 7.0 on it without a hiccup.

I'm definitely not a power user though. Excel, Web based apps and gaming are pretty much all I use my laptop for.

 

[TwiztidElf]

I remember when malware, keyloggers, and trojan horses were BAD, and could even end up getting a person put in jail.
Now, they're built into the Operating System.

/Linux Mint user here fwiw.

 

[Risible]

I remember when malware, keyloggers, and trojan horses were BAD, and could even end up getting a person put in jail.
Now, they're built into the Operating System.

/Linux Mint user here fwiw.

 

[kiphalfton]

Still free upgrade from windows 10 to 11?

 

[Minsc]

3 products have held us back too long:

- Windows.
- Office.
- Adobe Creative Suite.

1 is almost down imo because its only real consumer use is because of 2 and 3, we have 2 more shitty products to go.

The day these 3 products fuck off entirely or get replaced by something better, the entire world will experience mass jubilation the likes of which you've never seen.

I left Adobe CS for Affinity a while ago, and should have done so much sooner. Office I haven't felt a need to use in ages, Google's free apps do everything there. Windows... well, that's eventually going to be made obsolete by SteamOS + WINE (or Proton or whatever) if things keep up, but that's still a while's off. And while I'd love to use another OS, everything just runs fine for me w/ Windows, and if you want higher end gaming, it's pretty much required for the nVidia GPU drivers.

 

[bender]

NT 4.0 WS is my favorite workstation flavor of Windows. The lack of DirectX support was troublesome for gaming but it was fun trying to hack around that and we had great websites like ntcompatible.com.

I left Adobe CS for Affinity a while ago, and should have done so much sooner. Office I haven't felt a need to use in ages, Google's free apps do everything there. Windows... well, that's eventually going to be made obsolete by SteamOS + WINE (or Proton or whatever) if things keep up, but that's still a while's off. And while I'd love to use another OS, everything just runs fine for me w/ Windows, and if you want higher end gaming, it's pretty much required for the nVidia GPU drivers.

Took the plunge on the Affinity sweet two days ago with their Black Friday 50% off deal. Though in my case, I'm upgrading from Paint.net. I haven't messed with Adobe in ages.

 

[Hoddi]

Win11 is no better or worse than Win10. I've had more applications break going between different versions of Win10 than between Win10 and Win11. Like things that worked on 1809 but not on 20H2 and vice versa.

It's why I dislike this 'rolling updates' approach to modern Windows. If something works on the first version of Win10/11 then you'd also expect it to work on the final version but that's no longer the case.