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[Prezhulio]

My only complaint is Arthur doesn't admit to being an xbot. At least with Shane bettenhausen getting hired at Sony it was as if a dream was being fulfilled because of his self admitted Sony proclivity. When Arthur eventually joins MS he'll still be acting like he's unbiased.

That said, I've listened to every rebel fm and really like Arthur's enormous amount of work he's put in that

Spoiler

, except for the constant dismissal of mobile games, good or not

. so I do appreciate his presence in the games industry, good thing he has thick skin with all the flak he gets.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Why would they be banned?

Apparently they are too positive about Xbox and Microsoft? I don't know, I haven't followed it enough to know why people hate them, but all I understand is that they may have said some positive things about the new xbox amidst all the always online, no used games rumors, and now after the reveal event, which apparently has Microsoft on even more people's shitlist, they've said something positive again? I don't really know why people hate them, but that's what I gather.

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

On the topic of account lending, I would have assumed there's some sort of terms of use clause preventing that. How many systems can your account (and digital purchases) be on now?

Hasn't it been confirmed that part of the reason for always on Kinect is to sign you into Live? Therefore, the only way a friend could use your account is if you are literally in the same room.

Isn't this thread about used game sales at stores though?

The borrowing/lending thing is another issue. I was referring specifically to used game dealers.

It is, but only because their policies force it to be.

 

[jay]

You should of never started in the first place.

Polygon/Kotaku should be banned from the internet.

No, really, some of the features are good. They interviewed the guy from Technos who made Renegade and Double Dragon.

 

[freddy]

Apparently they are too positive about Xbox and Microsoft? I don't know, I haven't followed it enough to know why people hate them, but all I understand is that they may have said some positive things about the new xbox amidst all the always online, no used games rumors, and now after the reveal event, which apparently has Microsoft on even more people's shitlist, they've said something positive again? I don't really know why people hate them, but that's what I gather.

The bolded is the only thing you said that has any relevance. Why did you say the rest?

 

[MetatronM]

I'm confused here. Wasn't Polygon right? Gamers aren't the ones paying the used game fee. I'm not familiar with all the other stuff people are bringing up, but in this case their reporting was accurate

Gamers are absolutely the ones paying the used game fee. They're just paying it to a retailer first who will then in turn deliver that fee to Microsoft.

Unless, of course, you actually believe that retailers are just going to pay the fee out of pocket out of the goodness of their hearts to make sure you get the best possible value and take a loss on every single used game they sell.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

1

I will not be reading Polygon in the future.

No one should be reading Polygon.

 

[Zeth]

Klepek's post is an editorial, Polygon's is news. People gettin' crazy in here.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

The bolded is the only thing you said that has any relevance. Why did you say the rest?

Because I can? I'm giving my basic understanding of what I see. Now, based on what I've observed and typed out, maybe someone else can fill me in on why they are so hated around here, to the point that people are suggesting having their very mention banned or something to that effect. It's not too difficult. I'd love some links to get a better understanding of it all, but without following it too heavily, it seems they mostly get shit for saying things that can be seen as positive towards Microsoft and the Xbox.

Isn't that the crux of the criticism? Does a lot of their content shift heavily pro Microsoft, to the point that it makes no sense at all? Do they always come to the rescue when there's a negative MS story? Are they known to be unfairly critical of Sony and Nintendo? All I'm trying to do is understand why they are so hated.

No one should be reading Polygon.

Why? I'm not trying to be a dick about it, just curious what is it about them that people hate so much?

 

[AF_Writer]

and i'm paying for the majority of them in some way or another.


THe developers and platform holders want a piece of the used game market. The two choices were to end the used game market or take a piece of it.

Sony will be following up suit in some half assed way too. I bet at first they allow their first party games to be traded in but 3rd parties will want the same set up as xbox one and that is why sony was afraid to say anything at their conference.

I'm sure the developers, publishers and console manufacturers all want a piece of the used game market, as would every other product creator in any industry. Imagine having to pay Ford, Toyota or Dodge a fee for selling your car, or American Eagle or Old Navy for used clothes you don't wear anymore and wish to sell. Would you think this would be a just thing to do?

If Sony's smart, they'll do the complete opposite and stay with the status quo, which will mean they'll sell a significant more systems than Microsoft. There's no way publishers and developers will only opt to create games for the Xbone over the PS4 if it holds the market share. Actually, from a consumer standpoint, this would be ideal because it'd show that gamers won't support anti-consumer DRM.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Does Polygon just have a good Microsoft sources, or are they making up a lot of the stuff they say? I've looked at some of their articles, and they always seem to have articles from "sources within or close to Microsoft." I think I might have read something else earlier in the year that came from them regarding Xbox One launch titles? Was that them also that talked about the realistic racing game, Ryse being the mega launch title and some game with Pixar quality graphics? Was that them?

Is that what it is? Are they not actually in contact with anyone and instead just saying this stuff to make the next Xbox sound better than it really is?

 

[eastmen]

I'm sure the developers, publishers and console manufacturers all want a piece of the used game market, as would every other product creator in any industry. Imagine having to pay Ford, Toyota or Dodge a fee for selling your car, or American Eagle or Old Navy for used clothes you don't wear anymore and wish to sell. Would you think this would be a just thing to do?

If Sony's smart, they'll do the complete opposite and stay with the status quo, which will mean they'll sell a significant more systems than Microsoft. There's no way publishers and developers will only opt to create games for the Xbone over the PS4 if it holds the market share. Actually, from a consumer standpoint, this would be ideal because it'd show that gamers won't support anti-consumer DRM.

Imagine having to take your console in monthly to get disc drives replaced just like a oil change or to get controllers swap out every x amount of games like brakes.

Or imagine instead of going to game stop you go to a sony store for certified pre owned games.

The majority of companies try their best to find a way to profit off the used industry or destroy it .

Look at music . You used to buy used cds but they found a way to kill the majority of that market by using drm on mp3s and streaming music.


Right now neither the xbox or ps4 hold any market share so if a developer wanted drm and sony said no , now would be the time to not support sony because it would stop the market share.


I've been a steam user for almost a decade and I have no problems not being able to sell content I've bought .


There are millions of playstion 3 owners who agree with me on that.

 

[weekend_warrior]

Why? I'm not trying to be a dick about it, just curious what is it about them that people hate so much?

Because they are biased, unreliable, untruthful, and may or may not be taking money from MS under the table.

You need to understand that there is a big problem with the state a games journalism right now. Several incidents, including that Gamespot employee who was fired when he didn't give a game a good enough review, have given a black eye the the entire industry. It's been getting harder to identify what outlets can be trusted and as a result a lot of good journalists are having their reputations smeared.

So when certain outlets are clearly adding to the problem they're quickly blacklisted by the community, GAF goes so far as to ban them to prevent their URLs from showing up on the site. It's not meant to be a witch hunt, but unfortunately it seems to come down to that at times. The amount of backdoor shady deals going down make people hyper-aware of when someone might be on the take, and it's nearly impossible to earn back trust once you've been outed.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Hasn't it been confirmed that part of the reason for always on Kinect is to sign you into Live? Therefore, the only way a friend could use your account is if you are literally in the same room.

Was it? I suppose facial recognition could be used in such a manner.

If so, they really do have a draconian solution to every aspect of this.

 

[weekend_warrior]

Right now neither the xbox or ps4 hold any market share so if a developer wanted drm and sony said no , now would be the time to not support sony because it would stop the market share.

I'm trying to figure out what this is supposed to mean but I can't.

 

[eastmen]

I'm trying to figure out what this is supposed to mean but I can't.

Its very simple.

Market share PS4 =0

Amount of sales lost if they don't publish a game for it = 0



Total number of ps4's sold this year = x . X is less than Y which is the amount of ps3/xbox 360s out there.


If EA or any developer wanted DRM on the Sony console right now would be the best time to bargin for it because they will loose very little money by not supporting the ps4. Mean while the ps4 will have a lot ot loose if it is a big title or muiltiple big titles.


Once again its very simple. Sony doesn't have all the power in the developer releationship. The developers have a lot of power.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Sony doesn't have all the power in the developer releationship. The developers have a lot of power.

Publishers do not hold all the power in a relationship with Sony either. They're symbiotic relationships.

Around 30% of EA's revenues in the last fiscal year were derived from the 360 and about 30% of EA's revenues were derived from the PS3. These two platforms will continue to provide substantial revenue in the coming years.

EA not releasing games on the PS4 would negatively affect Sony.

Sony not granting publishing on the PS3 would similarly cripple EA.

Replace Sony with Microsoft and it's the exact same situation. Publishers will play nice with both.

 

[madmackem]

Its very simple.

Market share PS4 =0

Amount of sales lost if they don't publish a game for it = 0



Total number of ps4's sold this year = x . X is less than Y which is the amount of ps3/xbox 360s out there.


If EA or any developer wanted DRM on the Sony console right now would be the best time to bargin for it because they will loose very little money by not supporting the ps4. Mean while the ps4 will have a lot ot loose if it is a big title or muiltiple big titles.


Once again its very simple. Sony doesn't have all the power in the developer releationship. The developers have a lot of power.

Dont be silly, sony is one of the biggest selling console makers out there, they own japan they own large parts of europe, there isnt a cat in hells chance third parties dont release on that platform xbox isnt strong enough brand outside of the usa to carry the sales they would need. They need to be on a sony platform if they wont to make money its a simple fact.

 

[SirIgbyCeaser]

you know nothing jon snow.

 

[Winterfang]

Publishers do not hold all the power in a relationship with Sony either. They're symbiotic relationships.

Around 30% of EA's revenues in the last fiscal year were derived from the 360 and about 30% of EA's revenues were derived from the PS3. These two platforms will continue to provide substantial revenue in the coming years.

EA not releasing games on the PS4 would negatively affect Sony.

Sony not granting publishing on the PS3 would similarly cripple EA.

Replace Sony with Microsoft and it's the exact same situation. Publishers will play nice with both.

The lack of EA support can kill consoles.

 

[madmackem]

The lack of EA support can kill consoles.

Fifa sells better on sony platforms in europe as a whole, ea likes money they will be on sonys next machine. Hell vita is getting the next fifa and wii u isnt.

 

[eastmen]

Publishers do not hold all the power in a relationship with Sony either. They're symbiotic relationships.

Around 30% of EA's revenues in the last fiscal year were derived from the 360 and about 30% of EA's revenues were derived from the PS3. These two platforms will continue to provide substantial revenue in the coming years.

EA not releasing games on the PS4 would negatively affect Sony.

Sony not granting publishing on the PS3 would similarly cripple EA.

Replace Sony with Microsoft and it's the exact same situation. Publishers will play nice with both.

Current contracts will have to be honored so i'm pretty sure madden for 2013 and most likely 2014 are already set in stone along with battlefield and a few of ea's other big titles .

But in the usa not having madden will do more harm to sony than almost anything else.


At the end of the day sony will allow drm on their system. MS already took the full force of the negative back lash. So now sony will come in and say its up to developers who of course will choose that root and there you go its all over.

 

[shinra-bansho]

The lack of EA support can kill consoles.

The lack of platforms to sell on can kill publishers. Again, these a symbiotic relationships.

EA are currently reliant on both Microsoft and Sony's platforms for sufficient revenue to cover their costs.

The ridiculous notion of EA or any other major publisher falling entirely in line with a single platform holder is wishful thinking. None of the platform holders have that kind of clout these days. They will go where the money is and that's multiplatform.

Current contracts will have to be honored so i'm pretty sure madden for 2013 and most likely 2014 are already set in stone along with battlefield and a few of ea's other big titles .

But in the usa not having madden will do more harm to sony than almost anything else.

At the end of the day sony will allow drm on their system. MS already took the full force of the negative back lash. So now sony will come in and say its up to developers who of course will choose that root and there you go its all over.

No publisher that does a large portion of its sales in Japan (Capcom, Square Enix) is going to try and prevent resale - as it would sign their death warrant in the Japanese market.

I didn't say Sony would disallow DRM. All I said was that your idea that publishers hold all the cards in this game of poker is flawed. Again, the relationships are mutually beneficial.

 

[Replicant]

LOLygon lost their credibility post Sim City debacle.

 

[FINALBOSS]

A fees a fees a fee. Either way, we're paying somehow.

 

[soulassssns]

The bolded is the only thing you said that has any relevance. Why did you say the rest?

It is his opinion! Why does it bother you so much?

 

[Speevy]

They paid me...generously.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

LOLygon lost their credibility post Sim City debacle.

The people that got hired on had me doubting it in the first place. The documentary spectacle just sealed the deal that I'd never willingly go there. Luckily, from the threads that get posted here about their crazy antics, it looks like I made the right choice.

Just a bunch of clowns over there acting like they are something special.

 

[eastmen]

The lack of platforms to sell on can kill publishers. Again, these a symbiotic relationships.

EA are currently reliant on both Microsoft and Sony's platforms for sufficient revenue to cover their costs.

The ridiculous notion of EA or any other major publisher falling entirely in line with a single platform holder is wishful thinking. None of the platform holders have that kind of clout these days. They will go where the money is and that's multiplatform.
No publisher that does a large portion of its sales in Japan (Capcom, Square Enix) is going to try and prevent resale - as it would sign their death warrant in the Japanese market.

I didn't say Sony would disallow DRM. All I said was that your idea that publishers hold all the cards in this game of poker is flawed. Again, the relationships are mutually beneficial.

that wasn't my postion. I only stated one Publisher and one market because of one highly popular game.

The more group together the worse it will be. Imagine if Activistion tells sony hey if we can't put drm on it then no more call of duty while ea is saying the same about madden.

Either one of those titles would seriously cripple a console in its first months but two of them together being exclusive to the other new system would be a quick death.

They wouldn't even have to hold the games themselves hostage. They could simply say no dlc and give al lexclusive dlc to ms.

The more companies hold back games or DLC the harder it will be to sell the ps4 and the larger the xbox install base will be until there is no reason to develop for the ps4.


But it doesn't matter, sony will have drm on their console.

 

[freddy]

It is his opinion! Why does it bother you so much?

Because when people try to dismiss a lot of legitimate complaints about something with juvenile "they just don't like it because they are positive about Microsoft" in a passive aggressive way, it makes me think I'm posting with 5 year olds. Hope that clears things up for you.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

Did Major Nelson honestly think that would clear the air?

 

[graywolf323]

I never started reading Polygon. They're in the same class as Kotaku.

I'm no fan of Kotaku but Polygon is below them

 

[AOC83]

Much like with taxation, the fee will hit both Gamestop AND consumers, even though on paper Gamestop only pays the fee.

Exactly, if Gamestop has to pay a fee your used games will basically become worthless because they will not pay you more than a few bucks at best. It also makes buying used games more expensive.

 

[DocSeuss]

OP, one post is written as journalism, one post is written as bloggery. Polygon's use of dry language without lack of opinion isn't joking or wrong, it's simply reporting. What you seem to desire is editorializing, which is why you prefer GiantBomb.

It'd be like you going "see! This opinion columnist gets it! The Wall Street Journal reporter is totally being paid off!" It's the method that you don't like.

 

[freddy]

OP, one post is written as journalism, one post is written as bloggery. Polygon's use of dry language without lack of opinion isn't joking or wrong, it's simply reporting. What you seem to desire is editorializing, which is why you prefer GiantBomb.

It'd be like you going "see! This opinion columnist gets it! The Wall Street Journal reporter is totally being paid off!" It's the method that you don't like.

So you have all these industry veteran journalists sitting around and dressing up basic PR. They could just hire kids out of school to do this.

 

[enzo_gt]

What is irritating is that Polygon put out that story RIGHT after the used games hooplah started gaining momentum, like suddenly they have a way to downplay the rumours because "sources."

I still sub to Polygon's RSS feed for the general news updates. Don't really care for editorials from any gaming news source, they're all as equally as bad as Kotaku, RPS, Destructoid, PA, etc. I hate them all. Except Kotaku's Fine Art series.

 

[Neuromancer]

So you have all these industry veteran journalists sitting around and dressing up basic PR. They could just hire kids out of school to do this.

Honestly I'd rather have them do that than be snarky just for the sake of being snarky (like Kotaku so often likes to do.)

 

[Shaneus]

You guys shouldn't be so hard on Crescente. This video review of SSBB will change your mind.

Edit: Damnit, beaten.

 

[markot]

Gee, whod of thunk the site that had a video about themselves before they were formed funded by msoft, would be, somewhat, slightly, less then reputable?!

No one bites ze hand that feeds.

 

[Sleeplessnights]

I've been saying this for ages, I'm glad many have finally seen that they're horrible. Admitly I dismissed them as soon as I saw who was on board.

 

[gofreak]

I'm starting to think that Crecente genuinely doesn't know the ins and outs of the system he's reporting on. That if his reporting on this is misleading it may be genuinely unwittingly,

For example he doesn't know what's happening at retail:

And he was unaware, seemingly, of the multiple executive comments after the reveal about the fee payable by a new user in a private transaction:

Coincidentally or otherwise, Microsoft's PR messaging after these interviews has tried to focus attention on the one scenario where the user won't have to pay a fee - resale and trade through retail - but has not addressed the issue of private transactions and the comments Phil Harrison and Matt Booty made.

I get the impression Crecente's sources were focussing on that same line, and have perhaps confused or misled him to think there won't be a fee under any circumstances. But to throw out the blanket 'won't be a fee' without knowing fully how the system will work and without apparent awareness of what MS execs were saying two days ago, seems like very superficial reporting at best.

 

[Bedlam]

As others have pointed out; the "fee" will be there: you'll get significantly less money for your trade-ins because now MS and publishers also want a piece of the pie on top of Gamestop's slice. They're just not calling it a "fee" but it's a price increase.

Also, as far as we know now, only certain retailers cooperating with MS will have the power to deactivate authentifiation codes which is bad enough. Basically they're giving Gamestop the monopoly on the used game market and killing it off for everyone else.

 

[markot]

So you cant even give games to people when you are done with them? Lend? Etc!?

 

[fart town usa]

i don't know why people bother with sites outside of giantbomb.

bombcast and neogaf is all i need.

Spoiler

8-4 & ++Good games too

 

[Shaneus]

As others have pointed out; the "fee" will be there: you'll get significantly less money for your trade-ins because now MS and publishers also want a piece of the pie on top of Gamestop's slice. They're just not calling it a "fee" but it's a price increase.

Also, as far as we know now, only certain retailers cooperating with MS will have the power to deactivate authentifiation codes which is bad enough. Basically they're giving Gamestop the monopoly on the used game market and killing it off for everyone else.

What happens if there's an internet problem at the retailer that's deactivating the game? I hope Gamestop has always-on internet.

So you cant even give games to people when you are done with them? Lend? Etc!?

No. That's exactly why people are getting so shitty about this whole thing. Only way MS could possibly redeem themselves is if they offer a deactivate option on the console it was activated on so you could lend games out. Still requires said internet connection, but at least the disc you bought it on isn't completely fucking worthless.

 

[gofreak]

What happens if there's an internet problem at the retailer that's deactivating the game? I hope Gamestop has always-on internet.

If the system works like MCV reports and there's a special online setup for retailers to use, they'd just presumably take your game and run it through the system whenever their network comes back.

This means that deactivation on your account may not happen immediately - you may have some hours after the trade-in where you can still play the game.

But if the online check on the console is every 24 hours, that'll be the case anyway and MS is willing to tolerate that in general. For example if I trade in a game immediately after an online check, I'll have up to 24 hours where I can still play the game on my system. The next ping, 24 hours later, will deactivate it on my account. So there's an 'up to 24 hours' grace period on playing a game after a trade in anyway... assuming the check is no more frequent than 24 hours.

 

[RobbieH]

Why? I'm not trying to be a dick about it, just curious what is it about them that people hate so much?

Their entire SimCity coverage is the big one. They gave it 9.5, then 8, then 4, then 6.5. Everything Arthur Gies posted about it on Twitter was inflammatory bullshit. There was the Crecente / Walker episode. After that Gies defended Adam Orth, supported the woman who made the claims about Mojang and a bunch of other stuff.

I'm starting to think that Crecente genuinely doesn't know the ins and outs of the system he's reporting on. That if his reporting on this is misleading it may be genuinely unwittingly,

For example he doesn't know what's happening at retail:

And he was unaware, seemingly, of the multiple executive comments after the reveal about the fee payable by a new user in a private transaction:

Coincidentally or otherwise, Microsoft's PR messaging after these interviews has tried to focus attention on the one scenario where the user won't have to pay a fee - resale and trade through retail - but has not addressed the issue of private transactions and the comments Phil Harrison and Matt Booty made.

I get the impression Crecente's sources were focussing on that same line, and have perhaps confused or misled him to think there won't be a fee under any circumstances. But to throw out the blanket 'won't be a fee' without knowing fully how the system will work and without apparent awareness of what MS execs were saying two days ago, seems like very superficial reporting at best.

He really should be aware of what execs were saying considering Polygon have reported on it as much as anyone else. I put this together in an attempt to keep track of all the conflicting reports about used games. One of 3 things has happened:

• Somebody at Microsoft comments on always online and used games. This statement directly contradicts what every other Microsoft employee has said.
• An unnamed Microsoft "source" comments on always online and used games. This statement directly contradicts what every other unnamed Microsoft "source" has said.
• "We're not confirming anything this week. We're only unveiling the console and all policies are still being decided. But to distract you look at the infinite power of the cloud! 40x more powerful!"

Attempting to piece everything together, and assuming anything said so far is true, we'll have a system like so:

• If you have no internet connection at all you won't be able to play anything, full stop.
• When you buy a game, used or otherwise, the system registers the key to your Xbox Live account. It then installs to your hard drive and makes some check every 24 hours. If the check fails for whatever reason...you'll be locked out of that game? Your account? We've gotten nothing on the "or else" part of this.
• To play any game it must be installed on the hard drive of the current machine and you must be logged in on an account to which that game is registered.
• If the disc is already linked to a different profile you'll be prompted to buy it, presumably via the marketplace, at their generous prices.
• You'll be able to trade games at participating retailers only. They'll scan the game and remove it from your Xbox Live account. The price you get will be typically awful.
• The cost to buy used games will be the usual price as decided by the retailer + activation fee.
• You won't be able to trade in at a non-participating retailer. You won't be able to sell games privately.
• You won't be able to trade with your friends. You won't be able to borrow or lend. The only way around this would be to give them your account, but Kinect probably won't allow it unless you're in the room when the account logs in. I can't believe I typed that sentence.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Constantly lying.

The surely Kotaku needs to be banned too?

 

[Ban Puncher]

Tricky Scoops > The entire staff of Polygon put together

 

[gamemadmax]

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