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Working Designs is a goner.........
- Thread starter Tenacious-V
- Start date
Link
The Autumn Wind
Hmm...
http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?p=1128502&highlight=stillborn#post1128502
Somehow, I don't think it would have mattered when the DS came out, according to Vic. What was too late was his realization of what a stupid view he had on the matter.vireland on 03-17-2005 said:
I have been
There is a lot of really poor games in west (and lot of them dressed as they were good), I know because I have played lot of them in this years. But I wouln´t go so far as saying "what market has more shitty games", because that would require a lot of work.How is that is so unreasonable to think that if SCEA wouldn´t have put unnecesary difficulties, things could have been different?.
I respect a lot your opinion, I could accept they are closed because their own mistakes. But we´ll never know what would have happened if they could have released their games without problems. And that question will keep me pointing at SCEA as responsible of this.
MattHelgeson
Member
That's sad...Working Designs was sort of the last of a dying breed, the mom and pop publisher....I guess those days are done now.
Maybe I´m getting a little inquisitorial here... I use to get upset when a small company closes.
Ferricides makes a great point in his blog commentaries (hope is ok I bring them here):
I don´t know, at one size I think SCEA should do what others divisions do. PS2 is leader in Europe and Japan, I don´t see a factual point that validates what SCEA does.
But it´s their product afterall, they will manage it as they want and it´s certain that everyone should know how it works to get an approval.
At the end is a shame. I didn´t know about Vic (I have read pretty extreme commentaries this days, he seems one of that person that you love or hate), but I knew the work of Working Design and I´m pretty sure we, as gamers, are a little more poor because of this.
Ferricides makes a great point in his blog commentaries (hope is ok I bring them here):
I don´t know, at one size I think SCEA should do what others divisions do. PS2 is leader in Europe and Japan, I don´t see a factual point that validates what SCEA does.
But it´s their product afterall, they will manage it as they want and it´s certain that everyone should know how it works to get an approval.
At the end is a shame. I didn´t know about Vic (I have read pretty extreme commentaries this days, he seems one of that person that you love or hate), but I knew the work of Working Design and I´m pretty sure we, as gamers, are a little more poor because of this.
Shouta
Member
The End said:
Yeah, that's probably the reasoning but, let's be honest here, packing in a 50-60 hour RPG (yes, the original GL is that long) as a bonus feature is an outright stupid idea =P.
Link said:
I think the realization was the fact that the DS could be a viable system for their games and by the time it did have the games, it was too late for WD to jump on the bandwagon. I still don't think he likes the DS like he does the PSP but now the DS has games he can play. :lol
Just to respond to some of ferricide's points in his blog (cause I don't do anything on 1up)
ferricide said:
Well, ugly I can agree with (at least for Growlanser II-IV, the original is actually a really nice looking game) and neither Growlanser II or III were very long (Growlanser I and IV are both 50-60 hour games btw), they are definitely deep in terms of gameplay. They may not have the "zomg, customization" schemes of stuff like NIS grinds but the gameplay always constantly required thinking and planning. Never did you have to level to beat a map, just improve your strategies.
ferricide said:
I agree with throwing money down the toilet for Goemon but not on Growlanser. They could've easily made a better profit off of that if they hadn't been forced to do the bundle and considering how well the game did, I would assume that selling both games separately would've been a damn good investment for WD. I hate to be a broken record but WD had Growlanser II done like a year to a year and a half prior to the game's release (as I recall, Travis got a copy of the game to review a long time ago prior to the game being forced to be bundled) and was set to release it until Sony gave them the cockblock.
Oh and duckroll, .hack was Bandai =P.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
Vic is kind of a dick, sucks that WD is gone but man that guy stirred up some controversy in his day.
D
Deleted member 284
Unconfirmed Member
Never really got any of WD's games, but I think that it's really sad that they are closing shop (as evidenced by the deserving love-in, seen in this thread). But really, that lack of forsight is really biting him in the ass, right now. I do hope that Vic and Co. bounce back and realize that there are other options in the niche arena. Cause the hardcore gamers (WD's audience imho) will go to any platform within reason.Link said:
Er... but most of those games have been publicly known for well over a year. It's been clear since 2004 that DS was getting top JP support loaded with RPGs... Vic's DS apathy was just another case of him letting his personal preferences take precedence over any solid business sense. He might've realized DS' viability too late, but the rest of industry saw it from day one.Shouta said:
very late to the thread, and it's sad to see WD gone for western gamers but Vic ran the company like more of a fanboy than a CEO/businessman...
it's frikin ironic that someone who threw a public hissy fit at Sega (dumb to burn bridges) to cozy up to Sony is now repeating such badmouthing of Sony while pinning their hopes on 360 for jRPGs. Uh.
does this guy comprehend the handheld market?
it's frikin ironic that someone who threw a public hissy fit at Sega (dumb to burn bridges) to cozy up to Sony is now repeating such badmouthing of Sony while pinning their hopes on 360 for jRPGs. Uh.
does this guy comprehend the handheld market?
Shouta
Member
jarrod said:
I haven't seen any RPGs on the DS that Vic would like and nab to bring over here until recently. Hell, even ignoring whether or not Vic would like the game, name 5 DS RPGs from 2004 that WD could've brought over and had the chance to bring over (as in, it's not owned by another company and etc. Frankly, even I didn't think the DS would get great support in 2004 and it hasn't been until recently that it did.
aft. he should have learned from sega. in a market where number 1 CAN change from generation to generation, and even repeat itself, it is bad to burn bridges. if WD comes back from the grave and Sonyis still number 1, it would be silly to cause them to have it out for you.chinch said:
Shouta said:
There's a bunch of wacky Japanese shit they could've brought over.
Band of Brothers, Wizardry, etc.
I'm sure stuff like Doshin the Giant, Nintendo Puzzle Collection, Starfi, Magical Vacation, and other games that westerners haven't seen would've at least sold enough to justify it.
Sorry, but if you're saying there was nothing else viable on any other platform for WD to get in the four years of this console generation then that's pretty pathetic.
GitarooMan
Member
Hero said:
You actually think Nintendo would let WD publish Nintendo Puzzle Collection or Starfi or Doshin? I think a lot of people think that any game not released in the US automatically could have been brought over by WD. A lot of companies don't want to sell those publishing rights.
Shouta
Member
Hero said:
Gitarooman brings up a good point. Just because it's released in Japan doesn't mean it'll be a lock to bring over to America. Not every company will be so willing.
That aside, I was talking about the DS last year and it was in response to jarrod's comment. So how about answering my query =P.
Not stuff released in 2004, but announced. Games like Goemon DS, Lunar DS, Monster Summoner 2, Spectral Force, Tengai Makyo, Vandal-Hearts, Shin Megami Tensei DS, etc... DS had well over 100 3rd party Japanese games announced in 2004. That's more than Saturn or PS2 when WD formally committed support to those machines.Shouta said:
The signs were everywhere that DS was going to be heavy with JP support. Vic though felt the platform was "stillborn" even as late as March 2005. Again, it wasn't that DS suddenly got all this amazing JP support from out of nowhere in the past 6 months... most of these games were announced in fall 2004 even. It's just that now Vic seems to have admitted an error in judgement.
I'm not saying it would've been a guarentee, but the fact they they spent years trying to get Goemon PS2, which is supposed to be a piece of shit anyway, they could've at least TRIED to get something else accomplished.
If they said 'Nintendo wouldn't let us get X, Y, or Z' I would've been a bit more sympathetic, but the fact that Cubivore was published by Atlus here in the States let's me believe that someone could've done the same with Doshin. In fact, if Cubivore had sold well I'm sure Atlus would've tried getting that as well. Let's not forget that Animal Crossing sold phenomally here considering it was an unproven franchise here and the graphics were so against it.
I mean, hell, with the hard on he had for Goemon you'd think he might try to go for Goemon 1+2 on GBA or Goemon DS, but apparently the media which takes slightly longer to produce makes not even attempting it the better choice here. That's what I don't understand, hardly releasing any games at all and yet complaining that if they order too few it takes a little longer to get more to stores. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't selling a few of something over a long period of time better than selling nothing at all?
If they said 'Nintendo wouldn't let us get X, Y, or Z' I would've been a bit more sympathetic, but the fact that Cubivore was published by Atlus here in the States let's me believe that someone could've done the same with Doshin. In fact, if Cubivore had sold well I'm sure Atlus would've tried getting that as well. Let's not forget that Animal Crossing sold phenomally here considering it was an unproven franchise here and the graphics were so against it.
I mean, hell, with the hard on he had for Goemon you'd think he might try to go for Goemon 1+2 on GBA or Goemon DS, but apparently the media which takes slightly longer to produce makes not even attempting it the better choice here. That's what I don't understand, hardly releasing any games at all and yet complaining that if they order too few it takes a little longer to get more to stores. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't selling a few of something over a long period of time better than selling nothing at all?
I suspect the reason they fought so hard for Growlancer and Goemon is, given that they had a good relationship with SCEA at the time and never had any trouble getting their previous titles approved, they probably didn't bother to get the green light before investing a lot of time and money into both projects. By the time those two titles "hit the wall" so to speak, they were too committed to back out.
Christopher
BDE (Big Dad Energy)
No one can doubt the quality that was the Lunar series, I still believe that the two games on the Playstation are some of the finest I've played in a long time. The voices, dialog, and atmosphere made it seem almost perfect.
I still don't know why the just didn't cash in on Lunar GBA. However, now knowing in cement that we won't see another incarnation by them with the voice cast and direction is very sad.
Goodbye Working Designs.
I still don't know why the just didn't cash in on Lunar GBA. However, now knowing in cement that we won't see another incarnation by them with the voice cast and direction is very sad.
Goodbye Working Designs.
I remember reading a news report once, saying that Working Designs was looking to get "Phantom Dust" on the Xbox, but they were outbid.Hero said:
How many other attempts did WD try? Just because we never hear of them, it doesn't mean they don't exist.
I'm sure if we took a look at Vic's list of games that he wanted to be doing, we could've found ones father down that might've stood a better chance of saving the company, but that's automatically true, since WD is dead.
The game got bad reviews in Japan, and I think Vic said that GameArts even lost money on it, ensuring that there wasn't going to be a Lunar 2 GBA (not even if it did well in America).Biohazard said:
Combined with Vic's belief that the GBA was too crowded, he skipped it and gave Ubisoft his blessing (and made it so GameArts doesn't even have to ask for his blessing anymore).
He ate crow when it exceeded Ubisoft's expectations.
Working Designs had since sold the U.S. trademark to Lunar to Game Arts.Biohazard said:
Even if Working Designs wanted to localize and/or publish Lunar Legend, and assuming its relationship with Game Arts hadn't completely soured thanks to it taking way too long on previous games, and Working Designs had the financial resources to publish ROM cartridge-based games, a larger publisher would have outbid it.
In other words, Ubisoft is a big company, has a good relationship with Game Arts, and can localize games in a reasonable amount of time.
I was friendly with Vic and occasionally e-mailed him back when I was posting on Usenet in rec.games.video.sega and rec.games.video.sony. He even sent me a review copy of Arc the Lad Collection and a modded PSX to play it on months before the game was actually released (and for my 'trouble' of playing it through, sent me an official copy, mouse pad, etc.).
That said, WD's claim that "We're nothing without you!" and its implication that WD was a company that existed solely to satisfy fans, was quite simply not true. Working Designs did not translate games to please fans. It translated games to please Victor Ireland. That is why games like Silhouette Mirage were "tweaked" for their US release. That is why Vic refused to give players the option to switch between english and japanese voices in their RPGs. The games were translated and tailored to his personal tastes. Sometimes this was a good thing - the gorgeous packaging, the nice extras and bonus stickers and items; sometimes it was a bad thing - the non-professional dub voice acting, the sometimes VERY inaccurate translations, the childish jokes....
I won't miss Working Designs as much as I would have ten years ago - not because I didn't enjoy the games they translated, but because their output had slowed down so tremendously these past few years. I'm really sorry about what's happened to Victor Ireland and his company, and I do hope that he'll land on his feet. As gamers, though, we won't be missing out on much - there are a lot of companies in the US today that are picking up the type of niche titles that used to be WD's exclusive domain, and are providing more accurate translations and releasing them in a more timely manner, to boot.
That said, WD's claim that "We're nothing without you!" and its implication that WD was a company that existed solely to satisfy fans, was quite simply not true. Working Designs did not translate games to please fans. It translated games to please Victor Ireland. That is why games like Silhouette Mirage were "tweaked" for their US release. That is why Vic refused to give players the option to switch between english and japanese voices in their RPGs. The games were translated and tailored to his personal tastes. Sometimes this was a good thing - the gorgeous packaging, the nice extras and bonus stickers and items; sometimes it was a bad thing - the non-professional dub voice acting, the sometimes VERY inaccurate translations, the childish jokes....
I won't miss Working Designs as much as I would have ten years ago - not because I didn't enjoy the games they translated, but because their output had slowed down so tremendously these past few years. I'm really sorry about what's happened to Victor Ireland and his company, and I do hope that he'll land on his feet. As gamers, though, we won't be missing out on much - there are a lot of companies in the US today that are picking up the type of niche titles that used to be WD's exclusive domain, and are providing more accurate translations and releasing them in a more timely manner, to boot.
And for a lot of people who've been praising the care they put into localization and translating...
WD's translation staff, according to Zach Meston, was composed of a class of college students who were handed game scripts and then had to translate them as part of their Japanese class, leading to sometimes incomprehensible, bizarre translations that then had to be rewritten completely by people like Meston and Ireland, who often had to make educated guesses as to what characters were even saying (in the case of the townspeople dialogue, the translations were often thrown out completely and new dialogue was written from scratch - thus all the "humorous" townspeople's dialogue).
WD's translation staff, according to Zach Meston, was composed of a class of college students who were handed game scripts and then had to translate them as part of their Japanese class, leading to sometimes incomprehensible, bizarre translations that then had to be rewritten completely by people like Meston and Ireland, who often had to make educated guesses as to what characters were even saying (in the case of the townspeople dialogue, the translations were often thrown out completely and new dialogue was written from scratch - thus all the "humorous" townspeople's dialogue).
Christopher
BDE (Big Dad Energy)
Who cares if the translations weren't directly what the japanese were saying...? I sure don't. As long as the story was told smoothly and the dialog worked with the characters, it doesn't matter. It's called localization for a reason. I suppose you just have to like things (such as myself) catered to the American audience so they can enjoy it as well.
I agree with you regarding localizations, but what WD did was not localization - it was gutting the original games of their text and almost completely re-writing it.
As a counter-example - Vagrant Story had a great localization. Final Fantasy X-2 had a great localization. Grandia 2 had a great localization. Disgaea had a great localization. In all those games, the dialogue sounded natural enough that you never thought you were reading a translation.
Meanwhile Lunar 1 and 2 had copious amounts of Clinton, breast, and gay jokes. Fart sound effects added when the hermit inventor Myght appears in Lunar 1. None of which were in the original Japanese version, all of which were really, really jarring when you're trying to get wrapped up in a fantasy world.
They were getting better about this sort of thing in their later games (Arc the Lad/Growlanser II and III), however.
As a counter-example - Vagrant Story had a great localization. Final Fantasy X-2 had a great localization. Grandia 2 had a great localization. Disgaea had a great localization. In all those games, the dialogue sounded natural enough that you never thought you were reading a translation.
Meanwhile Lunar 1 and 2 had copious amounts of Clinton, breast, and gay jokes. Fart sound effects added when the hermit inventor Myght appears in Lunar 1. None of which were in the original Japanese version, all of which were really, really jarring when you're trying to get wrapped up in a fantasy world.
They were getting better about this sort of thing in their later games (Arc the Lad/Growlanser II and III), however.
There was a lot of hate and bile directed at WD in general and Victor Ireland in specific in those Usenet boards back in the day - and he liked to goad people into attacking him so he could then mock them (which made for some rather funny situations).
My feelings towards WD are mixed. Certainly they helped usher in the era of niche games gaining wider acceptance in the US, but then the company ironically got shut out of the niche it helped create 'cuz it got too popular, and other people were doing WD's job better than WD used to do it (except for the packaging...I will always give WD mad props for their packaging).
Their translations which played really fast and loose with the intent of the original text, the awful dubbing (I don't care that Jenny Stigile was cute - she was NOT a professional singer, and you could tell), the gameplay "tweaks" which sometimes ruined games, and the CONSTANT delays...these are the things about Working Designs that I will not miss at all.
The fact that the company president was easily accessible, the fact that they DID take into account some fans' requests (like the ability to turn off voices in battle in Lunar 2, requested by someone on the WD boards), the sometimes really cool extras (especially the Ghaleon punching puppet - too bad the Alex punching puppet never materialized!)...these things I will miss, and I don't think anybody else in the US side of the game industry will ever do any of these things quite as well as WD did.
My feelings towards WD are mixed. Certainly they helped usher in the era of niche games gaining wider acceptance in the US, but then the company ironically got shut out of the niche it helped create 'cuz it got too popular, and other people were doing WD's job better than WD used to do it (except for the packaging...I will always give WD mad props for their packaging).
Their translations which played really fast and loose with the intent of the original text, the awful dubbing (I don't care that Jenny Stigile was cute - she was NOT a professional singer, and you could tell), the gameplay "tweaks" which sometimes ruined games, and the CONSTANT delays...these are the things about Working Designs that I will not miss at all.
The fact that the company president was easily accessible, the fact that they DID take into account some fans' requests (like the ability to turn off voices in battle in Lunar 2, requested by someone on the WD boards), the sometimes really cool extras (especially the Ghaleon punching puppet - too bad the Alex punching puppet never materialized!)...these things I will miss, and I don't think anybody else in the US side of the game industry will ever do any of these things quite as well as WD did.
ruby_onix said:
If Vic/WD tried to get other games that were on other platforms then what he has said in posts and interviews doesn't match that. The way he makes it seem is that he didn't even consider any other platform, which is ridiculous when you think of how small a company they are.
Did Lunar GBA really sell that well? I never noticed the numbers it was doing..
Christopher
BDE (Big Dad Energy)
Ichirou_Oogami said:
Fair Deal, I thought you were one of the Japanese puriest who believed that nothing could stand up to the oringal voices...and urge to keep the Japanese voices over the english on all ocasions. As much as I would love to defend WD, the Myght thing even had me cringing, the fart joke was wayyyy out of place there.
Well, I would have liked the option to choose Japanese or English voices, but so few games give you that choice that I'm not going to hold it against WD that they didn't want to do that.
For me, a good localization is one that preserves the spirit of the game, and makes you feel the same way the Japanese player did when s/he was playing the game. That means that the translation has to sound very natural - not stilted or forced. WD was good at that. It also means you have to keep the original tone of the dialogue and script. WD was not so good at that.
What they did to joke-ify the games...that really bothered me. But they were getting mostly better about it, thankfully. Would have liked to have seen them translate Growlanser IV and a few other RPGs for the PS2.
For me, a good localization is one that preserves the spirit of the game, and makes you feel the same way the Japanese player did when s/he was playing the game. That means that the translation has to sound very natural - not stilted or forced. WD was good at that. It also means you have to keep the original tone of the dialogue and script. WD was not so good at that.
What they did to joke-ify the games...that really bothered me. But they were getting mostly better about it, thankfully. Would have liked to have seen them translate Growlanser IV and a few other RPGs for the PS2.
I'm not sure how that's possible given that GameArts just licensed out the IP. They had basically nothing to do with Lunar Legend (or any of the other remakes actually).... there was no investment to lose for them.ruby_onix said:
I don't think it was so much WD's goodwill as the total detererioration of their relationship with GameArts. I'm also guessing Vic gave Ubi his "blessing" only after they paid him to use WD's specific name/town translations in Legend.ruby_onix said:
Drinky Crow
Banned
While I like Vic and the spirit of WD, and have enjoyed their more liberal localization style, blaming SCEA for WD's demise is a bit stupid. WD killed WD, by:
1) picking really mediocre games to localize. This is the big one. The last truly great game they brought over was Alundra; the rest were dated and second rate, by and large. Come on; the world didn't need the PS2 Goemon given the amount of work necessary to "fix" it; the Growlansers were homely fluff not worth 2+ years of localization effort (any of the other houses could have knocked out a functional translaiton MUCH quicker); and WD never published an honestly GREAT shooter -- at best they were mediocre ports of good shooters (Thunder Force V), just plain mediocre (Raystorm and Raycrisis), or legitimately awful (Silpheed).
1b) Not recognizing that when they got competition, people wouldn't turn out for mediocre Japanese content. Crap like Shining Wisdom and Albert Odyssey got a pass by fans back in the Saturn era because localized RPGs were a novelty. Now that we have Atlus/NI/S-E/Konami and startups like XSEED knocking out content at thrice the speed, and with quality localiztion efforts, we don't hafta settle for middle-tier RPGs. Great localizations can't compensate for lousy battle systems, and stellar art doesn't fix lengthy load times or choppy/glitchy/lo-fi performance. Our gaing dollars went to BETTER GAMES from FASTER COMPANIES.
2) taking FOR FUCKING EVER to localize games. The added tchotchkes and "polished" dialogue apparently tacked a year to two years on every release, and given that the games they were delaying were often homely and mediocre, "doing it for the fans" seems like an excuse, not a motto. WD was SLOW, and the payoff almost never justified the massive delays. WD can say that the folks who agree with me "aren't fans", but many of us WERE once of a time.
I don't really miss WD, because we have companies that will provide us with the content WD did, with good translations and at two to three times the speed.
Again, I respect a lot of what Vic and Crew did; they uniformly improved the standard for the localization of gaming content overall here in the States, and that deserves a big ol' page in the annals of Western gaming history. But there's also a lot of hubris, excuses, and generally bad business savvy in the WD story as well, and it's those instances that will plot their declining years.
1) picking really mediocre games to localize. This is the big one. The last truly great game they brought over was Alundra; the rest were dated and second rate, by and large. Come on; the world didn't need the PS2 Goemon given the amount of work necessary to "fix" it; the Growlansers were homely fluff not worth 2+ years of localization effort (any of the other houses could have knocked out a functional translaiton MUCH quicker); and WD never published an honestly GREAT shooter -- at best they were mediocre ports of good shooters (Thunder Force V), just plain mediocre (Raystorm and Raycrisis), or legitimately awful (Silpheed).
1b) Not recognizing that when they got competition, people wouldn't turn out for mediocre Japanese content. Crap like Shining Wisdom and Albert Odyssey got a pass by fans back in the Saturn era because localized RPGs were a novelty. Now that we have Atlus/NI/S-E/Konami and startups like XSEED knocking out content at thrice the speed, and with quality localiztion efforts, we don't hafta settle for middle-tier RPGs. Great localizations can't compensate for lousy battle systems, and stellar art doesn't fix lengthy load times or choppy/glitchy/lo-fi performance. Our gaing dollars went to BETTER GAMES from FASTER COMPANIES.
2) taking FOR FUCKING EVER to localize games. The added tchotchkes and "polished" dialogue apparently tacked a year to two years on every release, and given that the games they were delaying were often homely and mediocre, "doing it for the fans" seems like an excuse, not a motto. WD was SLOW, and the payoff almost never justified the massive delays. WD can say that the folks who agree with me "aren't fans", but many of us WERE once of a time.
I don't really miss WD, because we have companies that will provide us with the content WD did, with good translations and at two to three times the speed.
Again, I respect a lot of what Vic and Crew did; they uniformly improved the standard for the localization of gaming content overall here in the States, and that deserves a big ol' page in the annals of Western gaming history. But there's also a lot of hubris, excuses, and generally bad business savvy in the WD story as well, and it's those instances that will plot their declining years.
Drinky Crow
Banned
And as Vic indicated in the interview, maybe they shoulda just cut-and-run on it. I know you liked Growlanser and all, but I coulda lived without it if it meant WD would be around to release more deserving titles.
Shouta
Member
Drinky Crow said:
Just because they could've cut-and-run on it doesn't mean they're entirely at fault for its slow release. I'm just saying that you can't attribute Growlanser's 2 year release cycle on the usual internal WD spiel. It was actually a case of WD getting screwed by SCEA. We really don't know for sure about other instances but Growlanser was a pretty obvious case.
Personally, if I wouldn't mind if they had cut-and-run on it either if it meant more titles from them since I've played all four games in Japanese. I do think they're games that deserve to be brought over but that feeling is more directed towards Growlanser I and IV.
duckroll said:
Teehee. It's a hell of a lot more interesting and fresh than f.ex. Nocturne, which people here seem hell bent on proclaiming the second coming of Christ. Point me to another JRPG this generation that has done RTS style combat. None. That's fresh to me. The whole game is different from anything else I've played this generation. That's fresh to me.
Give us your freshest JRPG from this gen and lets have at it, then. English release, please.
Edit: On second thought, don't bother. We'll likely disagree regardless.
Drinky Crow
Banned
Shouta, regardless, my point was that had they sought after a game of better quality than Growlanser 2/3 with at LEAST less painfully dated graphics, they might not have HAD a snafu with SCEA. G2 and 3 are really, really ugly games that, high-resolution portraits aside, could have been done on a PSOne. Knowing that SCEA has often proven rather intractable about full price releases of lo-fi games, why Vic continued to grind away at it is beyond me -- sure, it's "for the fans" he might argue, but wouldn't the fans be served with better games? No matter how you cut it, G2 and 3 are simple, shallow games with rudimentary graphics, redeemed only somewhat by good map design and competent AI. There had to be better options.
Shouta
Member
Drinky Crow said:
That boils down to Vic's stubborn attitude to go for the stuff he likes. I agree with that and I don't think anyone will disagree with you on that point. I was just refuting the claim you made that Growlanser was a slow release because of WD's usual happenings.
It's funny you mention being done on a PSOne because I think the first Growlanser game is better looking than II-IV. Why they didn't go with the same style of graphics for the games after the first one escapes me (although I do have a few theories). Even if the graphics are lo-fi, I really don't see the reasoning SCEA had to go apeshit on WD for Growlanser when they let stuff like Stella Deus, Atelier Iris, or even Shining Tears through the gates at full price.
Drinky Crow said:
I don't consider either game shallow, perhaps lacking, but far from shallow. I could get into why but I think that's best saved for another thread. I mean, you know that we don't share the same opinion on what's shallow and what's deep.
Drinky Crow
Banned
SCEA rejected it because both games look BAD when compared to 640x480 16-bit color titles like Stella Deus and Atelier Iris. G2/G3 are 320x240, use 8-bit color, have terrible animation and lame FMV effects. They look like last-gen 2D, and mediocre last-gen 2D at that.
As for depth; well, any game can be argued as deep given a certain perspective, but the point remains that G2/G3 had few customization options or branches for characters, and that the maps were largely linear tactical puzzles. Shallow doesn't make it bad -- and nor does depth have anything to do with challenge -- but neither G2 nor G3 were eminently replayable games.
As for depth; well, any game can be argued as deep given a certain perspective, but the point remains that G2/G3 had few customization options or branches for characters, and that the maps were largely linear tactical puzzles. Shallow doesn't make it bad -- and nor does depth have anything to do with challenge -- but neither G2 nor G3 were eminently replayable games.