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[Retro]

Q: Where is my moose?
A: Well, we’re looking for a zone where moose would really fit. Unfortunately we did the perfect zone for them, Grizzly Hills, already. On the other hand, let’s just say we have a large, Egyptian-themed desert zone in Cataclysm….

^ You heard it here first, Camel Mounts.

Q: Is Smoke Bomb going to be usable in boss fights? Because it looks like it could cheat a lot of mechanics.
A: Potentially, yes. It essentially follows the same room of line-of-sight. If standing around a pillar lets you avoid a boss ability, then Smoke Bomb would too. Lady Deathwhisper’s adds for example, would run up to melee you if you were in a Smoke Bomb.

Q: How will "active spell is more powerful" be handled with no more dot clipping?
A: How about we get rid of “a more powerful spell is active” altogether? If you have some bonehead overwriting your more powerful buff or debuff, we’d rather you handle that issue socially.

Q: Can you allow points spent in your off tree give a diminished amount of mastery bonus toward your main tree so as to not nerf hybrid specs?
A: Does the Elemental shaman really want more melee damage though? Does the Shadow priest really want to heal better? If anything it feels like it would be a nerf to hybrids, since a warlock would get more damage from any tree, while a DPS hybrid might only get more damage from their tree.

If hybrids end up coming out a little short, we’ll compensate in other ways (such as more oomph in talents) instead of doing hacky things with the mastery system.

Q: Compared to some third mastery bonuses (radiance etc) others are a little boring (+crit damage etc) Intended? Comments?
A: The mastery bonuses are obviously a really new concept. The risk on the one hand is that they’re too boring and don’t affect gameplay and on the other extreme they take specs which already have a lot going on and just make them overcomplicated. For now we wanted to implement a range and see what feels the best in beta. We expect to iterate on these a lot.

Q: Why are you giving Mages more Crowd Control?
A: We like for classes and specs to have themes. Part of the mage kit is control. Part of the warrior kit is mobility. We like to reinforce those designs rather than give classes new abilities that remove their weaknesses. Weaknesses are supposed to be something you keep in mind while you’re playing. I’m sure Ret paladins would love Heroic Leap and warriors would love Polymorph, but that plugs a hole really, really well where you risk being a one person army who doesn’t need to be supported by other players in PvP or PvE. Obviously it risk homogenizing all the classes as well.

Q. You mentioned at BlizzCon that all races would be getting revamped racial abilities. Care to shed some light on any of them?
A. We’re going to do something similar to what we did in Wrath of the Lich King, where we just refresh them to make sure they’re balanced and feel cool. Something you could see is dwarves getting a bonus to Archeology, or undead getting a new activated racial ability that will be more useful in PvE.

Q. Will there be as much effort put into making tanking specs viable in PvP? Will Vengeance be useful in PvP?
A. Our goal is to make all specs as viable as we can in as many aspects of the game as possible. Currently some tank specs are not so much viable as they are overpowered (because their damage is competitive and survivability is off the charts), so that issue will have to be addressed when we start to flesh them out as more attractive and mainstream PvP spec options.

Q. What information/ideas can you share on PvP utility in the Retribution tree? Mandatory gap closer/interrupt question. Not having a cleanse will hurt. :\
A. Retribution paladins will be getting an interrupt.

^ Better than nothing I guess, but that sounds like it might leave Protection high and dry... that and the comment about tanks being viable in PVP seem to contradict each other, but... we'll see. At least they realized that Ret was the only DPS spec that had no interrupt... finally.

Q: Can you give us some more information on how and what Path of the Titans will reward you with? Talent points? Unlock talents?
A: The Paths unlock a new kind of glyph called an Ancient Glyph. These don’t enhance class abilities, since they are designed to work with any class. They do grant bonuses that might be useful to a wide variety of characters as well as offer some actual new abilities as well. If you think your action bar is full, then you may want to head for the passive bonuses instead of the active abilities.

Q: Did the developers learn anything from the death knight release that they plan to keep in mind for any possible future classes?
A: Um, maybe we won’t listen to community feedback about how classes need more abilities, damage and survivability? (Just kidding.)

Adding a new class is very challenging, which is one reason we don’t want to do it every expansion. It’s a really good question though, and we’d like to give a little more thought to how to answer it (when we aren’t fielding so many Twitter questions).

Q: With more players raiding in Wrath of the Lich King than ever before, do you plan to raise the difficulty to accommodate our new skill/experience?
A: The heroic difficulty is designed for the players looking for more of a challenge. One of the things we learned from Icecrown is that we unlocked the heroic modes so late that players had tons of practice on the encounters on normal mode, so the step up was smaller than it was in say Ulduar when players on hard mode were still learning some of the encounter basics. (In our defense though, because of the time of year we released Icecrown we made a conscious decision to not ask players to choose between holiday events and hard-mode raiding.)

^ "We told you gating was a bad idea" posts imminent.

 

[Retro]

Starting a new post to kick the thread for anyone not F5ing (and if you were, you'd be watching the chat live anyways!) and keep things spaced out a bit.

Q: Will Ragnaros have a new weapon in Cataclysm, considering that we stole and reforged his? I'm sure he's not happy about that either.
A: Oh come on, it never actually dropped for you.

Then again, is there really much demand for a Strength, Stamina, Fire resist, cosmetic Fireball proc weapon?

Q: Will the new guild perk system kill a lot of smaller guilds?
A: Our goal is not to encourage players to have to change their existing guild. We realize some players like smaller guilds and some like larger guilds and we don’t want to ask you to change that.

Q: What improvements to the UI are being considered (particularly for raid healing)?
A: We would like to update the default Blizzard UI. It has some fatal flaws, such as not being able to show buffs and debuffs simultaneously. We probably won’t ever go as crazy as some of the mods out there just because they provide a ton of customization, which is one of the things players like about them. We do think players deserve a raid UI that is fully functional for those players who just don’t like to install a lot of mods. We hope to get this change in for Cataclysm, but we’re changing the UI for the spell book, talent pane, professions window, character stats, guild, friends and probably a dozen things I’m forgetting, so it’s just a matter of how much time we have.

Q: What kinds of UI updates are planned for Cataclysm. Eclipse and Soul Shards are two, but any others?
A: We have already moved professions from the skill tab to an awesome new page on the spell book. In fact, in the absence of weapon skills, we got rid of the skill tab entirely. We have a new talent tree UI that shows all of the talent trees without scrolling and provides the passive bonuses as well. We’re changing the glyph UI to support Paths of the Titans. We’re changing the PvP queue UI to support rated Battlegrounds. We’d like to improve the V-nameplate feature. We’d like to provide more information when you level up about what new spells or features are now available to you. We’re experimenting with better ways to organize buffs and debuffs and communicate procs and cooldowns too.

Q: What change are you most excited about?
A: We are changing the old zones probably more than most players realize. A place like Stonetalon is virtually unrecognizable. It has all new quests and item rewards and dramatic changes to the landscape. A zone like Western Plaguelands has actually been updated to reflect the fact that the Scourge are in retreat (which is not to say that the zone is without its dangers). Everywhere you’re going to see something new and surprising. I think a lot of players are excited about the level 80-85 experience (as they should be!) and the goblin and worgen zones (which if anything are better than the death knight starter zone, if you can believe that), but I think a lot of players are going to want to reroll new character of existing races and classes just to see how much everything has changed.

^ Yay! People have been saying for months "OMG, u realize they r changin 2 zones n thats all, rite?". I'm looking forward to exploring all the new zones.

Q: I've been playing since vanilla. The consciousness you've applied to make this game grow is praiseworthy. Thank you.
A: You’re welcome!

One of the challenges of Cataclysm is to change enough to be exciting but not so much that the game feels unrecognizable to long-term fans. A lot is changing, but it’s still World of Warcraft.

Q. Any plans for an untalented spell to help warlocks deal with stuns?
A. Possibly. It’s also possible we may take a look at stuns in general. But overall stuns will feel less impacting in an environment where players have significantly more health than they do today.

Q. With the emphasis moving to Battlegrounds, have you looked into rogue cooldown dependency issues?
A. We definitely want to give rogues a considerable boost in the passive damage reduction department, and then tone down some of their active cooldowns in the process. We still want the rogue to feel twitchy and exciting to play, but not to the extent that you can’t deal with another class toe-to-toe without any cooldowns up. Oh, and Cloak of Shadows now provides 100% resistance.

Q. What change are you most excited about?
A. Some of the new Balance talents for druids, like Solar Beam, which works like Freya’s spell where it instantly silences a target and they have to move out of the beam to get rid of the debuff.

Q: When you say you're going to make relics class agnostic, does it include druids' idols as well?
A: Druid, shaman, paladin and death knight. It’s possible we will still keep some that are very specific to certain classes and specs. Overall though we’re not happy with the current design where an ability procs a buff on you. If it’s an ability you don’t use often, then the item is terrible, so they end up feeling really passive already. At the same time, the fact that we have to offer so many prevents us from ever giving you the choice of which one to use. So we make the Resto druid or Enhance shaman version every new tier. It would be a more interesting decision if there was a crit + Intellect relic and a haste + Intellect relic, and you can choose which one to use.

Q: Does the Marksman mastery (Double Shot) work like the Wild Quiver talent (provide a free autoshot) or like the Lightning Overload talent (a free whatever spell you just cast)? In other words, can Double Shot fire a second Chimera Shot?
A: Double Shot is a half-strength autoshot. Wild Quiver will increase the damage of the autoshot to 60-70% (or something similar). Lightning Overload (the talent) will likewise increase the magnitude of the Elemental Overload mechanic.

That concludes this edition of #BlizzChat. Thank you all for your questions! We'll now open up the thread for additional discussion.

 

[notworksafe]

Q: Will relics and wands be getting any new attention in Cataclysm?
A: With relics, the plan is to make them class agnostic. In other words, there might be a +strength relic that a death knight or paladin might want to equip. We think that will let us add more of them to the game without them being so specialized. They will feel more like wands.

That's kind of badass. I like the idea of just having relics without them being tied to any one class.

Q: What change are you most excited about?
A: We are changing the old zones probably more than most players realize. A place like Stonetalon is virtually unrecognizable. It has all new quests and item rewards and dramatic changes to the landscape. A zone like Western Plaguelands has actually been updated to reflect the fact that the Scourge are in retreat (which is not to say that the zone is without its dangers). Everywhere you’re going to see something new and surprising. I think a lot of players are excited about the level 80-85 experience (as they should be!) and the goblin and worgen zones (which if anything are better than the death knight starter zone, if you can believe that), but I think a lot of players are going to want to reroll new character of existing races and classes just to see how much everything has changed.

Also very cool. I was already planning on rolling a Goblin as soon as I could, but now I'm even more excited.

 

[J-Rzez]

Q: Will Dark Simulacrum work on bosses? or at least be useful in PvE?
A: It will work on any spell you can Spell Reflect, which is actually quite a few bosses. Remember, Dark Simulacrum doesn’t cancel the incoming damage so in that sense it is easier for us to balance letting death knights use it in PvE.

Also be careful considering new spells for old encounters. The encounter designers will make the new encounters with the new spells in mind.

First off, they need to come out and say if you have to be hit by "x" ability, or if you just need the debuff up on the target and they cast a spell at something. This is the only ability that'll be really useful in PVE after all.

Oh, and that Rune System change... bullshit. Who seriously struggles with it? I wasn't around if you guys talked about it, but still, I don't know a single person that couldn't grasp the system. Really a needless change imho.

Q: When does the homogenization of classes stop? Paladins are starting to look like priests. Where is the diversity?
A: We want the challenge of beating PvE encounters or enemy teams in PvP to be how awesome you are at strategizing, not how often you are at recruiting the right classes. While it is very, very important to us for classes to feel different, it’s also very important to us that friends get to play together.

This is going to be the death of this game. It's getting disgusting now as is that they're making classes feel less special. And face it, the classes of a MMO is the heart or soul of the game. Making them bland, not so unique, will end up killing off this game.

 

[Metroidvania]

Q: If 310% speed is becoming trainable, does that mean we'll be able to fly in Azeroth from the get-go?
A: We have considered the concept of “Old Weather Flying.” Just kidding. More than likely, you’ll just be able to fly from the beginning.

^ I'll believe it when I see it.

Lol, same.

Q: Do you intend to have all 280% flying mounts scale to 310% when a 310% mount is earned, or will only purchased mounts do so?
A: Our current plan, is that in Cataclysm, you can learn a new rank of flying that lets all flying mounts move at 310% (even current 280% mounts). That will probably be as fast as mounts will ever get. We don’t like it that when you get a 310% mount that you stop using your old ones.

Goddamnit, Blizz. I don't care about e-peen factor, but why make us have to pay for it in that case?

It's not like the transition from the old 60% flight speed to 280%, it's much, much less.

That's kind of badass. I like the idea of just having relics without them being tied to any one class.

It'll likely make 'em return to being drops to fight over, though. I kind of liked being able to buy my relic, though more variety will probably be nice.

 

[mclem]

Class Agnostic? Never heard that term used to describe anything but religion... I think they might have a different word in mind, maybe :lol

That's a completely valid usage of the word.

 

[notworksafe]

So I said I was going to hold out, but...

 

[Cipherr]

That guild name is amazing lmao.

Q. With all the new changes to Demonology warlocks, do you plan to implement any threat reduction talent unique for Demonology?
A. Threat is something that we want to be binary. You should only really ever worry about pulling threat from a tank during the first thirty seconds or so, when the tank is still establishing threat, not two minutes in because your DPS was too high. In a nutshell, we’ll make sure you don’t have to stop DPS during a fight because of your threat level (ala Hodir).

Im going to miss having this as an advantage. I really think one of the hunters most overpowered PvE abilities is a full 100 percent aggro dump on a 25 second cooldown. Its ridiculously convenient with the way the game works at the moment.

Q: Is Smoke Bomb going to be usable in boss fights? Because it looks like it could cheat a lot of mechanics.
A: Potentially, yes. It essentially follows the same room of line-of-sight. If standing around a pillar lets you avoid a boss ability, then Smoke Bomb would too. Lady Deathwhisper’s adds for example, would run up to melee you if you were in a Smoke Bomb.

This skill sounds way to awesome.

Q. Thanks for having this chat! I have to say that I feel many changes are PvP-oriented. Is the game shifting more toward PvP?
A. What we’re trying to do at this point in the game is make abilities more niche and interesting, rather than adding Sinister Strike with a different name.

Us hunters thank you for the reskinned steady shot, and the reskinned freezing arrow as two of our new skills. Nothing like getting something totally NEW...

Q: Why are you giving Mages more Crowd Control?
A: We like for classes and specs to have themes. Part of the mage kit is control. Part of the warrior kit is mobility. We like to reinforce those designs rather than give classes new abilities that remove their weaknesses. Weaknesses are supposed to be something you keep in mind while you’re playing. I’m sure Ret paladins would love Heroic Leap and warriors would love Polymorph, but that plugs a hole really, really well where you risk being a one person army who doesn’t need to be supported by other players in PvP or PvE. Obviously it risk homogenizing all the classes as well.

Rets just keeled over.

 

[Angry Grimace]

310% isn't really that much faster than 280%.

I can see game-breaker reasons you can't go faster than that though.

The game wasn't designed for players to move at 310% speed; as for flight in Old Azeroth, I would FULLY (rightfully so) expect that Hyjal, etc. (new zones) will have a Flight Zone restriction much like Wintergrasp used to. Probably due to the Nordrassil "magic."

 

[HarryDemeanor]

Are we taking guesses to how much this new rank will be? I'm going with 8000g.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Are we taking guesses to how much this new rank will be? I'm going with 8000g.

The difference in speed isn't that high.

 

[Sciz]

The difference in speed isn't that high.

The most minor buffs are the ones that come with the highest premium. And Blizzard isn't going to pass up an opportunity to bleed millions back out of the economy.

See also: Gems, enchants, portable holes

 

[Jrmint]

Are we taking guesses to how much this new rank will be? I'm going with 8000g.

I'm gonna guess 1000g. I don't think it'll be much more than that. I'm also gonna go out on a limb and say it won't be trainable until 85.

 

[Retro]

This is going to be the death of this game. It's getting disgusting now as is that they're making classes feel less special. And face it, the classes of a MMO is the heart or soul of the game. Making them bland, not so unique, will end up killing off this game.

I agree. I'm actually a big proponent of the opposite direction; class-less (and level-less) game systems. But in doing so, I acknowledge that class-based systems have some serious strengths, one of which is clear divisions between character roles. So I have to wonder why Blizzard is so gung-ho with this effort to make all of the classes so similar.

I get the whole 'bring the player, not the class' thing, they don't want players being excluded from content because of a choice they made 80 levels ago... but surely they're getting paid to design a game where each class' niche is comparable to the niches of others... instead of just doing away with niches entirely or watering them down to the point that they might as well not exist.

Ironically, there are so many cases where Blizzard more or less says "Get over it", but for some reason they seem intent on fixing what is a core fundamental of class-based systems; classes do different things other classes can't. That's why class systems work.

Lol, same.

I've got more gold on my main than I've ever had at any time in the 5 and a half years I've been playing WoW, and I barely play anymore. No dailies, no farming, I don't even run my daily random for weeks at a time... so I can't imagine how much cash people who do have right now... but I'm guessing it's quite a bit.

And training new mount skills has almost always been Blizzard's go-to gold sink. So yeah, I'd be very surprised if you can just mount up and fly around the day after Cataclysm.

That's a completely valid usage of the word.

Hmm, news to me. I even looked it up at wiki/google and didn't see anything about it. I mean, I understand the meaning, I've just never heard it used.

I can see game-breaker reasons you can't go faster than that though.

The game wasn't designed for players to move at 310% speed; as for flight in Old Azeroth, I would FULLY (rightfully so) expect that Hyjal, etc. (new zones) will have a Flight Zone restriction much like Wintergrasp used to. Probably due to the Nordrassil "magic."

If I'm using Crusader Aura, sometimes I out-fly resource nodes on the map; I fly right past them and then they appear on my radar after they've loaded. So yeah, they're not going to go any faster than that unless they ramp up flight paths, and that's not really something the player can control.

As for the second part, I'm fairly certain Deepholme is going to be all underground, so that will be sealed off except for a single entry way (which they may put a barrier around.) They've said we'll be able to fly in Deepholme, but they may put in some kind of attunement thing first.

Otherwise, yeah... I think there will still be lots of places you simply can't fly.

 

[VaLiancY]

310% isn't really that much faster than 280%.

I can see game-breaker reasons you can't go faster than that though.

The game wasn't designed for players to move at 310% speed; as for flight in Old Azeroth, I would FULLY (rightfully so) expect that Hyjal, etc. (new zones) will have a Flight Zone restriction much like Wintergrasp used to. Probably due to the Nordrassil "magic."

I'm not surprised at the speed. I'm just amazed they're offering it to everyone. It came from left field. I just thought the 310 speed mount were reserved for people who really grind to get that respective mount. I'm surprised there isn't even a little bit of backlash from the community but then again good thing. I'm getting tired of the space pony and class talents fiasco.

 

[Alex]

Maybe they could charge 25 dollars for it!

 

[notworksafe]

I've got more gold on my main than I've ever had at any time in the 5 and a half years I've been playing WoW, and I barely play anymore. No dailies, no farming, I don't even run my daily random for weeks at a time... so I can't imagine how much cash people who do have right now... but I'm guessing it's quite a bit.

Actually, continuing to play is what keeps me using gold. When you get a new piece of gear it can sometimes be up to 500g to gem and enchant it. It's not a lot, but it's something to sink gold into.

 

[Rapstah]

This is the rarest thing that's ever happened to me in an MMO:

Storming Vortex Bracers dropped from both of the first mobs in Halls of Lightning normal mode.

That's a 0.01% chance.

EDIT: And so that you don't have to say it: "LOL DRAENEI MALE CASTER", "LOL WYRMREST" and "LOL HOL WITH SUB-80S IN GROUP LOL".

 

[notworksafe]

This is the rarest thing that's ever happened to me in an MMO:

Storming Vortex Bracers dropped from both of the first mobs in Halls of Lightning normal mode.

http://i44.tinypic.com/skxdm0.jpg[IMG]

That's a 0.01% chance.
[/QUOTE]

LOL DRAENEI MALE CASTER
LOL WYRMREST
LOL HOL WITH SUB-80S IN GROUP LOL

But seriously, that is just crazy. Also, my priest was a Male Smurf for a long time so I understand the hate you get. Have you been running heroics at all or just normals? I recommend Heroic VH as a good one to start with. It was the first Heroic I did right after I turned 80 on both my Resto Shaman and Prot Paladin.

 

[Rapstah]

LOL DRAENEI MALE CASTER
LOL WYRMREST
LOL HOL WITH SUB-80S IN GROUP LOL

But seriously, that is just crazy. Also, my priest was a Male Smurf for a long time so I understand the hate you get. Have you been running heroics at all or just normals? I recommend Heroic VH as a good one to start with. It was the first Heroic I did right after I turned 80 on both my Resto Shaman and Prot Paladin.

Heroic was actually greyed out to even choose until I did a couple of normals (I think it may have been until I got my first emblem). I kind of want to get a feel for how and who I should heal and what certain boss fights are about.

I also did COT: Strat today and realized after I'd left that I forgot to turn in A Royal Escort... but that quest only turns in at Chromie AT THE END OF THE INSTANCE. I can't turn it in after leaving

 

[notworksafe]

Heroic was actually greyed out to even choose until I did a couple of normals (I think it may have been until I got my first emblem). I kind of want to get a feel for how and who I should heal and what certain boss fights are about.

I also did COT: Strat today and realized after I'd left that I forgot to turn in A Royal Escort... but that quest only turns in at Chromie AT THE END OF THE INSTANCE. I can't turn it in after leaving

So are you healing as Holy or Disc? Or just trying both before you decide?

 

[Rapstah]

So are you healing as Holy or Disc? Or just trying both before you decide?

I've been levelling as Holy so that's obviously what I'm the most used to, but I'm open to new specs if they're clearly more efficient. My current rotation seems to be PW: S followed by Prayer of Mending and if that doesn't hold until PW: S is ready again I'll just use Renew and Flash Heal to close the gaps. I don't really have any mana issues as long as my Shadowfiend CD is up - I could heal the entire King Ymiron fight earlier today after the tank died and we were dragging him around the room slowly eating away on his HP (we actually downed him like that, the tank was pissed off).

EDIT: And can I buy any PVE-friendly epic gear whatsoever for honor or do I have to get PVE emblems/badges/whatevers to buy PVE gear?

 

[notworksafe]

I've been levelling as Holy so that's obviously what I'm the most used to, but I'm open to new specs if they're clearly more efficient. My current rotation seems to be PW: S followed by Prayer of Mending and if that doesn't hold until PW: S is ready again I'll just use Renew and Flash Heal to close the gaps. I don't really have any mana issues as long as my Shadowfiend CD is up - I could heal the entire King Ymiron fight earlier today after the tank died and we were dragging him around the room slowly eating away on his HP (we actually downed him like that, the tank was pissed off).

EDIT: And can I buy any PVE-friendly epic gear whatsoever for honor or do I have to get PVE emblems/badges/whatevers to buy PVE gear?

They are just different healing styles. Holy is more direct actual healing and Disc is focused on damage mitigation instead. As far as gear goes it's pretty much PVE emblems for PVE gear and Honor/Arena Points for PVP gear.

 

[Bisnic]

You can buy epic PVP bracers 264 for like 43k Honor, they will last you for a long time, even for PVE.

 

[notworksafe]

The ToC crafted Boots/Bracers are good and cheap and ICC crafted legs and boots are BiS for many classes.

 

[FLEABttn]

This is going to be the death of this game.

Probably not. It'll be just another thing some small group of people complains about but nobody really quits over.

Class uniqueness also means dick if your class sucks.

As it is though, I think they probably have too many classes with too many rolls. It's hard for there to be complete uniqueness between 10 classes and 3 spec trees.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Um....holy shit, that's nice!

The resto druid in my 10m group spams too much Regrowth. She needs to be punished for it.

Seriously. It's crap she can get away with using the far less efficient spell just for shits n giggles.

 

[ShallNoiseUpon]

This is the rarest thing that's ever happened to me in an MMO:

Storming Vortex Bracers dropped from both of the first mobs in Halls of Lightning normal mode.

http://i44.tinypic.com/skxdm0.jpg[IMG]

That's a 0.01% chance.

EDIT: And so that you don't have to say it: "LOL DRAENEI MALE CASTER", "LOL WYRMREST" and "LOL HOL WITH SUB-80S IN GROUP LOL".[/QUOTE]


I totally forgot how massive that mace is.

 

[J-Rzez]

Probably not. It'll be just another thing some small group of people complains about but nobody really quits over.

Class uniqueness also means dick if your class sucks.

As it is though, I think they probably have too many classes with too many rolls. It's hard for there to be complete uniqueness between 10 classes and 3 spec trees.

It's a MMO though, it should be common reason to believe that classes are unique. You were advised to read about the summary of the classes when choosing what you're playing. I want classes to be and feel unique. I want it to be, well, we have this comp, what complements what we need? You can let each complement other specific classes and be fine. You shouldn't be punished for what you rolled, but good thing there are so many people out there playing different classes, and most people seem to have more than one level capped class anyways.

Hell, when I was doing 3's in arenas, my two other friends mains were DPS. One of us said, hey, I'll roll a healer, it's cool, it'll be fun.

This game is boiling down to TANK / HEALER / DPS, with very little uniqueness to be had.

Also... great idea giving Mages, who have the best CC in the game, yet another big CC, and Bloodlust with a movement speed increase as well. This is surely the end of arenas, and it's going to hinder BG's next. Hopefully though, it won't make it through beta. Kinda like how some classes are getting abilities that were axed out of Wrath in it's beta now though.

 

[mclem]

Just to dredge up a discussion from a couple of days ago:

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying "WoW should change because does not cater to my exact desires"... I'm just wondering out loud if anyone else feels the same way. We used to all log in, pour a drink and tear up 5-mans for fun... and now it seems like all of the dungeons are shorter, easier, and less interesting.

Zarhym has an interesting comment on that:

There's a level 85 five-player dungeon you might just learn about soon which holds seven bosses in a single instance.

It's not anything like BRD-large, but it sounds a good chunk bigger than anything has been since Vanilla.

 

[speedpop]

This is going to be the death of this game. It's getting disgusting now as is that they're making classes feel less special. And face it, the classes of a MMO is the heart or soul of the game. Making them bland, not so unique, will end up killing off this game.

I'm not too sure if I should be grabbing a tissue and crying about it right now though. I enjoy healing, but even I know the differences between all of them. Each class still brings their pros and cons to the table.

I have an 80 Shaman and Druid, a mid 60s Priest, and planning on rolling a Tauren Paladin. The 3 core healing processes they plan to give to each one is something I've been pining for in each of them; small-short cast, mid-cast, heavy-cast. That doesn't mean that they lose their other abilities like Druids with their HoTs or Shaman with the best AoE-heal in the game.

 

[Alex]

The homogenization here is really, really tame in the end. It's less a degeneration of the design and more a reality check of how far they can take stuff and keep it balanced up, which is still pretty far and it's been done pretty well. None of the classes play really anywhere near the same (hugely so compared to most O/MMORPGs and dungeon hacks) and the few round ups usually are met with a host of additions that just pull them right back.

Considering the amount of talents and abilities there are for 30 options of play, it's not even worth mentioning. It's really blown out of the water. I mean like the recent healer stuff, bitching that Shaman/Paladin/Priest all share this new triple heal model... because that's so much different than the dual heal model of Flash/Greater they were all packing in LK? The healing model and the way talents are being redone is so much bigger and so much cooler than just another samey heal being added. It's probably LESS homogenized than ever, even while lifting restrictions on niches. It's really neat.

The only real worry is if you are a fan of all of those unique buffs. Which no one really should be. WoW had far too many buffs spread across too many classes. It's unfortunate that the mantra of the game keeps out dedicated classes for these types of things, because I do miss some of the ol' support tanks from other genre stalwarts.

And yeah, the 5 man dungeons are too tame now. I also didn't really enjoy the design and theming as much as I did the ones in BC, but that's more of a personal thing. The vanilla set was the worst though, I only really enjoyed Dire Maul on a lasting level. That place had a ton of personality.

Hopefully the designs in Cataclysm eek more towards the BC fuctionality and risk/reward, although my wish list still includes a third "Legendary" setting or something.

 

[FLEABttn]

It's a MMO though, it should be common reason to believe that classes are unique... I want classes to be and feel unique.

Unique and 100% different aren't the same thing. Fury warriors hit things, rogues hit things, the sanctity of uniqueness has been violated!

I want it to be, well, we have this comp, what complements what we need?..and pretty much the rest of the post

Oh. This is a PvP complaint. =|





=|

 

[J-Rzez]

Unique and 100% different aren't the same thing. Fury warriors hit things, rogues hit things, the sanctity of uniqueness has been violated!

Oh. This is a PvP complaint. =|

=|

We're talking something "iconic" here like Bloodlust though. Not something stupid like, hit things. That has been an iconic ability, a real iconic ability, forever. But, it's funny though that Blizzard wouldn't let Shaman Ghost Wolf break snares because that's an iconic druid ability. I don't even have this class as an alt and I feel bad for Shamans everywhere. First their buffs were liquidated, now their ace in the hole has been taken away from them and given to a "pure" class that probably won't have it's DPS adjusted to make up for having such a powerful buff like Shamans are currently.

This goes for PVE too. Why bring a Shaman when you can bring a Mage that does more damage and has more survivability to boot? Yeah, you can say, "they'll tune it during beta and patches afterwards", but look at the track record.

Other classes are feeling this now too. "Death grip vs. Life grip", and apparently gargoyles vs valk thingies.

This homogenization has to cease now. It's gone "too far" already imho, and it's only pushing it further into obscurity. Eventually at this rate it's going to be at the character creation screen: "Choose your class: Tank, Healz, DPS". Level 85 grants you "Tri-spec" though, so you can do any of these later on!

 

[mclem]

First their buffs were liquidated, now their ace in the hole has been taken away from them and given to a "pure" class that probably won't have it's DPS adjusted to make up for having such a powerful buff like Shamans are currently.

Well, no. You don't adjust mage's DPS down; you shift shaman's DPS up. Not, I have to mention, that they've looked in all that bad a situation currently; with the latest patch, our elemental shamans at least are right up there in the rankings.

You can rail and rant all you like about wanting a class to feel 'special' - and believe me, you do - but if one class feels 'special', nine classes feel 'spurned'. So everyone needs to feel 'special'. But - and here's the absolutely *massive* but - all ten classes need to feel 'special' in a way that is both useful to all their specs *and* balanced between each other bit of 'special'ness. *AND* there must be special care taken that their specialness doesn't have synergy with another bit of specialness to make that particular pairing, uh, super-special.

It's an incredibly delicate balancing act, and one of the ways you do it is by spreading out some of the specialness which has good synergy.

You know what? I'm *really* looking forward to the paladin bubble nerf that's been mentioned. That's been our 'special' feature for far too long. Sure, it's an iconic part of the class, and I've found it extremely useful in many situations, but it's also held us back in many ways. On top of that, while it's useful for *me*, it doesn't offer all that much in the way of awesome synergy.

 

[Retro]

Class uniqueness also means dick if your class sucks.

Well, who's fault is that? It's not the player's fault that the description Blizzard provided sounded cool when he was new to the game, or that his class has been compromised in the interim. If a class sucks dick, it's Blizzard's fault, plain and simple.

It's completely realistic that a player wants his favorite class to have a purpose and several things that make them unique (unique does not mean better, of course). Having classes means providing clear definitions between them and ensuring they remain as close to balanced as possible. If a class sucks, we can hardly blame the players.

As it is though, I think they probably have too many classes with too many rolls. It's hard for there to be complete uniqueness between 10 classes and 3 spec trees.

I agree. I've said for years that Hunters and Rogues should be a single class (Stealth tree / Combat tree / Ranged tree) with their pets scaled back slightly. It sounds insane now given the 5 years they've been separate classes, but it's do-able. Paladins and priests could also have been merged, though that's a trickier prospect.

As I said above, I actually think classless systems are better in some cases, but that's my personal opinion. Classes are useful too, and I don't think they need to go away any time soon... but classes also have the potential for specific classes to fall short and suck.

It's not anything like BRD-large, but it sounds a good chunk bigger than anything has been since Vanilla.

Yeah, I saw that... I'm looking forward to it, and hope it's not just 7 bosses jammed into a bunch of tiny rooms. We'll see.

 

[FLEABttn]

I agree. I've said for years that Hunters and Rogues should be a single class (Stealth tree / Combat tree / Ranged tree) with their pets scaled back slightly. It sounds insane now given the 5 years they've been separate classes, but it's do-able. Paladins and priests could also have been merged, though that's a trickier prospect.

I sort of had some ideas like that. Kill off DK's and Warlocks entirely, merge rogue and hunter, and kill off one of the three branches for each class. Hunter Marksman or Combat. Warrior is Arms or Prot. Paladin is Prot or Holy. Druid is Balance or Resto. Priest is Disc or Shadow. Shaman is Resto or Enhancement, etc etc. Streamlines loot and has "only" 14 or so effective classes, instead of ~30.

edit, actually, instead of killing off warlocks entirely, just merge them with mages. Fire or Arcane and whatever the DoT tree is for the lock.

You know what? I'm *really* looking forward to the paladin bubble nerf that's been mentioned. That's been our 'special' feature for far too long. Sure, it's an iconic part of the class, and I've found it extremely useful in many situations, but it's also held us back in many ways. On top of that, while it's useful for *me*, it doesn't offer all that much in the way of awesome synergy.

I want them to get rid of it because half the time it causes wipes in raids or encourages our paladins to be lazy <.<

 

[mclem]

Yeah, I saw that... I'm looking forward to it, and hope it's not just 7 bosses jammed into a bunch of tiny rooms. We'll see.

It's crossed my mind that *technically* Violet Hold is also a 7-boss instance; I do hope they're not doing any sneaking playing around with semantics like that. Given the context, though, I doubt it.

 

[mclem]

I sort of had some ideas like that. Kill off DK's and Warlocks entirely, merge rogue and hunter, and kill off one of the three branches for each class. Hunter Marksman or Combat. Warrior is Arms or Prot. Paladin is Prot or Holy. Druid is Balance or Resto. Priest is Disc or Shadow. Shaman is Resto or Enhancement, etc etc. Streamlines loot and has "only" 14 or so effective classes, instead of ~30.

That wouldn't quite work; every class needs a DPS option. That design would put paladins close to how they were in Vanilla, albeit also viable tanks.

 

[Retro]

I sort of had some ideas like that. Kill off DK's and Warlocks entirely, merge rogue and hunter, and kill off one of the three branches for each class. Hunter Marksman or Combat. Warrior is Arms or Prot. Paladin is Prot or Holy. Druid is Balance or Resto. Priest is Disc or Shadow. Shaman is Resto or Enhancement, etc etc. Streamlines loot and has "only" 14 or so effective classes, instead of ~30.

edit, actually, instead of killing off warlocks entirely, just merge them with mages. Fire or Arcane and whatever the DoT tree is for the lock.

I actually don't mind DKs or Locks, though if I were running things their implementation might be a bit different.

Rather than exist as a melee-centric class, DKs would be the "Battlemage" class, with a mix of close-range magic and melee abilities, as well as a few long range nukes. The trees would go something like Melee-centric DPS/ Range-centric DPS/ Tank.

I'd give Warlocks heals. OMGWTFBBQ? No, really. Talents would be DoT & pet tree / Ranged DPS tree / Healing tree. Their healing, however, would be radically different from anything in WoW right now; lots spirit-link like abilities to spread the damage around, take it onto themselves, and then heal it away with lifetaps. Rather than "Press button, target is healed", it'd be "Press button, target takes damage, damage is redirected to warlock, warlock self-heals it away". They fucking suck peoples' souls out, that'd be perfect. The pets would play a role in healing as well (use your void walker to soak up pain and then kill him off to wash it away)

Rogue and Hunter would be merged, of course. Ranged tree / Combat Tree / Stealth tree. Stealth tree would use pets to distract enemies, would have all of the trimmings of rogues (poisons, stealth attacks, evasion) plus traps. Ranged tree would be the Beast Mastery tree as well, real emphasis on using pets the way Hunters do now. Combat tree would be a Melee-centric tree, sort of Combat rogue-oriented. Would be the only way for the class to wear Mail, would add cool close-range shots, and talents specific to working closely with your pet.

I'd leave warriors about the same, but take some of the abilities DKs would have to lose in order to incorporate more ranged skills.

I'd merge Paladins into Priests, maybe. Healing Tree / Protection Tree / Support & Melee tree. Prot tree would be the traditional paladins, Healing tree the traditional priests, the support & melee tree a mixture of Disc and Ret to form a "monk" class.

Not sure what else I'd do with the others. But I mean, I'm just tossing ideas out, that's not what I WOULD do... just something they COULD do. In all honesty, I'd just use this; http://level-1-design.blogspot.com/2009/07/triangular-logic.html#tri. But that's because I came up with it, so... take that how you will.

You know what? I'm *really* looking forward to the paladin bubble nerf that's been mentioned. That's been our 'special' feature for far too long. Sure, it's an iconic part of the class, and I've found it extremely useful in many situations, but it's also held us back in many ways. On top of that, while it's useful for *me*, it doesn't offer all that much in the way of awesome synergy.

There's too many problems with the way the Bubble was implemented. The biggest and most obvious of which is, everything a Paladin does has to be balanced around the fact that he basically has two lives instead of one.

I'd rather see the bubble turned into a super-short duration (1-2 second, or even after a single hit) defensive maneuver with a semi-long CD (30-45 seconds, which seems to be what blizzard things is dead on for abilities). You see an enemy about to cast some nuke at you, pop it and the spell is absorbed. The enemy can stop casting and wait 2 seconds if they're good, and it doesn't give the paladin total immunity for 12 seconds.

 

[ampere]

Rather than exist as a melee-centric class, DKs would be the "Battlemage" class, with a mix of close-range magic and melee abilities, as well as a few long range nukes. The trees would go something like Melee-centric DPS/ Range-centric DPS/ Tank.

Enhancement Shamans are already the 'Battlemage' spec though. Quick burst melee with a smattering of spells.

 

[Retro]

Enhancement Shamans are already the 'Battlemage' spec though. Quick burst melee with a smattering of spells.

Right, so I'm not sure what I'd do. Like I said, just throwing out ideas for the sake of idle conversation. If I had to take a stab it in 20 seconds of thinking? Push the ranged damage almost completely into a specific spec, make Enhancement less caster-y... more spirit wolf-like effects. Healing Tree / Caster tree / Melee & Pet tree. I'd envision them as being less heavy in combat as DKs, having something more like hit-and-run tactics.

But I can already see lots of holes in that, so... like I said, I'm just blathering on for shits and giggles at this point. Not like WoW will ever radically change anyways. So, nobody take this stuff personally and say "DUDE, My class is not xyz, stfu I hat u". :lol

 

[FLEABttn]

That wouldn't quite work; every class needs a DPS option. That design would put paladins close to how they were in Vanilla, albeit also viable tanks.

Need is a relative term. Prot is a completely valid and, dare I say, efficient way to level. Even without instancing. Even without grinding. There are a number of pure DPS classes that level slower than a prot paladin does (rogues, for one, and they're also the least played class). The only people it would dissuade from playing the class are the FotMers, and I don't think anyone would miss them.

This is all purely hypothetical, of course. None of this could happen because it's really hard to get the genie back into the bottle.

 

[Sciz]

Right, so I'm not sure what I'd do. Like I said, just throwing out ideas for the sake of idle conversation. If I had to take a stab it in 20 seconds of thinking? Push the ranged damage almost completely into a specific spec, make Enhancement less caster-y... more spirit wolf-like effects. Healing Tree / Caster tree / Melee & Pet tree. I'd envision them as being less heavy in combat as DKs, having something more like hit-and-run tactics.

Enhancement doesn't do any significant "ranged damage" as is. About half the spec's damage is magical, no more than half of that is done by actual ranged spells, and very little of it is ever actually cast at range. We don't even touch lava burst. D:

 

[Swag]

So what do you guys think the Legendaries are going to be in Cataclysm, I'm hoping for a tank Sword / Axe / Mace doesn't seem like there's been a tank legendary since Thunderfury.

 

[Retro]

Enhancement doesn't do any significant "ranged damage" as is. About half the spec's damage is magical, no more than half of that is done by actual ranged spells, and very little of it is ever actually cast at range. We don't even touch lava burst. D:

I haven't played a shaman past level 30 and I think it shows. I guess in my mind "Battlemage" is Plate Armor, two-handed sword, nuking the shit out of and then beating the shit out of everything. With the exception of the plate armor and the sword, that sounds like Shamans, I guess.

I'm probably going to roll a shaman for shits and giggles here pretty soon. I'm probably gonna farm up the last of that Purple Judgment set from TBC Heroics and then try out a Tauren... I have this fear that I won't be used to their animations by the time I want to roll a Cowadin... they've always struck me as kind of slow and sluggish, but I know that's just to keep them paced to smaller races' run speeds.

 

[sykoex]

So what do you guys think the Legendaries are going to be in Cataclysm, I'm hoping for a tank Sword / Axe / Mace doesn't seem like there's been a tank legendary since Thunderfury.

Yeah I'd like a tank legendary very much. And to solve the problem of Druids and DK tanks using diff weapon types, just make it like Battered Hilt where you choose what weapon form you want it in. Hell, maybe a unique proc based on which tank class you are (with a somewhat more visual proc for druids since they can't see the actual weapon in bear form).

 

[mclem]

Part of me thinks a tank legendary ought to be a shield rather than a weapon, but that kinda screws things up for DKs and druids. Maybe a choice, as mentioned above?

I do wonder if they're deliberately nervous about doing tank legendaries because, while a DPS legendary might boost the DPS of 1 of 18 people, and a healing legendary might boost the heal output of 1 of 6 people, in many fights the tank legendary would increase the survivability of one person or one of two people, which might be tough to balance around; the tanks are a highly focussed potential point of failure, and reducing the risk on the tanks lucky enough to get the legendary too much might make it too powerful - but if they don't do that reduction, it'll feel weedy.

 

[mclem]

Need is a relative term. Prot is a completely valid and, dare I say, efficient way to level. Even without instancing. Even without grinding. There are a number of pure DPS classes that level slower than a prot paladin does (rogues, for one, and they're also the least played class). The only people it would dissuade from playing the class are the FotMers, and I don't think anyone would miss them.

Oh, yes. I levelled as a holy/prot hybrid in TBC, and as pure prot in Wrath, and had no problems. It's more the fact that every class needs a DPS spec because every class already has a DPS spec, and any proposed changes which could basically boil down to telling people "If you want to DPS, you'd better reroll" are a no-no.

Mind you, explicitly forcing all paladins into a tanking or healing role would do wonderful things to the dungeon finder!

 

[Sciz]

I haven't played a shaman past level 30 and I think it shows. I guess in my mind "Battlemage" is Plate Armor, two-handed sword, nuking the shit out of and then beating the shit out of everything. With the exception of the plate armor and the sword, that sounds like Shamans, I guess.

Yeah, that'd explain it. Enhance doesn't really become a proper battlemage spec until Maelstrom Weapon comes along, at which point the lightning nukes and the odd healing spell become a critical part of combat.