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[Nocturnowl]

Here's the problem with Roman...

They don't book him as a bad ass. His role in the Shield was to fuck people up. That's it. And it got him over. So they turn him face and ask him to cut long promos and wrestle matches where heels get heat on him. They did the same thing to Goldberg, never realising THAT'S NOT WHAT PEOPLE WANT.

Now Roman is no Goldberg (that dude had the fucking IT factor from day one, was an athletic monster at Brock levels - I mean dude was doing fucking backflips as a set-up for spears), but if they'd mixed the 'fuck you' attitude of WWF Austin with the intensity of WCW Goldberg they'd have been fine.

It's not even rocket science - Roman as the underdog in any angle is stupid. And despite the jokes, Roman SHOULD be made to look big and strong. He's never been booked like that really, he's always been booked as a goofy Daniel Bryan size wrestler. Which is fucking bizarre - the guy should never be put in a situation where he's talking at a heel casually - he should be cutting short 'I'm going to fuck him up' promos at best. And fighting heels in arena wide brawls that are chaotic as anything.

Or, ya know, ignore all of that and make Ambrose the guy given he actually works as a underdog and a bad ass and people get behind him because, despite his average promos, he seems authentic. Like his entire feud with Lesnar revolved around 'I hate you' as a motivation. Just two guys who wanted to beat the shit out of each other. Is it any surprise that people get more behind Ambrose every time they do a sporadic push for him than they ever did for Reigns?

This post is on point, I tend to forget that I was one of the people who favoured Roman in the shield trio (at least until the end of their run when they went overboard with him) because he was great in his simple role of exploding into the ring and messing up folks.

Heck just take a look at the difference of booking between his Rumbles, the one where Roman broke Kane's single rumble elimination record (booo) had him looking like a powerhouse, the one he won? not so much as they had him have to overcome the odds of the Kane/Show team up with help from the most over man in the business, that being the Rock. And even again this year they had him come close but not before trying to do the Austin 1999 rumble angle again without any of the quality.

there's just no consistency, one month he's weeping it up in the ring because Sheamus swiped his title and looks like a goober, next month he's an angry brawler who got the crowd pops for spearing trips, it's almost like one of these approaches works vastly better than the other.

The great thing about the matches with AJ Styles is they actually booked them in a manner that worked for Roman, he looked powerful busting out the big moves while AJ sold like a million bucks, watching them had hints of what I used to see in the guy but long story short his booking has been pretty horrendous.

 

[HeisenbergLannister]

A billion dollar company created this

I noticed his Tron for the first time on Raw and thought "holy crap it looks generic as fuck", especially for their golden child.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Funny how easily forget that the fans also picked Roman as the breakout star of the Shield, easily. Everyone was on the Roman War Wagon before they split. Can't fault them for that, he looked amazing.

 

[Ithil]

Funny how easily forget that the fans also picked Roman as the breakout star of the Shield, easily. Everyone was on the Roman War Wagon before they split. Can't fault them for that, he looked amazing.

Ambrose was that guy, though. It was Rollins people thought would flounder (in the end he's actually done the best of the three).

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Yeah, I recall Ambrose being the guy people thought would go places, though Roman was looking good too.

That injury massive derailed him.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Roman's biggest problem is he got comfortable being the third man, doing the big spots. He learned, as time has gone on - but they put him in the spotlight way too soon and booked him completely wrong so everything fell apart for him.

 

[Jazzy Network]

I'm pretty sure no one who knew anything about wrestling picked Roman to be the best of the 3.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I'm pretty sure no one who knew anything about wrestling picked Roman to be the best of the 3.

Selective memory loss there. Everyone was going nuts for Roman during these times. I'd love to go dig up posts from before the Shield breakup, but it was clear. Everyone was hot, but Roman was the hottest of them all among wrasslin fans.

 

[hamchan]

Turns out the Shield did a really good job of hiding all of Roman's flaws.

 

[HazySaiyan]

Exactly, the crowd turned on that one as well. He makes reference to Batista in his post - the final two men in 2014 being Roman Reigns and Batista, who wasn't with the company in 2015. Reigns was favoured heavily.

Right but then they said:

fans weren't in a 'anyone but Reigns' mindset the next year. They sure as shit didn't want Rusev to win the Rumble, for example.

The next one being the 2015 Rumble where the fans turned on Roman. I'm not disagreeing that the fans were behind Roman in 2014, I'm disputing the idea that they didn't turn on him in 2015 because they absolutely did .

 

[Cagey]

Roman was liked before internet fans read scoopz in the sheetz that WWE wanted Roman to be world champion. Because WWE loved him, the internet smark had to dislike Roman to maintain identity as smarter than the muscle obsessed dumbdumbs in Stamford who don't appreciate "real" wrestlers.

Just going on today...

Enzo was out two weeks and OT was full of these types complaining about and hating on Big Cass getting shine and preemptively criticizing WWE for splitting up the tag team.

Jason Jordan is getting subjected to this.

Anyone Vince might like, they must hate, because the storyline they're invested in is WWE and Vince and performers he may like are heels, the Fans and Their Guys are faces, and Hunter is their strongest turncoat ally.

Meta-Marks, if you will.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I checked my post history, the only one I liked back then promo wise was ambrose, though I was angry they let brock beat taker and thought reigns should do that the next year since they were pushing him, even though he was green at the time, I expected him to improve.

Only time I really commented on rollins was that early shield six man tag where I was worried he hurt himself since his selling was so good.

So my memory isn't betraying me at least.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I checked my post history, the only one I liked back then promo wise was ambrose, though I was angry they let brock beat taker and thought reigns should do that since they were pushing him, even though he was green at the time, I expected him to improve.

Only time I really commented on rollins was that early shield six man tag where I was worried he hurt himself since his selling was so good.

So my memory isn't betraying me at least.

Sure, and everyone is an individual - but in general, Reigns was absolutely the breakout star before they broke up. The fans LOVED him.

 

[UberTag]

Selective memory loss there. Everyone was going nuts for Roman during these times. I'd love to go dig up posts from before the Shield breakup, but it was clear. Everyone was hot, but Roman was the hottest of them all among wrasslin fans.

Here's one of my posts from before the Shield breakup...

Just call him Dwayne. That's what I do.
Dwayne who's back to promote movies until he goes back to making movies in 2 months so Cena can be champ for a year and a half.
(Or they give the belt to Brock, Trips, Taker or some other part-timer.)

The only non-part timers I can see even tasting the belt again any time soon are Punk and Miz. That's it. Until Reigns gets his Batista push. Then, maybe him.

And another...

It happened again.

CM Punk's quest to be WWE Champion storyline became about HHH and Kevin Nash. Daniel Bryan's quest to be WWE champion storyline is now about HHH and Big Show. All that's missing is Big Show texting himself.

When Dean Ambrose has his quest to be WWE Champion storyline, will it become about HHH and Roman Reigns?

Of course, I wasn't on Roman's cock so much as I was making cynical proclamations of where WWE's booking was heading.

 

[hamchan]

Who doesn't love Shield Roman though? Dude was badass and awesome in that team.

 

[BigDug13]

Roman was liked before internet fans read scoopz in the sheetz that WWE wanted Roman to be world champion. Because WWE loved him, the internet smark had to dislike Roman to maintain identity as smarter than the muscle obsessed dumbdumbs in Stamford who don't appreciate "real" wrestlers.

Just going on today...

Enzo was out two weeks and OT was full of these types complaining about and hating on Big Cass getting shine and preemptively criticizing WWE for splitting up the tag team.

Jason Jordan is getting subjected to this.

Anyone Vince might like, they must hate, because the storyline they're invested in is WWE and Vince and performers he may like are heels, the Fans and Their Guys are faces, and Hunter is their strongest turncoat ally.

Meta-Marks, if you will.

When you watch someone on a job who is CLEARLY inferior at that job compared to others around him, then you watch that shittier worker get promoted over others, it makes you lose respect for that worker. I guess all those boos in every stadium are just internet fans that "read scoopz?" It's not just Internet forums who have turned on Roman.

Shield hid his flaws well.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Who doesn't love Shield Roman though? Dude was badass and awesome in that team.

Shocking how smart booking helps the rasslers.

 

[funkystudent]

People turned on Roman right around the time time he got hurt post shield break up and was out for 4-5 months but they still did those super forced Roman Reigns recovery check in videos every RAW and started painting him as some kind of wrestling jesus as we count down the days for his glorious return.

That really turned people off


Before that he was just the badass shield guy who punches stuff and looks cool

 

[DJKhaled]

Was it weed? Because they skip around with their selective bias for steroids/HGH for however long they have had the policy installed. And who can forget their Orton Rule of removing past strikes after a certain amount of time. It's a joke.

Like the story Scott Steiner said, they asked him to take a test and he said he would as long as Triple H does. They never asked him again.

Dude a five second google would tell you that you don't get suspended for weed.

 

[LiQuid!]

Also every move he does looks like it takes every ounce of strength he has left.

Roman secretly best at selling?

 

[Glorified G]

Roman was liked before internet fans read scoopz in the sheetz that WWE wanted Roman to be world champion. Because WWE loved him, the internet smark had to dislike Roman to maintain identity as smarter than the muscle obsessed dumbdumbs in Stamford who don't appreciate "real" wrestlers.

Just going on today...

Enzo was out two weeks and OT was full of these types complaining about and hating on Big Cass getting shine and preemptively criticizing WWE for splitting up the tag team.

Jason Jordan is getting subjected to this.

Anyone Vince might like, they must hate, because the storyline they're invested in is WWE and Vince and performers he may like are heels, the Fans and Their Guys are faces, and Hunter is their strongest turncoat ally.

Yeah, this is a bunch of nonsense. Forget the "scoopz in the sheetz", where were the internet fans when the WWE flat booked Daniel Bryan to go over HHH in the opening match & in the triple threat in the main event at Wrestlemania to win the title?

Did the snarkiest crowd you could possibly have in wrestling turn on Daniel Bryan at the Raw after WM? What bigger stamp did Vince need to give to a guy with him celebrating with confetti & fireworks to close the biggest show in the year?

Guess what, they didn't. And there were over a million+ more people watching RAW at that time, then they were after this year's Wrestlemania. I guess the "internet fans" are actually using their remotes.

Fact is if you're over the fans don't give a shit what Vince thinks of you. Look at The Rock's recent title run? You think a handsome, borderline A list movie star that was jacked the fucked up didn't make Vince & WWE wet their pants? Did the fans give a shit? No, because he's The Rock & the fans like him & we're perfectly fine with his title reign even if it was clear as day that the smark darling CM Punk was dropping the title to him.

Either you're over with the fans or you're not. Jack Swagger was outpopping Roman during the summer of 2014 (Summerslam to be exact), and that was with Swagger getting 1/10th of the protection Roman was receiving. He doesn't connect to the audience as a babyface on any significant level as a single's performer and the writing was already on the wall. The only time he was was when he was tag teaming with the Shield, and if that was the criteria then Billy Gun should be a 10 time World Champion.

 

[Zabka]

People turned on Roman right around the time time he got hurt post shield break up and was out for 4-5 months but they still did those super forced Roman Reigns recovery check in videos every RAW and started painting him as some kind of wrestling jesus as we count down the days for his glorious return.

That really turned people off


Before that he was just the badass shield guy who punches stuff and looks cool

Yup, I think people are giving Punk way too much credit. I can't remember anyone getting the same treatment following an injury and when he finally returned he delivered a string of just god awful promos. Punk's interview was just confirming what the show already presented.

Winning one of the worst Rumbles ever in an extremely predictable fashion didn't help either.

 

[jmdajr]

Who doesn't love Shield Roman though? Dude was badass and awesome in that team.

It worked perfectly.

Personally I thought Reigns could be Batista level. But Cena? Rock? Never.

 

[Cagey]

Yeah, this is a bunch of nonsense. Forget the "scoopz in the sheetz", where were the internet fans when the WWE flat booked Daniel Bryan to go over HHH in the opening match & in the triple threat in the main event at Wrestlemania to win the title?

Did the snarkiest crowd you could possibly have in wrestling turn on Daniel Bryan at the Raw after WM? What bigger stamp did Vince need to give to a guy with him celebrating with confetti & fireworks to close the biggest show in the year?

Guess what, they didn't. And there were over a million+ more people watching RAW at that time, then they were after this year's Wrestlemania. I guess the "internet fans" are actually using their remotes.

Fact is if you're over the fans don't give a shit what Vince thinks of you. Look at The Rock's recent title run? You think a handsome, borderline A list movie star that was jacked the fucked up didn't make Vince & WWE wet their pants? Dis the fans give a shit? No, because he's The Rock & the fans like him & we're perfectly fine with his title reign even if it was clear as day that the smark darling CM Punk was dropping the title to him.

Either you're over with the fans or you're not. Jack Swagger was outpopping Roman during the summer of 2014 (Summerslam to be exact), and that was with Swagger getting 1/10th of the protection Roman was receiving. He doesn't connect to the audience as a babyface on any significant level as a single's performer and the writing was already on the wall. The only time he was was when he was tag teaming with the Shield, and if that was the criteria then Billy Gun should be a 10 time World Champion.

You don't understand. I'll explain. Daniel Bryan was the ultimate payoff for the meta-story. In the meta-story, Daniel Bryan beating Evolution at WM30 to win the belt means he conquered the big bad heel: he, with their backing, forced WWE to crown him champion. The heel wasn't Orton or Batista or HHH. The heel was WWE. They had what they believed was a real world moment of triumph over an evil oppressive wrestling authority, not merely the on-screen villains. Comical, right?

Why would they suddenly boo? For them, Bryan was a non-Vince guy who forced his way in, even though he was clearly christened by Vince as you correctly note. Cognitive dissonance is strong. Bryan as champion means he has corporate blessing so the fans, unsatisfied with the story ending, turn to wondering when they'll strip him of the belt. When he has to fight Kane in his first title defense, they all bitched he was being buried by having to defend against Kane. When he was a broken man and WWE refused to let him wrestle, they all bitched WWE and Vince got what they wanted: the Bryan nuisance gone to push their guys (Cena, Roman.)

The heel is still WWE for these fans. It's terrible.

 

[Sephzilla]

People turned on Roman right around the time time he got hurt post shield break up and was out for 4-5 months but they still did those super forced Roman Reigns recovery check in videos every RAW and started painting him as some kind of wrestling jesus as we count down the days for his glorious return.

That really turned people off


Before that he was just the badass shield guy who punches stuff and looks cool

Pretty much this. Shield Roman was fucking awesome because collectively all three of them masked each other's faults perfectly, which allowed Roman to be an amazing hot tag and spot guy. Plus his spear was 100x better when he was in The Shield

The constant injury check ins, the bad promos, singles wrestling exposing his problems, and basically getting a Cena-tier push really turned crowds against him. It also didn't help that his big push also happened around the time Daniel Bryan was returning and trying to reclaim the championship he never lost (and there was a decent contingent of people who thought Bryan vs Lesnar at WM31 was a huge money underdog match). And then they started sprinkling in a little bit of revisionist history with Roman, like saying Rollins stole the belt from Roman at WrestleMania because Roman was about to win. Even though in reality Lesnar dominated that match and Roman wasn't really about to win. Crowds turning on Roman is 100% on Vince because Vince was completely disregarding what fans were actually wanting at the time in order to push his pet project.

 

[Foggy]

The heel is still WWE for these fans. It's terrible.

Only in wrestling. They're the height of absurdity.

Then again, I don't know how so many of these fans haven't had a suffocating existential crisis after the first time they engaged in a dueling chant against children in the audience.

 

[Sephzilla]

The heel is still WWE for these fans. It's terrible.

It's not like WWE doesn't paint themselves as the heel a fucking ton though. They've never escaped the "corporate person is a villain" trope from the 90s.

 

[KingBroly]

Only in wrestling. They're the height of absurdity.

Then again, I don't know how so many of these fans haven't had a suffocating existential crisis after the first time they engaged in a dueling chant against children in the audience.

Wwe made themselves the heels with the authority and such.

 

[Cagey]

It's not like WWE doesn't paint themselves as the heel a fucking ton though. They've never escaped the "corporate person is a villain" trope from the 90s.

That's a good point, and it does nicely illustrate that we're all mark ass marks of differing types: if WWE heavily using corporate authority villains in storylines has helped warp people's views of WWE as a real life all-powerful villain keeping their heroes down, well, it's still real to those fans then, damnit.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

The blueprint for how to develop Roman was right there in front of them the whole time: Shawn and Diesel. When the Shield broke up Roman should have been Seth's "bodyguard" while he feuded with Dean, and slowly they start planting the seeds of Seth treating him like shit, yelling at him, slapping him around, teasing a turn, so when he finally does it the fans might actually like it. There was no real build up for Roman. The WWE tried to skip steps 2-9 with him and go straight to 10 and I don't think there's any going back.

 

[Glorified G]

You don't understand. I'll explain. Daniel Bryan was the ultimate payoff for the meta-story. In the meta-story, Daniel Bryan beating Evolution at WM30 to win the belt means he conquered the big bad heel: he, with their backing, forced WWE to crown him champion. The heel wasn't Orton or Batista or HHH. The heel was WWE. They had what they believed was a real world moment of triumph over an evil oppressive wrestling authority, not merely the on-screen villains. Comical, right?

Why would they suddenly boo? For them, Bryan was a non-Vince guy who forced his way in, even though he was clearly christened by Vince as you correctly note. Cognitive dissonance is strong. Bryan as champion means he has corporate blessing so the fans, unsatisfied with the story ending, turn to wondering when they'll strip him of the belt. When he has to fight Kane in his first title defense, they all bitched he was being buried by having to defend against Kane. When he was a broken man and WWE refused to let him wrestle, they all bitched WWE and Vince got what they wanted: the Bryan nuisance gone to push their guys (Cena, Roman.)

The heel is still WWE for these fans. It's terrible.

Again, what bigger stamp did Vince need to give to a guy with him celebrating with confetti & fireworks to close the biggest show in the year with his main title? All of this should have went away as soon as that moment happened. He was officially the WWE's choice at that point but it didn't happen. All this WWE as heel is hilarious. Bryan was over, period. Fans wanted Bryan pushed because he was over. Whatever Vince wanted was irrelevant, the fans wanted their guy because they liked him.

You can go into some more weird pseudo psychoanalysis on the audience and why they responded to Jack Swagger more favorably than Roman Reigns in mid 2014 despite Swagger having much less protection. Or you can come to terms that despite Roman being the most protected full time guy on the roster in the last 2 years beside Cena, he's not connecting as a babyface because the fans are just not into him.

 

[Manbig]

The supposed "IWC" saw the Reigns mega-push coming from day one thanks to the rumors at the time talking about the WWE wanting him to be the next Cena. Despite that, as many here have already said, his role in the Shield hid his weaknesses very well, so a lot of fans were willing to possibly live with it.

At least until that Reigns vs Wyatt match that happened on RAW during the insanely hot Shield vs Wyatt Family feud. Man... that was a real stinker that really put a heavy spotlight on Roman's weaknesses. I'd like to think that's when the "smark" fans started to really turn on him.

The blueprint for how to develop Roman was right there in front of them the whole time: Shawn and Diesel. When the Shield broke up Roman should have been Seth's "bodyguard" while he feuded with Dean, and slowly they start planting the seeds of Seth treating him like shit, yelling at him, slapping him around, teasing a turn, so when he finally does it the fans might actually like it. There was no real build up for Roman. The WWE tried to skip steps 2-9 with him and go straight to 10 and I don't think there's any going back.

I agree. Hell, this is pretty much EXACTLY what they did with Batista too, and it worked out great for him, much to my personal dismay.

 

[Sephzilla]

That's a good point, and it does nicely illustrate that we're all mark ass marks of differing types: if WWE heavily using corporate authority villains in storylines has helped warp people's views of WWE as a real life all-powerful villain keeping their heroes down, well, it's still real to those fans then, damnit.

I'll thrown in an additional point - the epicenter for all of WWE's kayfabe evil authority shit was a moment where WWE did some real life evil authority shit by screwing over Bret Hart. And these days WWE likes to remind everyone of that moment because of it's importance to the Monday Night Wars. WWE actively conditions its fans to hate the company.

 

[Rockandrollclown]

The blueprint for how to develop Roman was right there in front of them the whole time: Shawn and Diesel. When the Shield broke up Roman should have been Seth's "bodyguard" while he feuded with Dean, and slowly they start planting the seeds of Seth treating him like shit, yelling at him, slapping him around, teasing a turn, so when he finally does it the fans might actually like it. There was no real build up for Roman. The WWE tried to skip steps 2-9 with him and go straight to 10 and I don't think there's any going back.

Always been my problem with Roman. His push was never organic. We were just expected to love him on day one and be patient while he learned to be better. There's nothing wrong with that, but a guy who is learning the ropes should not be at the top spot. Reigns is just now getting to the point where I feel like he can talk on the mic and put on a good match. Too late though, damage has been done.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I'll thrown in an additional point - the epicenter for all of WWE's kayfabe evil authority shit was a moment where WWE did some real life evil authority shit by screwing over Bret Hart. And these days WWE likes to remind everyone of that moment because of it's importance to the Monday Night Wars. WWE actively conditions its fans to hate the company.

but Montreal was a work

Face it, New Kayfabe is working.

 

[spindashing]

Plus his spear was 100x better when he was in The Shield

Knock Roman for his mic work and character for sure, but the one thing he is definitely good at is his spear and it's still pretty beast looking.

 

[Ithil]

Roman was liked before internet fans read scoopz in the sheetz that WWE wanted Roman to be world champion. Because WWE loved him, the internet smark had to dislike Roman to maintain identity as smarter than the muscle obsessed dumbdumbs in Stamford who don't appreciate "real" wrestlers.

Just going on today...

Enzo was out two weeks and OT was full of these types complaining about and hating on Big Cass getting shine and preemptively criticizing WWE for splitting up the tag team.

Jason Jordan is getting subjected to this.

Anyone Vince might like, they must hate, because the storyline they're invested in is WWE and Vince and performers he may like are heels, the Fans and Their Guys are faces, and Hunter is their strongest turncoat ally.

Meta-Marks, if you will.

No one is hating Jason Jordan.

You need to just get over the fact that some people don't like your favourite. Enough of the lame meta-excuses.

 

[charsace]

Roman was liked before internet fans read scoopz in the sheetz that WWE wanted Roman to be world champion. Because WWE loved him, the internet smark had to dislike Roman to maintain identity as smarter than the muscle obsessed dumbdumbs in Stamford who don't appreciate "real" wrestlers.

Just going on today...

Enzo was out two weeks and OT was full of these types complaining about and hating on Big Cass getting shine and preemptively criticizing WWE for splitting up the tag team.

Jason Jordan is getting subjected to this.

Anyone Vince might like, they must hate, because the storyline they're invested in is WWE and Vince and performers he may like are heels, the Fans and Their Guys are faces, and Hunter is their strongest turncoat ally.

Meta-Marks, if you will.

I knew Roman was the guy they would push. He was the hot tag guy who was always protected in matches while the other 2 took the beatings and ate the pins.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Also the biggest things that hurt roman were that godawful big shoe feud after he came back that just went on and on and on highlighting all his flaws and making damn sure he was the least over he'd ever been when it came time for the roman rumble - which had one of the most godawful finishes ever with shoe and kane tossing people over.

Putting a guy who had lost all momentum and was saying suffering succotash into a rumble and having him win it in the most insulting (to the fans) way possible was what really did the damage

 

[Sephzilla]

Roman was liked before internet fans read scoopz in the sheetz that WWE wanted Roman to be world champion. Because WWE loved him, the internet smark had to dislike Roman to maintain identity as smarter than the muscle obsessed dumbdumbs in Stamford who don't appreciate "real" wrestlers.

Just going on today...

Enzo was out two weeks and OT was full of these types complaining about and hating on Big Cass getting shine and preemptively criticizing WWE for splitting up the tag team.

Jason Jordan is getting subjected to this.

Anyone Vince might like, they must hate, because the storyline they're invested in is WWE and Vince and performers he may like are heels, the Fans and Their Guys are faces, and Hunter is their strongest turncoat ally.

Meta-Marks, if you will.

I think you're getting worked.

A lot of the Big Cass stuff was tongue-in-cheek kind of stuff and most people I think were generally surprised (in a good way) that he held his own without Enzo. Jason Jordon does look like a pretty prototypical "Vince guy", but nobody is hating on him because he's actually fun, is a good wrestler, and has a lot of natural charisma.

Also the biggest things that hurt roman were that godawful big shoe feud after he came back that just went on and on and on highlighting all his flaws and making damn sure he was the least over he'd ever been when it came time for the roman rumble - which had one of the most godawful finishes ever with shoe and kane tossing people over.

Putting a guy who had lost all momentum and was saying suffering succotash into a rumble and having him win it in the most insulting (to the fans) way possible was what really did the damage

Was that the feud that ending in the last man standing match where Roman took fucking ridiculous levels of damage and still beat 10 counts? At one point he took a chokeslam from inside the ring, over the ropes, outside through two fucking tables, and still beat the 10 count. Even Cena tends to not get that fucking ridiculous.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I hate Jason Jordan

 

[UberTag]

I think you're getting worked.

A lot of the Big Cass stuff was tongue-in-cheek kind of stuff and most people I think were generally surprised (in a good way) that he held his own without Enzo. Jason Jordon does look like a pretty prototypical "Vince guy", but nobody is hating on him because he's actually fun, is a good wrestler, and has a lot of natural charisma.

Cass is already ahead of Roman in the promo department and he's barely 3 months into his main roster run. Dude actually knows how to engage the audience.

There's very little anxiety with Cass.

If there's any smart fan apathy to be found, it's the fear that Enzo will be cast aside like chopped liver because A) Vince doesn't believe in managers, B) Vince can't help but spout insults about how insufferable and annoying Enzo is for JBL to parrot whenever he's on-screen and C) Enzo has astounding promo ability that deserves to be given a showcase after the inevitable split from Cass happens (this is more preemptive fear than anything).

Jordan seems to be universally revered right now outside of his lack of experience.

I hate Jason Jordan

Well, except for this guy.

 

[Sephzilla]

Cass is already ahead of Roman in the promo department and he's barely 3 months into his main roster run. Dude actually knows how to engage the audience.

There's very little anxiety with Cass.

If there's any smart fan apathy to be found, it's the fear that Enzo will be cast aside like chopped liver because A) Vince doesn't believe in managers, B) Vince can't help but spout insults about how insufferable and annoying Enzo is for JBL to parrot whenever he's on-screen and C) Enzo has astounding promo ability that deserves to be given a showcase after the inevitable split from Cass happens (this is more preemptive fear than anything).

Yeah, any actual apathy with the Cass stuff is more the fear of Enzo being pushed aside.

 

[HeisenbergLannister]

Hilarious seeing people still doing the "people are only booing Roman to 'fit in' and because they think it makes them look 'smart'".

I think a huge majority believe Roman can be a big star eventually, but Vince was so desperate for his Cena replacement that he immediately skipped any slow build and has basically led Roman around with a huge "CHEER HIM GODDAMMIT!" sign over his head.

Although I wonder now if they've tried to fight and ignore the boos for so long, if they've completely poisoned any hope of Roman ever being their top face. I know crying for a heel turn is jaded by this point, but his "sit down, drink your beer and shut up" line from Raw shows he can be a heel, and stuff like that would eventually warm him to the fans booing him.

 

[Forkball]

I think Reigns has a lot of good characteristics, and was booked well at times, but they really dropped the ball with him. I don't necessarily agree with the people saying he should go heel, but I do think there was a time where that could have worked, and then you could easily turn him back to face where he would have his Cena 2.0 run. I mean he was cursed when he won the Rumble after a single PPV singles victory. People caught on quick and never let go. Hopefully when he comes back he can reinvent his character.

 

[XenoRaven]

The way I remember the Shield is that Dean was the leader because he was the best on the mic, Rollins gave you the flippy spots, and Roman was the enforcer.

Then at some point, instead of making all three guys look equally good, they started doing tag matches where Ambrose and Rollins would get their ass kicked the entire match, until they could hot tag Reigns who would run through his like three or four spots. Saying "the fans chose Roman" was a self-fulfilling prophecy. They booked him as the only guy who could get anything done. That's when I checked out on him. Instead of letting him develop naturally, you could see the forced push coming 1,000 miles away.

 

[jmdajr]

I would say Cena's rise started organically, then he was forced, and then he had to earn that faith back.

Luckily he wants to be more remembered as BretHrat/Shawn Michael in the ring and not a Hulk Hogan.

 

[Sephzilla]

Cena's rise was fairly organic. His original Prototype-esque debut fizzled out but the Halloween Vanilla Ice segment got him pretty over with fans, which led to Thugonomics Cena. By the time crowds started becoming mixed towards Cena he was already in the main event picture. Go back and watch his WM20 match against Big Show for the US Title. It's legit surprising to hear "LETS GO CENA" chants with no "CENA SUCKS" backing it up.

 

[Oersted]

Yeah, any actual apathy with the Cass stuff is more the fear of Enzo being pushed aside.

If there is one thing I can't really understand is the urge to break people up. Wyatts, Shield, New Day, Lesnar/Heyman... teams work well.

Rocks most successful Hollywood franchise is a ensemble movie.

 

[jmdajr]

Cena's rise was fairly organic. His original Prototype-esque debut fizzled out but the Halloween Vanilla Ice segment got him pretty over with fans, which led to Thugonomics Cena. By the time crowds started becoming mixed towards Cena he was already in the main event picture. Go back and watch his WM20 match against Big Show for the US Title. It's legit surprising to hear "LETS GO CENA" chants with no "CENA SUCKS" backing it up.

He was also white hot at the Rumble where he and Batista were the last two.