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[Nugg]

It can't be the same as doing the 10 man normal version of Deathwing

10 man loot is already the same as 25 man.

I guess it'll just be the same loot with a few ilevel less than normal. Just like heroic loot is the same but a little more powerful.

 

[dave is ok]

I wonder what will they do with loot from the raid finder. It can't be the same as doing the 10 man normal version of Deathwing or else no one will bother doing it, so what will it be?
What about previous Tier raids?

Or maybe no loot at all to make it simpler and just make the raid finder give a good amount of Valor points.

I wouldn't be surprised is the raid finder loot is sub-378

 

[Bisnic]

Yeah, i also think raid finders should only be good for people to practice, not to actually gear yourself. Leave that for actual raids and maybe the new 5 mans. Standing in fire, or close to people when you're a "bomb" shouldn't kill yourself or others in 2 secs like the usual raid, but it should still be deadly if you act like a retard and dont move after a while with the obvious spell effects around you.

 

[Nugg]

Yeah, i also think raid finders should only be good for people to practice, not to actually gear yourself. Leave that for actual raids and maybe the new 5 mans. Standing in fire, or close to people when you're a "bomb" shouldn't kill yourself or others in 2 secs like the usual raid, but it should still be deadly if you act like a retard and dont move after a while with the obvious spell effects around you.

You overestimate how much people actually want to practice. They don't. They want loots. If you can't get at least entry level gear from the raid finder tool, then it won't be used.

 

[Bisnic]

You overestimate how much people actually want to practice. They don't. They want loots. If you can't get at least entry level gear from the raid finder tool, then it won't be used.

If you get better gear from stupidly easy raids than harder Deathwing 5 mans(assuming they will be hard like ZG/ZA on 4.1 release day), it wont make sense. If the gear difference between raid finder's Deathwing and the normal raid Deathwing is only minimal but the actual difficulty is big enough to make a difference, who will want to do the normal raid?
People won't care for a bracer with +15 more intellect. +10 crit and +12 more haste if its much harder to get than the bracer from the raid finder. Just like i dont want to farm Valor points for T12 gloves for my alt right now when i have 365 gloves already from Molten Front dailies. Little difference in stats, not worth it.

I really don't know how they're going to handle it.

 

[TheYanger]

My bad. I thought you were talking about Cataclysm.

I actually meant to type Bethtilac instead of Shannox, which was much harder on 10 man. Shannox is pretty even, but on 10 you have less people to break Face Rage. Heroic Alysrazor was harder on 10 because people can't die at all, 25 manhaving a few people die probably won't affect your kill.

Blatantly false...less people to break facerage? you don't use multiple people on 25 man anyway, and you have to hit for a lot more on 25 to break it (Which is ridiculous since it's MORE THAN LIKELY a not debuffed mob, or at least no more debuffed on either setting, and it's not like your spells magically hit 15% harder on 25 man). Alysrazor is tuned tightly, or was when we were originally progressing on it. You couldn't have dead people or you would wipe. Just because you have 8 dps on initiates or whatever doesn't mean that losing one of them won't make you fall behind on the damage required. Let alone how many phases it forces you into (Now it wouldn't matter for us, but it absolutely meant we'd need all 3 phases early on, which might as well have been a wipe). Beth...P1 is a little more complicated/different, I wouldn't say significantly harder, P2 is absolutely easier. Yeah, you have less CDs, but she always did fantastically less damage so you didn't need them. You'd wipe at about the same time but on 25 you had to actually map out the CDs for it to get there. Piss easy boss either way.

I still love the false notion that T11 was this impossible ordeal on 10 man too. Nef and Sinestra were harder on 10 man (The latter due to poorly conceived mechanics on Blizz' part that they fixed eventually). The rest were not, 10 man guilds were just bad. Just like they were this tier where the fights are easier and they still would tend to lag vastly behind, that's just how it has played out in the west. A bit less true in europe, and much less true in asia (where 10 man guilds are all the rage and they perform extremely well).

If you get better gear from stupidly easy raids than harder Deathwing 5 mans(assuming they will be hard like ZG/ZA on 4.1 release day), it wont make sense. If the gear difference between raid finder's Deathwing and the normal raid Deathwing is only minimal but the actual difficulty is big enough to make a difference, who will want to do the normal raid?
People won't care for a bracer with +15 more intellect. +10 crit and +12 more haste if its much harder to get than the bracer from the raid finder. Just like i dont want to farm Valor points for T12 gloves for my alt right now when i have 365 gloves already from Molten Front dailies. Little difference in stats, not worth it.

I really don't know how they're going to handle it.

Thank you, this is at the root of why people who don't understand why giving mouthbreather level content that invalidates higher level content has cost the game subs. It will kill a lot of normal mode guilds, where the raiders are already not chomping at the bit for harder content.

 

[Alucrid]

T13 Druid Set actually looks kinda decent. =O

http://i53.tinypic.com/200vjpy.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

I dunno, I think it looks kinda samey.

[QUOTE=TheYanger]Blatantly false...less people to break facerage? you don't use multiple people on 25 man anyway, and you have to hit for a lot more on 25 to break it (Which is ridiculous since it's MORE THAN LIKELY a not debuffed mob, or at least no more debuffed on either setting, and it's not like your spells magically hit 15% harder on 25 man). Alysrazor is tuned tightly, or was when we were originally progressing on it. You couldn't have dead people or you would wipe. Just because you have 8 dps on initiates or whatever doesn't mean that losing one of them won't make you fall behind on the damage required. Let alone how many phases it forces you into (Now it wouldn't matter for us, but it absolutely meant we'd need all 3 phases early on, which might as well have been a wipe). Beth...P1 is a little more complicated/different, I wouldn't say significantly harder, P2 is absolutely easier. Yeah, you have less CDs, but she always did fantastically less damage so you didn't need them. You'd wipe at about the same time but on 25 you had to actually map out the CDs for it to get there. Piss easy boss either way.

I still love the false notion that T11 was this impossible ordeal on 10 man too. Nef and Sinestra were harder on 10 man (The latter due to poorly conceived mechanics on Blizz' part that they fixed eventually). The rest were not, [B]10 man guilds were just bad[/B]. Just like they were this tier where the fights are easier and they still would tend to lag vastly behind, that's just how it has played out in the west. A bit less true in europe, and much less true in asia (where 10 man guilds are all the rage and they perform extremely well).



Thank you, this is at the root of why people who don't understand why giving mouthbreather level content that invalidates higher level content has cost the game subs. It will kill a lot of normal mode guilds, where the raiders are already not chomping at the bit for harder content.[/QUOTE]

I'll agree with this. Some players I just don't get. They get to 85 (hell, even get multiple toons to 85) have pretty decent gear yet still struggle to pull 10k dps. I mean, even on my spriest that I've had for 3 days at 85 with only gear from ZG / JP I can still pull 13k pretty regularly. Some people are just, ugh. In a 40 man you could have a few that lagged behind, but in a ten man it's pretty apparent when someone is being carried.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I wonder what will they do with loot from the raid finder. It can't be the same as doing the 10 man normal version of Deathwing or else no one will bother doing it, so what will it be?
What about previous Tier raids?

Or maybe no loot at all to make it simpler and just make the raid finder give a good amount of Valor points.

Random stat loot imo. Just make it lower level and there you go. Then they don't even have to "waste" time itemizing gear.

Thank you, this is at the root of why people who don't understand why giving mouthbreather level content that invalidates higher level content has cost the game subs. It will kill a lot of normal mode guilds, where the raiders are already not chomping at the bit for harder content.

How'd I know you'd find some way to argue Raid Finder is the worst idea ever and will kill the game's subs? Oh, that's right, because everything you don't do is a terrible idea and kills the games subs. You must be the most selfish player ever.

I dunno, I think it looks kinda samey.

I still think it looks like something you'd find in Throne of the Tides or something.

 

[Alucrid]

Random stat loot imo. Just make it lower level and there you go. Then they don't even have to "waste" time itemizing gear.

How'd I know you'd find some way to argue Raid Finder is the worst idea ever and will kill the game's subs? Oh, that's right, because everything you don't do is a terrible idea and kills the games subs. You must be the most selfish player ever.

I still think it looks like something you'd find in Throne of the Tides or something.

I'm not sure how I feel about the raid finder. I still have issues when going into a PuG raid on my server sometimes, now we're expanding that to the entire wow population. Hrmmm, maybe there should be some other req than ilevel to be able to queue so that you're deemed at least competent to do it.

 

[dave is ok]

it's not like your spells magically hit 15% harder on 25 man

They actually do. You have every buff/debuff in the game.

 

[Alucrid]

They actually do. You have every buff/debuff in the game.

And some of the buffs are magic. (but seriously, we get what he's talking about)

Also, I hope 4.3 does something with trueshot aura since it's always, always made useless by other classes.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'm not sure how I feel about the raid finder. I still have issues when going into a PuG raid on my server sometimes, now we're expanding that to the entire wow population. Hrmmm, maybe there should be some other req than ilevel to be able to queue so that you're deemed at least competent to do it.

Arguing that Raid Finder will cost the game subs is pretty much like arguing the moon is made of cheese.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I'll be interested in testing out multiple characters and roles at least.

 

[Alucrid]

I'll be interested in testing out multiple characters and roles at least.

This is true. So when I fuck up healing or tanking I can just peace.

 

[TheYanger]

They actually do. You have every buff/debuff in the game.

Unless your raid runs with the worst comp imaginable, no, they don't. Any reasonable 10 man comp ALSO has every buff/debuff in the game, or certainly the vast majority of them. Why the fuck would anyone possibly think that. You don't need ANY buffs/debuffs on 10 man to break facerage. Before they made attacks autocrit, we had to assign a bunch of hunters and crap to it on 25 since their crit rate was so high (I'm not saying it was hard, it wasn't, it never was, but it boggles my mind that it would even come up. There's absolutely NO way this shit is harder on 10 than 25 to do).

I made the 15% number up btw, you have to hit him 50% harder on 25 man. (30k vs 45k). But keep saying that's somehow harder, it's ok.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

This is true. So when I fuck up healing or tanking I can just peace.

This is gonna work great.

1 wipe.

1 Tank, 3 DPS, and 2 Healers leave.

Waiting in queue for a couple minutes for next attempt.

Wipe again.

Bleeding people now.

Gonna. Be. Great.

Now that may be an exaggeration, but it seems like a very possible situation.

 

[Bisnic]

This is gonna work great.

1 wipe.

1 Tank, 3 DPS, and 2 Healers leave.

Waiting in queue for a couple minutes for next attempt.

Wipe again.

Bleeding people now.

Gonna. Be. Great.

Now that may be an exaggeration, but it seems like a very possible situation.

Seeing how it happens sometimes in pug 5 mans, i can see this happening in pug raids. Especially if you notice that half your group stand in fire and type "oh come on why i die".

I still see people standing in the fucking huge cone of death from the 2nd boss of ZG. I mean, how can you miss something so obvious?

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Seeing how it happens sometimes in pug 5 mans, i can see this happening in pug raids. Especially if you notice that half your group stand in fire and type "oh come on why i die".

I still see people standing in the fucking huge cone of death from the 2nd boss of ZG. I mean, how can you miss something so obvious?

I'm just thinking the problem will be amplified when dealing with 25 people who have no accountability to each other over 5.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Maybe they are allowing 25 people do 10 man normal. lol.

 

[wonderdung]

Unless your raid runs with the worst comp imaginable, no, they don't. Any reasonable 10 man comp ALSO has every buff/debuff in the game, or certainly the vast majority of them. Why the fuck would anyone possibly think that. You don't need ANY buffs/debuffs on 10 man to break facerage. Before they made attacks autocrit, we had to assign a bunch of hunters and crap to it on 25 since their crit rate was so high (I'm not saying it was hard, it wasn't, it never was, but it boggles my mind that it would even come up. There's absolutely NO way this shit is harder on 10 than 25 to do).

I made the 15% number up btw, you have to hit him 50% harder on 25 man. (30k vs 45k). But keep saying that's somehow harder, it's ok.

He already said he meant Beth instead of Shannox. 45k is nothing anyway, it's an easy fight regardless so not worth fighting about.

Biggest problem with 10 mans is raid comp rock paper scissors and attendance. You have to have bench players and different classes to sub in. Nothing to do with the fights, really, more with raid management.

And T11 was hard on 10 because the fights were bugged to hell when the tier was released. But a few 10 man raids rolled over it anyway, and I am jealous of those guys since they have a better raid group than me.

 

[idlewild_]

I imagine they're doing 25man only to minimize the number of healers/tanks required as a percentage of the run. Instead of having 2 tanks + 2 heals + 1 off-heals -> 50% of the raid gone from low qty/high demand specs, they'll just have 2 tanks + 5 heals -> 28% of the raid. 25man raid of 10man content sound pretty lulzy, but it would probably result in something that's nicely in between the new 5mans and 10man normal in terms of time investment and difficulty.

 

[TheYanger]

He already said he meant Beth instead of Shannox. 45k is nothing anyway, it's an easy fight regardless so not worth fighting about.

Biggest problem with 10 mans is raid comp rock paper scissors and attendance. You have to have bench players and different classes to sub in. Nothing to do with the fights, really, more with raid management.

And T11 was hard on 10 because the fights were bugged to hell when the tier was released. But a few 10 man raids rolled over it anyway, and I am jealous of those guys since they have a better raid group than me.

And yet he still mentioned shannox was harder on 10 for some reason, which is wrong, just as bethtilac is (Though beth is at least mechanically different on 10, whereas shannox is blatantly mechanically easier).

Again with the T11 crap...MOST of the fights were just as buggy on both difficulties. V&T and Sinestra were tuned badly on 10, V&T was fixed very early on, while Sinestra was much later. Otherwise shit was fine, it was all tuned much easier on 10 the only problems were fights where mechanics made 10 mans retarded, IE: Nef and Sinestra (which was fixed). I could refer back to where I complained about that at the time, the fact is 10 mans prevent them from designing fights that could be more interesting because those issues keep showing up that any time a fight is designed with more than like 2-3 individual roles to do, they break down on 10 man and become 'too hard' (though, a lot of it is still hogwash. Nef is DIFFERENT on 10 but it's not insanely harder, just comp stringent which sucks but oh well, comp matters on 25 man too).

 

[Angry Grimace]

retarded.

Every time. Virtually any recent page in WoW thread 3: Ctrl-F "retard."

Potion of Illusion is hilarious. You can copy the Taregosa mount buff and do whole raids or BGs composed of Taregosas (no you can't fly with it).

The alleged statement "we'll be talking about pandas at Blizzcon" sounds like they're planning to reveal it's a troll. Just a gut feeling.

 

[Tamanon]

T13 Shaman looks pretty subdued but good. Love the helm.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

It's decent. Maybe it's the effect of it being on an orc, but it seems a bit too yellow. I do like the shoulders though - that's something we've never seen on Shaman before, though it seems maybe a bit out of place and something you'd more likely find on Hunters.

(It seems they might have a particle effect though, with the skulls breathing fire!)

My favorite shaman sets are T6, T7, T8 (dat shoulders), and T10. None of the shammy sets have been particularly bad though except for 2.5 and 9 (Horde). I didn't ever realize until now that the Alliance T9 was so much better than the Horde one though.

T9 was really a mixed bag though - some sets were good, some were awful, and some factions got shafted on particular classes.

A lot of the non-tier loot (weapons/shields) out of CC was pretty awesome though.

 

[strafer]

dem shoulders

 

[wonderdung]

Again with the T11 crap...MOST of the fights were just as buggy on both difficulties. V&T and Sinestra were tuned badly on 10, V&T was fixed very early on, while Sinestra was much later. Otherwise shit was fine, it was all tuned much easier on 10 the only problems were fights where mechanics made 10 mans retarded, IE: Nef and Sinestra (which was fixed). I could refer back to where I complained about that at the time, the fact is 10 mans prevent them from designing fights that could be more interesting because those issues keep showing up that any time a fight is designed with more than like 2-3 individual roles to do, they break down on 10 man and become 'too hard' (though, a lot of it is still hogwash. Nef is DIFFERENT on 10 but it's not insanely harder, just comp stringent which sucks but oh well, comp matters on 25 man too).

Yeah yeah, I'm not saying 10 was harder than 25, I'm explaining why 10 man was hard last raid tier. Maloriak, V&T, Conclave and maybe Chimeron were all cockblocks for a while on 10H because of bugs or stupid comp requirements. These problems didn't exist in 25, but other problems surely did. All were fixed at various points, though they were killable in their original state anyway by dedicated and or non-shit guilds.

Nef and Sinestra may have been broken but they were fine by the time we got to them in progression.

 

[vilmer_]

Wow, really digging the Shaman set.

 

[Bisnic]

Those shaman shoulders are pretty neat.

 

[Alex]

That one actually does look at least somewhat different, I like it.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Blizzard taking the huge shoulder obsession to new extremes, I see. Not horrible, just kind of ridiculous.

 

[Sciz]

It's good to be a shaman. Makes up for the eye-searing hideousness of T11, anyway.

 

[Rokal]

I actually dislike how Shaman T13 looks. Different strokes.

They didn't say "they'd be talking about Pandas at Blizzcon"

Here's the exact quote within the conversation:

ito: I'm sure that'll make all of the rogue's happy. I'm going to be attending BlizzCon in October, is 4.3 going to be released before then?

Brack: We do not announce dates.

Tito: That's true ... So soon or late?

Brack: Sorry?

Tito: Are you thinking in the next couple weeks? Months?

Brack: 4.3 is not currently out of PTR (Public Test Realm). There will be some PTR time that we want before the patch actually goes live and we haven't currently released to the PTR. So not next week is the answer.

Tito: Not soon. I have tons of questions about the next expansion but that's not something you can really talk about.

Brack: That sounds like something we may potentially be talking about at BlizzCon.

Tito: Does it have to do with pandas?

Brack: That sounds like something we may be talking about at BlizzCon.

 

[Mr Nash]

Pretty snazzy shaman set. Now there's two T13 sets that I quite like. Maybe Blizzard is finally starting to get back to trying to make appealing tier sets after the last few were so atrocious.

 

[Bisnic]

They HAVE to talk about the next expansion at Blizzcon... i mean, we wont fight Deathwing for 1 year like the Lich King right? Right?

 

[ampere]

The new Shaman set looks perfect for enhancement.

I play ele, so I might transmogrify to tier 6, but I haven't decided yet.


Side note, anyone ever had it happen that their character on armory was showing up as female, even though it's male in game?

It's happening to me right now, weird bug.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I actually dislike how Shaman T13 looks. Different strokes.

They didn't say "they'd be talking about Pandas at Blizzcon"

Here's the exact quote within the conversation:

Close enough. The effect is no different worded that way than how I paraphrased it.

 

[Rokal]

I don't think so, really. Blizzard didn't bring up Pandas. They just gave the same "maybe we'll talk about that at Blizzcon" answer that they gave to the last question.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't think so, really. Blizzard didn't bring up Pandas. They just gave the same "maybe we'll talk about that at Blizzcon" answer that they gave to the last question.

Um, okay. *shrug*

 

[MattPeters]

So, the bird mount dropped from Alysrazor tonight.

Didnt win, tried to buy it off the winner...no dice.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I sure wish that the elementals for the "Death from Above" achievement would you know, change....like ever, instead of just keeping the same 3 up for months.

 

[Nugg]

I don't think so, really. Blizzard didn't bring up Pandas. They just gave the same "maybe we'll talk about that at Blizzcon" answer that they gave to the last question.

Yeah I read that as a polite way of saying "we don't confirm or deny rumors until blizzcon".

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I think Shaman is boss for a male Orc. Gives a Thrall vibe. Other than that.. it's going to be lame on my female Goblin.

 

[Bisnic]

I sure wish that the elementals for the "Death from Above" achievement would you know, change....like ever, instead of just keeping the same 3 up for months.

Random is random. Took me a little more than a week to get them all.

It helped that i never completed the daily, so i could just do it again the next day without risking of not gettting it.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Steampunk Mage!

I like the goggles. It definitely is different. Good, but not the best mage set ever. I like T5, T8, and T11 the best for Mages.

 

[strafer]

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

^^^

Your image is HUGE and I already have it a post before you. Please edit it down or out so it doesn't slow down the whole page.

 

[TheYanger]

I love it.

I'm really liking these tier sets, even if not everyone likes all of them, that's because they're bold and not sterile generic bullshit like we've been getting. Polarizing is better than fucking boring by a long shot.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

^^^

Your image is HUGE and I already have it a post before you. Please edit it down or out so it doesn't slow down the whole page.

a 700kb image isn't doesn't to slow the page down...

People post multiple gifs that are megabytes each elsewhere on the forum.

 

[Entropia]

I love it.

I'm really liking these tier sets, even if not everyone likes all of them, that's because they're bold and not sterile generic bullshit like we've been getting. Polarizing is better than fucking boring by a long shot.

Agreed. I think the designers were given a bit loosened reigns on their designs.