Support NeoGAF

[Knightime_X]

Keep them as they are, but more abundant.
That way you don't have to start all over again if you do something wrong or simply forgot.

 

[RiccochetJ]

I don't recall Souls games being too grindy for materials outside of Demon's Souls and having to farm that jerk red eyed skeleton in world 4.

 

[NeverYouMind]

So a big pet peeve of mine with the souls game is how stingy they can be with upgrade materials. In Dark souls 1 by playing the game normally you will likely find enough materials to upgrade 2 normal weapon's (sword and shield) and maybe a dark knight weapon. If you want more you will have to go grind for an unreasonable amount of time. The other game's are similar although Elden ring and I think dark souls 2 give you the most through playing naturally.

Now I think there are upside's to this. It forces you to make hard choice's and stick it out so to speak. These are meant to be challenging games, forcing you to beat the game with a sub optimal weapons will feel all the more satisfying. In multiplayer ( which I don't play much ) finally getting a good build will feel more special and give you an advantage for at least a little bit longer.

On the other hand it can make mid game and especially late game exploration rather boring. All the new weapons you find are meaningless because you will have to spend a bunch of time leveling them up. I choose to be a mage for first time ever in Elden ring because at least I could find new spells that would be useful throughout the whole game.

My 2 solutions are either remove them entirely or drastically reduce time investment for materials. I think builds are still important so capping weapons to the players level stats will stop players from being able to use everything. Making materials more abundant and cheaper (Like Elden ring did and but going further) is the other option maybe making them far cheaper to obtain in NG+ as a nice middle ground.

I am more bothered by the requirement to wield weapons, as opposed to planning a quest to max them out. However, I do think it should not take more than 20 items to max out a weapon. Elden Ring standard weapon upgrade material requirements are excessive (8[2+4+6]+1 = 97). In contrast, it is a walk in the park to max out the unique weapons (10[1] = 10).

 

[The artful mincer]

I have never understood the point of allowing you to level up in an action game, full stop. I simply don't get it.

Why make a super hard game whose very essence is its challenge and uncompromising nature, and then allow you to make it easy if you just spend a day or so of total boredom grinding out upgrades?

At that point you might as well just have difficulty options. But this bizarre settlement seems to be everywhere in games and no one seems to question it. Just yesterday someone was saying how they manage to beat Horizon on ultra hard by levelling up certain weapons and skills etc - what's the point? "I'm going to beat this on hard because I'm super hardcore and I'll do it by making it easier!"

It's like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I see where your coming from Hunnybun! Once one realize its all just numbers going up you can wonder why not just balance the game over a fixed damage rate and cut to the chance.

A couple things though

The first thing though is exploration.I think players want to be rewarded for exploring and if there's nothing to find in the environment that can help you it starts to feel very hollow. E.g. In Kena most of the stuff you find is cosmetic and the exploration gets really dull despite the game looking beautiful.In souls games exploring is a way to level the playing field which I think is satisfying.

Secondly souls has the whole err souls thing where you have the risk reward of losing them. They have to to be worth something otherwise that goes out the window.

Having said that I think souls games could still work in theory if you got rid of upgrade materials but kept everything elese. The souls would still level up your character and gatekeep more powerful weapons to higher stats to remain meaningful.

Exploration would still be fun as you would find new weapons with different movesets which is more interesting than just numbers going up.

 

[The artful mincer]

I experiment but I dont upgrade all of them lmao.

Right but's it's annoying if you find a weapon you really like but can't use because you have to spend a bunch of time upgrading it.

 

[The artful mincer]

but that's what makes RPGs what they are.
you're not supposed to be able to just easily change your character in a drastic way,
part of the game is to plan your progression, to choose wisely, to plan what kind of character you want to build.

I get that but souls is overly stingy. E.g. if I've made a strength build maybe I should be allowed to use all the ultra greatswords at least.

it's only once you go out of that core design of the game, and you want to play every weapon, and have multiple characters n stuff that it becomes grindy.

Right I do! At the very least after a first playthrough I just want to try different weapons and I don't want spend a stupid amount of time doing it. Maybe the NG+ economy can be different to accommodate both.

but complaining about that is like the people that complained how there are too many shrines and too many Korok seeds in Breath of the Wild...
you're not supposed to do them all, the game is designed in a way that you can stumble upon them naturally, and in a way that you don't need to find/do them all in order to improve your character and/or get food stuff.

Well I can't comment on Breath of the wild but souls game weapon and build variety is fun to experiment with beyond the first playthrough.

the PvP in Souls games is where this grinding comes into play, but PvP in Souls games was also originally only always a side thing, which a small amount of players turned into their main draw to the game, even tho it's not meant to be that.

Not too fussed abou the multiplayer either way

 

[The Cockatrice]

Right but's it's annoying if you find a weapon you really like but can't use because you have to spend a bunch of time upgrading it.

I like all weapons in From games. Pretty sure, everyone does. Thats the beauty and charm of the game. Every weapon can be strong, and every weapon ca feel nice to play and yes that includes even the long sword. Hell a flaming longsword was all I used in one of the 3 dark souls in one of my playthroughs.

 

[cireza]

I don't like these in my action games :
- leveling up
- inventory management
- crafting
- skill trees

Simply give me a handful of meaningful choices, weapons and skills. Sekiro did it fine, so I am glad this game exists. People enjoy all of this stuff, so no reason to take this away from Souls like games.

Still, I would enjoy a lot an action game with the simplicity of Sekiro but in the dark medieval setting of Dark Souls. Something closer to Hexen, in a way. 3 classes, 4 weapons and you are good to go.

 

[Cert.in.Death]

Games that make you work for optimal equipment are far more enjoyable than ones that give you everything as you go.

 

[ZVWQP-9B8TM-VH9CT]

Try Mortal Shell, it's a straightforward souls-like without upgrading or crafting, just straight to the combat and exploration, there are the "shells" that are bodies with different stats but that's it. I personally liked it a lot, but seems like it had mixed receptions tho...

nice game indeed

 

[March Climber]

I have never understood the point of allowing you to level up in an action game, full stop. I simply don't get it.

Why make a super hard game whose very essence is its challenge and uncompromising nature, and then allow you to make it easy if you just spend a day or so of total boredom grinding out upgrades?

At that point you might as well just have difficulty options. But this bizarre settlement seems to be everywhere in games and no one seems to question it. Just yesterday someone was saying how they manage to beat Horizon on ultra hard by levelling up certain weapons and skills etc - what's the point? "I'm going to beat this on hard because I'm super hardcore and I'll do it by making it easier!"

It's like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I mostly agree with this sentiment when it comes to first person and third person shooters. It's very aggravating in a shooter campaign when you're shooting well and have good aim and map awareness but the game is not only telling you that you're doing moot damage, it also insults you by making the enemy A.I. walk right up to you and kill you in a few blows while they tank through that damage.

I'm saying this to say that The Division would have been a way better game the way it was originally pitched, but instead the first one became a grind and looter shooter and then the second one doubled down on this. A lot of people just wanted a difficult survival shooter set in snowy New York.

 

[Ogbert]

I think Souls games would benefit from clearer build craft and weapon upgrading.

The tedious and opaque design is getting old hat.

 

[Danjin44]

I don't like these in my action games :
- leveling up
- inventory management
- crafting
- skill trees

Then play action game and not RPG, games like Elden Ring and Dark Souls are RPG while Sekiro is an action game.

 

[cireza]

Elden Ring and Dark Souls are RPG

I am going to respectfully disagree with this.

If it troubles you that much, you can replace the bolded part by "in my RPGs". Exactly the same. Don't waste my time with non-choices.

 

[skit_data]

Grindy?
All of the recent From Software games had reasonable drop rate/locations with upgrade materials.

The Pure Bladestone in the original PS3 Demon’s Souls, that’s grindy upgrade material. I probably killed that skeleton at least 500 times before it dropped, if not more.
Missed a Crystal Lizard spawn carrying that one chunk you need to upgrade your weapon? Tough luck, see you in next NG cycle.

 

[lyan]

Grinding in Souls never makes the game easy. Just slightly easier and it's a waste of time anyway. The grind time would be much better spent getting better at the game itself.

The little difference a level give may make it appear so. But these games have a very short time-to-kill for both sides, so the difference could mean you can now finish off an enemy unleashing your full stamina bar through increased damage per hit, and/or dealing more hits, which can drastically reduce each encounter's difficulty, especially when defensive options consume the same resource bar.

 

[Ceadeus]

Yes, grinding scraps is an old mechanic by now. Secrets, puzzles and exploration should be how you find your gear. Locked chest, secret rooms, secondary bosses etc

 

[Danjin44]

I am going to respectfully disagree with this.

If it troubles you that much, you can replace the bolded part by "in my RPGs". Exactly the same. Don't waste my time with non-choices.

Ummm....I mean you can "respectfully disagree" all you want but the fact is they are RPGs, both by the players and developers themselves.

 

[cireza]

Ummm....I mean you can "respectfully disagree" all you want but the fact is they are RPGs, both by the players and developers themselves.

I couldn't care less. Put the game in whatever category you see fit if it makes you happy. As far as I am concerned, all these games are what I call "Adventure" games and that's it.

However, whatever the "category" is, I don't want these games to waste my time with hundreds of similar items that don't change anything on how I play, levels where I upgrade stats without any idea of what the long term effect is, crafting that is again a waste of time while I could be directly picking the crafted items, inventory management that sucks and has me move around stuff all the time and so on etc...

If an RPG is a term that justifies having your time wasted over bloated, repetitive content, then awesome. As far as I am concerned, whatever the genre, be it RPG, action-game, platformer or shmups, I don't want my time wasted with non-choices and tedious actions.

 

[AV]

The little difference a level give may make it appear so. But these games have a very short time-to-kill for both sides, so the difference could mean you can now finish off an enemy unleashing your full stamina bar through increased damage per hit, and/or dealing more hits, which can drastically reduce each encounter's difficulty, especially when defensive options consume the same resource bar.

I didn't say levelling was a waste of time, I said grinding was a waste of time. Those stat improvements do help greatly but you (generally) need them later in the game rather than earlier on. Getting too powerful at the beginning isn't gonna help you much later when those stat improvements become near meaningless, it won't solve the game as a whole.

 

[lyan]

I didn't say levelling was a waste of time, I said grinding was a waste of time. Those stat improvements do help greatly but you (generally) need them later in the game rather than earlier on. Getting too powerful at the beginning isn't gonna help you much later when those stat improvements become near meaningless, it won't solve the game as a whole.

But the point of this thread, grinding for materials to upgrade, does the same thing as leveling and makes a huge difference as it change the number of hits things can take, as well as improving the stability for shields. The game's stamina system makes small numeric difference matters and deceive/reward the average player in thinking it is all their skill/git gud.

 

[The artful mincer]

So currently replaying elden ring. Its still as incredible as everyone says however I don't think I've played such a good game with so many flaws.

Anyway about the smithing stones....

I was polite first time but I can't be this time. This system is complete fucking ass I even struggle to see how anyone can defend it.

Honestly the Somber stone system is fine if it was just them and there were wayyyyy more of them I probably wouldn't complain but the standard ones Jesus Christ.

I'am at the capital and cleaned up basically everything elese. I'am playing a strength powertance build my best weapons are all level 8 or level 20 depending on stone type. I have 6 weapons upgraded to a reasonable level but I am powerstancing so I am basically restricted to 3 movsets.

These fucking stones have basically killed the combat variety and the exploration nothing I have discovered for about 10 to 15 hours has been exciting. Firstly about 80% of stuff I find I can't use beacuse of my build. I am not too fussed by this as this is an rpg however what about the other 20% my build can use...

Well if I have weapon that uses standard weapon stones I have spend about 100,000 runes and God knows how many stones getting it up to my current weapons level. Not to mention running back and forth from the blacksmith and that stupid fucking statue. Why the fuck couldn't the blacksmith sell them?

Seriously how is this anything other than time wasting busy work that ubisoft would be proud of.

This video suggests that instead of stones the player could find items that would allow the blacksmith to upgrade all weapons to certain point



How anyone would prefer the current stone system to this I have no idea you must hate fun.

 

[Bernardougf]

Go play elden ring .. upgrade material is dirty cheap and you can buy them in droves ... elden ring has been dumb down for you my friend and it sucks for it

 

[The artful mincer]

Go play elden ring .. upgrade material is dirty cheap and you can buy them in droves ... elden ring has been dumb down for you my friend and it sucks for it

This literally has nothing to do with game difficulty and everything to do with game variety.

The combat in souls is simple you can beat all the games with the starting weapon and using 1 attack this is boring. It would be less boring if its crazy weapon and build variety was more accessible.

The upgrades in elden ring are the best it's been but it's still shit. For anyone elese saying it's fine in elden ring know it fucking isn't. Here how I would rank each souls upgrade system.

The shit souls weapon upgrade system league!

1. Demon Souls - Complete shit the worse
2. Bloodborne and Dark souls 3- Only slightly less shit than Demon Souls
3. Dark souls 1 - Black Knight weapons etc are slightly easier to upgrade making this less shit than Bloodborne and DS3.
4. Darks Souls 2 - Moderately less shit than all the above. Was somewhat simple to fully upgrade about 4 to 5 weapons.
5. Elden ring - Easily the least shit but being knee deep in shit is only slightly better than being neck deep and very far away from being good.

 

[KungFucius]

Grinding for anything is utter bullshit. It is disrespectful of the gamer's time and it is fucking lazy. Why the fuck would anyone actually think it is fun to go farm rare items to upgrade something? These lazy ass devs are out of touch with their customers. Just because a tiny fraction likes to spend dozens of hours playing games, it doesn't mean it is OK to add dozens of hours of repetitive bullshit. It is a fucking chore and these shitheads love the idea of forcing people to waste hours in their game doing menial labor. It's probably driven by publishers looking to see the game length discussed as X hours to do the story, 10x hours to do everything when most of the everything is copy paste bullshit.

 

[RoboFu]

Grinding for anything is utter bullshit. It is disrespectful of the gamer's time and it is fucking lazy. Why the fuck would anyone actually think it is fun to go farm rare items to upgrade something? These lazy ass devs are out of touch with their customers. Just because a tiny fraction likes to spend dozens of hours playing games, it doesn't mean it is OK to add dozens of hours of repetitive bullshit. It is a fucking chore and these shitheads love the idea of forcing people to waste hours in their game doing menial labor. It's probably driven by publishers looking to see the game length discussed as X hours to do the story, 10x hours to do everything when most of the everything is copy paste bullshit.

I find grinding fun most of the time.
Gives a sense of accomplishment. I hate shallow games with no upgrade system.. it’s like what’s the point?

 

[Ansphn]

Souls game do not need to get easier. Elden Ring is already the easiest souls game.

 

[bbeach123]

Souls game had so many outdated mechanics .

Press a button to switch spell/item, press another button to use them...

Spell/weapons arts using mana , and then you had to press a button to switch to mana potions, press another button to drink mana potion... Can they just using ability cooldown timer like GOW hello ? The reason I rarely use spell/ability in elden ring.

 

[kurisu_1974]

I prefer finding some upgrade materials instead of a bow that will break after three uses.

 

[zombrex]

The souls games give you plenty of materials for a normal and balanced playthrough.
They do not intend you grind for weapons as even base stat weapons are completely viable to beat the games.
Grinding is an after you beat the game thing if you want max out lots of different weapons and sets.
Players also tend to think they know better than devs who have put countless hours of effort into balance systms like these. If you give too many drops players will be incentivised to just grind rather than try and progress naturally through learning patterns and skills.

 

[The artful mincer]

Souls game do not need to get easier. Elden Ring is already the easiest souls game.

Again this has very little to do with difficulty and more to do with being bored by being forced to use the same weapon for 40 hours

 

[The artful mincer]

Souls game had so many outdated mechanics .

Press a button to switch spell/item, press another button to use them...

Spell/weapons arts using mana , and then you had to press a button to switch to mana potions, press another button to drink mana potion... Can they just using ability cooldown timer like GOW hello ? The reason I rarely use spell/ability in elden ring.

Yep! Another big one is running off to chug health in a middle of boss fight. Really breaks the flow of a fight. Funny since bloodbornes rally mechanic was a pretty good solution.

Trigger time but Ragnaroks boss fights were so much more balanced and more difficult than eldens ring its not even funny.

 

[The artful mincer]

The souls games give you plenty of materials for a normal and balanced playthrough.
They do not intend you grind for weapons as even base stat weapons are completely viable to beat the games.
Grinding is an after you beat the game thing if you want max out lots of different weapons and sets.
Players also tend to think they know better than devs who have put countless hours of effort into balance systms like these. If you give too many drops players will be incentivised to just grind rather than try and progress naturally through learning patterns and skills.

The last thing I would say about Elden ring is that's its balanced.

It psychotically goes from one extreme to the other. Your either to weak that you die in one or two hits making learning boss attack patterns an absolute chore.Or your so OP you one shot them without learning anything it's very rare that the difficulty feels right.

I struggle to see that in a game about discovery why I can't use a cool new weapon I just found beacuse I've run out of smithing stones? Why bother searching every nook and cranny to find nothing useful I might as well bee line straight to the boss.

It not even consistent within the game. Spell casters can use every spell they find you can freely change up a good amount of Ashes of wars. Why are melee players forced to stick it out with about 4 or 5 weapons on a single playthrough?

Game developers aren't gods they don't know everything They respond to player criticism all the time this is mine.

 

[Lasha]

I have never understood the point of allowing you to level up in an action game, full stop. I simply don't get it.

Why make a super hard game whose very essence is its challenge and uncompromising nature, and then allow you to make it easy if you just spend a day or so of total boredom grinding out upgrades?

At that point you might as well just have difficulty options. But this bizarre settlement seems to be everywhere in games and no one seems to question it. Just yesterday someone was saying how they manage to beat Horizon on ultra hard by levelling up certain weapons and skills etc - what's the point? "I'm going to beat this on hard because I'm super hardcore and I'll do it by making it easier!"

It's like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Souls titles allows you to upgrade or gimp yourself as you see fit as an organic way to allow a player to choose difficulty while maintaining the same level of challenge for everybody. Horizon/GOW's harder difficulties are balanced around New Game+. They can be beaten as a fresh player but they are balanced around characters with stuff already unlocked. The souls method is preferable but I still find it silly. Sekiro remains my favorite due to its removal of most "progression" mechanics.

 

[nemiroff]

Keep the materials, include a mechanism to transfer between items. Why is it so easy to do a complete character stat reroll, but reusing stones is not.

 

[Ansphn]

Again this has very little to do with difficulty and more to do with being bored by being forced to use the same weapon for 40 hours

You can use other weapons that are slightly weaker. Grinding is a huge part of why the Souls games are great. You have to earn everything.

 

[R6Rider]

Souls game do not need to get easier. Elden Ring is already the easiest souls game.

Nah, that title belongs to Demon's Souls.

 

[Ansphn]

Nah, that title belongs to Demon's Souls.

Demon souls did not have mimic

 

[R6Rider]

Demon souls did not have mimic

Still easier.

Especially if you used Firestorm.

 

[Ansphn]

Still easier.

Especially if you used Firestorm.

I'll have to disagree. When I play, I rarely use magic. Demon souls solo is much harder than Elden Ring when you can just run away from some encounters and use a high level mimic = co-op all the time..

 

[rofif]

No. It has to be there. It is at least some progression and a reason to explore.
That's why I don't consider Sekiro a souls game (unlike bloodborne)... Sekiro levels you up but it's just linear progression after bosses

 

[kvltus lvlzvs]

I'd actually like more refinement to weapons. You know how in cod or whatever you can trick out your weapon with different rails, scopes, etc? If they could do something like that in a souls game it would be cool. Maybe slight tweaks to the moveset, etc.

I'd also be cool with an optional bigger grind endgame. Like, get your weapon to +10/+25 (depending) and then you can do other shit with it.

Also, I miss armor upgrades from DS1. They could do cool stuff with that.

That being said, Im perfectly fine with it the way it is, and doing what I am daydreaming about could seriously fuck up the whole game if done wrong lmao, Im not the from devs, just some rando fromdrone on the interwebs.

 

[The artful mincer]

No. It has to be there. It is at least some progression and a reason to explore.
That's why I don't consider Sekiro a souls game (unlike bloodborne)... Sekiro levels you up but it's just linear progression after bosses

There is plenty of other cool stuff to find aside from the upgrade stones. That's the problem though all that cool shit you found is meaningless cause you have too upgrade them which requires grinding. (Once you found all the stones in the environment.)

 

[The artful mincer]

Keep the materials, include a mechanism to transfer between items. Why is it so easy to do a complete character stat reroll, but reusing stones is not.

Would be better but that would still require a bunch of clowning about not having fun. I would rather have the ability to just upgrade more weapons so if I'am bored with my current weapon I can just go in a menu and change it as opposed to sodding off to the blacksmith for 5 minutes.

 

[Bernardougf]

This literally has nothing to do with game difficulty and everything to do with game variety.

The combat in souls is simple you can beat all the games with the starting weapon and using 1 attack this is boring. It would be less boring if its crazy weapon and build variety was more accessible.

The upgrades in elden ring are the best it's been but it's still shit. For anyone elese saying it's fine in elden ring know it fucking isn't. Here how I would rank each souls upgrade system.

The shit souls weapon upgrade system league!

1. Demon Souls - Complete shit the worse
2. Bloodborne and Dark souls 3- Only slightly less shit than Demon Souls
3. Dark souls 1 - Black Knight weapons etc are slightly easier to upgrade making this less shit than Bloodborne and DS3.
4. Darks Souls 2 - Moderately less shit than all the above. Was somewhat simple to fully upgrade about 4 to 5 weapons.
5. Elden ring - Easily the least shit but being knee deep in shit is only slightly better than being neck deep and very far away from being good.

I guess you are a little bitch who likes to have things handed to you ... play more.. cry less

 

[Knightime_X]

It only gets annoying when you want to upgrade several things to their highest level in a single play through, but you don't have enough resources.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

The last thing I would say about Elden ring is that's its balanced.

It psychotically goes from one extreme to the other. Your either to weak that you die in one or two hits making learning boss attack patterns an absolute chore.Or your so OP you one shot them without learning anything it's very rare that the difficulty feels right.

I struggle to see that in a game about discovery why I can't use a cool new weapon I just found beacuse I've run out of smithing stones? Why bother searching every nook and cranny to find nothing useful I might as well bee line straight to the boss.

Ding ding ding!

Let’s be honest, you can really have no idea how good a weapon is going to turn out before it’s had a hefty number of upgrades already. Some weapons in Souls only reveal their S-rank stat boost with the final upgrade.
Sure, some will object that the plain sword you can buy from a merchant half a mile from the starting point of the game can‘t possibly become the best weapon in the game, and you’d be dumb to believe so. Right! But in these games you can take so many different paths. It may take you 3 or 30 hours to stumble upon what could reasonably become your weapon of choice. And even if you can find it early on, the materials to upgrade it may lie on a path you won’t take for a long while. Meanwhile, you’re stuck with inferior weapons that you absolutely have to upgrade at some point to stand a chance. And that takes money and materials.

It’s not easy to balance this stuff, but one thing is certain: From never really tried.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It's not really that "grindy" unless you want to overpower your character too early on.

There is plenty to be had under normal progression when you reach said locations, and the limited top end (gear maxing) items add a layer of strategy to the game design as well for the player. Especially with multiple approaches to achieving them.

I can see completionist's wanting multiple builds/loadouts in a single playthrough having issue, but other than that, it would hamper their game design if done more generously.

 

[The artful mincer]

I guess you are a little bitch who likes to have things handed to you ... play more.. cry less

Yeah there's nothing more manly and hardcore than spending countless hours getting good at a videogame....

Go Fuck yourself you little prick

 

[The artful mincer]

It's not really that "grindy" unless you want to overpower your character too early on.

There is plenty to be had under normal progression when you reach said locations, and the limited top end (gear maxing) items add a layer of strategy to the game design as well for the player. Especially with multiple approaches to achieving them.

I can see completionist's wanting multiple builds/loadouts in a single playthrough having issue, but other than that, it would hamper their game design if done more generously.

In a balanced game maybe but none of these games are balanced so I say let the player go nuts trying cool new toys.

I've never said a player should have access to everything in a single playthrough but certainly a lot more than currently. I think in about 4 playthroughs the player should have been able to try everything the games has to offer.