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World of Warcraft

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etiolate

Banned
Well I'm Seargant, which I think was higher rank than him. I don't recall hsi rank though. I think I use to get ganked a lot for being a Seargant at below 30. I kind of regret getting any sort of rank so early. The reward though is that the PVP capes at this level for these ranks are better than what you can normally get. It's like 77 armor and stamina boost versus 23 armor and minor boosts.

And totally unrelated to this is a question. Any preferences by people here on which is better, Gnome Engineering or Goblin? I went Gnome for the gadgets and goggles. I want to get the Goggles XTreme that up my damage and healing.
 
"Have you noticed the price of level 20-30 blues on your server? Many go for 30-50 gold on mine. And yes, you'll see rogues with dual crusader under level 30. It's silly."


And level 20-30 blues can be acquired by running instances, not to mention that while blue gear gives an advantage it's not quite the same advantage as say, level 60's decked out in tier 2 epic gear vs. some guy polka dotted in greens and blues. 1-2 more dps and some extra points in stamina shouldn't scare you.

But dual crusader under level 30 is silly, the enchant twinking really does need to be fixed. It just doesn't matter past a certain point.

"The reward though is that the PVP capes at this level for these ranks are better than what you can normally get. It's like 77 armor and stamina boost versus 23 armor and minor boosts"

He doesn't get the PvP cape just from killing you. And that roughly ~100 cp he probably got from ganking you is a drop of piss in the toilet needed to get up to sergeant.

And you're not getting ganked because of your rank, nobody does world PvP for the honor points.
 

yacobod

Banned
pvp rank does not reflect a players skill

pvp rank simply equals time spent in BGs

the 4 ppl that have reached rank 14 so far on my server were admittedly playing around 18-20 hours a day, or they had multiple ppl playing their account

i myself quit at rank 10, because i was getting really burned out of it

i couldnt imagine pushing for rank 14

but at the same time, i don't think pve require any more skill than pvp

what's so hard about pve?

with ct_raidassist, decursive, and everything else, pve is pretty trivial

MC and ZG are pretty easy, i've never done BWL, so i cant speak for that
 

etiolate

Banned
He doesn't get the PvP cape just from killing you. And that roughly ~100 cp he probably got from ganking you is a drop of piss in the toilet needed to get up to sergeant.

I meant I like having the rank for the pvp armor, not that killing me gets him his rank.

Does killing higher ranks not get you good honor? That huge raid I was in got me 30-40 kills and a good amount of honor.

I'd drop the pvp server, but all my guildies are on it and my warlock just started getting worthwhile.

AND NOW I SHARE ANOTHER PVP STORY

I am sitting at the docks in Booty Bay waiting for the boat to ratchet. There's a 17 Shaman there waiting as well. Someone says in the Alliance general chat "Let him be", so we leave him alone. I get on the boat, he comes in after me and takes a shot at me on the boat. He aggros my imp, which I have to call off of him before it kills him. I sit on the boat with my demon on passive the whole time, just ignoring him. We arrive at Ratchet, I jump off the top of the boat to the dock and he attacks me again. By the time I turn around to look at him the guards had killed him. I still have no idea what he was thinking. I could have killed him on the boat at any time nad really screwed him over.

Then after being nice, I get ganked by a 60 rogue hiding inside a trade hut while I'm selling crap.
 
"Does killing higher ranks not get you good honor? That huge raid I was in got me 30-40 kills and a good amount of honor."

It gives you more honor than killing someone of an equal rank, but the honor you're "worth" at Sergeant isn't that much. Also, killing people provides a really negligible amount of honor in general. If I got ~20,000 honor a day, I'd estimate that 1/6th of that is honor received from HKs and the rest is bonus honor from winning BGs and turning in marks.
 

Mzo

Member
teknowhatever is completely killing this thread with his endless responses and inability to use the quote system.
 
"teknowhatever is completely killing this thread with his endless responses and inability to use the quote system."


I dunno if you know this, but quotation marks came about first.
 

epmode

Member
Teknopathetic said:
I'm beginning to see the discrepancy between the two sides of the PvP argument. One side feels rewarded by the excitement and fun, the other only feels rewarded by new gear.
Not entirely. PvP can be fun in its own right, but Battlegrounds (and DKs) killed the awesome outdoor encounters that were common when the game launched. When your only realistic option for group combat is to wait in a 45 minute queue for a 10 minute AB match, you lose a lot of enthusiasm for the system.

I'm looking forward to the PvP revamp and the promised world PvP objectives Blizzard mentioned back in the day.
 

Mzo

Member
He's still doing it =(

dave is ok said:
I sold a level 19 blue cape for 50g. I rule.
Yeah, you're a jerk.

You guys missed out on PvP Monday, we tore AB up. Queue times were down to 8 mins at one point, it got pretty crazy.

My only loss for the night was when the Jolly Rogers bent us over and had their way with us.
 
"When your only realistic option for group combat is to wait in a 45 minute queue for a 10 minute AB match, you lose a lot of enthusiasm for the system."

I suppose. For the most part, since my server has a really misproportioned A:H ratio (something like 3:1), BG queue times are short, if there at all. And I spend that queue time either finishing up something else or if I don't feel like waiting at all, I just log out and decide to come back later.
 

fallout

Member
I love how PvP discussion is now automatically synonymous with BGs. =\

Anyway, the best BGs I've had were the 40-49 ABs. I ran with nothing but PuGs, but it was usually the same 10-14 guys. Plenty of discussion and one guy would usually take the charge of being the "map bitch", or what most might call the "leader". It was surprisingly effective. I think one weekend we went at least 10 games without a loss, with quite a few 5 caps.

Now, at 60, you can't play AB without a guild and be successful. I've done the PuGs and it's ugly. Nobody talks, people just kill, and that's all there is to it. We've won sometimes, but I garauntee that it's only because the other side was basically as complacent to the objectives.

etiolate said:
And totally unrelated to this is a question. Any preferences by people here on which is better, Gnome Engineering or Goblin? I went Gnome for the gadgets and goggles. I want to get the Goggles XTreme that up my damage and healing.
Goblin has some nice stuff, but you really only need to care about the BoP items. I've seen the Gnomish Death Ray crit > 3k. That battle chicken is also a great trinket pet to have while your dragon is on cooldown (and vice versa more often than not, since the chicken only takes 30 mins). I can't recall what the goblin ones are right now, but from what I've seen, they're just not as good. Anything else, you can get someone from the other discipline to make it for you.

And re: ganking ... just be glad you're not on the Horde side buddy. You'd be crying a lot more.
 
etiolate said:
WTF? Grinding is skill? Having a good run shows the players involved are not brain dead, but I really haven't run across a lot of need for gaming skill in WOW yet. Just a lot of patience.
I can't tell if you have a level 60 character or not because you just posted a lot about your lower level stuff, but until you've completed Blackwing Lair, don't ever try to say that WOW is not about skill.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
I can't tell if you have a level 60 character or not because you just posted a lot about your lower level stuff, but until you've completed Blackwing Lair, don't ever try to say that WOW is not about skill.

Ya, it's about wishing you had rolled a warrior so you aren't bored to death
 

firex

Member
yacobod said:
MC and ZG are pretty easy, i've never done BWL, so i cant speak for that
I've just started BWL and my guild is only up to Vael, but so far it feels like it doesn't really require a lot of skill (though I'd say it's definitely harder than all previous raid instances).

and I just wanted to add in that I think pvp actually becomes more unbalanced at 60. sure, everyone has all their abilities at the max rank, but a fresh 60 with lots of blues/greens vs. a player who's been 60 for a long time and has multiple epics is heavily in favor of the epic geared player (especially if they're a hunter, warrior or rogue - really the only class this isn't true for is a priest or druid since their epic sets only concern healing).

I still heavily prefer world pvp (as long as world pvp doesn't include 50 alliance constantly zerging TM) but it doesn't give tangible rewards like BGs do. and the honor system is terribly designed as it really does only reward grinding. I've had weeks where I played nothing but PUGs in BGs and lost most of them, and I still got more honor than a week where I only went into the honor bonus BG with a guild group for half as much as usual, and won them all.

but yeah, anyway, I'm kinda hoping they get off their asses and work on the Azshara BG and give us another BG while we're at it (imo, old school warcraft 1 throwback BG in swamp of sorrows).
 
You should try out the arena chest in STV. I have caught the midnight and 3 AM chests every time I remembered and have yet to be disappointed. It's incredibly fun and hectic.

Also, if you don't PvP a whole lot, try saving your turn ins for when that BG is having a holiday.
 

firex

Member
etiolate said:
And totally unrelated to this is a question. Any preferences by people here on which is better, Gnome Engineering or Goblin? I went Gnome for the gadgets and goggles. I want to get the Goggles XTreme that up my damage and healing.
like it was said earlier, it's really only about the BOP things... well, and the transporters and goblin/gnome-exclusive stuff. IMO goblin jumper cables xl > most other gnomish stuff for utility (I don't really use my death ray at all anymore, and I'm a warlock too). and spellpower goggles xtreme or xtreme plus are great and all, but what's even better is to make green lenses until you get one of shadow wrath or flame wrath - 10 stamina and +34-36 spell damage. I'm currently wearing a green lens of shadow wrath actually, due to not getting any warlock drops the last few times I've run onyxia.

edit: I'll try going for arena master stuff sometime. plus I could probably send some of the blues to an alt if I win it.
 

fallout

Member
firex said:
IMO goblin jumper cables xl > most other gnomish stuff for utility (I don't really use my death ray at all anymore, and I'm a warlock too).
Yeah, but Jumper Cables XL don't bind, so all you have to do is find someone with eng to make them for you. If you can pull the mats together and find a guildmate or something, it's not a big deal at all.
 

border

Member
WoW isn't about skill....particularly the PvE element, which is more a system that rewards coordination and knowledge. All the action is automated. All the major boss encounters are heavily scripted, and if that wasn't enough you've got CT_Raid telling you exactly what's about to happen. It's just a matter of knowing a strategy and getting 20-40 idiots to follow it properly. There is no dynamic element that really keeps you on your feet or tests your ability to react. I don't see how clearing BWL is a measure of skill, so much as it's a measure of time-spent (same with PVP). The difference is that you have to play smart in instances, whereas the PVP system allows you to be an idiot and still progress.

Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Blizzard Community Managers have even agreed with those posts and explained that the entire PVP system is currently undergoing an extreme re-working to make it more fun than a dull reputation grind.
I'd be happy if they just stopped or slowed the de-ranking that occurs when you stop PVPing for a while. I guess they don't want to make it a static, ever-progressing grind like XP....but fuck, I'm rank 9 (Legionnaire) and if I get 20K honor in a week I fucking lose ranking. Sucks that hours of free-time have to be eaten just so I can maintain everything I've worked for. I'd like to be able to take some time off to get deeper into endgame instances, but it's rough. Every time you rank-up they ought to give you an item that will freeze your rank for a week or two.
Ya cause it's worth giving up 70 days of playtime cause of bad game mechanics.
In the last two weeks, I've wasted more time in endgame instances than I have in PVP queues. Waiting for people to show up, waiting for replacements when somebody has to leave, waiting for the leader to explain the boss strategy to people, waiting for rezzes/buffs after a wipe or near-wipe. At least in a BG queue you can do things besides stand around....
 
border said:
WoW isn't about skill....particularly the PvE element, which is more a system that rewards coordination and knowledge. All the action is automated. All the major boss encounters are heavily scripted, and if that wasn't enough you've got CT_Raid telling you exactly what's about to happen. It's just a matter of knowing a strategy and getting 20-40 idiots to follow it properly. There is no dynamic element that really keeps you on your feet or tests your ability to react. I don't see how clearing BWL is a measure of skill, so much as it's a measure of time-spent (same with PVP). The difference is that you have to play smart in instances, whereas the PVP system allows you to be an idiot and still progress.

Dynamic Elements - Baron Geddon flashing someone with the bomb. Randomly dropped spit fire bombs by Magmadar, Lucifron's adds MC, managing Majordomo's adds, Shazzrah's Blink. Those are dynamic elements present in the most undynamic end-game instance - Molten Core.

Keeping you on your feet and testing your ability to react is a big part of MC. It's an even bigger part of BWL. Now, I'm not saying these are difficult zones, but I am saying that there are dynamic parts to these fights, and certainly much tougher than your average run through UBRS or beating up pugs in a BG.

Also, isn't playing "smart" in an instance to progress a measure of skill?
 

border

Member
Managing adds or avoiding hazardous materials is really that skillful? Particularly when the adds or hazmat-drops pretty much always come in the same phase of the fight?

I'd give props to the groups that originally blazed their way through the instances, but now that there's a tried-and-true strategy for almost everything the difficulty is just keeping a large group functioning properly. Is it really that skillful just to hammer Heal/Frostbolt/Sunder Armor/whatever over and over, occaisionally doing a stance dance or running to a different spot as the situation dictates? Some classes are a couple UI mods a way from being automated, it seems like ;)

I don't feel like there's a lot of skill in PVP or PVE......I just don't get how people can say there's no skill in PVP, while saying that endgame raids are really all about skill.
 
Teknopathetic said:
"When your only realistic option for group combat is to wait in a 45 minute queue for a 10 minute AB match, you lose a lot of enthusiasm for the system."

I suppose. For the most part, since my server has a really misproportioned A:H ratio (something like 3:1), BG queue times are short, if there at all. And I spend that queue time either finishing up something else or if I don't feel like waiting at all, I just log out and decide to come back later.

Aye, now there's the rub. I cannot imagine how it is for the side that is highly outnumbering the other when it comes to BGs. All that previous zerging meaning nada; and hours between reamings unless it's within guild.
 
border said:
Managing adds or avoiding hazardous materials is really that skillful? Particularly when the adds or hazmat-drops pretty much always come in the same phase of the fight?

You asked for dynamic parts to the encounter. I gave them to you. Sure, Magmadar's dynamic element is easy to navigate, but Domo isn't.

I would say managing Domo's adds are nothing to be scoffed at. Especially for undergeared groups who are facing him for the first time. If you haven't fought Domo once, then don't scoff at him. He's easily the toughest boss in MC. When you are facing 8 adds all at once, plus having to kite Domo all at once, and deal with the shield switches, there's a lot that can go wrong and often does for groups fighting him for the first few times.

I'd give props to the groups that originally blazed their way through the instances, but now that there's a tried-and-true strategy for almost everything the difficulty is just keeping a large group functioning properly. Is it really that skillful just to hammer Heal/Frostbolt/Sunder Armor/whatever over and over, occaisionally doing a stance dance or running to a different spot as the situation dictates? Some classes are a couple UI mods a way from being automated, it seems like ;)

Just because you know the strat, doesn't mean you "know" the strat. There are lots of little secrets that people don't reveal when they write up a strat. There are a lot of strats that don't apply to your raid makeup.

There is also more to raiding than just spamming a skill or using a UI mod. There are mobs like Onyxia where the fears are random, and where abilities like deep breath occur as a result of a variety of factors, all of which have to be managed at once.

There are also other elements to raiding beyond the spam. You have to watch your aggro during raiding while also keeping your dps up to a max level. You have to watch your mana while keeping your dps up to a high level. You have to watch your mana while keeping your tank up. Oh sure encounters become cake over time, but when you first start doing them, they are challenging.

If you just endlessly spam a "spell" ability you'll end up oom before the fight is even halfway done. If you use too many mods you'll be lagged up into inefficiency.

Heck, I only use the bare minimum of mods and I'm able to keep track of shit just as fine as people with a shitload of mods to help them play,. when I use my shaman. I attribute this to being "lagged up into inefficiency".
 

border

Member
Encounters can be challenging without requiring much skill. The challenge is in organization. Actual execution of a strategy is the crux.....not the formulation of the strategy, or dealing with massive changes to the dynamic. "We do this until 50% energy....then this....interrupt heal....kite adds to mages....then this...." Not a lot of room for error and the problem is that 40 people playing leaves a lot of room.
 

firex

Member
fallout said:
Yeah, but Jumper Cables XL don't bind, so all you have to do is find someone with eng to make them for you. If you can pull the mats together and find a guildmate or something, it's not a big deal at all.
xl requires goblin engy to use though.
 
border said:
Encounters can be challenging without requiring much skill.

Some fights are like this - see: Vael. Most are not.



The challenge is in organization. Actual execution of a strategy is the crux.....not the formulation of the strategy, or dealing with massive changes to the dynamic. "We do this until 50% energy....then this....interrupt heal....kite adds to mages....then this...." Not a lot of room for error and the problem is that 40 people playing leaves a lot of room.

How is execution of a plan, not skill? This is an mmorpg not an FPS. This isn't supposed to be a clickfest. The really skilled guilds are the ones which can formulate a plan and execute it. Still, even when you follow orders, the raid can still wipe due to your inability to manage factors that only you can handle and no one can tell you about.

In any case this doesn't deal with what I was responding to, which is your perception of a lack of random elements in pve.
 

fallout

Member
firex said:
xl requires goblin engy to use though.
What? Since when? You should only need goblin eng to make, but not to use. I'm only going on what thottbot's saying though, as I don't really have a need for these (shaman).
 
Would people say it's skill to beat a difficult 2D platformer or adventure game, where everything occurs in a pre-determined pattern and timing? Then why is WOW not as skillful for doing the exact same thing? This is how gaming has always been and always will be. Complete randomization and anarchy can be fun in a game, but it rarely makes for fun gameplay.

The new Hakkar is really fun and exciting. Every class has something to do and everyone is in a constant frenzy, compared to pre-1.9.3 Hakkar where everyone stood in place and sighed. We got him down after only a couple of wipes to learn what changed.
 

etiolate

Banned
As for PVP raids, it be nice if Blizzard improved the Southshore guards. Tauren Mill has an assload of 55 elites that are very aggressive. Southshore has a handful of docile 55s and I do mean docile.
 

etiolate

Banned
Would people say it's skill to beat a difficult 2D platformer or adventure game, where everything occurs in a pre-determined pattern and timing? Then why is WOW not as skillful for doing the exact same thing? This is how gaming has always been and always will be. Complete randomization and anarchy can be fun in a game, but it rarely makes for fun gameplay.

You can tell any player how to beat a platforming level, but they still need to the quick input skill and ability to sometiems turn on a dime or time everything just right. WOWs combat is rather slow and doesn't involve the same need for timing and input IQ as a 2d platformer.

So maybe its a mechanics thing.
 

etiolate

Banned
Fusebox said:
I wish we were on the same server so we could duel.

2004_09_zell.jpg
 
etiolate said:
You can tell any player how to beat a platforming level, but they still need to the quick input skill and ability to sometiems turn on a dime or time everything just right. WOWs combat is rather slow and doesn't involve the same need for timing and input IQ as a 2d platformer.

So maybe its a mechanics thing.
So, how was Vaelestrasz and Broodlord for you?
 

firex

Member
fallout said:
What? Since when? You should only need goblin eng to make, but not to use. I'm only going on what thottbot's saying though, as I don't really have a need for these (shaman).
i'm pretty sure when blizz added in goblin/gnome exclusive items, goblin got jumper cables xl, and gnome got... world enlarger. i know world enlarger takes gnomish engy to use, and from what i remember, the xl cables also take goblin engy to use.
 

etiolate

Banned
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
So, how was Vaelestrasz and Broodlord for you?

Do you get a new game engine for those areas?


Will it say Goblin Engineering on the plans? Because I see the XL jumper cable plans on AH all the time.
 

fallout

Member
firex said:
i'm pretty sure when blizz added in goblin/gnome exclusive items, goblin got jumper cables xl, and gnome got... world enlarger. i know world enlarger takes gnomish engy to use, and from what i remember, the xl cables also take goblin engy to use.
Ah, yeah ... the World Enlarger is gnome eng only, isn't it ... hm, maybe you're right. I just can't find anything to back up what you're saying though. Not that it even matters all that much.
 

yacobod

Banned
31/20 is the cookie cutter for a reason, because its the best warrior pvp build
even with the nerf 5/5 enrage is worth it

drop the 10 points from protection

put 1/1 into piercing howl (which is a great talent for pvp)

4/5 into battle shout

5/5 into enrage and your g2g

sword spec is better than axe spec imo

sword spec can proc off of itself, and really leads to some omgpwn moments with double and triple procs

it is king for burst dmg

if you have 25%+ crit in battle stance, HOJ, and an epic sword, you will pwn face

but you should spec accordingly to what weapons you have

------------------

and if you wanted the 10 pts in protection for tanking, why don't you just spec 31/5/15?

get defiance and drop UW


going 31/10/10 i think your just gimping yourself

won't be as viable in pvp as a 31/20 warrior

won't be as effective at tanking as a 31/5/15 warrior
 

Mzo

Member
etiolate said:
You can tell any player how to beat a platforming level, but they still need to the quick input skill and ability to sometiems turn on a dime or time everything just right. WOWs combat is rather slow and doesn't involve the same need for timing and input IQ as a 2d platformer.

So maybe its a mechanics thing.
Firemaw does a deaggro single target percentage knockback at regular, timed intervals. If they hit your MT enough, your DPS is going to pull aggro and the whole raid is screwed. You need tanks to time their taunts to get hit by the deaggro strike. I think there's some skill involved there.

That's just a small example. In MC you can have half the raid asleep or on auto mode and still come out ok. Everyone in your raid needs to be awake in BWL starting with the Razorgore zerg fight.

I see a lot of places there where skilled players and unskilled players are divided easily.
 
ManaByte said:
How does this Warrior build look?
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info...130201050310505000000000000005050000000000000

I'm tempted to swap out Sword Spec in Arms for Axes, but other than that I'm pretty happy with it. I get MS + rage and crits from Fury + the added defense and AC from Prot.
I like it. I'd maybe get rid of Toughness and Improved Hamstring for points in Improved Overpower and something else. Overpower is wickedly unbalanced, and you have to take advantage of it.
 

border

Member
Sirpopopop said:
In any case this doesn't deal with what I was responding to, which is your perception of a lack of random elements in pve.
The fights aren't completely telegraphed by a script and CT_Raid, no -- but I don't think that was really my point in the first place (just that they're heavily scripted). They're highly predictable, and success is more-or-less dependent on rote training. You can probably teach any group of 40 people to clear BWL if they were willing to learn and not a bunch of douchebags. OTOH, you couldn't put 10-20 people together and make them one of the world's best Halo clans.

At the end of a boss battle, I don't feel particularly skilled or anything. If we wipe, I don't blame lack of skill so much as I just blame certain people not following through on some relatively easy, mostly automated procedures. Nobody seems to say "We need more skill" so much as they say "We need a better strategy" or "We fucked up when we didn't do x".
Would people say it's skill to beat a difficult 2D platformer or adventure game, where everything occurs in a pre-determined pattern and timing? Then why is WOW not as skillful for doing the exact same thing?
If patterns in a platformer or shooter are legitimately difficult to deal with and require a particularly high level of ability, then yeah it's a skillful game (essentially my thoughts are the same as etiolate's.) I just don't seem much player skill required for WoW combat.
 

firex

Member
there's definitely player skill required for the Vael fight, though I still think it's almost too easy (or would be if aggro didn't seem really fucked up - the MT goes in, gets 5 sunders and a bunch of heroic strikes, and then the 2nd warrior just starts autoattacking and steals aggro right away? anyone else having similar issues?). but this game overall is so easy that none of the encounters feel too hard.

and on an unrelated note (and maybe this video's been posted before, i don't want to search through the whole thread to see though): http://www.youtube.com/w/The-Deadmines-Secret?v=qeMWOJn5o0s

video of some gnome mage glitching out and finding outland.
 
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