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[WaterAstro]

I wonder what the stats are like for NHL.

I remember Edmonton consistently got first pick, and consistently ended up at the bottom.

 

[Kevtones]

Chris Paul to the Lakers being veto'd was because the league, at the time, collectively owned the Hornets. So it made a little bit of sense for owners like Dan Gilbert and Mark Cuban (who, effectively, were 1/30th owners of the Hornets at the time) to say they don't approve of the trade. It was a stupid, one-off situation, and not something you can apply to future transactions.

To your second point, nothing is stopping Paul George or LeBron from taking whatever money they want, and nothing should. You want the NBA to step in and tell LeBron he needs to take more money? Why would they care? The NBA is run by the owners, why would they want players to take MORE money? What is really causing the issues you are describing are max contracts. The league has already artificially put a ceiling on how much players can make. IF they removed this, and all of a sudden KD had to decide between taking a hair less than the max from GSW, or taking $50 million a year from LA or Philly, that makes the decision a little more difficult, wouldn't you say? As it stands now, the league has basically said that LeBron James and Paul George are essentially worth the same, which is ridiculous. IF all teams are offering the exact same amount of money, why would a player choose to go to a mediocre or outright bad team over a contender?

KD to GSW felt a little different than Bron to South Beach. Bron was more a superteam defined while KD's move seemed almost anti-competitive. Suppose that's a beef with Durant but I feel like the league could've had something in place. Think we can all agree last year's playoffs would've been infinitely better if KD were still on OKC.

You're right that the players and GSW shouldn't be penalized for drafting well or KD's decision but its not a good direction for the league to be so complicit with the consolidation of talent.

The max contract issue goes both ways. Big market/small market teams would engage in weird bidding wars that inevitably favor big market teams. Thinking it would just add to the problem.

 

[El Topo]

I don't think it's reasonable to punish teams for making smart moves *per se*. You want good work to be rewarded.

 

[jdstorm]

Not sure this fixes tanking since teams will still want the extra 1% chance to win the lottery. It also won't do shit for competitive balance since most drafts are 5 stars deep so there will still be incentive to get as close to the No1 pick as possible.

However it will adress the feeling of hopelessness that fans of "treadmill" teams have had to deal with for the past decade and that should help placate the fans of most teams who don't have a shot.

Ultimately what this proposal doesn't adress is the NBA's biggest issue which is teams using draft picks and the rookie scale to launder basketball assets. Until that gets adressed and it becomes possible for the majority of teams to improve via free agency the NBA will never have parity.

 

[LionPride]

KD to GSW felt a little different than Bron to South Beach. Bron was more a superteam defined while KD's move seemed almost anti-competitive. Suppose that's a beef with Durant but I feel like the league could've had something in place. Think we can all agree last year's playoffs would've been infinitely better if KD were still on OKC.

You're right that the players and GSW shouldn't be penalized for drafting well or KD's decision but its not a good direction for the league to be so complicit with the consolidation of talent.

The max contract issue goes both ways. Big market/small market teams would engage in weird bidding wars that inevitably favor big market teams. Thinking it would just add to the problem.

Yes, stop a free agent from going where they want to go, great way to make your players happy

 

[Kevtones]

Yes, stop a free agent from going where they want to go, great way to make your players happy

If making player happy makes the league more money they'll do it. If that makes it a boring, perfunctory mess then they'll still do it.


What I'm saying is the 2016-17 season, and particularly its playoffs, were terrible. There's got to be a better way and the most identifiable reason why it was boring was because of the Superteams.

I mean if not for an extremely fluky victory by the Celtics, the Cavs/Warriors teams go 24-0 before the finals. That's atrocious.

 

[Boogs31]

What I'm saying is the 2016-17 season, and particularly its playoffs, were terrible. There's got to be a better way and the most identifiable reason why it was boring was because of the Superteams.

I mean if not for an extremely fluky victory by the Celtics, the Cavs/Warriors teams go 24-0 before the finals. That's atrocious.

I totally understand you calling last seasons playoffs boring because you knew who was going to the Finals. I don't understand how that made the regular season boring. I'm not going to watch a game between Minnesota and Denver this upcoming season because I think it'll impact who wins the title, but it can still be entertaining. The league is in a good place in terms of entertainment value. I'm legitimately excited to watch about 2/3rds of the teams in the NBA. If you can't enjoy a regular season NBA game in November because the Cavs and Warriors are heavy favorites to make the Finals, I question how much you enjoy watching basketball in the first place.

 

[LyleLanley]

I'm convinced the people complaining about the regular season last year didn't actually watch any of the games.

 

[Bread]

The talent level of this league is so high right now, this regular season was amazing. The playoffs weren't great but they were far from bad as well.

 

[Kevtones]

I totally understand you calling last seasons playoffs boring because you knew who was going to the Finals. I don't understand how that made the regular season boring. I'm not going to watch a game between Minnesota and Denver this upcoming season because I think it'll impact who wins the title, but it can still be entertaining. The league is in a good place in terms of entertainment value. I'm legitimately excited to watch about 2/3rds of the teams in the NBA. If you can't enjoy a regular season NBA game in November because the Cavs and Warriors are heavy favorites to make the Finals, I question how much you enjoy watching basketball in the first place.

Why not have both be good? Shouldn't that be the goal?


In my viewing experience, the regular season is fun but the postseason is where players really give a shit. It's usually must-see TV no matter who is playing and something I make time for. These playoffs were historically boring in every round.

 

[LionPride]

I'm convinced the people complaining about the regular season last year didn't actually watch any of the games.

They couldn't have, at all.

Or the playoffs shit, I got to watch another collapse by the Wiz and Clippers, see what the Spurs could possibly do to the Warriors with a healthy Kawhi, see Dame and CJ combine for 75 and still lose because Nurk was playing on one fucking leg, see the Celtics score like 20 in one half, see KD be Iceberg Slim and assert himself as definitely a top2/3 player rn, and see Kyrie be Kyrie. I was happy.

 

[Caddywompus]

I'm convinced the people complaining about the regular season last year didn't actually watch any of the games.

And that's why Westbrook won MVP

 

[LionPride]

And that's why Westbrook won MVP

It was him, Kawhi, or Harden

*shrug* a 30 point TD average is still impressive as fuck regardless of how he did it

 

[bobbleheadal]

You can easily tell how much some one knows about basketball when they start the old man yelling to get off my lawn crap. Defense is objectively much better today. It is much harder to score in today's game. You just have so much more space to cover with better shooting at all positions and more skilled players to defend on the floor. You have to guard against much more complex offensive schemes versus just having to guard one guy trying to ISO the entire game. There are tons of classic games on NBA TV that you can easily watch if you want validation. What are you going to see? A bunch of people standing around watching one guy pound the hell out of the ball in isolation. No one moving. If you want to go back to the 80s you can witness the non-aggression treaty that every small forward seemed to sign off on, because nobody played any defense at all.

Hand checking wouldn't change anything. Mahmoud Abdul Rauf and a myriad of smaller less skilled guards got buckets during the "amazing defense" era. They allow a lot more contact in the playoffs now, especially off ball on Steph. Chris Paul already fouls Steph non stop the entire game and it doesn't work. Even if you were going to argue that it would limit him, he could shed that defender off a screen in a pick and roll anyways. You know, the thing that no one today has figured out how to guard yet. Good luck Luc Longley trying to guard Steph on a switch. The same options potentially would exist with hand checking. Trap or hedge and you will be playing 3 vs 4. Switch and your big gets destroyed. Your big sags he gets a wide open look from three. You are still getting beat. Shooting is valuable in any era. I find it hard to believe that the greatest shooter of all time couldn't score 24 ppg against hand checking. I mean, watch a warriors game instead of the highlights. Most of his shots aren't off the dribble trying to play one on one.

 

[Peter Ian Staker]

The talent level of this league is so high right now, this regular season was amazing. The playoffs weren't great but they were far from bad as well.

Playoffs were fucking trash especially compared to last year.

Cavs and Warriors barely lost a game on the way to the Finals.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Playoffs were fucking trash especially compared to last year.

Cavs and Warriors barely lost a game on the way to the Finals.

The playoffs were mediocre, but not "lets panic and make wholesale changes to the entire product even though it's incredibly popular and thriving" bad.

 

[John Dunbar]

do any of the major american sports have relegation? why not try that if tanking is a problem? seems unamerican to be rewarded for sucking.

 

[LyleLanley]

do any of the major american sports have relegation? why not try that if tanking is a problem? seems unamerican to be rewarded for sucking.

No owner is going to vote in favor of relegation.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

do any of the major american sports have relegation? why not try that if tanking is a problem? seems unamerican to be rewarded for sucking.

Because the leagues are not set up for it, and owners would never agree to it. You realize how much money they'd lose if all of a sudden the Nets or Sixers were demoted to the G-League?

 

[LionPride]

Only sport that needs relegation is college football

 

[John Dunbar]

Because the leagues are not set up for it, and owners would never agree to it. You realize how much money they'd lose if all of a sudden the Nets or Sixers were demoted to the G-League?

so it's like rich people communism.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

so it's like rich people communism.

Basically. American pro sports leagues are essentially set up to save stupid/shitty owners from themselves.

 

[TestedTurok]

I like it. Brings back value to regular season games and besides teams trade draft picks all the time.

 

[Fatalah]

... they're changing the rules the year the Knicks finally decide to tank on purpose?

Wonderful.

 

[LyleLanley]

... they're changing the rules the year the Knicks finally decide to tank on purpose?

Wonderful.

So you're telling me the Knicks losing for decades at a time wasn't intentional?

 

[Peter Ian Staker]

The playoffs were mediocre, but not "lets panic and make wholesale changes to the entire product even though it's incredibly popular and thriving" bad.

Changes to the lottery aren't exactly drastic changes to the product.
If anything it will prevent so many late regular season games from being pointless trash.

Also relegation would rule. In European sports it makes the season exciting for bottom feeders.

 

[entremet]

Not fan of forced parity. The reason parity is more common in the NFL has to do with the violence of the game. Careers aren't long. QBs can have longer careers because they're protected heavily compared to other positions. And having a top tier QB seems to be the entry point to competing seriously consistently.

I would remove salary caps myself and go full Euro Football (Soccer) style for the NBA.

I think this unique obsession with parity in American Pro Sports comes from the fundamental myths we have about our nation. Work hard and you'll succeed. Discounting that some people are going to have it easier due to the environment, parentage, athletic gifts, etc. But we don't want to believe that as part of our cultural fabric, so everyone should be given the right to win. It's not realistic.

 

[Bessy67]

Just get rid of the lottery all together like other sports. And if you want to reduce tanking make the season shorter so teams aren't trying to purposely lose a bunch of meaningless games when they're out of contention midway through the season. I know they'll never make the season shorter because $$$$$$$$$ but that would be the real solution.

 

[Master Thespian]

Just get rid of the lottery all together like other sports. And if you want to reduce tanking make the season shorter so teams aren't trying to purposely lose a bunch of meaningless games when they're out of contention midway through the season.

I think you're forgetting something.

Spoiler

 

[FStubbs]

Every single sport has a bad parity problem
Stop it

Not like the NBA.

The Spurs went from 21 wins to 56 wins in Tim Duncan's first season for example.

BUT the year before when Robinson got hurt, they purged the roster and let an old Dominique Wilkins run wild.

I'm a Spurs fan, but it's an example of something that, except for the Suck for Luck year in the NFL, can't happen in another sport. Tanking got the Spurs 5 rings.

The reason the lottery was put in place to begin with was because Houston tanked in consecutive years to get Ralph Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon and the NBA was afraid that with Patrick Ewing in the '85 draft, the entire league apart from the Lakers,Celtics, and Rockets would tank.

 

[Caddywompus]

Not like the NBA.

The Spurs went from 21 wins to 56 wins in Tim Duncan's first season for example.

BUT the year before when Robinson got hurt, they purged the roster and let an old Dominique Wilkins run wild.

I'm a Spurs fan, but it's an example of something that, except for the Suck for Luck year in the NFL, can't happen in another sport. Tanking got the Spurs 5 rings.

Tanking also got Boston Chauncey Billups and Ron Mercer in that same draft. They had nearly double the odds compared to SA with two lotto picks something stupid like a 40% to land Duncan. And what did tanking get them?

 

[LionPride]

Not like the NBA.

The Spurs went from 21 wins to 56 wins in Tim Duncan's first season for example.

BUT the year before when Robinson got hurt, they purged the roster and let an old Dominique Wilkins run wild.

I'm a Spurs fan, but it's an example of something that, except for the Suck for Luck year in the NFL, can't happen in another sport. Tanking got the Spurs 5 rings.

The reason the lottery was put in place to begin with was because Houston tanked in consecutive years to get Ralph Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon and the NBA was afraid that with Patrick Ewing in the '85 draft, the entire league apart from the Lakers,Celtics, and Rockets would tank.

What does the Spurs tanking and ending up with the best PF ever have to do with teams and parity?
It's not their fault other teams are incompetent

 

[Cipherr]

A sport where there was a time period where ever final from 1980 to 1989 had the Celtics or Lakers

Michael Jordan or Hakeem won 8 titles from 1991-1998

Tim Duncan or Kobe/Shaq were involved in every title series from 1999-2005

And one of LeBron, Kobe, Tim, or Wade were involved with each series from 06-now

And y'all worry about parity because of the fucking lottery when this sport ain't had parity since the damn 70s

Parity has been a problem in the league for a long time. Guess we should give up on ever making it better; or better yet, pretend wholesale that this "Bad Parity" doesn't have a spectrum itself on which there is room for improvement!


Nah. If you want to sit around and insist people cant push for improvement because its never been good or perfect fine. Just don't expect that conversation to actually end when you storm out of the room in a huff.

The issues with parity are fucking terrible in the NBA and its getting worse. Something, possibly MANY things need to be done to start to make things better. Reminding everyone that its always been pretty bad doesn't really achieve anything really.

 

[LionPride]

Parity has been a problem in the league for a long time. Guess we should give up on ever making it better; or better yet, pretend wholesale that this "Bad Parity" doesn't have a spectrum itself on which there is room for improvement!


Nah. If you want to sit around and insist people cant push for improvement because its never been good or perfect fine. Just don't expect that conversation to actually end when you storm out of the room in a huff.

The issues with parity are fucking terrible in the NBA and its getting worse. Something, possibly MANY things need to be done to start to make things better. Reminding everyone that its always been pretty bad doesn't really achieve anything really.

How is it getting worse? Oh no the best team in the league that came together by good FA decisions and drafting, has the money to upgrade to a player who is the arguably the best scorer of all time and the other GMs and Owners are incompetent as fuck/cheap as fuck/have not made good long term decisions and none of this is hurting the league at all because the talent is at a level it has never been at before because of the depth of talent at every position.

And when most of the complaints are parity doesn't exist anymore, instead of parity doesn't exist period, it's weird because parity and the NBA ain't a thing

 

[Cipherr]

How is it getting worse? Oh no the best team in the league that came together by good FA decisions and drafting, has the money to upgrade to a player who is the arguably the best scorer of all time and the other GMs and Owners are incompetent as fuck/cheap as fuck/have not made good long term decisions and none of this is hurting the league at all because the talent is at a level it has never been at before because of the depth of talent at every position.

And when most of the complaints are parity doesn't exist anymore, instead of parity doesn't exist period, it's weird because parity and the NBA ain't a thing

Yeah, I figured as much. A strong desire to discuss ancillary shit, but absolutely zero response to the actual core of the argument/discussion: Which is we should all desire and champion any push that aims to improve parity in the NBA.

I mean, Im not trying to be disrespectful, but if you want to read about parity in the league you can go and do that without me. Im purely all about improving parity in the league because it is bad, and has been bad for a long time. Im not interested in conveniently skewing the conversation away from that focal point, and into shit that doesn't really matter.

Parity is a problem, it needs to get better. I and others are going to continue to be vocal about it. And anyone that looks to shout it down is a fool in my eyes.

 

[diehard]

How is it getting worse? Oh no the best team in the league that came together by good FA decisions and drafting, has the money to upgrade to a player who is the arguably the best scorer of all time and the other GMs and Owners are incompetent as fuck/cheap as fuck/have not made good long term decisions and none of this is hurting the league at all because the talent is at a level it has never been at before because of the depth of talent at every position.

And when most of the complaints are parity doesn't exist anymore, instead of parity doesn't exist period, it's weird because parity and the NBA ain't a thing

Yes its clearly all about GM and owner decisions, thats why all these smartly run small market teams are swimming in rings (sans Spurs).

 

[LionPride]

Yeah, I figured as much. A strong desire to discuss ancillary shit, but absolutely zero response to the actual core of the argument/discussion: Which is we should all desire and champion any push that aims to improve parity in the NBA.

I mean, Im not trying to be disrespectful, but if you want to read about parity in the league you can go and do that without me. Im purely all about improving parity in the league because it is bad, and had been bad for a long time. Im not interested in conveniently skewing the conversation away from that focal point, and into shit that doesn't really matter.

Parity is a problem, it needs to get better. I and others are going to continue to be vocal about it. And anyone that looks to shout it down is a fool in my eyes.

Well I guess Imma fool because I love, adore the product as it is. Would it be nice to see different teams face off in the finals every now and then? Sure, but I love seeing the best teams face off for 5-7 games. And I have 2,460 games to watch in the regular season with a depth of talent. Parity has not been something I've viewed as an issue, one because it really doesn't matter, but also because the fixes are things I do not feel are likely to happen soon.

 

[Caddywompus]

Parity has been a problem in the league for a long time. Guess we should give up on ever making it better; or better yet, pretend wholesale that this "Bad Parity" doesn't have a spectrum itself on which there is room for improvement!


Nah. If you want to sit around and insist people cant push for improvement because its never been good or perfect fine. Just don't expect that conversation to actually end when you storm out of the room in a huff.

The issues with parity are fucking terrible in the NBA and its getting worse. Something, possibly MANY things need to be done to start to make things better. Reminding everyone that its always been pretty bad doesn't really achieve anything really.

It's going to be very difficult for anyone to replicate the parity GS has created and it has nothing to do with how lotto picks are distributed.

Extend the rookie contract of a future MVP to an incredibly cheap deal because of injuries. Now you have injury pronies like Parker and Embiid expecting Max deals.

Draft a All-star Defensive Player of the Year in the 2nd rd. How often do 2nd rd picks become all-stars? Isaiah Thomas, Gasol, Gino, um .... Gilbert Arenas? I'm sure there are more but you get the idea.

Draft a third all-star all while your most expensive players are Bogut and Iggy. So when the salary cap goes up after the new broadcast deal they now have the cap space to sign a max FA which happens to be when Durant's contract is up. The timing was perfect. Now you can extend your 4 All-stars and pay the luxary tax which is the steep price of an NBA championship per year.

 

[friskykillface]

Cavs sweatn'

 

[Caddywompus]

Cavs sweatn'

I knew Danny had inside info on the declining value of the BKN pick, I just couldn't prove it.

 

[diehard]

It's going to be very difficult for anyone to replicate the parity GS has created and it has nothing to do with how lotto picks are distributed.

Extend the rookie contract of a future MVP to an incredibly cheap deal because of injuries. Now you have injury pronies like Parker and Embiid expecting Max deals.

Draft a All-star Defensive Player of the Year in the 2nd rd. How often do 2nd rd picks become all-stars? Isaiah Thomas, Gasol, Gino, um .... Gilbert Arenas? I'm sure there are more but you get the idea.

Draft a third all-star all while your most expensive players are Bogut and Iggy. So when the salary cap goes up after the new broadcast deal they now have the cap space to sign a max FA which happens to be when Durant's contract is up. The timing was perfect. Now you can extend your 4 All-stars and pay the luxary tax which is the steep price of an NBA championship per year.

You also forgot where they tanked like crazy to retain their pick for Barnes, and also won the coin flip.