I think Vince, to a certain degree, sees an idea work once and then tries to make it work time and time again - but doesn't entirely understand why it worked the first time. Michaels turning on Marty Jannetty worked because at the time you didn't see shit like that happen. Now we see tag team breakup angles happen far too often. Austin/McMahon worked because you never really saw the face of the company fight the boss before. How we have evil authority angles way too often.
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WWE Superstar Roman Reigns Suspended
- Thread starter Sephzilla
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I think Vince, to a certain degree, sees an idea work once and then tries to make it work time and time again - but doesn't entirely understand why it worked the first time. Michaels turning on Marty Jannetty worked because at the time you didn't see shit like that happen. Now we see tag team breakup angles happen far too often. Austin/McMahon worked because you never really saw the face of the company fight the boss before. How we have evil authority angles way too often.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Roman Reigns has got to have the worst "rise to the top" story of any top guy in WWE so far.
A big part of that was anyone but "Bootista"
I was going to say Lex Luger, but I actually think you're right. Crowds just stopped caring about Luger, they didn't boo the fuck out of him like they do with Roman.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Cena started getting booed when they neutered his gimmick.
It was the poop promos that killed him
It was the poop promos that killed him
BFIB
Member
Thuganomics Cena was the best Cena. Crowd was into him, Vince hadn't really realized what he had at that point, but as soon as he did, Cena went above the glass ceiling and never looked back. He also got watered down to the Hustle, Loyalty, Respeck Cena that since then, has more boos than cheers.
Roman's problem isn't his look, or his work ethic. Look at Roman's matches against AJ. AJ carried sure, but Roman looked really good in those matches. Same with Brock, everyone expected Roman to crawl into a corner and cry, but he took that beating that Lesnar gave him.
I feel bad for Roman. Dude has the chops. He isn't going to be the next Rock, Austin, or Cena, because those guys were booked right (Cena, not so much lately). Roman is booked beyond terrible. Plus, expecting Roman to carry a match is never going to happen. Book to the strength, hide the weakness.
Roman's problem isn't his look, or his work ethic. Look at Roman's matches against AJ. AJ carried sure, but Roman looked really good in those matches. Same with Brock, everyone expected Roman to crawl into a corner and cry, but he took that beating that Lesnar gave him.
I feel bad for Roman. Dude has the chops. He isn't going to be the next Rock, Austin, or Cena, because those guys were booked right (Cena, not so much lately). Roman is booked beyond terrible. Plus, expecting Roman to carry a match is never going to happen. Book to the strength, hide the weakness.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I don't think it's started out that way but it's definitely turned into that. It's like Daniel Bryan's YES or Stone Cold's What!? thing. It's been like 20 years and idiots in the crowd still yell "what?", which doesn't bode well for the WWE if they think the boos are going away any time soon.
Erm. Are we thinking of the same thing?
The infamous Rumble where Vince tore both his quads?
Yeah, Roman has all the makings to be a fucking star but he's getting massively hurt by getting the premature mega-push and also by getting handcuffed by WWE's shitty "every face needs to be the same" writing
BFIB
Member
It cracks me up how he is likely going to get his 4th title in a year. And every single time they build it up like its the first time he's won it.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
I mean more in a storyline sense.
Why should I give a fuck about Roman Reigns? Simple question. What has Roman Reigns done of worth besides "this was a really good match"? So?
You listed Luger. Luger had the Lex Express and a foreign heel with a ton of heat that he could use to springboard with a bunch of rah rah Americanism.
Roman gets compared to Goldberg, but Goldberg had the kind of presence that comes once in a generation, and he was groomed with the streak, then the waters were tested with Raven's Flock, then he had the same story with the NWO.
Austin fought against authority, but his rise had just as much to do with everything before he and Mcmahon squared off.
At some point the WWE lost the fucking plot. Nobody has any storyline agency anymore. Everyone has feuded with everybody, everybody has looked equal with everyone else, and everyone gets a million fucking chances.
ElRenoRaven
Member
This can't be quoted enough because it is right on the money. Roman does seem like a decent guy personally just like Cena. But when your booking sucks ass and your promos suck ass then people are going to turn on you.
BFIB
Member
Yep, this right here is on point. Roman is booked like a heel, RR is a prime example. He is taken out, on a stretcher, then held in the back until near the end, only to come out and win it. That's heel booking.
He constantly throws his "best friend" Ambrose into the frey, meanwhile he never turns the favor. WWE realized after the win at WM, to have the commentators play up this "I'm not a good guy, I'm not a bad guy, I am THE guy" because they knew they had nowhere to go with him as far as the crowd reaction is concerned. Dude has zero crowd reaction, which is about the worst you can get.
There is no reason whatsoever for anyone to care about Roman. Honestly, there's no real reason for anyone to care about any of the booking of the current roster, because there's zero identity there.
Enzo shouldn't be a manager. He has the tools to be a ME guy if WWE had him playing a more serious character.
Violence Jack
Member
I agree. His rise through the company as a singles competitor felt really artificial, and it's not like Roman by himself was ever a big draw.
Cena in his thuganomics days used to get mad pops, and they pushed him to the moon. Here's a video from the brand draft where he got drafted to Raw back in 2005. Crowd went nuts.
They have no idea how to get Roman over. There was that very brief period where they had him beat the shit out of HHH last year, and the crowd loved it. It's like they tried to go the Austin route with someone who didn't have Austin's charisma and attitude. He's not good on the mic, he's OK in the ring, and has no personality.
Yep.
Austin's build was two years of him establishing the Stone Cold character before finally winning the title after phenomenal character work and a star making feud with Bret Hart.
The Rock's build was white meat baby face getting booed out of every arena until he turned heel by joining the Nation and then got a chance to establish his character and show off his natural charisma by running down the fans. Once again, it was a slow and natural build.
Cena turned an amusing one off joke during a Halloween themed episode of Smackdown into a character that EVERYBODY (not just women and kids) got behind. He was insanely popular going into his first title win. The people didn't really start to turn on him until after his first title win in that awful Wrestlemania match with JBL. Yet again, it was a slow and natural build.
WWF/E under Vince McMahon has done this shit several times before. It's amazing how badly they missed the mark with Reigns here.
If it turns out to be PED's, I expect the boo's to get even worse. That gives fans a legitimate reason to boo him now. The cheating guy who constantly wins and gets a free push to the top cannot be a babyface.
If he really does come back and wins the belt back, holy fuck. Nuclear heat.
If he really does come back and wins the belt back, holy fuck. Nuclear heat.
Oh man but what a good heel turn that would be...
Wins the belt, beats the shit out of Dean with it, turns to the crowd, smiles and shrugs.
Arrowgigantic
Member
Right here. He was never as much of a presence as Seth and Dean.
They really should've just pulled a New Day and turned Roman completely heel a long time ago. Just send off on the Bautista route and go full douche-bro.
I guarantee that he'd be where they want him to be by now. I realize it's all Vince to a degree, and it's obvious when he calls the shot on something, but it really sticks out when, in an era where they acknowledge 'reality' so readily everywhere else, this Roman situation is the exception where they have hilariously divorced themselves from that reality.
Muting the crowds, talking about certain places being weird for eliciting certain reactions (I know they've done this before, like with Canadian/Smark crowds) and generally just ignoring all the negative reactions from the majority of fans. It made no sense to continue on with him as a face or even in this stupid 'the guy' tweener.
They tried their best to shove this super-push in the audience's face regardless of whether people wanted it or not. And it turned out they didn't.
Luckily for them, Roman made a dumb mistake, and he probably saved them from themselves by giving Ambrose the belt, something he probably should have had all along in the first place.
And people are right that a lot of this is on Roman too. He got comfortable being the hotspot guy on the Shield using like three moves (that kick, spear, superman punch) and never evolved from there. Terrible promo, lazy demeanor, he didn't really do anything to connect with fans like a top face should. Basically, everything you see in Ambrose now! But he had a cool look, I guess? It's the same difference between a Baron Corbin and a Big Cass that you can see now. Both probably Vince projects. One of those guys will be a capable top star because he has 'it' and one will flounder because he doesn't clearly connect.
I guarantee that he'd be where they want him to be by now. I realize it's all Vince to a degree, and it's obvious when he calls the shot on something, but it really sticks out when, in an era where they acknowledge 'reality' so readily everywhere else, this Roman situation is the exception where they have hilariously divorced themselves from that reality.
Muting the crowds, talking about certain places being weird for eliciting certain reactions (I know they've done this before, like with Canadian/Smark crowds) and generally just ignoring all the negative reactions from the majority of fans. It made no sense to continue on with him as a face or even in this stupid 'the guy' tweener.
They tried their best to shove this super-push in the audience's face regardless of whether people wanted it or not. And it turned out they didn't.
Luckily for them, Roman made a dumb mistake, and he probably saved them from themselves by giving Ambrose the belt, something he probably should have had all along in the first place.
And people are right that a lot of this is on Roman too. He got comfortable being the hotspot guy on the Shield using like three moves (that kick, spear, superman punch) and never evolved from there. Terrible promo, lazy demeanor, he didn't really do anything to connect with fans like a top face should. Basically, everything you see in Ambrose now! But he had a cool look, I guess? It's the same difference between a Baron Corbin and a Big Cass that you can see now. Both probably Vince projects. One of those guys will be a capable top star because he has 'it' and one will flounder because he doesn't clearly connect.
I think the most obnoxious thing about the way that they are portraying Roman now is that they're force feeding that annoying Cena PR line of "Whether you like him, or you hate him, he gets a strong reaction!" For me, it is further exasperated by listening to certain wrestling podcasts that label it as a 50/50 reaction from the crowd because they're trying to be nice. Bullshit. either most people hate the guy, or most people are apathetic toward him.
That line actually works for Cena, because when certain fan favorites go against him, it actually feels like a big match. You know Cena can go, and you know that he is the long established top guy, so you want to see your favorite guy get the big win on him, because you know that it means something. This is why it was such a big moment when Lesnar absolutely dominated him. This is why it was such a big deal when Del Rio, Owens, and Bryan all got clean pins on him. This is why it was even a big deal that Styles got the win on him.
If they want to spit that crap for Roman, he has a LONG way to go to really earn it.
That line actually works for Cena, because when certain fan favorites go against him, it actually feels like a big match. You know Cena can go, and you know that he is the long established top guy, so you want to see your favorite guy get the big win on him, because you know that it means something. This is why it was such a big moment when Lesnar absolutely dominated him. This is why it was such a big deal when Del Rio, Owens, and Bryan all got clean pins on him. This is why it was even a big deal that Styles got the win on him.
If they want to spit that crap for Roman, he has a LONG way to go to really earn it.
It's also the way they have the damn heel commentator doing this, nonstop. It comes across as desperate.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
People still believe that the first ending of that Rumble was a shoot, which makes me laugh.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Jimmy Korderas said it was a botch. So did dave lagana and Batista I think. A cena punch made Batista woozy when he was supposed to stay in.
I always thought it was a work because it was handled so well with the refs of each brand holding their guys arm up and all.
Batista said he was pretty worried about how mad Vince was gonna react.
It sure didn't turn out well for Vince!
I think that was just fast thinking on the ref's part. Like when Angle got locked in a shoot kimura by Daniel Puder and the ref quickly counted a pinfall even though there wasn't one, to end it before an injury happened, since you know Angle would rather lose his arm than tap out to Puder.
The Silver
Member
Apathy is 100x worse than boos
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Big Show also claimed the ring exploding on the Lesnar superplex was a shoot until like a year ago.
I call bullshit. Just everything about it and the events surrounding it screams work.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
We wouldn't get an official word on what he was specifically suspended for, right?
funkystudent
Member
Never offically.
But WWE even included his apology tweet in their official announcement post I would not be shocked if it came out soon depending on what it is. Like if it was synthetic weed or something that is against the rules but maybe not major bad PR.
If its Pain killers / Roids? We will never know for sure.
esmith08734
Member
So how do you all think he will be booked upon return? It should coincide with the draft. I really don't think he should wrestle for the title at Battleground, even if he isn't suppose to win.
This is tough. I suspect he will wrestle for the title at SummerSlam because it's a big event and a Shield triple threat is a big match. After that, I suspect that he will lose a few minor feuds (Orton, Corbin, etc) and then position himself back into the title scene maybe a year from now.
There's plenty of people to push: Ambrose, Styles, Rollins, Cena, Wyatt.. I hope WWE doesn't pretend like this never happened.
This is tough. I suspect he will wrestle for the title at SummerSlam because it's a big event and a Shield triple threat is a big match. After that, I suspect that he will lose a few minor feuds (Orton, Corbin, etc) and then position himself back into the title scene maybe a year from now.
There's plenty of people to push: Ambrose, Styles, Rollins, Cena, Wyatt.. I hope WWE doesn't pretend like this never happened.
BFIB
Member
When its a guy Vince is behind, he's willing to look over a lot of things. I don't expect Reigns to be treated any differently once he returns. He's Vince's guy.
As for what needs to be done, you have Cena back, Rollins is back, I would keep Reigns off TV for a while. Give people a break from him being pushed so hard down our throats, and have him return at Survivor Series with a new look (needs to lose the vest, and the music), and have him just be the heel he needs to be. He has the look that Vince wants, just make him that.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
There's no way they're going to have him come off a drug suspension and win the World Heavyweight Title in his first event back.
Empyrean Heaven
Member
It's worse than that, he REFUSED the stretcher, and just went to the back for funsies. It looks absolutely ridiculous.
It would make for an incredible heel turn though.
There is no salvaging Reigns's character now. He HAS to go heel. And he needs to be heel for a long time until the crowd start warming to him, if Vince truly wants him to be their golden child going forward.
Anything else is just madness. Including booking him a a "tweener" (I fucking hate that phrase). Book him as a heel. A badass, asshole heel. He might make them some money then.
Just the worst.
Worst Rumble ever.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I mean, I guess Rey Mysterio was a white-meat babyface who got hit with a drug suspension and came back as a face, but Rey was also a long-term veteran who hadn't been heel at any point in his entire run.
Plus the crowd liked him.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
It was also pretty well known he was busted for using a substance he was allowed to use, but failed to produce a prescription for in order to rehab an injury. He got busted again too, but he was out on a year-long rehab or something the second time I believe.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
He needs to get rid of that stupid body armor to hide his gut
Nerdkiller
Membeur
"AWWW, just look at that crowd in stunned silence over the presence of Roman Reigns, MAGGLE!"
Big match John hasn't aged a day
Rockandrollclown
lookwhatyou'vedone
Roman Reigns is in such a weird place. They clearly want to give him a push like he's the guy, but they also seem to do everything possible to limit his exposure. If he's in a multi man match, he takes a nap. He goes missing from tv for weeks for no reason. Shit, compared to say Kevin Owens, his time on tv is laughable. If you remove all mention of titles/ppv matches, I'd think Owens/Zayn are the most important people on the roster.
Also Cena since he's back gets time.
UberTag
Member
Now imagine if you were subjected to watching him in the main event every week. And he never lost clean for 4 years. And he never improved on promos. And the commentary team did everything in their power to put him over and called you an idiot if you didn't cheer for him. And when you didn't cheer for him it didn't matter because the guys in the back muted your reaction.
And then imagine that you paid a lot of money for tickets to an event and you were blessed with a match that Roman slept through while anyone you cared about swapped wins back and forth in perpetuity because nothing else outside of the main event mattered. Would you be appreciative of Roman Reigns... or would you feel disdain towards the product and express said disdain via boos and/or tuning out completely?
Worked for Edge. Like a lot.
5 minutes in Cinema 4D for a novice graphic designer.
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