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[kikonawa]

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/64507 has posted first impressions on the final Xbox 360 hardware which was (is?) being shown in London. It is in German so I'll pick out a few interesting points to translate.

They were shown a non-final version of Kameo from Rare and the combination with Windows XP Media Center Edition + iPod + PSP. A lot of detail-improvements compared to Xbox, but a lot of useful ports and options were left out as not to make Windows MCE obsolete.

- No digital interfaces to displays / TVs. No MPEG-4, VC-1 or H.264, only MPEG-1 and 2, but some may be added in a firmware upgrade (either online or via new games - users don't get a choice). This will also be used to fix security holes.

- Only via streaming from MCE can WMV-HD be played, but only non-DRM'd ones. DRM'd content will only be streamed in single definition (480p?). Computer with Windows XP can only stream music or photos.

- 2 front USB-ports, 1 in the back for MP3-player, PSP, USB memory sticks, digital camera, or external HDDs with music (MP3, WAV, WMA) and photos. Can be combined (e.g. slideshow from camera + music from MP3-player). Music can be played in games, but NO DATA can be copied onto the internal hard-disk. No movie-playback from external storage.

- Cooling via 3 fans (to the back of the case). RPM is dependant on CPU usage / temperature in the case. When playing DVDs, the fans spin slowly, in games faster. First impression is that the 360 is quieter than the Xbox, but even when idle it is louder than 1 sone and thus noticeable in quiet surroundings.

- Presentation was with the native resolution of the console, 1280x720, higher resolutions will simply be upscaled. The following resolutions can be set in the dashboard: 640x480, 848x480, 1024x768, 120x720, 1280x768, 1360x768. No 1920x1080 (1080i).

- Graphics:: Only seen Kameo. No anti-aliasing (this decision is left to developers if they rather want other effects (DoF / motion blur / etc.) than AA). For HDR, games can use up to 64bit color depth (FP16?). No 128bit support (too much bandwidth). Game looks good with graphics to be expected next year in the PC space. People were impressed but nobody's jaw had to be picked up from the floor.

- Controller, very similar to S-Controller. Wireless version (rechargeable battery included (this is different from what I've heard)) should be good for 30h, can continue playing while charging. Controller as well as remote (included in 400 Euro version) can tun the console on or off.

- The HDD can be used to save games (same as memory card). Games can use the HDD as cache to shorten loading times. Currently only 20GB version planned which cannot be user-replaced by a larger one.

- Xbox 1 Combatibility: Still no list of games, more popular ones first. Exactly the same look as on Xbox (i.e. no extra AA or similar). Game saves cannot be copied from Xbox to 360.

- Marketplace. Payment in points, can be bought with CC (or prepaid cards). Can buy additional levels, skins, game content, mini games (aka Xbox Arcade), all of which is saved on the HDD.

- Messaging: Own messaging service with text and voice messages. Can use USB keyboard; video messages are only possible with a Gold Xbox Live account; for which Microsoft will offer a USB-camera next year. Gold is also needed for playing online games.
Will keep track of past gaming achievements to make it easier to find friends / same level players.

- Will be here December 2nd. Up to christmas, 20 to 40 games will be published.

- (Their) Conclusions:

Improved upon Xbox, but no "killer features". Users of the Xbox 1 shouldn't throw it away, as there is no guarantee for compatible games and all their save-games would be lost. Home entertainment users can use the console as progressive DVD player, but not for HD or DivX (or need to buy Media Center PC).
The new games have more detailed gfx, but whether that is enough to convince Xbox fans to buy it is questionable. That is dependent on the available games, where fresh ideas are needed. For casual gamers 400 Euro is a lot of money, but the 300 + 35 Euro version is not justifiable for the 65 Euro price difference. This market segment will hardly buy Xbox Arcade games when the same can be head for free on the internet for the PC. Thus it will be difficult for Microsoft to position the Xbox 360 between the PS3 for High-End enthusiasts and the Nintendo Revolution for casual gamers to expand their market share.


thanx for translation: ** [maven] beyond3d member **

 

[Funky Papa]

- Graphics:: Only seen Kameo. No anti-aliasing (this decision is left to developers if they rather want other effects (DoF / motion blur / etc.) than AA).

Do I get this right? Because if it is like it sounds it is bollocks.

 

[kikonawa]

it probably means they can't mix some FX together with AA .. it wouldnt mean free anymore hence bite in the Frames per second

 

[Bebpo]

- Presentation was with the native resolution of the console, 1280x720, higher resolutions will simply be upscaled. The following resolutions can be set in the dashboard: 640x480, 848x480, 1024x768, 120x720, 1280x768, 1360x768. No 1920x1080 (1080i).

So they're basically ignoring the resolution of probably 75% of HDTVs on the market? This also doesn't bode well for the "the x360 will render all games at either 720p or 1080i depending on your tv" comments that were made earlier.

I'm glad my 1080i set takes in 720p signals but I know a large amount of 1080i sets just give a black screen with 720p meaning a ton of people with HDTVs won't be able to play any X360 games at higher than 480p unless the specific game allows output to 1080i in the game options.

HD generation indeed...

 

[Morbo]

- Presentation was with the native resolution of the console, 1280x720, higher resolutions will simply be upscaled. The following resolutions can be set in the dashboard: 640x480, 848x480, 1024x768, 120x720, 1280x768, 1360x768. No 1920x1080 (1080i).

120x720?

 

[hadareud]

So they're basically ignoring the resolution of probably 75% of HDTVs on the market? This also doesn't bode well for the "the x360 will render all games at either 720p or 1080i depending on your tv" comments that were made earlier.

I'm glad my 1080i set takes in 720p signals but I know a large amount of 1080i sets just give a black screen with 720p meaning a ton of people with HDTVs won't be able to play any X360 games at higher than 480p unless the specific game allows output to 1080i in the game options.

HD generation indeed...

having read the original article the author said "he couldn't see 1080 to be available". It seems bollocks to me ...

 

[Funky Papa]

it probably means they can't mix some FX together with AA .. it wouldnt mean free anymore hence bite in the Frames per second

Unless they are using DOF/MB/whatever at insane levels FSAA should be mandatory. Period.

I really, really hope this is a mistake. Not that I care too much, I don't get to see many jaggies on my TV but that wouldn't be right. Just not right.

 

[kikonawa]

thats 1280 x 720

 

[nubbe]

It is good if they can use the extra ram for whatever they think would benefit the game more.
Can they even use it for anything else?

I know AA won't work in some games when Bloom effects and such are on.

 

[Borys]

This is too easy... but I will shut my mouth up

It's all about the games, right?

 

[gofreak]

Do I get this right? Because if it is like it sounds it is bollocks.

There's a pretty interesting discussion on B3D about this:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24123

Some interesting speculation about possibly lower native rendering resolutions in some games to keep everything in eDram and avoid tiling too.

I know AA won't work in some games when Bloom effects and such are on.

HDR is the classic "won't work with AA" effect, but it does with Xenos, so that's not the problem. Tiling is looking more and more like the suspect to me.

 

[GashPrex]

This is too easy... but I will shut my mouth up

It's all about games, right?

yep go look at PGR3, NBA2k6, and GOW to start with

 

[Excelion]

you cant select 1080 when the console is connected to a progressive display.

 

[hadareud]

you cant select 1080 when the console is connected to a progressive display.

There you go, that makes sense.

Thanks.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

you cant select 1080 when the console is connected to a progressive display.

cool

 

[Bebpo]

There you go, that makes sense.

Thanks.

It doesn't make sense if he was saying 1080i wasn't even in the dashboard under video output resolutions. I mean on a current Xbox you can still see 720p in the output options even when connected on a 480i tv.

 

[element]

Graphics:: Only seen Kameo. No anti-aliasing (this decision is left to developers if they rather want other effects (DoF / motion blur / etc.) than AA).

I don't know about this one, because AA is a manditory requirement for all games.

The following resolutions can be set in the dashboard: 640x480, 848x480, 1024x768, 120x720, 1280x768, 1360x768. No 1920x1080 (1080i).

I can set my dash to 1080i

 

[crunker99]

This site is notoriously anti-xbox.. no digital outs is just plain incorrect.. you need the HD AV pack

 

[shpankey]

you cant select 1080 when the console is connected to a progressive display.

what on earth were they watching it on then? why would MSFT display this to them on a non progressive display?

to be honest, reading the whole article, they come off as extremely anti-xbox. it seems his whole article focused almost entirely on negative aspects (many of which are being called into question already). then his little personal opinion at the end painting a bleak picture of it's future is some serious baloney for sure.

i would think a big grain of salt should be taken when reading anything here.

 

[mrklaw]

1369x768 is a nice touch. Hopefully one less scaling to be done. I can see myself now switching between all the options to see which looks 1% better than the others.


movie streaming still sucks, so I guess I'll have to keep the xbox 1. Seems daft to have USB HDD attachment and still not stream movies off it.

 

[hadareud]

I don't know about this one, because AA is a manditory requirement for all games.

cool. I had a strange feeling that a few things of this original article were a bit off

 

[hadareud]

This site is notoriously anti-xbox.. no digital outs is just plain incorrect.. you need the HD AV pack

Yeah, Heise sucks (also, don't mention the war)

 

[Excelion]

It doesn't make sense if he was saying 1080i wasn't even in the dashboard under video output resolutions. I mean on a current Xbox you can still see 720p in the output options even when connected on a 480i tv.

well you're right, Xbox360 wont work with 50% of HDTV, Microsoft is so dumb !

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Any articles like this from reliable sources?

 

[shpankey]

I don't know about this one, because AA is a manditory requirement for all games.

I can set my dash to 1080i

that's what I thought about the AA. thanks for verifying that. i remembered reading that 4x FSAA and 8x AF was mandatory for all games, and that ATI went to some trouble to basically give this to developers for free. so there is no real excuse to not use it anyhow.

 

[Joe]

the entire article is one large glob of mis-information.

 

[bitwise]

Any articles like this from reliable sources?

in a couple days there'll be more than you can shake a stick at.

I saw Heise and I was like "oh."

won't even bother commenting on this (purposely) inaccurate stuff.

 

[gofreak]

I don't know about this one, because AA is a manditory requirement for all games.

This was raised in the B3D thread I linked to earlier, but do you know if devs can deviate from 720p as the minimum?

There are screenshots floating around, for example, from nFactor2's engine that are labelled as direct shots from the machine, but they're at 1024x576, with little aliasing. There are also shots from NBA2K6 at the same resolution, also with little aliasing (and then others at 720p that have more aliasing - which might suggest a scaling up). It seems coincidental that a 32-bit colour and z buffer at this res with 2xAA would just neatly fit into the eDram.

 

[Bebpo]

I can set my dash to 1080i

Cool. Seemed to wierd to be true.

 

[pj]

no digital outs is just plain incorrect.. you need the HD AV pack

?

He said "no digital interfaces to displays," which means he's not talking about audio. The HD av pack is only component or scart (I think that's the name of the european thing), which are both analog.

 

[shpankey]

in a couple days there'll be more than you can shake a stick at.

I saw Heise and I was like "oh."

won't even bother commenting on this (purposely) inaccurate stuff.

probably should just lock the thread then.

no need to spread a bunch of incorrect information around only to have to spend countless posts in the future clearing it all up. this kind of crap tends to spread fast.

 

[thorns]

This market segment will hardly buy Xbox Arcade games when the same can be head for free on the internet for the PC.

this is wrong as well.. demo versions will be free (as they are on the internet).

 

[snatches]

Ok that makes it sound like I cant put external media on the hard drive. Well what about MP3 files? I was hoping to put mp3's on the hard drive for custom playlists in game? So I am going to have to have my ipod wired to play mp3's on the 360??

This better be horseshit.

 

[Doube D]

probably should just lock the thread then.

no need to spread a bunch of incorrect information around only to have to spend countless posts in the future clearing it all up. this kind of crap tends to spread fast.

Lol. so you don't like what your hearing which makes it crap?? LOL. Last I checked they had hands on info, you have nill. They >>>>> you. period

 

[GashPrex]

Lol. so you don't like what your hearing which makes it crap?? LOL. Last I checked they had hands on info, you have nill. They >>>>> you. period

no because it's wrong or did you miss that part?

 

[crunker99]

?

He said "no digital interfaces to displays," which means he's not talking about audio. The HD av pack is only component or scart (I think that's the name of the european thing), which are both analog.

The way I translated it was that they were sayign there is no way to view HD video output on a tv.. which is just wrong..

"does not play commecially available HD videos" or something along those lines.. german nowhere near as good as my french though

 

[hadareud]

Lol. so you don't like what your hearing which makes it crap?? LOL. Last I checked they had hands on info, you have nill. They >>>>> you. period

Have you actually bothered to read the thread before posting? Guess you didn't like what you were reading, so "they" must be correct ...

 

[Teknopathetic]

Holy shit, Doube D, you're dumb.

Read his post again. Then read GashPrex's post. Then read mine.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Lol. so you don't like what your hearing which makes it crap?? LOL. Last I checked they had hands on info, you have nill. They >>>>> you. period

shpankey, as many of us, is as perfectly willing to admit that the 360 could be a big pile of steaming turd as anyone. However, there seem to be some obvious inaccuracies about factual data and some of us would also like to know what we can trust and what we can't. So...not only does this site seem to be pushing an agenda...but it has errors about simple details of hardware.

It does however seem to support your posting, which if recent memory is any guide has about nil value to anyone. Basically 90% of gaf >>> you. That sort of sucks, doesn't it?

 

[Doube D]

Have you actually bothered to read the thread before posting? Guess you didn't like what you were reading, so "they" must be correct ...

Ye I read it. I read how a bunch of people who don't like what they are hearing claim its wrong with zero proof to backup anything they say. Whereas the article in question comes with pictures prooving they had hands on info. Try again.

 

[element]

but do you know if devs can deviate from 720p as the minimum?

AFAIK MS wants some sort of AA even in 720p.

Ok that makes it sound like I cant put external media on the hard drive. Well what about MP3 files?

you can have MP3 files on the HDD. I don't think you can just 'copy' them on there though. I think you have to rip them again. But a way around that is getting Microsoft Media Connect 2.0, and just making your MP3 a share and pointing your Xbox 360 to that share. Then all your music can be streamed, even in-game.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Ye I read it. I read how a bunch of people who don't like what they are hearing claim its wrong with zero proof to backup anything they say. Whereas the article in question comes with pictures prooving they had hands on info. Try again.

...

 

[Doube D]

shpankey, as many of us, is as perfectly willing to admit that the 360 could be a big pile of steaming turd as anyone. However, there seem to be some obvious inaccuracies about factual data and some of us would also like to know what we can trust and what we can't. So...not only does this site seem to be pushing an agenda...but it has errors about simple details of hardware.

It does however seem to support your posting, which if recent memory is any guide has about nil value to anyone. Basically 90% of gaf >>> you. That sort of sucks, doesn't it?

If it means nothing, why spend all the time and energy to reply??? ahh, thought so.

 

[GashPrex]

Ye I read it. I read how a bunch of people who don't like what they are hearing claim its wrong with zero proof to backup anything they say. Whereas the article in question comes with pictures prooving they had hands on info. Try again.

your right, element doesn't have any hands on with it...wait...he works with it all the time

 

[hadareud]

Ye I read it. I read how a bunch of people who don't like what they are hearing claim its wrong with zero proof to backup anything they say. Whereas the article in question comes with pictures prooving they had hands on info. Try again.

I actually believe a developer over some questionable german online magazine. But that's just me I guess ...

 

[pj]

The way I translated it was that they were sayign there is no way to view HD video output on a tv.. which is just wrong..

"does not play commecially available HD videos" or something along those lines.. german nowhere near as good as my french though

.. why not just read the summary in the first post?

"- Only via streaming from MCE can WMV-HD be played, but only non-DRM'd ones. DRM'd content will only be streamed in single definition"

 

[Musashi Wins!]

If it means nothing, why spend all the time and energy to reply??? ahh, thought so.

Are you functionally retarded or are you just another troll who trolls better in another language?

 

[Jeff-DSA]

So they're basically ignoring the resolution of probably 75% of HDTVs on the market? This also doesn't bode well for the "the x360 will render all games at either 720p or 1080i depending on your tv" comments that were made earlier.

I'm glad my 1080i set takes in 720p signals but I know a large amount of 1080i sets just give a black screen with 720p meaning a ton of people with HDTVs won't be able to play any X360 games at higher than 480p unless the specific game allows output to 1080i in the game options.

HD generation indeed...

This better be bull or I'm going to take a dump on my 360 and sell it to EB for credit.


EDIT: It sounds like it's most likely incorrect info...

 

[Joe]

please stop quoting him, hes on my ignore list

 

[Borys]

The whole artice sounds too much up my alley to be true - only negative spin. Guy that wrote that probably doesn't like the XBox 360... reliability -100.