Wow, I didn't know that they ported Photoshop to Metro/WinRT. Cool if they did, I stand corrected.
Windows 8 Release Preview
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Wow, I didn't know that they ported Photoshop to Metro/WinRT. Cool if they did, I stand corrected.
Regardless of whether it includes office or not, that pricing will relegate windows RT to single digit percentages in the tablet market.
there's literally no way this is possible, that's a worse decision than releasing the kin
saltywalrus
Member
The desktop supports touchscreen, but it is not optimized for fingers, and it is a poor experience. That is why Windows tablets have failed so far, and that is why MS made metro.
yeah i expect more people to buy x86 tablets with Windows 8
you use photoshop with your fingers? most people will use photoshop with a pen, which the desktop is perfect for.
With x86, you either get cutting edge and expensive <20nm intel chips in tablets comparable in size and weight and power consumption to the iPad, or more reasonably priced but unwieldy and power hungry AMD tablets (due to inferior manufacturing process compared to intel). Don't see either beating the ipad.
Wiktor
Member
Depends if hybrids become standard for most laptops. Because I don't see iPad beating the laptop sales either.
Wiktor
Member
It's not like majority of people can see pixels in 15 inches 1920x1080. It's a feature a very small minority might aprecieate, so yeah, it's specs porn.
Plus I;m a gamer and such res makes most games unplayable on such weak GPU as GF650M and playing on non-native res makes games look like crap.
Also..I've used OSX in the past. Worst OS I've ever had misfortune of using. Pathetic software support, basic hardware either not working or requiring huge workarounds to make it work, while on PC it's plug and play. I guess OSX might be nice if you live in USA or few other countries, but for majority of the world (where Macs have 1% or less market share, so nobody bothers supporting them) it is pretty bad choice for everyday OS.
Can you expand on this? This just simple like blatant tolling. What's fundamentally better about iOS at content creation than Windows 8 at the OS level?
Laptop sales, no, hybrid sales, easily.
Hybrids have been around for 10+ years, and they haven't been anything more than a niche. I don't see this changing, they'll either be extremely weak ARM laptops or extremely heavy x86 tablets.
1440x900 will be perfectly playable with that GPU, and since it's exactly 1/4 of the native res, it'll scale perfectly and not "look like crap."
i think that might change with hardware advancements and a new OS that is perfect for the hybrid design. I honestly would just ignore previous history with x86 tablets, i don't think it has any bearing on these new devices. Entirely different circumstances imo.
And i don't think the hybrids will be that heavy, i think the lenovo yogo demoed at CES was something like 1.5 kg, so something like twice the weight of the ipad. the yoga had a keybaord and 13 inch screen. There are of course going to be a ton of detachable hybrid designs as well.
Wiktor
Member
People were saying the same about laptops in early 90s and yet now they eclipsed desktop. For the past 10 years the technology and OS just wasn't there to support it. People like convergence, so if they can get laptop that also will work well as a tablet many will go for it. And I doubt they will be "extremely heavy". Even ultrabooks aren't extreme heavy and if you care about weight so much you can just get a hybrid with separate keyboard
Maybe, but gaming in 1440 x 900? Ughh..
Also...even in 1440 x 900 that GPU won't be able to handle max settings in most advanced modern games.
All of that isn't a big problem though, as I doubt any sensible person would buy the new Macbook pro specifically for gaming.
The widgets and APIs available to developers to design their interfaces are much further along in iOS. Metro is still quite barebones. I imagine it will get better in the future, in fact it will need to if MS is planning on minimizing their customers use of the legacy desktop, but at the moment it is much easier to design content creation apps on iOS than it is WinRT.
AdrianWerner: If by software support you mean games, then I will not contest that, you are completely correct. OS X has always had pretty good international and language support, so I don't know what you are talking about there. You must not be very old, or not get out much if you OS X is the worst OS you have ever used, but we are all entitled to our opinions.
As for tablet vs. laptop sales, pretty much all the pundits and forecasting groups are placing the time tablets will outsell laptops somewhere around 2015. Maybe hybrids will change this, but they have been around since the XP days and so far haven't.
saltywalrus
Member
Most tablet users aren't going to use photoshop, and most tablet users won't use pens. If people wanted to use pens in desktop Windows, why have previous Windows tablets failed horribly?
Doing serious work is niche, and it won't sell millions of tablets.
Saving files directly for one.
This seems to suggest otherwise:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5770/lava-xolo-x900-review-the-first-intel-medfield-phone/4
I don't think people fully appreciate how slow ARM processors really are. Considering Intel's very first ultra-low voltage cell phone processor crushes 99% of arm-based phones....on an old OS....that's not optimized for x86....and based on the painfully slow Atom
well of course previous Windows failed because of the pen. Windows 8 has a new interface made for the finger. But if you want to use photoshop (which most would use with a pen on a tablet) then its there as a option. And yes, most people won't do real work on a tablet, but having the option is always nice.
I'm just looking at it from a simple physical standpoint.
For hybrids, the notebook "lid" has to contain the cpu, gpu, memory, battery, speakers. This means it'll either be ARM which is weak for a laptop, or a massive power hungry x86 which is too heavy for a tablet, or an efficient intel x86 "atom" chip which will be a lot more expensive than an ARM and still not fast enough for a laptop. This will make it extremely top heavy compared to a standard laptop. Not to mention, the ipad at 9.7" is already quite big, but 9.7" is small for a laptop screen, so you'll either have a huge tablet or a too small notebook.
The physical constraints are too great, and therefore I think hybrids will never take off.
Steelyuhas
Member
I will happily pay big coin for an awesome spec Intel x86 tablet.
How does it suggest otherwise? It'll never be cheap as how much Apple and Samsung are paying for their ARM CPU's and no one else makes money from phones at the moment.
saltywalrus
Member
It doesn't really matter if Intel CPUs cost more. The majority of the cost of a tablet comes from screen, flash memory, battery and operating system (if it's running Windows).
Manufacturers can skimp on other components or make lower profit margins.
Wiktor
Member
First of all, stop acting like an immature fanboy, your attempts to offend me really put you in a bad light.
Second..no..I didn't mean games. I meant everyday software. Fact is, Macs aren't popular in most parts of the world and platforms that aren't popular do not get a lot of support. . So in most countries the software support for a platform that has like 1-2% marketshare tends to be terrible. Tax software, official goverment issued one, educational programs, managers and drivers for hardware, business software...basic everyday software.
So yes, when I get an OS that doesn't support a lot of local software, where even connecting to a damn internet requires jumping through hoops and sometimes even buying a new hardware to replace the one issued by the provider, where many of the common accessories do not work plug and play.... well, to pick such OS you need to be a huge fan of it, because from logical point of view it makes zero sense to pick it.
That would require a huge surge in desktop sales, as most analyst predict by 2015 PCs will still be outselling tablets. And most of all, by 2015 there will still be three times as many PCs in use as tablets. The upgrade cycle for PCs is just a lot slower than for tablets, so using annual sales numbers doesn't show the real image of what people use.
LOL, that's because all tablets are ARM, and ARM is dirt cheap. Of course the majority of the cost comes from other components.
When you add an Intel CPU to the mix, you're adding another component that makes up the "majority" of the cost along with others. Combine that with a regular win8 license (not RT), and that's like 80-90 bucks right there before you even start adding other components, compared to $10-15 for the ARM tablet with iOS/Android(both are free). Now given that the ipad 2 retails for $399, that doesn't leave much room for saving costs that won't adversely affect the consumer, such as using a cheap low quality screen or using cheap materials or having less flash.
Wiktor
Member
True. But a Win8 hybrid is still bound to be a lot cheaper than a decent laptop + tablet combo and it will also be a lot more convenient.
saltywalrus
Member
Look up the bill of materials for a tablet, then look up the price for Clovertrail CPUs. I couldn't find any concrete info on the cost of the Intel CPUs that will be used in Windows 8 tablets, but Intel seems to playing ball.
The extra cost is certainly worth the benefit. A Windows 8 tablet is much more useful than a Windows RT tablet.
Is there anyway to move that giant bar that comes up on the right side of the screen? Kind of annoying to hit it when I accidentally want to scroll.
EDIT: Also, if I'm on a laptop, is there any reason to use IE Metro over say the regular IE? (I use Firefox and Chrome, but I'm just curios.)
EDIT: Also, if I'm on a laptop, is there any reason to use IE Metro over say the regular IE? (I use Firefox and Chrome, but I'm just curios.)
Wiktor
Member
Battery life when using flash sites?
So really nothing though? Nothing really interesting or tangible I'm guessing?
It'll neither be a good laptop nor a good tablet, so I doubt that.
Well here's a link:
http://www.fudzilla.com/processors/item/22092-tablet-atom-z670-cost-$75
Add the $40-45 cost for windows 8 oem, and you have a very significant difference. I have been using my retina iPad for a while, and I know for a fact that even that is a bit on the heavy side. anything heavier and/or more expensive will be a failure in the market.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
So I had to boot back into Win7 for the first time in a couple of months....yeah, the Start menu is really such a cumbersome way to try to get to programs. I felt like I did going back to Vista after using the Win7 beta as my main OS way back when. The whole OS feels clunky and slow by comparison. I've really gotten used to the snappiness of Win8.
I normaly use a pen , thats the great thing about windows.
Well look , Theo nly thing that x86 tablets will have to deal with is the cpu. X86 tablets using i7s and Trinitys will only consume 17 watts . You'll get active cooling and most likely 5-6 hours of battery life.
The thing is that these will be much more powerful than arm tablets and people will find a use for them.
Nobody can knock its speed. I'm on a semi-older laptop and it has been blazing-ly fast and really smooth. I love a really smooth and fast UI, it goes a long way for me.
Sigh , how is IOS free ? Does apple not invest any money in keeping it up to date ?
Andriod may be free but how many andriod devices come with google maps , google play store ? Yea the andriod oems pay google for those.
You realize none of that is sounding good compared to cheaper, 10-hour battery life <5W ARM CPU tablets (the entire iPad charger is 12.5W!), without any (noisy, prone to fail)fans inside them, right? That's before you even get to the crushing superiority of the ipad app store over other tablet OS's.
Please find me a mainstream use case for such a tablet which is not doable on ARM, while being better on a tablet than just using a laptop/desktop with even more powerful hardware inside.
It doesn't have a per device cost like a windows license and the cost is amortized over hundreds of millions of ios devices and just included in company R&D overhead. Apple R&D costs are tiny compared to how much revenue and profit they make every quarter.
1. Do you have any links for that, along with how much they pay google?
2. Google branded phones don't pay for those either.
Aren't their margins already razor-thin?
Wiktor
Member
Yep. THe only reason to use metro app when on desktop/laptop is if there's no desktop version of it.
Wiktor
Member
Why? Many hybrids shown on Comdex seem to be both good laptops and good tablets.
Will they be as good as sepatate tablet or laptop? Propably not, but they might be good enough for most people.
People just like convergence. Smartphones are also not good mp3 players and they are at best mediocre cameras, but for most people they do those good enough not to bother carrying separate mp3 or small camera
I installed the Metro version of Chrome hoping that I'd get a live-tile to go with it, but there's nothing of the sort yet. 
Not even a proper metro tile.
The actual browser is a bit nicer, though. Everything is a tad, tiny bit bigger - you can tell touch input is in mind, but I actually prefer it this way even for desktop use. Seems cleaner - the menu's use Win 8's new flat, box aesthetic, and it's feature complete otherwise.
Not even a proper metro tile. The actual browser is a bit nicer, though. Everything is a tad, tiny bit bigger - you can tell touch input is in mind, but I actually prefer it this way even for desktop use. Seems cleaner - the menu's use Win 8's new flat, box aesthetic, and it's feature complete otherwise.
I installed the Metro version of Chrome hoping that I'd get a live-tile to go with it, but there's nothing of the sort yet.
The actual browser is a bit nicer, though. Everything is a tad, tiny bit bigger - you can tell touch input is in mind, but I actually prefer it this way even for desktop use. Seems cleaner - the menu's use Win 8's new flat, box aesthetic, and it's feature complete otherwise.
Is it a completely different tile from regular Chrome?
You can't. There's no upgrade option in Release Preview, only clean install. However, if you will try to "upgrade" (i.e. install Windows 8 on currently installed Win7) the installer will dump the content of your Windows, Program Files and User files into windows.old directory so you shouldn't loose anything. Everything that isn't in any system folder should stay intact after the "upgrade".
Meh doesn't matter now HDD died.
chickdigger802
Banned
So preview users. How is the desktop experience? I can get win8 for free due to Msdnn, so cost isn't the problem.
Besides the loss of start screen (which i rarely used), any other big notable elements that are drastically different?
Besides the loss of start screen (which i rarely used), any other big notable elements that are drastically different?
Everything is much more fluid then what I remember W7 being. It takes you about half a day before you are accustomed to how to do things from Windows 7. It feels more like a side-step rather than a step back or forward. I'm really liking it so far though.
brotkasten
Member
Aero will be replaced with a more flat, Metro looking interface in the RTM, so it won't be that bad.
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