Xbox Series X, BC to bring HDR and 60/120 FPS

darkinstinct said:
Most games for the past decade were actually built for HDR and are converted to standard RGB. All the assets use the full color range, enabling it is pretty simple.
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No doubt, but my point is that I wouldn't expect the hdr to be amazing, obviously some titles will be better than others depending on the source material.
Either way it's something new to screw around with, esp if you have a kickass tv
 
darkinstinct said:
He is wrong. If it was just interpolation it would work with every game, like many TVs do. The fact that it is only for select titles is strong evidence that they are in fact doubling game performance.
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If thats the case, it only works on titles where the frame rate is unlocked or can easily be inlocked.

So logically applies to all platforms for "select software titles".

Lets hope there is allot of select titles or devs chip in with patches.
 
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SoloKingRobert said:
6wZUtoQ.jpg
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I have a feeling that this post won't age well.
 
//DEVIL// said:
i dont understand how they are marketing this thing

You want to do a proper marketing? tell us the fucking price and when can we preorder. with the price, tell us the games coming day 1 and why this system is worth the purchase. not release info about it every 2 or 3 weeks by the time we get to hear something new, we would forget what the old news was.

Do a proper marketing that leaves a mark for people to talk about. not a fucking twitter that has probably 10000 likes and thats it.

no wonder why they fucking up to sony.
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Twitter likes don't count for anything. That one tweet will be shared by thousand of outlets that will reach hundreds of thousands of gamers instantly, which will then lead to reaching millions after a certain amount of time.

That's how sharing news like this works. I don't have Twitter and I'm aware of this news.
 
This always sounds so cool but in the end I never go back to play old games I already played unless it's a PC version. Even then I put all the graphics at max, play 5 mins to see how it looks and then turn it off forever.

I had a X1 and now a one X and I played 0 BC games on them since the start of the generation and I own so many lol.
 
Panajev2001a said:
Correct, but unless the patch every game manually (it would explain why they say some games get the framerate improvement and perhaps also only some games get the auto HDR improvement... the OP title omits that "some" bit), the only way it works is like your HDTV auto HDR post process filter... even with a bit more data than the final frame alone, they can't create shadow detail out of nothing... ML reconstruction? Maybe...
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It's been stated many times how this can be done. The same way as DLSS. AI can do wonders for something like this. It can indeed create shadow detail out of "nothing."

Comparing it to a post process filter is uneducated.
 
Gods&Monsters said:
This always sounds so cool but in the end I never go back to play old games I already played unless it's a PC version. Even then I put all the graphics at max, play 5 mins to see how it looks and then turn it off forever.

I had a X1 and now a one X and I played 0 BC games on them since the start of the generation and I own so many lol.
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Well obviously that's not the case for everyone. I spend a lot of time replaying games I love, and I have a lot of Xbox OG and 360 games on One that I have replayed during the last 3 years.

Knowing that Series X will continue to expand this feature is fantastic.
 
Nikana said:
It's been stated many times how this can be done. The same way as DLSS. AI can do wonders for something like this. It can indeed create shadow detail out of "nothing."

Comparing it to a post process filter is uneducated.
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Not sure why you are being this aggressive and defensive (over what?!?)... and wrong (see the HDTVTest video after), it is not just a post-process filter... which btw was not implying AI/ML like DLSS or not, it was implying operating a full screen pass over the final output with ML or not with data augmented by game engine fed data.

Btw, linked to video (which was just like two posts below the one you replied to) which does bring in some insider knowledge too :).
 
Panajev2001a said:
Not sure why you are being this aggressive and defensive (over what?!?)... and wrong (see the HDTVTest video after), it is not just a post-process filter... which btw was not implying AI/ML like DLSS or not, it was implying operating a full screen pass over the final output with ML or not with data augmented by game engine fed data.

Btw, linked to video (which was just like two posts below the one you replied to) which does bring in some insider knowledge too :).
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Whos being aggressive and defensive?

I was simply replying to your reply. Your post eluded to the technique having to be like a post process filter unless they are manually patched. Which is not factual. Never said anything about the frame rate. Was only talking about HDR.
 
The biggest problem I see with this is that it won't play PS4 games and only will play Xbox games. Aside from that, it really looks great.

If Xbox wants me to buyin next gen, then show me their killer app exclusives for the new hardware. Show me games I can't live without.

MS doesn't have the track record their competitors do with this based on last gen, so talking about BC features we mostly already knew about doesn't move the needle for me.

I'll give MS credit for this, their BC solution at a minimum puts pressure on Sony to deliver something on par, and that's a good thing for all of us.
 
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I hope their Auto HDR is applied to all games since they didn't mention 'some' when talking about it.

Also, I can't wait to see it in action. I also hoped all BC games would get Auto 4K as well.
 
Nikana said:
Whos being aggressive and defensive?

I was simply replying to your reply. Your post eluded to the technique having to be like a post process filter unless they are manually patched. Which is not factual. Never said anything about the frame rate. Was only talking about HDR.
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Never talked about framerate in that post, but it is late and maybe I am missing it. I see you being aggressive for little reason and throwing the big words as uneducated around, you are being defensive at the word post process filter as if it were something nasty.

An ML algorithm running on the final frame is still a post processing filter, just that in this case it is trained on resolving special problems such as doing an educated guess of what the original HDR data should have been if the game had implemented an HDR pipeline... the trick to increase accuracy and avoid extra latency comes from getting fed data from GPU buffers directly that helps to revert the tone mapping process that Mapped the game's internal render output to SDR range.

So, yes this requires no game adaptation, but the training may require further per game work, if only to train the algorithm, or not to improve quality on all games: it would not be the first time that a feature only applies to a smaller selection of games and not all of them anyways.
 
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This is certainly a good reason to invest in their ecosystem.

people who think it's just amazing BC need to consider the bigger picture.

I can feel confident that my purchases today will work on MS consoles going forward, where a PS4 purchase today may not even be playable (forget enhancements) on the PS5.

If you see yourself gaming a decade down the road, who do you think will take better care of your purchases?
 
This is not just for games you've "already played." I'm primarily a PC gamer now and features like this are one of the biggest reasons I switched back when this stuff wasn't so prevalent on consoles.

Here. Let me paint you a picture for those that are having a hard time understanding why this is so cool for lots of people who aren't swimming in cash.

let's set up a 5 year timeline for a random person. I know MANY people like this.

Year 1. Person makes 50k. No outrageous bills. Is able to buy every newly released game that interests him.

Year 2. Person makes 50k. Health issues pop up. Bills increase a bit. Is still able to buy every newly released game that interests him but not as comfortably.

Year 3. Company downsizes, person loses job, has to relocate, now makes 40k. Bills are same but money is tighter. Can't afford nearly as many games. Way less time to play them due to new job. Just buys those that GREATLY interest him.

Year 4. Person makes 40k. Health issues rear head due to new work environment. Car accident. Bills increase quite a lot. Can only afford a game every couple months. Hunts for deals and sales as much as possible.

Year 5. Person makes 40k. Married. Saving for new house and kids. Bills are back to normal. Due to saving, can't afford many games. Services like Gamepass and Humble bundle are a staple now. Discovering all kinds of games he never knew he'd like though.


People like me don't have the money to buy every flipping game as it comes out nor do we have all the time in the world to play them right then. Our budgets and expendable time increase and decrease all the time. So we have to pick and choose. I've personally missed out on a lot of series that interest me. I haven't played MANY of the Final Fantasy games for example, even though I've been interested. And due to gamepass and such I can now try out tons of games that I otherwise wouldn't have known I'd like.

Oh, what's that? X Publisher is having a sale? They are bundling a bunch of games in a series I haven't played before the launch of the newest, shiniest, cool looking one that comes out on next gen consoles in a couple years? Sweet. I can afford that now. I'll get it and add it to my backlog for when I have the time to go through them.

But wait, there's more! When I do have the time, and I've upgraded my console because I now have the funds to do so, I get to play them in better fidelity and with more features than I would have all those years ago if I had gotten and played them right at launch on the console they released on? Freaking amazing. Not so bad that I had to wait all this time now.
 
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Vawn said:
But can it play PS3 discs?
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In a show of solidarity with PS5, Xbox has decided they will also not play PS3 games.
Whitecrow said:
MICROSOFT:
"You dont have seen the power of next gen yet"

ALSO MICROSOFT:
"We are adding more fps/HDR to current gen games"

MEANWHILE SONY:
unreal-5-demo-ps5-930x487.jpg


I mean, you dont wanna start...
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Lmao your comeback is a third party game engine tech demo. Talk about an own-goal
//DEVIL// said:
i dont understand how they are marketing this thing

You want to do a proper marketing? tell us the fucking price and when can we preorder. with the price, tell us the games coming day 1 and why this system is worth the purchase. not release info about it every 2 or 3 weeks by the time we get to hear something new, we would forget what the old news was.

Do a proper marketing that leaves a mark for people to talk about. not a fucking twitter that has probably 10000 likes and thats it.

no wonder why they fucking up to sony.
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Does anyone seriously think consumers are sitting out there defining their purchases on the amount of likes things get on social media? You guys are now obsessed with twitter likes. If you're too impatient to wait for 1st party stuff and pricing to be shown (which, let's not forget, Sony hasn't shown either) that's on you, champ.
spawn said:
Is this what to expect from the "most powerful" console

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Third party? Think before you post, Bruv.

On topic:
The logic from some is so twisted. These free improvements, implemented by a specific dedicated team (so it will have zero impact on 1st party quantity/quality (which, quantity wise you know is coming but conveniently forget when it suits)) that cannot be interpreted as anything other than being consumer friendly are bad somehow? Because...?

Oh wait I forgot, these are all worthless cause all the detractors have played every game prior to now /s

If you don't care, don't comment. Shitting on something cool/free cause your preferred plastic box doesn't do it (or doesn't do it as well) is pathetic AF.
 
Panajev2001a said:
Never talked about framerate in that post, but it is late and maybe I am missing it. I see you being aggressive for little reason and throwing the big words as uneducated around, you are being defensive at the word post process filter as if it were something nasty.

An ML algorithm running on the final frame is still a post processing filter, just that in this case it is trained on resolving special problems such as doing an educated guess of what the original HDR data should have been if the game had implemented an HDR pipeline... the trick to increase accuracy and avoid extra latency comes from getting fed data from GPU buffers directly that helps to revert the tone mapping process that Mapped the game's internal render output to SDR range.

So, yes this requires no game adaptation, but the training may require further per game work, if only to train the algorithm, or not to improve quality on all games: it would not be the first time that a feature only applies to a smaller selection of games and not all of them anyways.
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I don't see how saying uneducated is aggressive. Would you rather say idiot, dumbass, or troll like the rest of the people here? I meant no harm.

And maybe I missed it but the link you told me to look at said nothing about HDR. Everything I saw read about the HDR implementation is capable of widespread and frame rate is not due to the logic of the game. Meaning that the AI they are using has indeed has probably already been trained.
 
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DrScissorsMD said:
In a show of solidarity with PS5, Xbox has decided they will also not play PS3 games.

Lmao your comeback is a third party game engine tech demo. Talk about an own-goal

Does anyone seriously think consumers are sitting out there defining their purchases on the amount of likes things get on social media? You guys are now obsessed with twitter likes. If you're too impatient to wait for 1st party stuff and pricing to be shown (which, let's not forget, Sony hasn't shown either) that's on you, champ.

Third party? Think before you post, Bruv.

On topic:
The logic from some is so twisted. These free improvements, implemented by a specific dedicated team (so it will have zero impact on 1st party quantity/quality (which, quantity wise you know is coming but conveniently forget when it suits)) that cannot be interpreted as anything other than being consumer friendly are bad somehow? Because...?

Oh wait I forgot, these are all worthless cause all the detractors have played every game prior to now /s

If you don't care, don't comment. Shitting on something cool/free cause your preferred plastic box doesn't do it (or doesn't do it as well) is pathetic AF.
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There is so much win in this post. I love all of your responses to these obvious console-warring hot takes, but I especially love the first one. I'm still laughing it's so good.
 
They will give more fps to old games? Ohh wow thats something new or maybe it called PC. Dont care for fps as it does not change game in any way, shit will be shit on 4k 120fps. But it looks like for someone fps makes game good.
 
DrScissorsMD said:
In a show of solidarity with PS5, Xbox has decided they will also not play PS3 games.

Lmao your comeback is a third party game engine tech demo. Talk about an own-goal
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So much asking for understanding the point, I guess.

But will maki it in two sentences so every brain can understand:

MS: full of pr marketing, clear lack of focus, but they gotta say whatever they can so the can keep with the marketing momentum

Sony: straight to what it matters, waiting to drop the bomb at the right time. Not much afraid of MS, since MS have been talking >>>>>>> doing since forever.

Better now?
 
Nikana said:
I don't see how saying uneducated is aggressive. Would you rather say idiot, dumbass, or troll like the rest of the people here? I meant no harm.

And maybe I missed it but the link you told me to look at said nothing about HDR. Everything I saw read about the HDR implementation is capable of widespread and frame rate is not due to the logic of the game. Meaning that the AI they are using has indeed has probably already been trained.
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I meant to refer to the post I made, not sure if you may have seen someone else's too, right after the original one you quoted:
Panajev2001a said:
Interesting, so it is machine learning based on the final image output image + the game's internal data extracting extra data to allow the inverse tone mapper AI:


So, it should be quite a bit better than what the TV does with its automatic filter, but not as well as a game designed for HDR. Still, it depends how many games they used to train it so it could be better over time as they update the software if they do update it (which I hope they do).
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The topic of the video is 100% how HDR was achieved in BC titles thanks to ML.

www.neogaf.com

Xbox Series X, BC to bring HDR and 60/120 FPS

oh yh it will bring new games to life .. for sure. but wait , where will you get those old games from to your new console .... i bet you need to buy them.. buy old game that you could enhance on console. thanks but no thanks. but show us proof of that. show us ... umm forza 4 with HDR and 120...
www.neogaf.com www.neogaf.com
 
kuncol02 said:
Lot's of games have their logic tied with framerate (for example Bloodborne).
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What about frame interpolation? The console calculates and renders the frame between two frames and deliver it with very low input lag so logic doesn't get affected but the players see "60 fps" which, btw, would be not a lie after all
 
Davey said:
What about frame interpolation? The console calculates and renders the frame between two frames and deliver it with very low input lag so logic doesn't get affected but the players see "60 fps" which, btw, would be not a lie after all
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That would be as much 60fps gaming as playing on PS3 connected to 4k TV is 4k gaming.
 
Backwards compatibility to me is either a bunch of games that I have already played, or a bunch of games I couldn't be bothered to play in the first place!

I personally couldn't give a damn and so don't the VAST majority of gamers.

A continuous selection of amazing new titles will be the reason the PS5 will out sell the Xbox thingy (I can't even remember what its called) by a country mile.

When will Xbox learn....
 
Microsoft going all out for BC, when there isn't a dollar to be made for them, and in fact it's costing them, is an excellent pro consumer move.
While i hope it makes Sony up their game on BC, they really dont have the same capability as MS to make it happen.
MS is the biggest software company on the planet, with a capability Sony just can't go near.
What they have done so far is amazing.
Just think about they did with 360 games alone.
Looks like the XSX having ML is already paying dividends.
 
kuncol02 said:
That would be as much 60fps gaming as playing on PS3 connected to 4k TV is 4k gaming.
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But they'd still be selling consoles on the premise of "60 fps BC" which would be enough for many who buy them. In the end whatever help them sell the thing is what counts for them and not what people get
 
BC doesn't only mean "Games I already played" but also "Game I could not play", so for me personally that's the main appeal of next gen since I basically skipped this one
 
Xplainin said:
Microsoft going all out for BC, when there isn't a dollar to be made for them, and in fact it's costing them, is an excellent pro consumer move.
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Not strictly true. If I go and buy Prince of Persia 2008 from the Xbox store to play on an Xbox Series X, Microsoft will get 30% of the price I paid, Ubisoft 70%.
 
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This sound so good I'm actually curious to see if it will be better to play cross-gen titles with native XBX enhancements (most likely better graphics) or BC's additional framerate and HDR lol.
 
Until BC consists of me being able to play 80% of my Japanese library, it's empty promises. None of my STG games for my JP 360 are BC supported. My launch JP 360 is dying.

Until I fucking see support for my CAVE games and other shooting releases, BC is shit. Fuck 120fps or HDR, how about completing the support for the games I own?
 
TBiddy said:
What impresses me most here is the "auto HDR" feature. I'm not sure how well it will work, and I'm not sure if we aren't going to see some examples where it's looking weird, but it's such an impressive feat of engineering none the less. It really shows that there's not a single company out there who excels in software like Microsoft.
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Settle down, lol.
 
Ogbert said:
MS are doing some very cool things. Of note, they are actually undermining a lot of 'remaster' nonsense.

For example, no need to pick up the hypothetical remaster of Witcher 3, if the X is already boosting your current version to 60fps.

It's the benefit of PC ownership being brought to the console market.

Now they just need the games.
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It's rarely 60 fps and also u get lower graphics.
 
I don't do consoles on launch ever, I like to wait until a few revisions and price drops happen first..
I will get X Series on Launch.. the way MS is running things lately especially with game pass just flat out appeals to me.
 
So Baldur's Gate 1&2 Enhanced with HDR also? (And Planescape: Torment/Icewind Dale) as well as Neverwinter Nights. That will be neat. As well as the two Pillars of Eternity games. Lots of possibilities for this.
 
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