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[GLopez12]

I don't really understand why normal modes have to be hard. Good guilds plow through the normal modes anyway and have challenge in heroics. All making normal modes hard seems to do is hurt casuals.

 

[LowParry]

I don't really understand why normal modes have to be hard. Good guilds plow through the normal modes anyway and have challenge in heroics. All making normal modes hard seems to do is hurt casuals.

Have you seen what 4.2 is doing? Casuals have it pretty damn easy.

 

[GLopez12]

They still won't be able to see normal Firelands, though.

I think normal modes should be possible to PUG and heroics should require guild groups.

I like how the heroic dungeons and heroic raids are really, really challenging at the right item levels, but I just don't get why normal modes have to be a hard for casuals, especially if the guilds that actually care about difficulty plow through that content anyway.

It doesn't have to be easy enough that the entire normal content is an absolute joke that a raid group could zombie through, but making the first three or so bosses possible to PUG would be pretty nice. It would at least bring PUGs back, which seem to be fairly dead in this day and age.

Another thing I would do if I were Blizzard is make all gear from normal modes and past tiers of PVE blue and make only the heroic raiding gear epic. Going by iLvl has devalues the actual epicness of epic gear as the expansion goes on, and that's something that should be addressed so really skilled raiders can actually differentiate themselves.

 

[wonderdung]

It doesn't have to be easy enough that the entire normal content is an absolute joke that a raid group could zombie through, but making the first three or so bosses possible to PUG would be pretty nice. It would at least bring PUGs back, which seem to be fairly dead in this day and age.

This kind of thing really depends a lot on your server. I haven't tried to PUG in a long time but I wouldn't be surprised if there are pugs on my server that go 12/12 with a heroic Halfus kill.

I remember when I switched servers back in TBC I was amazed that on the server I was switching to people were pugging Gruul and Magtheridon. That was content that even the "hardcore" guilds on my old server were struggling with (as sad as it sounds).

Anyway, my current server is pretty average as far as server-wide PVE ranking and we have a full page of guilds at 1/13 or further on wowprogress. I'd be guessing, but I think this makes this raid tier the easiest or most accessible one yet. Makes the nerfs that much more... unexpected.

 

[Entropia]

They still won't be able to see normal Firelands, though.

I think normal modes should be possible to PUG and heroics should require guild groups.

I like how the heroic dungeons and heroic raids are really, really challenging at the right item levels, but I just don't get why normal modes have to be a hard for casuals, especially if the guilds that actually care about difficulty plow through that content anyway.

It doesn't have to be easy enough that the entire normal content is an absolute joke that a raid group could zombie through, but making the first three or so bosses possible to PUG would be pretty nice. It would at least bring PUGs back, which seem to be fairly dead in this day and age.

Another thing I would do if I were Blizzard is make all gear from normal modes and past tiers of PVE blue and make only the heroic raiding gear epic. Going by iLvl has devalues the actual epicness of epic gear as the expansion goes on, and that's something that should be addressed so really skilled raiders can actually differentiate themselves.

Agree with you on every point. I have less desire to play the game now because I have nothing to do outside of raiding with my guild. In Wrath I used to like playing an alt and pugging Naxx or TOC. Now if I want to raid on an alt I have to pray my guild can get the people together. It also ruins the server community too. I've met a lot of friends from pugging on my alts. If a raid has 6 bosses, I would be fine if 4 of those were easily puggable while the last two needed a very co-ordinated/guild group.

I thought I saw a post from Blizzard before Cata that they wanted people that raid to wear epics, and people that do dungeons to be in blues. Well 4.1 came out, that didn't last long. And like you said, people are putting a value on themselves with iLvls. It also kind of ruins gear progression, you look at an item that's 353 and a potential upgrade thats 359 - "That doesn't seem like much of an upgrade!".

It's fine that Blizzard is retroactively nerfing the raid content so that casuals can see it. From the eyes of a casual that's great that they can see the content, but I'm sure that they'd much rather be able to see it when the content is current.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

They still won't be able to see normal Firelands, though.

I think normal modes should be possible to PUG and heroics should require guild groups.

I like how the heroic dungeons and heroic raids are really, really challenging at the right item levels, but I just don't get why normal modes have to be a hard for casuals, especially if the guilds that actually care about difficulty plow through that content anyway.

It doesn't have to be easy enough that the entire normal content is an absolute joke that a raid group could zombie through, but making the first three or so bosses possible to PUG would be pretty nice. It would at least bring PUGs back, which seem to be fairly dead in this day and age.

Another thing I would do if I were Blizzard is make all gear from normal modes and past tiers of PVE blue and make only the heroic raiding gear epic. Going by iLvl has devalues the actual epicness of epic gear as the expansion goes on, and that's something that should be addressed so really skilled raiders can actually differentiate themselves.

The last thing would have to accompany the earlier points. Why should a normal mode raiding guild have the same color as a lot of lowbies?

They made tier 1 heroic blue for a reason.

IIRC they said they'd be interested in letting people use dungeon finder for raids if it could ever work out, so it'd be interesting to do that and bump normal modes down to blue.

 

[Swag]

Anyway, my current server is pretty average as far as server-wide PVE ranking and we have a full page of guilds at 1/13 or further on wowprogress. I'd be guessing, but I think this makes this raid tier the easiest or most accessible one yet. Makes the nerfs that much more... unexpected.

I need to transfer to one of these servers on my main, so I can get those realm first feats / titles. Is there any way to filter on Wowprogress for servers with shitty progression?

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

I need to transfer to one of these servers on my main, so I can get those realm first feats / titles. Is there any way to filter on Wowprogress for servers with shitty progression?

There are no realm first feats/titles.

 

[Bisnic]

I'd be guessing, but I think this makes this raid tier the easiest or most accessible one yet. Makes the nerfs that much more... unexpected.

Eh? I think that you should give this title to TOC or Icecrown... not the current raid tier.
It's nowhere as easy or accessible as these 2 were.

 

[Swag]

There are no realm first feats/titles.

Doesn't it list your name in the guild realm first feat when you highlight the achievement point amount?

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

Doesn't it list your name in the guild realm first feat when you highlight the achievement point amount?

I don't think so.

 

[wonderdung]

I need to transfer to one of these servers on my main, so I can get those realm first feats / titles. Is there any way to filter on Wowprogress for servers with shitty progression?

US servers ordered by rank: http://www.wowprogress.com/realms/rank/us

I was on #122 previously but it had a dead/dismal Horde side at the time. Now on #36. With 241 servers, that's a lot of room for suck.

 

[Freyjadour]

US servers ordered by rank: http://www.wowprogress.com/realms/rank/us

I was on #122 previously but it had a dead/dismal Horde side at the time. Now on #36. With 241 servers, that's a lot of room for suck.

lol 149

It's pretty much one guild keeping us that high up too. Such a shit server.

 

[Swag]

I don't think so.

It does

US servers ordered by rank: http://www.wowprogress.com/realms/rank/us

Being on number 2 ain't helping

 

[Alex]

I don't really understand why normal modes have to be hard

I do not agree at all that current normal modes are hard. Outside of the three end bosses for each dungeon I'd say they're extremely reasonable, some overly simple. Most of it has already been nerfed before and you can already plug holes in gear with Troll dungeons. I mean I could see taking down Nef, Al'akir and even Cho'gall down a bit but otherwise taking down already easy content to such a degree seems silly to me. The freebie gear handouts should be enough to aid players. I've never had any issues with those at all since it also helps out alts, rerolls, returns, new players, etc.

I'm simply bothered that we're now to the point where very little is allowed to challenge a player with their head on straight except for one tier of raiding. I'm far from some grand player, but I like to have some challenge and tension when I play and so very little of the game provides that. It's a shame that the diluted playerbase from WOTLK is now making it even more of a fringe concept where I'd like more options for the opposite.

An argument that came from from Blizzard that "well, this tier didn't have an intro raid like BC or LK" and I'll give you LK, but that was by *awful* design. Most of T11 on normal isn't really any harder than Karazhan was back in the day. The difference being your average player wasn't as much of an idiot back in BC. Originally, with Cata, they set out to repair the damage LK did but have now completely reneged on repairing any of it, possibly making it worse than before. (despite several posts and cocky blogs)

 

[yanhero]

I do not agree at all that current normal modes are hard. Outside of the three end bosses for each dungeon I'd say they're extremely reasonable, some overly simple. Most of it has already been nerfed before and you can already plug holes in gear with Troll dungeons. I mean I could see taking down Nef, Al'akir and even Cho'gall down a bit but taking down already easy content to such a degree seems silly to me. The freebie gear handouts should probably be enough to aid players and I've never had any issues with that, it also helps out alts, rerolls, returns, new players, etc.

I'm simply bothered that we're now to the point where very little is allowed to challenge a player with their head on straight except for one tier of raiding. I'm far from some grand player, but I like to have some challenge and tension when I play and so very little of the game provides that. It's a shame that the diluted playerbase from WOTLK is now making it even more of a fringe concept where I'd like more options for the opposite.

An argument that came from from Blizzard that "well, this tier didn't have an intro raid like BC or LK" and I'll give you LK, but that was by *awful* design. Most of T11 on normal isn't really any harder than Karazhan was back in the day. The difference being your average player wasn't as much of an idiot back in BC.

Originally, with Cata, they set out to repair this but have now completely reneged on repairing any of it, possibly making it worse than before. (despite several posts and cocky blogs)

What you said might have applied if these were nerfs made in March. Stop ignoring the timing. Blizzard timed these nerfs to be made when the next tier of raiding is available. The difficult raids will be in firelands, you will still get your challenge, if you wanted to be challenged by T11 raids, you should have played it by now. Stop complaining about good decisions that will help casuals, and will not hurt you one bit.

 

[wonderdung]

Being on number 2 ain't helping

Wow, Mal'Ganis has an awesome horde to alliance ratio: 1 / 0.6. Illidan is heavily Horde too... are factions a hindrance to strong PVE progress or something? (Or is Horde just better? :troll

 

[Alex]

They're not casuals, they're miserable players. I probably put in far less time each week than a lot of the people who will reap the rewards from this change. Casual means that you don't have a lot of time to dedicate, not that you're too stupid to kill Magmaw.

This definitely does effect me, both directly and in terms of the grand scheme of things. This isn't a one time thing and has been a building concern for years in diluting the quality of the player base. It's continuing a precedent I do not agree with, that in which nothing in the game outside of one tier of raiding (which contains a whopping seven bosses) should require more than a pulse to effortlessly down.

I'm not going to rage down and quit the game, I'll do that when I get bored (which will probably be sooner than later unless Firelands is truly amazing) but I think it's worth discussing.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

Wow, Mal'Ganis has an awesome horde to alliance ratio: 1 / 0.6. Illidan is heavily Horde too... are factions a hindrance to strong PVE progress or something? (Or is Horde just better? :troll

Probably stems from the imba of shamans and pvp racials in vanilla.

 

[yanhero]

They're not casuals, they're miserable players. I probably put in far less time each week than a lot of the people who will reap the rewards from this change. Casual means that you don't have a lot of time to dedicate, not that you're too stupid to kill Magmaw.

This definitely does effect me, both directly and in terms of the grand scheme of things. This isn't a one time thing and has been a spread of a problem for years in diluting the quality of the player base. It's continuing a precedent I do not agree with, that in which nothing in the game outside of one tier of raiding (which contains a whopping seven bosses) should require more than a pulse to effortlessly down.

I'm not going to rage down and quit the game, I'll do that when I get bored (which will probably be sooner than later unless Firelands is truly amazing) but I think it's worth discussing.

What you are complaining about doesn't make any sense.

To the hardcore, even if they didn't nerf T11, there will still only be one single tier of raiding thats difficult. T11 will be a joke once the hardcore gets T12 gear. So these nerfs won't affect the hardcore one bit. In addition, the hardcore players that want to reroll or get an alt geared up fast can now do so with pugs at whatever time they are free.

To the casuals who can't down T11, and have not had a chance to see all the T11 bosses yet (not everyone is good at this game, they aren't miserable, they aren't stupid, they just want to have stress-free fun), they will now have a chance to. This is great, I would love to be able to pug T11 on an alt with my casual friends who have erratic work schedules, and are only able to put in 2 or 3 hours per week at random times.

So it's a win-win here. You are just hating cause you feel that its unfair that you had to do it the hard way while the casuals now get to see everything easily. But who the fuck cares, you had your fun, now let others have their fun. You can still have your fun in Firelands.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Lol@Blizzard arguing they dropped Abyssal Maw to do more Firelands bosses, despite the fact that the number of Firelands bosses has been a known, unchanged quantity for a long time. And they wonder why people are dropping subs left and right.

 

[GLopez12]

I don't think subscriptions are actually dropping anymore. The initial 600,000 was big, but it's nowhere near the end for World of Warcraft.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't think subscriptions are actually dropping anymore. The initial 600,000 was big, but it's nowhere near the end for World of Warcraft.

There's never going to be concrete proof since only Blizzard knows, but almost nobody I know is still playing. You just see empty guild rosters.

 

[Alex]

What you are complaining about doesn't make any sense.

To the hardcore, even if they didn't nerf T11, there will still only be one single tier of raiding thats difficult. T11 will be a joke once the hardcore gets T12 gear. So these nerfs won't affect the hardcore one bit. In addition, the hardcore players that want to reroll or get an alt geared up fast can now do so with pugs at whatever time they are free.

To the casuals who can't down T11, and have not had a chance to see all the T11 bosses yet (not everyone is good at this game, they aren't miserable, they aren't stupid, they just want to have stress-free fun), they will now have a chance to. This is great, I would love to be able to pug T11 on an alt with my casual friends who have erratic work schedules, and are only able to put in 2 or 3 hours per week at random times.

So it's a win-win here. You are just hating cause you feel that its unfair that you had to do it the hard way while the casuals now get to see everything easily. But who the fuck cares, you had your fun, now let others have their fun. You can still have your fun in Firelands.

I'm not sure what fairness has to do with it...? Honestly, I'm not sure you're even reading what I'm saying at this point. Also, please stop dropping WoW General type terminology on me. Telling me to "stop complaing" or calling me a "hater" is hardly going to do wonders for your stance in a conversation.

I'm sticking by my stance though. I feel that easy content is becoming easier to facilitate not casuals, but poor players. Perhaps not universally, but very much in the bulk.

If you have friends that only play one or two hours or so every couple of weeks, cool, however I don't feel like raid content should be designed or altered around people like that. I feel like Blizzard should come up with more alternative content or solutions and the like to suit the more spontaneous crowd. Not everything needs to be for everyone. It bothers me because;

-I still would like to use this content for alts.

-I feel like Blizzard is using this as a knee-jerk, lazy way out to create "new" content for people who probably just aren't that interested in raiding. I would love more types of content, including laid back stuff I could do if I get a free night on occasion.

-The player base doesn't need to be diluted any further. For every genuine casual who uses this, several steady players who could contribute to the raiding community will instead likely just wallow in mediocrity. It can be frightfully hard to recruit good players nowadays already.

If Blizzard really wants people to simply be able to see raiding content, they should probably just design an easy mode that also acts as a makeshift tutorial. That way people get into modern instances and don't have to be left behind and they also learn things about raiding and their roles in it rather than just being hurled into the wall at cap and told to go to EJ.

 

[PatzCU]

US servers ordered by rank: http://www.wowprogress.com/realms/rank/us

I was on #122 previously but it had a dead/dismal Horde side at the time. Now on #36. With 241 servers, that's a lot of room for suck.

My guild transferred from Draka Alliance to Illidan Horde a couple weeks ago and it was the best thing we've ever done. We went from 3/12H to 9/12H in 3-4 weeks just because we could recruit more talented players being on a larger server.

I also transferred my PVP characters to Darkspear Alliance to play with a very pvp-centric guild and that also made a huge difference. Being stuck on a bad server can ruin the game.

 

[yanhero]

I'm not sure what fairness has to do with it...?

Honestly, I don't think you're even reading what I'm saying at this point. This is an odd post for me to respond to considering certain things I said in my past two. You also seem to be making a lot of odd assumptions and getting flustered at me because I just do not agree. It's not WoW General, calling people "haters" or simply telling them to "stop complaining" is silly.

I'm sticking by my stance though. I feel that easy content is becoming easier to facilitate not casuals, but poor players. My guild is casual, we raid limited hours, most of us are married and work full time jobs. We did not struggle much at all to down normals and are currently working on the back half of heroic raids. I do not feel like it's unfair to expect some basic skill out of players. I feel like it is good for the game and the type of design we could see spread rather than regress in ways it has.

If you have friends that only play two hours or so every couple of weeks, cool, I don't feel like raid content should be designed or altered around people like that. I feel like Blizzard should come up with more alternative content and better heroics and the like to suit the more spontaneous crowd. Not everything needs to be for everyone. It bothers me because;

1.) I still would like to use this content for alts.

2.) I feel like Blizzard is using this as a knee-jerk, lazy way out to create "new" content for people who probably just aren't that interested in raiding. I would love more types of content, including laid back stuff I could do if I get a free night on occasion.

3.) The player base doesn't need to be diluted any further. For every genuine casual who uses this, several steady players who could contribute to the raiding community will instead likely just wallow in mediocrity. It can be frightfully hard to recruit good players nowadays already.

Again, it's not a huge deal, but it is a concern to me.

Well I have a difference stance on "casual" players. Poor players are poor because they don't have the time it takes to read up and do research on all the boss mechanics and on the optimum reforge and rotation. Essentially, they are poor because they are casual.

These nerfs don't mean you can win by ignoring all the boss mechanics. Imo, the game does not "regress", it simply gives players more leeway for mistakes, and therefore a more stress-free experience. Players will still wipe if you never stack up for blackout, they will still wipe if you never get people out of worship. It's just that they might win now if they didn't get out of worship once or twice.

Point #1 is fair, if you want to be challenged on alts for T11, then it would affect you.

Point #2, can you elaborate on this? What content do you propose? Blizzard is adding like 50 new daily quests to 4.2, so I'm not sure how they are being "lazy" on making content for people who don't want to raid.

Point #3, I'm not sure the player base would be diluted at all. Hardcore gamers will continue to strive in heroic firelands. Casual players will simply get a chance to see a boss they haven't before. If the player is good and can not stand in the fire and do their rotation correctly, I don't see how nerfs would make them any worse.

You gotta remember that this game has a very wipe range of players. Every decision that Blizzard makes is going to make someone unhappy. That is why I feel that people need to "stop complaining" and look at everyone's point of view. If you do, you will see that the decision often will make others happy too. I'll repeat every decision will make someone unhappy, the player base is simple too wide. There are people complaining about the fucking keyring for gods sake.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

My guild transferred from Draka Alliance to Illidan Horde a couple weeks ago and it was the best thing we've ever done. We went from 3/12H to 9/12H in 3-4 weeks just because we could recruit more talented players being on a larger server.

I also transferred my PVP characters to Darkspear Alliance to play with a very pvp-centric guild and that also made a huge difference. Being stuck on a bad server can ruin the game.

Most of my characters are currently on Draka horde (but I haven't really been playing in awhile). What alliance guild were you in?

And I transferred to Draka from an even worse server, but I'd hesitate to transfer again anytime soon with 3 85s (2 of the transferred at 80) and two 70s there. One is a scribe with every recipe as well :/

 

[Alex]

I'll just make a couple of quick responses since I think we're just goin' in circles here!

Point #2, can you elaborate on this? What content do you propose? Blizzard is adding like 50 new daily quests to 4.2, so I'm not sure how they are being "lazy" on making content for people who don't want to raid.

Blizzard has been really, really lazy in general lately in terms of new types of content or function. The game desperately needs NEW things to do outside of raiding or see-saw happy PvP. Daily Quests are not new nor are they a compelling form of content for almost anybody.

BC added several new types of content, LK revised some and added a couple as well. Cataclysm is really just continuing the exact same things LK already did. It's a shame to see when some new bits of design could really help out. They did mention once, in brief passing, they were looking into something along those lines, but who knows when (or if) we'll ever hear of that again.

Point #3, I'm not sure the player base would be diluted at all. Hardcore gamers will continue to strive in heroic firelands. Casual players will simply get a chance to see a boss they haven't before. If the player is good and can not stand in the fire and do their rotation correctly, I don't see how nerfs would make them any worse.

The player base is already pretty screwy due to pieces of the games evolution. Some people struggle to break into any real raiding or learn the game properly because nothing in leveling nor in post-nerf heroics and the like really teach them much. It has been exceedingly difficult for us to get new, quality recruits compared to years in the past. Might just be anecdotal, but there's surely some patterns here.

They should just put in an easy mode for new tiers, ones that provide slightly scaled down versions of the fights and offers tutorials and acts as a tour. Sticking people into dumbed down old content instead of helping them or making content to suit them is more insulting than helpful, IMO.

One kudos I will give Blizz is the Encounter Journal (which I do not understand why ANYONE would complain about it considering the first guilds all use datamined tips and everyone else uses videos from the first guilds). Hopefully that will inspire people to be more in-step with encounter design.

Perhaps something like it can be made and maintained for class design itself in the future, not telling people EXACTLY what to do but helping them out instead of hurling people at EJ or simply expecting people to know how to weave their mountain of abilities together properly when they never had to before.

I really blame the iffy leveling in this game for a lot of things.

 

[yanhero]

I'll just make a couple of quick responses since I think we're just goin' in circles here!

Blizzard has been really, really lazy in general lately in terms of new types of content or function. The game desperately needs NEW things to do outside of raiding or see-saw happy PvP. Daily Quests are not new nor are they a compelling form of content for almost anybody.

Well again, please elaborate on what "new" things you expect Blizzard to add. You can't expect completely new forms on content to be added. This is a single game, if you want completely new forms of content, you need to play another game.

The player base is already pretty screwy due to pieces of the games evolution. Facilitation of mediocrity and unneeded nerfs rather than better education of players or more comfortable laddering of content. People struggle to break into any real raiding or learn the game properly because nothing in leveling nor in post-nerf heroics and the like really teach them much.

I agree that Blizzard should add in more raid mechanics to quests and dungeons to better prepare players for raids. I feel that they have already started on doing this. Imo though, nerfs do not make players worst. Good players will still be good, bad players will still be bad, just that bad players will now get to down Cho'gall and Nef too.

I'm fine with giving people the gear and getting them ready to go, I support that, always have but I just don't feel like nerfing content to the point where it barely requires thought is going to help the game.

Where heres where I strongly disagree, the nerfs are NOT to the point where it barely requires thought. 20% less damage/health just means players have more leeway for mistakes, it does NOT mean they can ignore all boss mechanics.

Just put in an easy mode for new tiers, ones that provide slightly scaled down versions of the fights and offers better tutorials. Sticking people into dumbed down old content instead of helping them or making content to suit them is more insulting than helpful, IMO.

Normal modes already do this. Importantly, my understanding is that these new nerfs only effect normal mode, if players want a challenge in T11 content, they can still do T11 heroics.

 

[Alex]

Where heres where I strongly disagree, the nerfs are NOT to the point where it barely requires thought. 20% less damage/health just means players have more leeway for mistakes, it does NOT mean they can ignore all boss mechanics.

The patch does a lot more than -20% health/damage (although this will cause a lot of ease on killing things before transitions, invalidating danger of certain things, etc). There's lots of reductions or removal of mechanics altogether. You'll be able to ignore a lot of things outright now.

Well again, please elaborate on what "new" things you expect Blizzard to add. You can't expect completely new forms on content to be added. This is a single game, if you want completely new forms of content, you need to play another game.

Why can't you, exactly? What on Earth is wrong about expecting more to come out of development than a new raid and a new arena season each patch? Far lower budget MMOs add new content-types frequently. Creativity in design with WoW is extremely low at the moment.

You see good suggestions pretty often, from sanctioned city raids to competitive open-world dungeons a third reward type (previous two being mounts and pets) based on cosmetics, etc, there's tons of good ideas out there.

Cataclysm acted as a glorified WOTLK patch in a lot of areas, and it's been a problem.

 

[yanhero]

Why can't you, exactly? What on Earth is wrong about expecting more to come out of development than a new raid and a new arena season each patch? Far lower budget MMOs add new content-types frequently. Creativity in design with WoW is extremely low at the moment.

You see good suggestions pretty often, from sanctioned city raids to competitive open-world dungeons a third reward type (previous two being mounts and pets) based on cosmetics, etc, there's tons of good ideas out there.

Cataclysm acted as a glorified WOTLK patch in a lot of areas, and it's been a problem.

Why not? Clearly you don't understand software development. If you want to add something completely new to a piece of software, you have to change a LOT. If the engine was not designed to support a particular idea, you would have to change everything, it seems you have absolutely no idea what kind of time and effort it would take to add a completely new feature to a 7 year old MMO.

And I don't think the three ideas you listed are any good.

The patch does a lot more than -20% health/damage (although this will cause a lot of ease on killing things before transitions, invalidating danger of certain things, etc). There's lots of reductions or removal of mechanics altogether. You'll be able to ignore a lot of things outright now.

Killing things before transition? If 20% reduction means you can dps sooo fast that you can kill things before transition, the content would have been super easy for you before the nerfs already. You are grasping at straws here.

Removal of mechanics altogether? What exactly are you referring to? There is only 1 instance of this, and its the removal of Static Shock from Al'akir, and this mechanic barely did anything anyway.

No, you will not be able to ignore a lot of things outright, I can tell we'll never be able to agree on this point. My stance is that you will still have to worry about boss mechanics but players will have more leeways to make mistakes, your stance is casuals will just be able to go in and zerg it down before phase transitions while ignoring boss mechanics. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Alex]

Why not? Clearly you don't understand software development. If you want to add something completely new to a piece of software, you have to change a LOT. If the engine was not designed to support a particular idea, you would have to change everything, it seems you have absolutely no idea what kind of time and effort it would take to add a completely new feature to a 7 year old MMO.

And I don't think the three ideas you listed are any good.

Also, good job derailing my main argument on T11 nerfs.

Amazing how this seven year old engine supported new ideas the last two expansions including brand new content venues and even niche things vehicle systems but not a single element of any consequence in Cataclysm. At this point you just sound like an apologist for the game to me. MMOs frequently (including pre-Cata WoW) expand their content types.

Also, I'm not derailing it, I'm just sick of repeating myself for something and I've spent too much time on this debate anyhow considering my investment in it is very low. I don't agree with your stance and that's all there is to it, we're simply going in circles now. I did poke in a small edit though, there's a *lot* more to the nerfs than boss health and damage, including quite a score of things that will ultimately let you ignore boss mechanics.

 

[Tamanon]

Isn't it pretty obvious that the raid nerfs are aimed at making it so that people can get through that content and experience the new stuff?

I mean, it's great to be challenging at first, but after you get the fight down and understand everything it goes from hard to tedious. And that leads to more burnout.

 

[yanhero]

Amazing how this seven year old engine supported new ideas the last two expansions including brand new content venues and even niche things vehicle systems but not a single element of any consequence in Cataclysm. At this point you just sound like an apologist for the game to me. MMOs frequently (including pre-Cata WoW) expanded their content types.

What you don't understand is the "extent" to which you can add new content. If the engine was designed to add new classes, abilities, and boss mechanics, then you can do so with moderate effort. Vehicles is something that is easy to add because the engine can easily support it, its simply a different UI bar, with different abilities.

But if you expect something completely new that is outside of what the engine was originally designed to do, then it would take a LOT of effort.

I can tell this is something I will not be able to explain to you. So I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Alex]

What you don't understand is the "extent" to which you can add new content. If the engine was designed to add new classes, abilities, and boss mechanics, then you can do so with moderate effort. Vehicles is something that is easy to add because the engine can easily support it, its simply a different UI bar, with different abilities.

But if you expect something completely new that is outside of what the engine was originally designed to do, then it would take a LOT of effort.

I can tell this is something I will not be able to explain to you. So I'll just leave it at that.

So when Blizzard was talking about the hurdles of adding in vehicle play and designing suspension and passenger systems for them, it's just an 'ol toolbar? But when adding interfaces and rewards to facilitate existing pieces of the game in alternative ways, it's now impossible?

You're either full-on daft or you think I'm talking about entirely new game design rather than the types of modifiers that Heroics, Arenas, Open-World PvP zones, etc have added in the past.

 

[yanhero]

So when Blizzard was talking about the hurdles of adding in vehicle play and designing suspension and passenger systems for them, it's just an 'ol toolbar? But when adding interfaces and rewards to facilitate existing pieces of the game in alternative ways, it's now impossible?

You're either full-on daft or you think I'm talking about entirely new game design rather than the types of modifiers that Heroics, Arenas, Open-World PvP zones, etc have added in the past.

Umm, I didn't say that adding interfaces and rewards is impossible. I didn't say exactly what was impossible actually. I'm just trying to explain to you that there ARE some things that would be very difficult to add.

I have no idea which of the two you are talking about. I asked you to elaborate on what new things you expect Blizzard to add. You said things like "open world dungeons", and I can't really comment on whether this is doable or not without you elaborating on what you mean, and without knowing what the WoW engine is capable of.

I'm simply saying that there ARE somethings that are hard to add and that you should not expect something wildly new, thats all.

 

[Alex]

Umm, I didn't say that adding interfaces and rewards is impossible. I didn't say exactly what was impossible actually. I'm just trying to explain to you that there ARE some things that would be very difficult to add.

I have no idea which of the two you are talking about. I asked you to elaborate on what new things you expect Blizzard to add. You said things like "open world dungeons", and I can't really comment on whether this is doable or not without you elaborating on what you mean, and without knowing what the WoW engine is capable of.

I'm simply saying that there ARE somethings that are hard to add and that you should not expect something wildly new, thats all.

Blizzard consistently adds new hefty new mechanics to the game, extensive stuff, that's how questing became a lot more complex in recent times. Elements like phasing, vehicles, etc. Their coders have gone far and beyond just adding simple hooks to a lot of elements of this game.

Also, they've replaced much of this engine piece by piece since launch. In interviews they state more of the game runs in a backwards compatible like manner than the other way around.

They clearly have a harder time thinking of any meaningful ways of adding in new fare than they would coding it. The things I listed (which were just silly random examples) were all very simple modifiers that the biggest concern would be server strain. That's especially why I think city PvP will never happen due to all of the crashing that occurred in classic.

 

[yanhero]

Blizzard consistently adds new hefty new mechanics to the game, extensive stuff, that's how questing became a lot more complex in recent times. Elements like phasing, vehicles, etc.

Also, they've replaced much of this engine piece by piece since launch. In interviews they state more of the game runs in a backwards compatible like manner than the other way around.

They clearly have a harder time thinking of any meaningful ways of adding in new fare than they would coding it. The things I listed were all very simple modifiers that the biggest concern would be server strain. That's especially why I think city PvP will never happen due to all of the crashing that occurred in classic.

Well I'm simply trying to inform you that you should not assume that the things you listed are "very simple modifiers". Depending on how the engine was designed, it could be a huge endeavor to add one of those thing.

And if you think its so easy to think of meaningful ways to add new features, then please do tell, I would love to hear it. So far you have listed sanctioned city raids, competitive open-world dungeons, and a third reward type.

Sanctioned city raids? As opposed to unsanctioned ones? Whats the difference, how is this sanctioned one any better and more fun?

Competitive open world dungeons? Please elaborate, how is this any different from open world raid bosses?

Third reward type? Blizzard adds new rewards all the time, I don't think they are really bad at this, nor do I think this is "meaningful".

 

[Alex]

Considering most of the stuff I mentioned could very likely be done with existing code and would be more interface based, yes I do assume it's simple. However I also assume Blizzard would want to do more than that (funny, I seem to be giving them more credit than you), so I'm ok with that, however they did skimp on Cataclysm compared to expansions past.

As for what I want in specific, I don't know, I'm not a designer. I just feel like the game needs to be moved a bit beyond simply raiding and arenas. They need something else they can reasonably pump content into and they need a new type of reward system other than simply passing out more and more mounts (especially since one type of mount is almost useless now) and pets.

Mostly I'd like some general fare done in the greater world, which is a ghost...world... at this point due to the amount of instancing, insta-travel and emphasis on Stormwind/Org as hubs. No one in my guild *ever* leaves Stormwind unless they're actively leveling on an alt.

A lot of that has been completely for the better, cutting down time sinks, improving grouping, though you can't ignore some of the detrimental nature it's had on the flavor of the game.

Feels like such a wash especially to redesign Azeroth and provide nothing in it other than a weeks worth of leveling or so, never to be revisited again.

 

[yanhero]

Considering most of the stuff I mentioned could very likely be done with existing code and would be more interface based, yes I do assume it's simple. However I also assume Blizzard would want to do more than that (funny, I seem to be giving them more credit than you), so I'm ok with that, however they did skimp on Cataclysm compared to expansions past.

As for what I want, I don't know, I'm not a designer. I just feel like the game needs to be moved a bit beyond simply raiding and arenas (and a really anemic RBG structure).

As for what I'd like, I'd like some general fare done in the greater world, which is a ghost...world... at this point due to the amount of instancing, insta-travel and emphasis on Stormwind/Org as hubs.

A lot of that has been completely for the better, cutting down time sinks, improving grouping, though you can't ignore some of the detrimental nature it's had on the flavor of the game.

Well as a professional software engineer myself, I can tell you, you should never assume that adding any new features to a 7 year old piece of software is "simple". I don't know why you keep insisting that its simple when the only people who knows whether its simple or not is the engineers of the WoW engine. Stop assuming its simple, it all depends on the extent of the engine's capabilities.

Second, the game is going to be raiding and arenas, any brand new features they come up with will go to their new MMO, not WoW. Like I said before, this is a single game, if you want completely new things, you need to play another game.

 

[Alex]

Well as a professional software engineer myself, I can tell you, you should never assume that adding any new features to a 7 year old piece of software is "simple". I don't know why you keep insisting that its simple when the only people who knows whether its simple or not is the engineers of the WoW engine. Stop assuming its simple, it all depends on the extent of the engine's capabilities.

Second, the game is going to be raiding and arenas, any brand new features they come up with will go to their new MMO, not WoW. Like I said before, this is a single game, if you want completely new things, you need to play another game.

Simple is probably a poor term, but considering the rather extensive fare they've added in somewhat less meaningful areas, I assume it's very doable, considering the amount of interesting code they've yet to really take out for much of a walk yet.

Also, they've already said they're adding a new content type a few months ago (which was in reference to open world play, so that's why the open world has so much assumption)... so yeah...

They also added in Archeology, Rated BGs, the Guild Leveling system, etc into Cata, I just happen to think they're fairly half-assed compared to what they should have been.

You've been like talking to a brick wall, so I'm just going to stop now.

 

[Freyjadour]

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect Blizzard to breath new life into the game with new features with each expansion. I think the reason that a lot of people (myself and many I know included) are burning out is that the patterns of the game are almost obnoxiously transparent these days.

And dear christ, enough with the Daily Quest format. I could not fathom a more boring form of content.

Isn't it pretty obvious that the raid nerfs are aimed at making it so that people can get through that content and experience the new stuff?

I mean, it's great to be challenging at first, but after you get the fight down and understand everything it goes from hard to tedious. And that leads to more burnout.

That's absolutely the point. I don't think their goal is to rehash the previous tier for casual players to any great degree. They want people in 359+ as soon as possible so they can experience Firelands and stay subscribed. Otherwise you're setting up the same sort of progression guidelines that Vanilla and BC did, i.e. grinding out BoT and BD for weeks before setting foot into the new dungeon. The majority of players hated that, because it made Raiding a true commitment that you paid the price for breaking.

The unfortunate part, to me at least, is that it absolutely cheapens the previous content you spent so much time on. Unavoidable perhaps with higher gear, but not likely to be pugged by the masses very successfully until perhaps after Firelands or the point into Firelands in which folk have obtained enough VP gear from daily heroics to overpower content.

 

[lazybones18]

Discussed in an Off-Topic board thread, but since this related to WoW, I figured I would post the same story here

As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells.

Liu says he was one of scores of prisoners forced to play online games to build up credits that prison guards would then trade for real money. The 54-year-old, a former prison guard who was jailed for three years in 2004 for "illegally petitioning" the central government about corruption in his hometown, reckons the operation was even more lucrative than the physical labour that prisoners were also forced to do.

"Prison bosses made more money forcing inmates to play games than they do forcing people to do manual labour," Liu told the Guardian. "There were 300 prisoners forced to play games. We worked 12-hour shifts in the camp. I heard them say they could earn 5,000-6,000rmb [£470-570] a day. We didn't see any of the money. The computers were never turned off."

Memories from his detention at Jixi re-education-through-labour camp in Heilongjiang province from 2004 still haunt Liu. As well as backbreaking mining toil, he carved chopsticks and toothpicks out of planks of wood until his hands were raw and assembled car seat covers that the prison exported to South Korea and Japan. He was also made to memorise communist literature to pay off his debt to society.

But it was the forced online gaming that was the most surreal part of his imprisonment. The hard slog may have been virtual, but the punishment for falling behind was real.

"If I couldn't complete my work quota, they would punish me physically. They would make me stand with my hands raised in the air and after I returned to my dormitory they would beat me with plastic pipes. We kept playing until we could barely see things," he said.

It is known as "gold farming", the practice of building up credits and online value through the monotonous repetition of basic tasks in online games such as World of Warcraft. The trade in virtual assets is very real, and outside the control of the games' makers. Millions of gamers around the world are prepared to pay real money for such online credits, which they can use to progress in the online games.

The trading of virtual currencies in multiplayer games has become so rampant in China that it is increasingly difficult to regulate. In April, the Sichuan provincial government in central China launched a court case against a gamer who stole credits online worth about 3000rmb.

The lack of regulations has meant that even prisoners can be exploited in this virtual world for profit.

According to figures from the China Internet Centre, nearly £1.2bn of make- believe currencies were traded in China in 2008 and the number of gamers who play to earn and trade credits are on the rise.

It is estimated that 80% of all gold farmers are in China and with the largest internet population in the world there are thought to be 100,000 full-time gold farmers in the country.

In 2009 the central government issued a directive defining how fictional currencies could be traded, making it illegal for businesses without licences to trade. But Liu, who was released from prison before 2009 believes that the practice of prisoners being forced to earn online currency in multiplayer games is still widespread.

"Many prisons across the north-east of China also forced inmates to play games. It must still be happening," he said.

"China is the factory of virtual goods," said Jin Ge, a researcher from the University of California San Diego who has been documenting the gold farming phenomenon in China. "You would see some exploitation where employers would make workers play 12 hours a day. They would have no rest through the year. These are not just problems for this industry but they are general social problems. The pay is better than what they would get for working in a factory. It's very different," said Jin.

"The buyers of virtual goods have mixed feelings … it saves them time buying online credits from China," said Jin.

The emergence of gold farming as a business in China – whether in prisons or sweatshops could raise new questions over the exporting of goods real or virtual from the country.

"Prison labour is still very widespread – it's just that goods travel a much more complex route to come to the US these days. And it is not illegal to export prison goods to Europe, said Nicole Kempton from the Laogai foundation, a Washington-based group which opposes the forced labour camp system in China.

Liu Dali's name has been changed

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/25/china-prisoners-internet-gaming-scam?INTCMP=SRCH

 

[Rokam]

I love finding items I never knew about, was questing in Vashj'ir and NPC Scan went off found a rare spawn gnome pirate that dropped a hat that turns me into him. I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I love finding items I never knew about, was questing in Vashj'ir and NPC Scan went off found a rare spawn gnome pirate that dropped a hat that turns me into him. I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff.

That's a popular farm spot. You're lucky. I got it on accident on a character I hardly play.

It's on a 12+ hours timer IIRC.

I think there's a few bugs and tricks people do in cities to show off.

I saw someone as a large gnome and huge troll at the same time.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

I love finding items I never knew about, was questing in Vashj'ir and NPC Scan went off found a rare spawn gnome pirate that dropped a hat that turns me into him. I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff.

I got it early on in Cata when I was going through Vash (to clean up quests as I did Hyjal leveling) with my main. It's a fun item - like a reusable Deviate Delight. Takes the helm slot though, so you can't wear it doing a dungeon or something unless you're overgeared in other slots.

 

[FLEABttn]

The color gear argument still? Come on now.

 

[mclem]

lol 149

It's pretty much one guild keeping us that high up too. Such a shit server.

180 here on Aggramar in Europe. Go us!

 

[PatzCU]

Most of my characters are currently on Draka horde (but I haven't really been playing in awhile). What alliance guild were you in?

And I transferred to Draka from an even worse server, but I'd hesitate to transfer again anytime soon with 3 85s (2 of the transferred at 80) and two 70s there. One is a scribe with every recipe as well :/

Our guild was "Insomnia" on Draka Alli. We managed server first Nefarian (reg), but could only get to about 3/12H because there were no great players to recruit on Alli side. Draka isn't a bad server, it has a good size population, but it just wasn't working out for progression raiding.

 

[McNei1y]

I hate this LFG Heroic bug/fix that kicks your entire group if one of them leaves... After wasting 2 hours in ZG, our pvp healer who wanted to try ZG can't heal the Panther boss. So our tank and myself are staying while the DK and healer have to go... Oh, they leave and I get removed from the group with them while the tank was able to stay... WASTING 2 HOURS for that and in the end getting nothing. I sent Blizzard a ticket but I know nothing will come from it. 2 hours is a pretty long time especially when it consists of receiving nothing and wasting 100g on one boss.

/rant