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[DForce]

Let me guess - the "symbolism" of TLOU 2 was that you don't have to be so hateful towards other people and spare them right even after they kill your loved ones? Abby killing Joel made sense because he killed her father. Ellie didn't kill Abby even though she should have and had every right too. Let me know how you feel if someone kills your mother and father and if you spare them and be like "oh, it okie!

This is the biggest mistake in your argument.

Here's something you have to realize

Joel was not Ellie's father.

Ellie and Joel had a rocky relationship for 3 years after the first game and she then spent the 2 years hating him. This was not the father-and-daughter relationship every critic wants to believe.

Ellie knew what Joel did was wrong, and because of this, she knew Abby's actions were justified.

She traveled to Seattle to find out answers and she got them when she killed Nora who told her why they killed Joel. This entirely changes Ellie's perspective and her quest for revenge. She went to California because of guilt. Right before Ellie left, Dana told her that she doesn't "Owe Tommy anything."

Let's say you woke up one day and found out that your friend was brutally beaten to death. You want the person who committed that act to either die or spend the rest of his life in prison. But what if find out a month later that the person was defending himself from your friend and it was caught on tape? Your entire opinion of that person would likely change. This is not a 1-for-1 comparison, but people's thoughts do change after finding out the truth about what happened.

The ending was not "symbolism." Deep down she knew what Joel did was wrong and caused the death of many people to save her.

I understand we are besties now! Muh symbolis!!!!1111" yeah genius symbolism. No fuck off with that, shit ending, shit story. 1st game had amazing story but 2nd game disrespects the 1st. Why did Joel all of a sudden decided to help random people in TLOU 2? Real Joel from TLOU 1 would never ever trust anyone. Instead, he just walks himself into a fucking ambush like the idiot he is and goes against his morals. Very inconsistent character writing.

He trusted Henry and Sam in the first game. He trusted to follow them to their hideout without knowing anyone there. This "Joel never trusted anyone" narrative is bogus. Joel would in fact trust more people like Sam and Henry. Even Jackson brought in new people and they were recruiting people all the time.

Also, Joel didn't even walk into an ambush. They were being chased by a horde with limited options for safety. They needed to find shelter and they weren't going to outrun anyone.

 

[scydrex]

Insomniac because of their updates and their good output. ND aside from TLOU 2 what other game they have released? Part 1 is a remake. SM aside from GOW 2 this weekend what? Or last gen gen? Insomniac deliver good games.

 

[Warnen]

Bungie

 

[DragoonWalker]

Insomniac is their best studio. Nobody has delivered better than they have the last 5 years. 4 games in that time, while Naughty Dog has delivered 3.

I don't understand how Insomniac is able to deliver so many games every generation while all the other studios have slowed down to a struggle to even deliver 1. Their time and resource management must be amazing.

 

[CosmicComet]

The last time I was fan of Naughty Dog was probably Jak 3 in 2004

I've been a huge fan of Santa Monica ever since GoW first came out in 2005.

 

[Thief1987]

Insomniac because of their updates and their good output. ND aside from TLOU 2 what other game they have released? Part 1 is a remake. SM aside from GOW 2 this weekend what? Or last gen gen? Insomniac deliver good games.

Insomniac only developed Ratchet&Clank 2016 and Spider Man for Sony on last gen. And by your definitions R&C doesn't even count because it's a remake. ND has TLOUR, UC4, Lost Legacy and TLOU2.

 

[SlimySnake]

This is true, but to me GoW’s design is larger, more diverse, with better combat and huge set piece moments.

ND design is highly cinematic focused and all you can do is move in one direction (linear), with very limited combat or gameplay diversity.

Insomniac games are more lighthearted and a tad less cinematic heavy, but their quality and efficiency more than make up for it.

TBH, I think ND shouldve taken Uncharted in that metroidvania/tomb raider direction with U4. That one level in lost legacy where you explore a lost city and solve around visit 9 tombs was brilliant and shouldve been the entire game.

I would like to see ND leave this linear design behind and go make an RPG. Doesnt have to be open world. It could be self contained like GOW or smallish like Mass Effect. That would be one way to add depth to their combat. You can only take AI and animations so far.

Insomniac disappointed me with Ratchet. The puzzles were awful, the level design felt uninspired despite the level switching in some levels, and ultimately the game didnt exactly bring anything new to the franchise. Had they developed the entire game around the portal mechanic like say Portal 1 and 2 then maybe, but it feels like a massive missed opportunity. they are a first party studio now. they have to aim higher.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

TBH, I think ND shouldve taken Uncharted in that metroidvania/tomb raider direction with U4. That one level in lost legacy where you explore a lost city and solve around visit 9 tombs was brilliant and shouldve been the entire game.

I would like to see ND leave this linear design behind and go make an RPG. Doesnt have to be open world. It could be self contained like GOW or smallish like Mass Effect. That would be one way to add depth to their combat. You can only take AI and animations so far.

Insomniac disappointed me with Ratchet. The puzzles were awful, the level design felt uninspired despite the level switching in some levels, and ultimately the game didnt exactly bring anything new to the franchise. Had they developed the entire game around the portal mechanic like say Portal 1 and 2 then maybe, but it feels like a massive missed opportunity. they are a first party studio now. they have to aim higher.

Don't necessarily agree with you on the direction with Lost Legacy, but I'm very interested in what Naughty Dog does with their next big game, excluding the obvious MP game they're working on.

Assuming it's a brand new IP, it'll be interesting to see if they continue to evolve as they have in most generations.

Rift Apart also disappointed me, but it also highlighted what they're capable of. I think they could make a great Mega Man game or they could make a great scifi game ala Mass Effect but with better gameplay.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I don't understand how Insomniac is able to deliver so many games every generation while all the other studios have slowed down to a struggle to even deliver 1. Their time and resource management must be amazing.

They reuse a lot of assets and their games aren't really all that expansive.

Miles Morales reuses the original game's assets and Rift Apart isn't a very large game.

Their output isn't THAT great. We'll see what they accomplish with Spider-Man 2 and Wolverine and if they're able to produce another game with original IP this generation.

 

[SlimySnake]

Don't necessarily agree with you on the direction with Lost Legacy, but I'm very interested in what Naughty Dog does with their next big game, excluding the obvious MP game they're working on.

Assuming it's a brand new IP, it'll be interesting to see if they continue to evolve as they have in most generations.

Rift Apart also disappointed me, but it also highlighted what they're capable of. I think they could make a great Mega Man game or they could make a great scifi game ala Mass Effect but with better gameplay.

they are capable of greatness. i think spiderman and resistance 3 showed just how capable they really are. they just dont want to take that extra step that separates the good from the greats.

I guess thats how they are able to pump out games so fast, but it comes at a cost. Spiderman 2 has taken 5 years, but just watch. They will make the same game as the first one but with better graphics. No new fancy destruction, physics systems, or Arkham style dungeons. No crazy AI simulations. No genre defining features. Just a very well made competent game with some cool Marvel setpieces.

 

[zkorejo]

ND isn't as good as they were. Uncharted 4 was forgettable, Tlou2 was a mess storywise and trying too hard with it's characters to the point where it just came off as desperate, weird and funny.

SSM has had a resurgence with GOW. So yeah I think SSM > ND right now.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The crown of PlayStations best studio goes to whoever launches the brands premier GAAS title.

The early contenders are likely Naughty Dog or Guerilla Games.

 

[DragoonWalker]

ND isn't as good as they were. Uncharted 4 was forgettable, Tlou2 was a mess storywise and trying too hard with it's characters to the point where it just came off as desperate, weird and funny.

SSM has had a resurgence with GOW. So yeah I think SSM > ND right now.

Naughty Dog needs to move on from Uncharted and TLOU... and from Drunkman. They have all the best talent in the world. They need to start afresh with a new IP and a new director.

 

[scydrex]

Insomniac only developed Ratchet&Clank 2016 and Spider Man for Sony on last gen. And by your definitions R&C doesn't even count because it's a remake. ND has TLOUR, UC4, Lost Legacy and TLOU2.

Can't argue with that. Let's see this gen how it goes. So far they released Rachet and Miles. Wolverine and spiderman 2 their next projects. TLOUR i wouldn't take into consideration neither remake or remaster. Only new IP.

 

[Represent.]

Naughty Dog needs to move on from Uncharted and TLOU... and from Drunkman. They have all the best talent in the world. They need to start afresh with a new IP and a new director.

I believe they have a New IP in the works while Neil is probably in the early stages of TLOU 3. TLOU 3 is too big a franchise to do away with.

But theres been rumors of both a new SciFi IP as well as fantasy.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

they are capable of greatness. i think spiderman and resistance 3 showed just how capable they really are. they just dont want to take that extra step that separates the good from the greats.

I guess thats how they are able to pump out games so fast, but it comes at a cost. Spiderman 2 has taken 5 years, but just watch. They will make the same game as the first one but with better graphics. No new fancy destruction, physics systems, or Arkham style dungeons. No crazy AI simulations. No genre defining features. Just a very well made competent game with some cool Marvel setpieces.

I'm entirely in alignment with you that they don't make masterpiece games. I think Spider-Man was closer to great than good, but it wasn't a masterpiece. There are so many things in the game that are just aggravating and chore-like. I hope that Insomniac has taken a look at Elden Ring and made changes around their open-world design. I just don't know how much that meshes with a linear storyline.

Too much of Spider-Man 1 was copy and paste efforts. I don't think they can afford to do that with Spider-Man 2 and I'm hoping this will be Insomniac's Uncharted 2.

 

[ReBurn]

We need Naughty Dog to release a new PS5 game. Then we can see who did a better job.

 

[MatrixReloaded101]

Hell no, ND made two classic franchises in Uncharted and Last of us. They are still the best Sony studio hands down.

 

[Woggleman]

Once ND releases their next original game then we can make this comparison. I know this is sacrilege but even though I like GOW I am not as big on the franchise as others.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

TBH, I think ND shouldve taken Uncharted in that metroidvania/tomb raider direction with U4. That one level in lost legacy where you explore a lost city and solve around visit 9 tombs was brilliant and shouldve been the entire game.

I would like to see ND leave this linear design behind and go make an RPG. Doesnt have to be open world. It could be self contained like GOW or smallish like Mass Effect. That would be one way to add depth to their combat. You can only take AI and animations so far.

Insomniac disappointed me with Ratchet. The puzzles were awful, the level design felt uninspired despite the level switching in some levels, and ultimately the game didnt exactly bring anything new to the franchise. Had they developed the entire game around the portal mechanic like say Portal 1 and 2 then maybe, but it feels like a massive missed opportunity. they are a first party studio now. they have to aim higher.

Absolutely. ND are still largely stuck in the PS3 era. There's many other ways to make compelling game design that can still be cinematic. Lost Legacy was a step in the right direction but still felt like a far cry from the more compelling design of GoW

Ratchet was only meant to be a Next Gen showcase, they delivered on that. I would like a revolutionary Ratchet that isn't rushed to make it early in next-gen though. Something with more compelling world design.

God of War has metroidvania elements, Souls-like level design and wide linear sections, extremely compelling combat, narrative, progression, interesting puzzles, huge set piece moments, and massive boss battles. It's basically Sony's Zelda and more. ND games lack a ton of that and feel less compelling as a result, though narratively they tend to be top of the industry.

 

[Amiga]

Insomniac have the the best workflow with the most output and constant high quality so they should be top.

 

[Salz01]

ND has lost some of their magic. Their tech and art are top notch. Insomniac make fun inventive creative games. Santa Monica need to make more / different games.

 

[Represent.]

Insomniac have the the best workflow with the most output and constant high quality so they should be top.

Since 2016

Ratchet and Clank
Spider-Man
Spider-Man: Miles Morales
Spider-Man Remastered
Ratchet PS5

Up coming:
Spider-Man 2
Wolverine

vs

Uncharted 4
Uncharted: Lost Legacy
The Last of Us Part II
Uncharted Collection
The Last of Us: Part I

Up coming:
Factions 2
Project with San Diego Studio
New IP

This idea that Insomniac has produced more than Naughty Dog is false, both are running practically at the same pace.

 

[gow3isben]

Ragnarok (My hope and expectation) > Uncharted 2 > GoW 2018 > GoW3 > Uncharted 3 > GoW 2 > Last of Us 2 > Uncharted LL > Last of Us > GoW > GoW Ascension > Uncharted Drake's Fortune

Jak and Crash don't count ND was a completely different studio back then.

SSM > ND

 

[Neolombax]

Its Bungie for me.

 

[Mr Branding]

They always were better than ND.

 

[Brigandier]

Naughty dogs output post PS3 has been slow considering their size and backing.

I didn't think much of UC4 and TLOU2, I hope they can return with a bang soon on PS5 with a new IP that wows us again.

 

[Chiggs]

Naughty Dog is still their best despite the divisive mess that is TLOU2, a game which will never outsell the original masterpiece...or be as loved.

 

[nial]

The one that made Resogun.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Yes. Undoubtedly. TLOU2 was an incredible disappointment as Druckman litteraly killed Sony franchise in order to "pervert expectations".

Edited

 

[Elder Legend]

This is the biggest mistake in your argument.

Here's something you have to realize

Joel was not Ellie's father.

Ellie and Joel had a rocky relationship for 3 years after the first game and she then spent the 2 years hating him. This was not the father-and-daughter relationship every critic wants to believe.

Ellie knew what Joel did was wrong, and because of this, she knew Abby's actions were justified.

She traveled to Seattle to find out answers and she got them when she killed Nora who told her why they killed Joel. This entirely changes Ellie's perspective and her quest for revenge. She went to California because of guilt. Right before Ellie left, Dana told her that she doesn't "Owe Tommy anything."

Let's say you woke up one day and found out that your friend was brutally beaten to death. You want the person who committed that act to either die or spend the rest of his life in prison. But what if find out a month later that the person was defending himself from your friend and it was caught on tape? Your entire opinion of that person would likely change. This is not a 1-for-1 comparison, but people's thoughts do change after finding out the truth about what happened.

The ending was not "symbolism." Deep down she knew what Joel did was wrong and caused the death of many people to save her.

He trusted Henry and Sam in the first game. He trusted to follow them to their hideout without knowing anyone there. This "Joel never trusted anyone" narrative is bogus. Joel would in fact trust more people like Sam and Henry. Even Jackson brought in new people and they were recruiting people all the time.

Also, Joel didn't even walk into an ambush. They were being chased by a horde with limited options for safety. They needed to find shelter and they weren't going to outrun anyone.

I don't know dude. I didn't like how they did it, there could of been way better ways to handle this whole thing. And yes Joel was like a literal father figure to Ellie. Sarah (actual Joel's daughter) dies at start of TLOU so now he has no daughter until he met Ellie and became emotionally attached to her because the death of his daughter caused a hurtful void in his life. Ellie filled that void, so obviously he would protect her at all cost after what happend to Sarah. Rocky relationship or not, he still cared for her like a father.

I am not buying the whole "oh she learned Joel did bad things so now she's having second thoughts of him" deal. Simply because when you care for someone enough you do not give a shit what they've done whether it's right or wrong. Joel was never a good guy to begin with and Naughty Dog never painted him as much. Yes, his a murderer that got what was coming for him sooner or later. But the whole forgiveness shit on Ellie's side to Abby was dumb as shit. I didn't like that and neither did many other people. Abby should have been killed as well. Ellie at the end of the day is the main character of the franchise.

Regardless, still a good game to play through but inconsistent with its storytelling.

 

[DForce]

I am not buying the whole "oh she learned Joel did bad things so now she's having second thoughts of him" deal. Simply because when you care for someone enough you do not give a shit what they've done whether it's right or wrong.

People do care.

A child might love their father, but if he killed their mother, they're simply not going to ignore it and just forgive him automatically. That's unrealistic behavior, even if you care for someone. What's realistic is accepting the fact that someone did someone wrong and someone else was justified for their actions.

Do you think Ellie would've just ignored the fact that Joel killed Marlene? No.
What Joel did in Ellie's eyes was wrong and she didn't just simply forgive him. She was angry with him for years.

 

[ANIMAL1975]

No love for media molecule and Poliphony...

In my opinion is a game by game situation, next naughty title could be the big one, or sucker punches, Guerrilla,... And we have yet to see firesprite work.
So i voted other.

 

[DEAD ORIGINAL]

Insomniac gonna take that crown.

 

[Die Namek Ability]

1a Naughty Dog
1b Insomniac
1c SSM
2a GG
2b Sucker Punch
2c Media Molicule
3a Bend
3b Polyphony Digital

New guys in a diff tier until they establish a firm track record like the rest.

Housemarq
Bluepoint


Whats nuts is that you could argue the 3 tier could be top devs for another company.

 

[Amiga]

Since 2016

Ratchet and Clank
Spider-Man
Spider-Man: Miles Morales
Spider-Man Remastered
Ratchet PS5


vs

Uncharted 4
Uncharted: Lost Legacy
The Last of Us Part II
Uncharted Collection
The Last of Us: Part I


This idea that Insomniac has produced more than Naughty Dog is false, both are running practically at the same pace.

Insomniac released 3 new games vs 1 from Naughty Dog. And Insomniac had the bigger seller.

The list you made makes ND more comparable to Bluepoint Games.

 

[Clover904]

they are definitely in the running, but personally I’d like to see another IP on the same level of GOW from Santa Monica. Naughty Dog has both The Last of Us and Uncharted. Cannot wait to see what Cory Balrog is cooking up.
So I’d say no, not quite yet, but that could easily change.

 

[Pedro Motta]

I have been a fan of God of War for the last couple of decades. I always enjoyed the gameplay and epic nature of the games. But with the recent God of War titles, they have reached a new level and the story and emotional connection for me makes the Norse saga a tier above.

I have also been a Naughty Dog fan, but Uncharted 4 and TLOU2 have felt super bloated to me and Naury Dog seems to have remained stagnant for the last few years.

Insomniac are fast becoming Sony’s most important studio and output quality titles on a very regular basis, but have always seemed slightly lower quality titles.

So GAF tell me, who is Sony’s best Studio.

I have some trouble giving a fuck about threads started with people with the same avatar as OP. It's like a stamp for bullshit.

 

[Roberts]

Every studio is as good as its last game (or two) and therefor SSM is better than others. Insomniac is perhaps more important as they have been the most productive but their games have yet to be anywhere near as memorable and interesting as GoW

 

[Trunim]

Naughty dog was my sole favourite up until the bullshit and waste of resources that’s called Last of us part 1. And now with rumours about some free to play multiplayer game, nah.

 

[Hugare]

Nah

SSM is 2nd best, by far. But ND is still the best in storytelling, tech, attention to detail, modelling, acting, script ...

GOW 2018 is an amazing game, but it had some stilted script sometimes. And from what I've seen from Ragnarok leaked videos, it still has some rough dialogue here and there.

ND is so good at what they do that sometimes they dont even need words. Ellie resting on her guitar at the end of the game tells a whole story just from her animation.

They have achieved a level of nuance that other studios werent able to recreate so far

Let me guess - the "symbolism" of TLOU 2 was that you don't have to be so hateful towards other people and spare them right even after they kill your loved ones? Abby killing Joel made sense because he killed her father. Ellie didn't kill Abby even though she should have and had every right too. Let me know how you feel if someone kills your mother and father and if you spare them and be like "oh, it okie! I understand we are besties now! Muh symbolis!!!!1111" yeah genius symbolism. No fuck off with that, shit ending, shit story. 1st game had amazing story but 2nd game disrespects the 1st. Why did Joel all of a sudden decided to help random people in TLOU 2? Real Joel from TLOU 1 would never ever trust anyone. Instead, he just walks himself into a fucking ambush like the idiot he is and goes against his morals. Very inconsistent character writing.

Abby spared Ellie first, at the theater fight. AND Dina too.

Ellie had already killed all of Abby's friends + "boyfriend" + a baby and yet she still spared Ellie and Dina

Goes to show, again, that people are so hurt by Joel's death that they cant see an inch of the other side's perspective

 

[dugdug]

Let me know when any other studio breaks TLOUP2’s GotY record and then we can talk.

 

[RJMacready73]

If you like mediocrity…

stop it you!

 

[skneogaf]

God of war 1.5 should not win game of the year.

I've pre ordered the most expensive version but nah, Elden Ring should be game of the year.

 

[Humdinger]

I think so, yeah. I've lost enthusiasm for ND games. Imo, they messed up Uncharted 4 by turning it into a family drama, and then they messed up TLOU2 by abandoning what made the first game good. I would pin that on Druckman's leadership. On the other hand, SSM seems to be in good hands.

I can't say I'm a huge fan of SSM's games. They seem to target a more brutal, melee-focused demographic than me. I thought GoW 2018 was fine, but I didn't love it. I'm expecting to enjoy Ragnarok a bit more, though. My personal preferences aside, though, just by looking at reviews, they've hit it out of the park.

I enjoy games from Insomniac more than games from either SSM or ND, but I can't claim they are the "best" studio. I have to give that to SSM.

 

[Banjo64]

The blight that was TLoU 2 isn’t enough to undo Uncharted 1-4 and LL / TLoU. Still number 1 for me.

 

[MonkeyClaw36]

Doesn't matter if TLOU is done or not, the whole thing of TLOU 2 just being a revenge plot from start to finish is abysmal. And once you do get to Abby you let her get away multiple times and then spare her at the end. Shit writing, zero consistency and too much virtue signaling as well for the sake of virtue signaling. Don't even try to deny it. Gameplay is great, but story is utter garbage.

I AM going to deny it, because it's just your little opinion. Dont try to pass your view off as hard truth. Because, sorry to shit in your Corn Flakes, it is just 1 man's opinion.
Now go write a better story that EVERYONE likes or just stfu for today ok?

Some people here... Boy oh boy.

 

[Elder Legend]

I AM going to deny it, because it's just your little opinion. Dont try to pass your view off as hard truth. Because, sorry to shit in your Corn Flakes, it is just 1 man's opinion.
Now go write a better story that EVERYONE likes or just stfu for today ok?

Some people here... Boy oh boy.

I mean same could be said about anyones opinion as well tiny Tim. Don't Just pass off your opinion as hard truth either? 1 man's opinion remember? Also, why you so angry discussing a video game plot? LOL, back to your corner with your dunce hat where you belong please and don't speak back if you can't discuss things properly without raising your voice.

I highly suggest you find therapy for anger management bro.
You got so angry because you are not in control here and can't respect someone else's opinion. Also, nice forum name, Monkey Claw... is that what you turn into when you are upset, a raging monkey that claws people? Sure do live up to your name their. I can respect that!

 

[DaedalusGrim]

Doesn't matter if TLOU is done or not, the whole thing of TLOU 2 just being a revenge plot from start to finish is abysmal. And once you do get to Abby you let her get away multiple times and then spare her at the end. Shit writing, zero consistency and too much virtue signaling as well for the sake of virtue signaling. Don't even try to deny it. Gameplay is great, but story is utter garbage.

I see the entire "never forgave Joel" subplot flew clean over your head then.

 

[Elder Legend]

Nah

SSM is 2nd best, by far. But ND is still the best in storytelling, tech, attention to detail, modelling, acting, script ...

GOW 2018 is an amazing game, but it had some stilted script sometimes. And from what I've seen from Ragnarok leaked videos, it still has some rough dialogue here and there.

ND is so good at what they do that sometimes they dont even need words. Ellie resting on her guitar at the end of the game tells a whole story just from her animation.

They have achieved a level of nuance that other studios werent able to recreate so far



Abby spared Ellie first, at the theater fight. AND Dina too.

Ellie had already killed all of Abby's friends + "boyfriend" + a baby and yet she still spared Ellie and Dina

Goes to show, again, that people are so hurt by Joel's death that they cant see an inch of the other side's perspective

What do you consider cringe dialogue in God of War 2018 and God of War Ragnarok? You have some examples please?

I've beaten both games, the only thing I find cringe in the dialogue is the cursing in Ragnarok between from the gods. Hearing Odin and Thor saying "fuck" all the time kind of got dumb.

It feels out of place for a Norse Mythology. Other than that, I found the dialogue quite good and never really annoying like most games where a character won't ever shut up.

From my experience the random dialgoue in both games usually relates to what just happened. Mimir is an amazing character for example with great lore related dialogue.

As for the Last of Us 2, yes I get what ND tried to do and symbolize but I don't think they did a very good job at that. The story felt way to dragged out. Abby was a carrot the entire time in front of Ellie that you were told to chase all the way through, the ending just didn't feel satisfying to me. Something about it was off.

And as far Joel dying and triggering everyones emotions I don't think people are upset that he died in the first place. Many, if not most already expected him to die before the game even came out. His death was already written on the wall. He killed so many people in his past that it was bound to happen sooner or later.

I think what pissed most people off is how he died. And that was getting caught by helping a stranger group, then being surrounded and beaten to death by a golf club. That's why you always see the golf club memes.