Xbox's handheld 'Pembrooke' has been sidelined (for now), as Microsoft doubles down on Windows 11 PC gaming handheld optimization
GHG
Member
This is actually insane:
On Microsoft's own game. You couldn't make this shit up.
Astray
Member
Lol he and Larry Hryb to a lesser extent have been taking pot shots at Phil ever since they left.
Astray
Member
We need a guy who loves SteamOS the wayThis is actually insane:
On Microsoft's own game. You couldn't make this shit up.
GigaBowser
loves Nintendo.
GigaBowser
Banned
kratos and marster chied raised me buuuuuuuuut i play 95 percents portimble now so i choosed switch 2We need a guy who loves SteamOS the way
ChorizoPicozo
Member
This is why MS is freaking out, and the Xboys are kind of running around like headless chickens.
The native Xbox handheld being "sidelined" kind of feels like all Xbox hardware is being sidelined. Windows is basically an enterprise OS pushing AI, ads, security, telemetry out the wazoo, Isn't the whole point of an Xbox OS to be more like SteamOS; a focused, gaming-first experience?
So now Microsoft is going to waste a whole year trying to "fix" Windows, maybe even trying to release a Linux version (thinking that magically is going to make Windows less shit -when they can't even get the current version right). To me, this is just more evidence that Microsoft doesn't know how to exist in the gaming industry.
awwr999999
Member
Putting an Xbox sticker on every Windows 11 PC right next to the Intel sticker.
The Xbox brand will be diluted by inconsistent gaming experiences across a wide range of devices until MS kills it off down the line and rolls everything back into Windows.
awwr999999
Member
Windows OS will never allow booting directly into games and out of games as a supported feature.
SteamOS not allowing booting into games basically means that Steam and Windows have more or less the same user flow.
Consoles at their best allow games to own the experience by existing outside of an operating system until the user ejects the game.
Sony has this user flow across devices from CD players to BD players and consoles ending at the PS2.
That game-centric approach makes each game its own self-contained universe and makes a game console UX superior to a gaming PC UX.
If Steam's going to be a console it can't keep doing what Windows does.
djjinx2
Member
Fess
Member
I don't think Microsoft has a year to make Windows better…
All that is needed for SteamOS to snowball until it takes over completely is some Steam walls going down.
Currently Steam isn't convenient if you use other store fronts. The perfect user experience kinda fall flat on it's face for anything outside of Steam.
But a big update later it could all be fixed. Could happen in a month. They just need to let you log into multiple store accounts, like Playnite, so you could get access to your complete PC library directly within Steam. And they could allow access to multiple stores through web stores within the UI.
Things would kinda be over for Microsoft.
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RetroGamingUK
Member
This is literally all that "next gen Xbox" will amount to
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
Also,
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
it's worth mentioning that if this does happen, it would be Sony's fault. By creating a weak PS6 Portable, they're giving devs an out to where their games can be conceived and designed around a lowest common denominator that is closer to the Switch 2 compared to what it would be if the PS6 Portable didn't exist.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Yes but MS are leveraging their Windows market to do that, with just only the easiest-to-integrate & minimal surface-level Xbox elements (and branding) to do so.
SIE are leveraging their PlayStation console market instead because unlike Xbox's, PlayStation's is actually still relevant and thriving.
MS's problem now is, even if it did improve performance, it'd likely be behind Steam OS, because it's not like Valve won't continually improve their own performance. And another thing: if these Xbox gaming-centric PC devices are just going to leave it to whatever OEMs want on the hardware & driver front, and have OS-level optimization do the heavy lifting...it's going to fail and run into all the same problems Steam Machines did last decade, if not more.
The truth is you probably cannot have a fully console-like experience on PC while having 100% the same level of openness when it comes to GPU, CPU, and driver support as PC today does, with user-level customization added on top. The more degree of openness you have, the more granularity, but also the more points where stability can break and things can go wrong.
The whole point with these PC devices pushing for a concentrated, console-like experience is that they should be providing just enough amount of predictable modularity to give the illusion of openness and choice, while still being able to keep the range of that choice manageable for reason of vertical-level optimization, stability, and user experience. MS have vertical-level optimization, stability and ease of user experience, but it's with Xbox OS and traditional Xbox consoles. They definitely don't have it on Windows, and Valve are closing the gap on their end to providing a console-like Xbox/PlayStation style PC gaming experience through Steam OS and Steam Deck devices.
Like
Astray
was saying, the emulation approach won't provide a blanket license for a user's Xbox library to carry over, unless MS provide tools to let users transfer their library themselves. Even then, they probably can't be tools that license holders of those game IP could consider as voiding the contracts/license agreements they originally made with the Xbox division to develop those games for Xbox consoles. This is part of the reason I was still leaning on the next Xbox devices running Xbox OS with extended Win32 layers implemented with levels of abstraction, maybe even modifying the Xbox OS kernel in some ways to make it happen. But recent reports suggest they're shifting to a Windows kernel and the Windows OS outright, and I guess simulating Xbox OS and Xbox GUI-level features within that environment.
Why would 3P OEMs test a product if they sense MS themselves have too little confidence in it to test it themselves? Part of the reason Steam Deck is getting more OEM support is because Valve were first up to bat to put out a viable product proving the concept could work. It was their idea, it was their gamble to take, and it paid off.
It's a bad signal to OEMs if Microsoft, who are just coming off a failure of a traditional console hardware generation, try putting out new gaming devices but want OEMs to take the upfront hit first. OEMs could also feel such a move would put them a bad spot as MS could simply decide later on to make a handheld of their own that copies all the stuff the OEMs did, undercut them in price, and squeeze them out of market share.
In short, it's not in good faith if MS were to do as you say here but not even so much as make a reference device for OEMs to build upon, like they've done with Surface laptops.
This could very likely be what they end up doing. But there are still so many questions, and the answers to them will determine how successful this would actually end up being.
1: How streamlined would Windows be on this type of device to optimize gaming performance?
2: Is the device really going to run Windows as we know it on PC, or is it primarily still Xbox OS with Windows extensions for additional functions? Technically the Series consoles already do this with the Dev Mode feature. So this new device could be like that, but no hard separate between Dev Mode & Retail Mode, and could run non-UWP apps for a change (as long as they're whitelisted)
3: How tailor-made is the "prebuilt" going to be? Is it just gonna be random off-the-shelf CPUs, GPUs and SSDs slapped into a cheap $20 case with an Xbox sticker on it and Windows installed, or are they going to afford it with at least some of the R&D they've done for prior console generations? The former is basically what the original Steam Machines did, and those failed, whereas the latter is closer to what the Steam Deck has done, and has been successful even without major volume or retail presence.
4: If it's going to lean closer to the R&D (and specification) they've done with prior Xbox consoles, how will modularity be handled (for the stationary home-style model)? It'd have to be more extensive than just installing a larger SSD, but it probably shouldn't run the gamut of supporting five million different lines of CPUs, GPUs, and memory modules. A balance between choice and ease-of-use has to be struck. That's also important to tighten and optimize the platform's stability when it comes to performance and ensuring QOL to the end-user is as close to a console-like experience as possible
For me, those are the four big questions. And, the answers to them are going to determine if this initiative finds success or failure, point blank. Everything else is just decoration on top, at most. Other things, like if users' Xbox console library carry over, are naturally answered within the answer to the four questions above. And for me, the answer to those questions will also probably answer other questions naturally (i.e how is access to storefronts like Steam going to be handled (upfront or through a Game Pass sub paywall), will MS manufacture reference systems (and if so, what SKUs will there be), will they remove the online paywall, etc.
This is also very possible.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Also,
You're overlooking the ML upscaling/downscaling side of this though. It's why I was stressing there are certain technological features and support in the APIs that SIE need to absolutely get solidified ahead of time, to make the process of supporting it as painless as possible. To where it's the hardware and APIs doing most of the heavy lifting, and on the programmer's side it's as easy as typing up metadata that the APIs understand to translate into system calls, knowing exactly what instructions need to be issued and when.
If they can do that, then the PS handheld doesn't exist as a bottleneck; it exists as an opportunity. It exists as an option, it exists to bring in more people who otherwise might not have bought a PlayStation. The shared technologies between the handheld and console need to be the same and be seamless, that's how devs can scope around the console and simply have system & API features scale settings down for the handheld to run correctly.
diffusionx
Gold Member
I think this is a good point. Does anyone really think Microsoft is going to "streamline" their OS by taking out all this shit? There is no way that gaming is a higher priority than the stuff you mentioned. That stuff isn't going anywhere and if anything future Windows will have more of it, not less, and have less options for users to strip it out.
Far more likely is that they just beef up that shitty Xbox app and maybe sink some more resources into DX which has been lagging for a decade.
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KenaiPhoenix
Member
Probably for the best, I dont think MS can deliver.
Besides the strategy of Microsoft is clearly Gamepass, and they are pushing it to the mobile market that is huge. They probably think it is not worth it.
Besides the strategy of Microsoft is clearly Gamepass, and they are pushing it to the mobile market that is huge. They probably think it is not worth it.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I really do not understand why they'd seek to go the hardware route after the way this generation has gone.
They have essentially conceded the fight to Sony and Nintendo so while a "next gen" wouldn't quite be like starting over from scratch, its still trying to build out of a position of weakness.
Also, I honestly think that the reality is setting in that the market is basically mature at this point and there is in fact little growth to be had. Value can be increased via transmedia enterprises (using videogame IP for TV and Movies) but I highly doubt that their streaming offer will create the masses of new subscribers like it needs to.
They have essentially conceded the fight to Sony and Nintendo so while a "next gen" wouldn't quite be like starting over from scratch, its still trying to build out of a position of weakness.
Also, I honestly think that the reality is setting in that the market is basically mature at this point and there is in fact little growth to be had. Value can be increased via transmedia enterprises (using videogame IP for TV and Movies) but I highly doubt that their streaming offer will create the masses of new subscribers like it needs to.
Gamezone
Gold Member
Handheld mode is one thing, but I wouldn't mind a more gaming focused version of Windows that is close to SteamOS. But they are thinking about this too late. We had gaming handhelds before the Steam Deck, and they became very popular after the Rog Ally, and still nothing.
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That's a shame, was looking to a portable Xbox/Surface hybrid
Very few games are ported to Linux which SteamOS is built on. Valve cannot take over PC gaming if they are reliant on Microsoft's API.
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
So you just didn't read my previous reply at all. It's alright man. Not even your fault Sony's doing this madness. Looking forward to see your opinions when all of the dust settles on this.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
At this point I'm just genuinely open to a legitimate 3rd player into the console space, preferably an outsider who's hungry for expansion and wanting to prove themselves as a success, to spice things back up. Nintendo's settled into a groove now that Switch has been such a massive success, so Switch 2 isn't quite an innovative risk, tho I feel Nintendo will still bring the innovations with the games themselves.
Meanwhile, SIE feel on one hand complacent (due to past successes and the home console (non-portable) side of the core gaming market basically consolidating around their brand with Xbox's implosion) and on the other hand, lost & confused. I chalk a lot of that up to much of the old guard from many gens ago having departed, and their senseless GAAS push through much of this gen. If they are in fact course-correcting, well it'd be a while to start seeing results of it in a more predictable fashion, and SIE are so isolated from their community that any such strategic shifts just simply don't get mentioned publicly. Unfortunately we're at the mercy of shoddy games media press and leakers, and we've seen already most of them are either shit at their job or disingenuous to use their platform for various agendas.
Those are reasons why I've been looking more closely at Valve's movements because if there's any company who's a platform holder in some capacity with a real shot at shaking things up, I have to say it's them. But given their size, they'll need tight synergies with OEMs to "make it happen" at scale. MS are trying to do similar things, but they're reactive and are coming off an abject failure in the traditional console space; there is simply no reason to trust they'll get consolized PC hybrids right when they couldn't revitalize their own console brand after spending $80+ billion dollars. I guess in theory there's also Apple, and they have been making strides in getting more core gaming devs/pubs to support macOS, but they lack the mindshare presence and experience in that space of SIE, Nintendo, Microsoft and Valve.
And beyond that there aren't really any other genuine options. Google's a no-go, same with Samsung. Tencent have been scaling back some of their investments in gaming, so little chance they'd commit to a console. Companies like SEGA, SNK and NEC aren't in the hardware game anymore. It's frustrating because IMO there are still some very cool & truly forward immersive directions gaming could go on, and at one point a few years ago I thought SIE could've been the ones to take the industry there, but that isn't the case anymore. They seemed like the best bet in terms of the "complete package" but a lot of decisions from them the past couple of years have shown they don't have that type of drive or vision, they are content with mostly playing things safe and maximizing profit margins.
Nintendo have potential in some aspects (less so in others, since they don't push tech the way SIE does, although this isn't all about advanced tech), but they usually don't truly push for a big innovation unless their backs are against the wall coming off a big failure. MS have the resources in theory, but their gaming division seems stretched thin in too many different & conflicting directions, their commitment to hardware is questionable, and their investment/commitment to technologies like VR/MR & such for gaming purposes is generally poor.
Well, one thing I'm thinking is the PS portable and PS6 will share the same CPU; if we're talking about game scope, we're probably talking about AI logic & physics systems primarily along with high & stable framerates...all of that stuff is generally CPU-dependent. As long as both devices share the same CPU, I wouldn't worry too much, even if the clocks for the portable were a bit lower. Technically the Series S & X had this same synergy in terms of CPU, but in addition to GPU differences, RAM differences, lack of hardware-accelerated upscaling features and such, MS's DX12U APIs are just generally less efficient than SIE's PS APIs it would seem like.
GPU-wise, whether there'd be worry of a handheld holding back the home console, well partly depends on what the home console is aiming for. Personally I think we're hitting a ceiling on how much general compute is needed for "real life" visuals, particularly in dedicated gaming devices. I don't think the PS6 needs to be a 50 TF monster, in fact I don't see it doing more than 25 and that should be perfectly fine. A PS6-based handheld aiming for 1/4th native GPU performance would only need 6.25 TF of compute, which should be more than doable by 2028 (for reference Switch 2 has ~ 3.1 TF when docked).
The heavy lifting's going to come from refinement in image scaling tech like PSSR, and hopefully other tech that could be AI-accelerated in dedicated hardware to ease the scalability process for devs, like maybe LOD generators trained on data devs provide in the cloud, to generate default LOD sets the game can then use to generate additional LODs dynamically at runtime based on reading framebuffer states. Or doing so in combination with other technologies like using dedicated, programmable hardware display layers for framebuffer output (so, outputting different parts of the calculated 3D framebuffer across separate layers with adjustable blending functions and such), and those layers having different pixel functions applicable.
Point with any of these features would be, in addition to streamlined APIs exposing access & manipulation easily, to also ensure the system has the hardware & associated background programs necessary in monitoring code output, doing inference & interpreting metadata to produce required results. And all of this needs to be shared technology between the devices within the ecosystem.
Fess
Member
To be honest, there won't be another competitor. Not a real one. Sony is sitting on an 80 million userbase with nobody else doing anything to stop them and will likely end the generation above 100 million, maybe 120.
Nobody can come in late and threat them for real. It's not realistic.
Valve/Steam could slowly work their way in, maybe over a decade and take some marketshares. But going by a few posts here SteamOS have an uphill battle, because of Linux and anti-cheat issues, which I didn't know about. No Fortnite, no COD, no FIFA/Madden, no Minecraft. That will limit their reach.
So for better or worse they're stuck working with Microsoft, and we all know how well they're doing things.
Living room Windows PCs could become more popular though. But PC gaming is currently too expensive to be a serious alternative for regular mainstream console gamers. So what's the alternative? Nothing. It's PS5, then PS6, and PS7, etc…
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
What price are you expecting the handheld to hit? Personally, I wouldn't expect anything less than $499. The PS Portal occupies the $199 space, and the PS6 is probably going to be $599 (digital only; $699 with a disc drive).
I'm also not expecting a PS6 that's going to be "astronomically" more powerful than PS5 Pro in terms of raw specs. As in, no 50 TF monster or something with 2 TB/s RAM bandwidth or a 4 TB SSD. Can't see that happening. I'm gonna guess it'll be ~ 25 TF tops, and probably around 1-1.2 TB/s bandwidth with a max 2 TB SSD around 8-9 GB/s raw bandwidth. And probably 24-32 GB of RAM.
The point of the ML/AI tech would not be to have a PS6 Portable that matches up with the PS6 indistinguishably. It'd be to be good enough so the portable can have low enough baseline specs to upscale to acceptable & quality performance levels, and to automate as much of the performance scaling process as possible so devs can implement the minimal amount of additional code & metadata on their end.
Well hopefully SIE shape up and cut out PC for everything aside most of the GAAS and maybe some super-legacy remaster releases. If they don't, then that gamut of specs to target is their own self-induced nightmare.
Again, I think it all comes down to what exactly the PS6 will actually entail, because what could be put in a PS6-based handheld that's satisfactory by 2028, and at a reasonable price, will be better than can be done today.
Plus, I've been of the mind for a while that the things truly holding back game visuals/fidelity isn't even the hardware so much these days. Go look at stuff like TLOU Part 2; still better fidelity than many current AAA games and that was made for a 1.84 TF GPU and Jaguar cores. No, most of the bottleneck is in the areas of dev time, budget, manpower and engine features (or limitations).
PS6 could be a 100 TF beast...good luck getting any meaningful use out of that if AAA games take 10 years to make with a team of 1,000 and budgets of $500+ million. Good luck getting more than a single game a gen from studios pushing the hardware. Good luck getting AAA games that aren't even more derivative and safe than many of the AAA we've seen this generation.
Well that's the thing with this rumored PS handheld: is it going to be a handheld-only or will it be a hybrid? We don't know yet. If it's a hybrid, will it be with a dock or will the HDMI-Out features be built directly into the handheld? Will it have different power profiles and clock settings when "docked" versus undocked?
We can't answer any of those questions right now.
I don't see how streaming devices like, I presume you're referring to PS Portal, are distractions. They just add options to the ecosystem and don't siphon dev resources from the console. Games don't even have to implement performance settings for the Portal, since it's solely streaming-based.
Now if you mean the PS Portal is a distraction from what could be iterative work on more immersive technologies like VR or MR? Well, there's maybe an argument to be made in that regard. Personally I'd rather see further iteration on PSVR than another Portal, but I'm also being a realist about it these days. PSVR2 bombed, although a lot of that was on SIE's watch with mistakes they made. PS Portal has been a success, costed a lot less in R&D and provides a through-line to a handheld device (sharing features of the Portal and PS5, and PS6) than the PSVR2 does.
Oh, 100% agreed on that. You know I've been very critical of the PC strategy. A while ago I still entertained the idea they could maybe do non-GAAS AAA ports 3-4 years later, or remakes 1-2 years later, or AA games 1-2 years later or Day 1 depending on the game. Well, not anymore. The cadence and expectations SIE have set with PC ports this gen is quite severe: they've not just trained those PS4 & PS5 users, but PC users as well, to eventually expect those games on other platforms. Like what reason is there to not expect a Ghosts of Yotei port to Steam a year from the PS5 launch, if not even sooner?
Whether that happens or not remains to be seen, but it's going to be something speculated by many right after the game releases, and that expectation just suppresses the sales potential the game'll have on PS5, especially for people who don't have FOMO.
Well if we're gonna touch on SIE's 1P output this gen and be really honest about it, then yes, even ignoring the GAAS stuff, even with the non-GAAS we can argue there have been drops vs. last gen. GOWR didn't resonate with most people as much as 2018 did, and that's down to creative decisions of the game (including overly incessant handholding for puzzles).
Spiderman 2 was not as well-received by people as the original or Miles Morales, again heavily down to creative decisions and also what some may perceive as lack of innovation or iteration on the original's gameplay loop. HFW wasn't as well-received as HZD, yet again, mainly down to creative choices tho ironically some also though the game was too challenging (odd IMO since people seem to love Soulsborne games for their challenge :/). That's not to say these games haven't done well commercially or are bad, just that they came off perhaps as "too safe" sequels with some creative choices in story areas that various fans of the earlier iterations didn't like.
OTOH, they've had genuine all-around hits this gen too, with games like Returnal, Astro Bot and GT7. But in their cases, you either have games which took a very novel, high-tier approach to mashing up otherwise disparate genre types (Returnal), represented some return to the "just fun" AA of older PlayStation (Astro Bot), or were a strong return-to-form entry that also clearly took command as market leader in its genre segment (GT7). Honestly, I think the other SIE studios need to take lessons from Housemarque, Team Asobi and Polyphony in that regard, at least the Western ones who put out big AAA non-GAAS this gen so far. I hope that either with some big 1P (from internal studio) AAA release left this gen, or at PS6's launch, we get a Sony AAA 3P story-driven epic that actually feels like a huge iteration on that genre type in terms of the storytelling and gameplay systems involved.
Okay but here's the thing: PS's legacy isn't completely tied up in being a "premium" product. In fact I would argue both Nintendo (to some extent) and Valve (to a major extent) have leeched off segments and demographics which once proliferated on PlayStation during the PS1-PS3 generations. I'd go even further, and argue that SIE's focus on the "premium" mature story-heavy games, came at the cost of cultivating segments which have since become more strongly associated with Nintendo and Steam (and with MP-centric stuff, to 3P franchises, some of which have since become platforms of their own to an extent like Fortnite).
IMO PlayStation was at its best when the 1P side struck a balance in variety between mature/story-heavy cinematic "premium" games, MP-centric stuff (SOCOM, MAG, Warhawk etc.), and AA games with somewhat younger appeal and arcady sensibilities (Parappa, Ape Escape, EchoChrome, LBP etc.). They hit that balance within the PS3 generation but financial issues caused them to cut back and focus on what they wanted to grow the most with PS4.
And so, we've now gotten to where things are today.
Still not seeing how a PS6-based portable leads to this type of problem, IF it's implemented well, but I guess we'll see what transpires.
100% agreed. The budget bloat for SM2 should've never happened, and even if the game still sold pretty well, it meant much lower margins for SIE. I'd also argue the cost for these Disney licenses might not be worth it in the long-term, and we know they have a 10-year exclusivity on the X-Men license from Disney. How much SIE were to pay for that long-term, I dunno, but hopefully there are clauses to renegotiate or even terminate the deal if needed.
Because the truth is, deals like that only bring their full worth if both parties deliver. I know Insomniac can deliver an X-Men fixing the problems of Spiderman 2 and push things forward, but can Disney deliver X-Men MCU films that don't suck and don't underperform at the box office? Time will tell, but results from Brave New World and especially Thunderbolts (which I enjoyed more than Brave New World, tho that's probably not saying much) are not promising at all. They've got a real problem with drumming back up big interest in the MCU, and the reshoot rumors for Fantastic Four make it sound like another Brave New World situation.
Where do Disney get away with thinking they can charge the prices they charge for some of their IP licensing, is beyond me. But it's SIE & Sony who agree to pay them, they just better make sure it's worth the money.
Except that's not entirely the case. It's pretty clear to me that Nintendo getting Duskbloods as a Switch 2 exclusive is a flex of sorts against PlayStation, and I don't blame them for that. It also shows me, especially in light of Nightreign's strong reception, that SIE's leadership deciding on what GAAS to pursue should be put into serious question. That leadership made a move for Foamstars and Concord over Duskbloods? Yeah, that's a problem.
It's also something considering Nintendo's getting a From Software exclusive this gen before PlayStation, even though it's Sony Corp who've been investing into them the past several years. Yes Sony Corp is not SIE, but it still gave me a WTF moment when I saw that reveal at the Switch 2 Direct, as it did for many. Nintendo have also hired people to help with 3P strategic partnerships for Switch 2, and they've got an exclusive out of Square Enix for launch in spite of SE seemingly shifting away from that messaging when it comes to PlayStation. Heck, they have already basically suggested the entire FF VII trilogy will be coming to Switch 2, that includes the yet-unreleased Part 3.
Maybe in terms of Western 3P, there isn't as much for SIE to worry about in "losing" priority to Nintendo; it's still a bit of a longshot if GTA6 gets a Switch 2 port, for example. But for Asian support? No, SIE's going to have a lot of competition with Nintendo going forward on that front and with Japanese support in particular, I'm expecting Nintendo to get a decent amount of exclusives (timed or full), and/or exclusive content in their versions of multiplats you won't find on PlayStation or other versions.
And TBH, I'm looking forward to it
. After all, it just helps generate more competition, at least in theory, and it means more for gamers. These are fair points and probably are also contributing to PC's growth in regions like Japan this gen. Not too much I feel really needs to be added, outside of course the PS5 price increases further eroding away at what little appeal remains.
Like, the hardware situation might be looking grim now but the software situation is very much dire. FF VII Rebirth, DD2 and MH Wilds were the three best chances to create sustained, long-term strong software sales for PS5 and in all three cases, they underperformed. I suspect total Japanese sales for say MH Wilds are very high, but that's with Steam picking up a lot of the slack in lower PS5 numbers.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Do you think the PS handheld is real?
I'd love a PS handheld, but I'd want it just to access my PS library on the go. Not streaming either. I want to download games to the device. However, I'm not sure we're at the point tech wise where Sony can release a handheld that plays PS5 games, while also making it affordable.
nial
Member
Lot of stuff/leaks point out to that being the case. Keep an eye over SIE's announcements in 2026 and 2027.
Crayon
Member
Steamos itself won't threaten windows, but when arm translation comes, using it you'd barely be playing your pc games on a pc anymore. Valve will have completely broken broken out. There would be only open competition for those devices, and they could end up being expected to run steamos.
A purpose-built Linux distro with resources behind it can evolve fast and steam's viral economy would be pretty fucking hard for ms to follow. It's everything they suck at.
A purpose-built Linux distro with resources behind it can evolve fast and steam's viral economy would be pretty fucking hard for ms to follow. It's everything they suck at.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
I still think that as far as handhelds go, a PlayStation handheld is a bigger market demo than PC handhelds.
Where I think SteamOS has a bigger future is in becoming the go-to gaming OS for PCs, primarily prebuilt gaming PCs. That's a major threat to Microsoft and where their focus should be on creating a lite weight mode for gaming within windows as soon as possible rather than wasting engineering time on getting Xbox BC working on Windows. There's such little actual value in that.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
If Sony is smart they'll push out a PS5 family handheld soon and hold off on the PS6 for as long as possible with the PS6 family handheld, but if they were on that timeline, I think we'd be hearing a lot more about the PS5 handheld than we have.
I don't think they can give the Switch 2 more than a year and a half on the market by itself. We'll see if the rumor mill starts to spin up more heavily late this year.
Crayon
Member
When handheld "pc's" are coming in a little cheaper and efficient with arm, and defaulting to steamos, they'll sell a lot more. Probably still a long way from a well executed ps portable. Who knows when that could actually happen, though.
twilo99
Member
In my opinion they need to switch to a different kernel or they need to heavily rework the current one because Windows NT has NEVER been good enough for mobile use where it needs to run on battery power.
It's really good when plugged into a power outlet, but it's lacking when it needs to be efficient.
It's really good when plugged into a power outlet, but it's lacking when it needs to be efficient.
nial
Member
It's not happening, both PS6 and PS6P will be released by late 2027. Nintendo Switch 2 will not be at over 20M units sold by that point, which is not insignificant, but not a big deal either, IMO.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
There's just zero incentive for Sony to release a PS6 in 2027, none.
The fundamental problem of handheld PCs that no one ever wanted to explore is the idea that PC users who have a PC library value playing said library on a handheld. The same people who in large part prefer to use KBM to play their games. The more popular genres on PC really struggle under the concept of a handheld shaped like a gamepad.
No one wants to play WoW on a gamepad and WoW isn't even on Steam...
PC handhelds when compared to console handhelds will always be niche and underperforming and expensive.
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Crayon
Member
All true about handhelds but this could spread to other form factors, inluding back around to a arm device that looks like a mini pc specialized for gaming. Like mammals returning to the ocean and evolving to be shaped like fish.
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
Yeah, 500 dollars lowest. Honestly wouldn't be surprised to see a matching 600 either.
Well they've got a real problem is they don't have a machine that is capable of doing things the Pro can't do by the end of the decade. But your given specs would still blow the PS5 out of the water and the portable would be less powerful than that.
Zero chance. None. These devs are not going to have mastered the ML techniques necessary for this, even if the handheld was sufficiently powerful for it. You said to someone else that you think the CPU in the PS6 and Portable will be the same? Flat 0% chance of that happening. I don't think it would be physically possible, and it definitely wouldn't be financially. Either they're charging more than the actual PS6 for it which means it's DOA, or they're legitimately losing 100+ dollars per unit, which makes it impossible for greenlighting.
It's a mixture. One (and just one) of the reasons why we've plateaued in visual fidelity this gen is because most studios have switched from baked assets to real time rendering. That is obviously going to be more demanding, and significantly enough to cut into visual advancement.
Which is why the previous point doesn't excuse much else that's happened this gen.
Not having to make LODs is supposedly a big productivity gain for artists, even if it's a greater challenge for programmers (of which we have in greater number with better tools than ever before, so it shouldn't be that much harder, but still). And in exchange for real time rendering and less clear visual bumps, we've also gotten stagnated gameplay (which RTR is supposed to help get past), less polish from the studios that used to do it best to a super-fine degree, longer dev times and worse packages on a holistic level. It's a joke.
It was always going to be awkward for this gen on top of everything else, but next gen was/could be the chance for a cleaner slate. The portable ruins that chance totally.
You can use your common sense. No, the portable won't be docked. It makes no sense from a logistics or marketing basis. If you want to play on a TV, buy the base PS6.
Anything that isn't the main console is a distraction. Simple as that.
PSVR2 should've never happened. PSVR failed. The meager VR fad was grounded before the sequel's release.
As for the Portal, it's successful as a peripheral. Ie, an add on to the PS5. It hasn't expanded the market - again, they're behind the fucking PS4. Now they want to recreate the Series S problem by making it its own independent SKU. It's nuts. If it does anything, it will just eat into PS6 console sales. I say it will be a net negative overall.
We are agreed there, though I was always extremely anti-PC when it came to PS, never entertained the premises they were pushing. But I'll tell you this: When they're already developing for PSP2/Vita 2/PS6 Amateur, PS5, PS5 Pro AND PS6, it's going to be a lot harder to justify to the dumbasses and apathetic paper pushers they shouldn't also just throw PC into that stew. After all, it's not like the masterful Nixxes even feel the need to actually optimize for PC now, despite having the lowest rate of projects they've probably ever. Just slap it in there.
Sorry, but I wouldn't call any of those all around hits. You need critical/consumer reception and financial success at scale for that, and none of those titles cover it. The closest to somewhere like both is Astro Bot, but it's not actually sold at high scale. GT7 is the top in dollar gross, but 5th in unit sales as far as the US is concerned, and we know GT is more popular internationally. I don't know how to extrapolate sales globally, but I am not optimistic that the US represents as small a percentage as postulated by this article.
Gran Turismo 7 is the Series’ Highest-Grossing Title in the USA
This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet: Gran Turismo 7 is the Series’ Highest-Grossing Title in the USA According to recent information shared by video game industry analyst Mat Piscatella, Gran Turismo 7 is now the highest-grossing title in the entire series in the US market...
www.gtplanet.net
And in terms of consumer response, it's been very mixed.
Returnal is a big success as far as critical reception goes, but nobody played it.
Nobody's legacy is completely tied up in one thing, but that's where PS has thrived. Simple as. PS2 wouldn't be what it was without the single player AAA flood that that machine benefitted from, often exclusively; and as soon as Sony developed a first party outfit, the general wheat was separate from the chaff pretty quickly. Nobody played Puppeteer, they did play Uncharted. Nobody cared about Medal of Honor or Resistance, they did care about God of War III. Socom and Syphon Filter were never sales hits, plenty of AAA luxurious single player titles going back to the PS1 outdid the likes of Ape Escape.
The conditions that even allow for that universality in coverage are not here anymore and they aren't coming back. You're never going to out-generalize PC, especially not when you're porting your small number of first party titles to the damned platform.
Sony is a platform holder, by nature they already get to cut in on Fortnite, COD, sports games, etc. They should be happy with that and understand that they need to specialize in a particular area if they hope to survive. The Colin Moriarty "you can/must have it all" ideal is a pipe dream. Let's use some critical thought here: Sony is bragging about record revenues and "record profits" right now. How is that the case if they've cancelled more projects at a perhaps a higher level/rate and definitely more expensive and botched studio purchases than any other point in first party history? Because the third parties are doing the job third parties are supposed to do. If they hadn't embarked on this terrible initiative alongside others and tripled down on tailoring their pipeline towards the stuff that made the PS4 and PS2 all-time successful and saved the PS3, they would have more enthusiasm/momentum, more consoles sold and more games out now and/or on the way on the schedule. All this has done is cut into their profit margins, which are still significantly lower than those of the PS4.
They did this because there were a bunch of dunces like Hermen Hulst who wanted to use the idea of "just doing Fortnite" as a a way of enticing the board and climbing the corporate ladder. They got too greedy and arrogant (yeah, I'm saying it), and became short sighted.
Let's wait for Duskbloods to come out first.
I don't see that as some kind of flex, but in any case, Nightreign's "reception" thus far has been high sales from PeeSea pirates and low ratings from the same audience. I think From is a couple games away from blowing their glaze cache, but I definitely don't think Duskbloods has been helped by Nightreign. In the long run, the only thing worse than a shit game nobody plays is a shit game everyone plays.
Frankly, I don't think most Japanese games have been doing Sony many favors for a while now.Maybe in terms of Western 3P, there isn't as much for SIE to worry about in "losing" priority to Nintendo; it's still a bit of a longshot if GTA6 gets a Switch 2 port, for example. But for Asian support? No, SIE's going to have a lot of competition with Nintendo going forward on that front and with Japanese support in particular, I'm expecting Nintendo to get a decent amount of exclusives (timed or full), and/or exclusive content in their versions of multiplats you won't find on PlayStation or other versions.
And TBH, I'm looking forward to it
Barring the complete disaster that was Japanese development in the 7th and 8th gens, do people really want to use their PS5s to play Disgaea? I think not.
If they stop giving ground to PC, PlayStation has the total claim (and even still an advantage now, since very few Japanese games have really overtaken PS on PC) to selling the Japanese equivalent of what sells best on PS consoles. The FF15s, KH3s, Personas, etc. Which there are fewer of in general. Can't do much about that.
We just don't know the MHW sales splits. But I'm not surprised that Rebirth, XVI and DD2 underperformed. They all underperformed on PC too. They're all very flawed projects from an appeal standpoint. Creatively speaking, Dragon's Dogma 2 was more like a Remaster than a sequel. FF7 has been overexposed and is coming up to being 30 years old. Time to move on. XVI's low rent character action game combat, MMO-tier design, and poor man's GoT with Anime Friendship thrown in just wasn't where it was at, and I identified that (to much argument) before it came out.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Any device created by someone who is not a platform holder is going to be sold at a premium.
Any device running a non hardware specific OS is going to have overhead which impacts performance.
Any device that doesn't generate significant money from software is going to be underpowered and/or overpriced.
Any device that doesn't have console like TAM is going to be underpowered and/or overpriced.
ZehDon
Member
Well remember, back when Microsoft wanted to push Windows 95, they realised that the overlap between tech enthusiasts and PC Gamers was large, and adoption of one group generally followed the other. Games, it turned out, was a bit of a gateway drug. To improve adoption of their OS, they made a push to have better support for games - and we saw a few ports of big titles, like DOOM 95. And it worked. What Valve has done with Proton and SteamOS is give Linux what it's lacked: support for games. And if I worked at Microsoft, I'd see it for what it is: their own strategy and thus a long-term threat to Windows.
Windows has become so bloated that even if a competitor has to run a complete translation layer between the game and their OS it still comes out ahead of Windows. Given how stagnant the hardware market has become and how unoptimised games are these days, we may end up back in the early gaming days, doing the equivalent of booting into DOS to play our favourite games, only this time, it'll be Linux instead.
Crayon
Member
I must be misunderstanding because it sounds like you're describing any open computing platform.
nial
Member
Decreasing hardware sales, past the console's peak period, say otherwise.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
That's exactly right.
The formula that allows consoles to sell the way they do is pretty specific. PC has a lot of advantages over console especially holistically, but people often ignore the drawbacks. Similar drawbacks are why iPhone is more popular in the US than Android.
You're not going to be able to mass market an individual SKU as I've described that has any real market pentration ability compared to a console.
There is a reason the Steam Deck has sold like 3-4 million units compared to the Switch at 150 million units.
Even if Microsoft had put out a handheld with the exact same specs as the Steam Deck, it would have outperformed the Steam Deck and it would have cost less than the Steam Deck.
There is a reason why other handhelds are more expensive than the Steam Deck. Can you point to one that is better in performance and cheaper?
Why is that? Because Valve makes money from Steam every other manufacturer has to make more money from their hardware sales. Hardware manufacturers simply cannot sell their hardware at a loss because there are no software sales to make up for it.
This is fundamental misunderstanding of a product life cycle.
What year did the Switch peak in sales?
The goal of a product lifecycle isn't simply to replace a product after peak, but when those sales are no longer viable and it makes more sense from a perspective of margins to introduce new hardware, but that hardware has its own R&D and likely a higher price tag. You still have people playing PS4 and X1 to sell to, there is sizeable TAM to sell to rather than rush out a new console.
Given the general quality of your posts, I'm stunned that this response came from you.
Crayon
Member
I don't think you are necessarily contradicting anything I said.
nial
Member
Your response can only make sense if I stated that the console must be replaced immediately after its peak period, yet that's not what I said; the console already had its peak period two FYs ago, which would be followed by four consecutive FYs of decreasing hardware sales, and that's exactly the moment you should launch your next product to not see the risk of losing your sales momentum.
The 50% PS4 people data from ages ago would be almost completely reduced by 2027, and you will have SIE selling 10M units AT MOST by that point, how is this not an appropriate moment for PS6?
You're not making yourself any favors bringing up the Switch, which not only peaked later at its lifecycle compared to the PS5 (5th FY vs. 4th FY), but it was also an abnormally high peak of 28.8M units, result of the pandemic boost; while the PS5, in comparison, sold 18.5M units in its 5th FY. The Switch is also going to be replaced 4 years after its peak, why shouldn't the PS5 be replaced in a similar timeframe (only off by 4 months)?
There's not much data to support that, really. For one, both God of War Ragnarok and Spider-Man 2 had better opening sales and legs all around, is there much ground to suggest any drops here and there outside of Horizon Forbidden West, which we know was heavily impacted by PS Plus?
24-30% sounds about right for GT7's share in the US. It's 5th in Japan as well, above 5/6/Sport/PSP and behind 1/2/3/4. Gran Turismo Sport, in comparison, only managed to be above 6 and PSP, while it became the second best-selling game in the series worldwide, only being slightly behind Gran Turismo 3. I could see where that data is coming from, to be honest.Sorry, but I wouldn't call any of those all around hits. You need critical/consumer reception and financial success at scale for that, and none of those titles cover it. The closest to somewhere like both is Astro Bot, but it's not actually sold at high scale. GT7 is the top in dollar gross, but 5th in unit sales as far as the US is concerned, and we know GT is more popular internationally. I don't know how to extrapolate sales globally, but I am not optimistic that the US represents as small a percentage as postulated by this article.
And in terms of consumer response, it's been very mixed.
Gran Turismo 7 is the Series’ Highest-Grossing Title in the USA
This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet: Gran Turismo 7 is the Series’ Highest-Grossing Title in the USA According to recent information shared by video game industry analyst Mat Piscatella, Gran Turismo 7 is now the highest-grossing title in the entire series in the US market...
Returnal is a big success as far as critical reception goes, but nobody played it.
Yeah, I think you have a completely different perception compared to how people generally viewed SCE's first-party efforts in the PS3 generation:
'Puppeteer' is why Sony should make kids games again
www.nbcnews.com
Also, don't you guys think that having yet another discussion about SIE's long-term strategy in a thread about cancelled Xbox hardware is a little bit too much?
ProtoByte
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
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Zacfoldor
Member
There is so much competition in this market and none of it has to run Windows.
MS realized they needed to fix Windows to be as adaptable as a real gaming OS before they could compete in a world with real handhelds now that we know how Windows holds gaming back.
All these years I always thought that the reason games crashed on Windows and ran like shit was the 'nonuniform hardware' of PCs, but turned out it was because Windows is terrible for gaming and there hasn't ever really been a perfect OS option on PC that could compete even with the Switch OS. When you have to be everything for everybody you cannot be the best at any one thing. Windows needs to be reimagined for gaming at this point. What have they been doing all these years that they are just now realizing this? The left hand obviously isn't aware of the right hand's activities in this big companies and bloating up windows for more ads and bullshit has been the only goal for the OS for years and years. Now we have UE stutter on our Windows games and MS are investigating ARM to make something happen. Way too little way too late is their motto.
They played themselves.
MS realized they needed to fix Windows to be as adaptable as a real gaming OS before they could compete in a world with real handhelds now that we know how Windows holds gaming back.
All these years I always thought that the reason games crashed on Windows and ran like shit was the 'nonuniform hardware' of PCs, but turned out it was because Windows is terrible for gaming and there hasn't ever really been a perfect OS option on PC that could compete even with the Switch OS. When you have to be everything for everybody you cannot be the best at any one thing. Windows needs to be reimagined for gaming at this point. What have they been doing all these years that they are just now realizing this? The left hand obviously isn't aware of the right hand's activities in this big companies and bloating up windows for more ads and bullshit has been the only goal for the OS for years and years. Now we have UE stutter on our Windows games and MS are investigating ARM to make something happen. Way too little way too late is their motto.
They played themselves.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
NGL considering the hubris (seemingly) at SIE these days, that is kind of a grim outlook. I never expected these consolized PC devices to suddenly matching PS or Nintendo market share saturation in the next 3 or so years, or even Xbox market share (of the XBO generation anyhow), and have felt that their share in the market will be gradual over a 10-year period, after which the growth could likely accelerate at a faster pace. At the same time, it is a bit hard to even gauge where the demand is right now because the top device in that space, Steam Deck, hasn't been marketed anywhere to the degree of a traditional game console, and hasn't had retail presence the way a traditional console has had, either. So we at least need to wait for that to crystalize before getting a better idea of where demand is vs. what supply can provide.
Admittedly I don't know a lot about the anti-cheat situation on Linux (I'm guessing it can be easily bypassed?), but I've heard things related to HDMI output licensing issues with the platform, which affects GPUs in that area. Hopefully that is resolved in the future. And I do agree that not having access to Fortnite (at least in theory; don't know how easy it is to get EGS set up on a Steam Deck), FIFA/Madden (similar situation to EGS, I guess), COD (guess due to Battle.NET) and Minecraft (assuming there's no native Linux version, and maybe dueto needing a Microsoft account? But the former can be solved with emulation through Proton and the latter shouldn't be OS-dependent so is it something else like maybe with anti-cheat?) would limit things. But, again, the expectation for these consolized PC devices should've never been seeing them reach PS numbers 3-5 years from now, because that was never realistic. If that market is lucky and one of the big players (Valve or Microsoft, tho my money's on Valve) gets it right, it can maybe collectively grow to an install base size that Xbox Series has done so far this gen (~ 28 - 30 million), over the next 4-6 years. However that'll depend on Steam Deck devices getting regular retail presence, MS's spin on the concept actually launching well, and maybe the initial reintroduction of Steam Machine devices.
Personally I'm feeling that as time goes on there'll be a growing niche for purpose-specific gaming devices targeting specific segments, and probably appealing to retro gaming sensibilities. Not devices that'll compete with the market share of PlayStation or Nintendo, or something like Steam for that matter, but can coexist with them in a smaller niche and justify multiplatform releases all the same. The appeal of those devices would be in utilizing modern technologies to purposely constrain themselves to realistically mimic performance of older systems, but still be friendly with current tools, and targeting creation of new games to run on them that just happen to also have versions on the big mainstream systems too (either Day 1 or after some delay period).
We're talking systems that'd have to get creative in how they're designed, though, and understand the technological constraints of actual older systems, while using modern tech to try replicating compromises, do certain things better, certain other things worst, focus on physical media & packaging (doesn't have to be exclusively physical though) etc. I'd like to see such devices in the market if only to appeal to a segment that's been steadily growing over the years, and offer some character & excitement in what is otherwise becoming an increasingly safe, bloated and overly corporate/sterile mass-market mainstream gaming landscape :S
Fess
Member
Yeah I just learned about those games not working days ago. For me it tanked the whole strategy. My initial thought was that SteamOS would steamroll the whole industry. Eventually. Only negative thing I learned while using my Steam Deck as a living room PC is that doing modding is not as easy as on Windows, the OS itself is super stable.
But as it is I don't think they'll even really 5 million sold devices. It'll be super niche.
Anyhow, right now I just want a more convenient way to play PC games on TV from different stores. I currently boot into Steam big picture mode and while it's great for 90% of the games I'm playing it is super annoying for the last 10%. You have to add non-Steam games manually outside of big picture mode and can't see playtime and no achievements earned or screenshots either. It's really not good enough at all. And going Steam-only is not an option.
Playnite is the closest solution for multi store usage that I have any experience in. It's good, but feels janky compared to Steam. Though it was a while since I used it, might be better now I guess. I don't understand why there isn't more apps like that. Would be awesome with a frontend similar to Retropie and Emulation Station on Windows where you can flick through the different launchers and your libraries just using a controller and never have to go out to Windows.
Linux runs on a much wider range of devices than Windows and is better for games tested by SteamOS.
Windows is made by idiots in suits like Phil Spencer and is therefore a poorly designed system because it has no vision for the future and no scalability.
What MS should do was release its own Linux distribution with a Windows compatibility layer, abandoning it as legacy.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Of course a portable would be less capable than a PS6 with those specs but, again, it's not about matching the PS6 in performance. It's about matching the PS6 in feature set and development pipeline tools. If those are the same, and scalability on the end of the APIs is very sufficient, then most of the hard work is already done for developers (when it comes to optimizing for scalability targeting different performance profiles).
If it takes time for devs to master the techniques, then it just takes time for them to master the techniques. Nothing lost really except potential selling points on the dev's end, which should motivate them to master the techniques faster. We've had gens in the past where it took many years for devs to fully wrap their heads around the hardware, so this wouldn't be too different from that.
As for the CPUs being 100% the same...okay fair point they may not be. Maybe the portable would have a cut-down number of cores, smaller on-chip caches and less X3D V-Cache than the PS6. But once again, it's about the feature sets being the same, and the architecture being the same. That way, everything is binary compatible in terms of the code, and a PS6 game wouldn't need translation to a different binary format just to run on the portable, although there may need to be changes to certain bits of code handling geometry density calculations, and how some physics systems in the game run.
Things many devs will already have been doing for years now, it's just that a next-gen platform could streamline parts of the process for them with metadata exposing parts of the API which communicate with hardware that can automate some aspects of that scalability which otherwise have to be hard-programmed by devs today. I'd expect devs to train data models on their games running on different performance profiles to ascertain best settings, and implement metadata based on the feedback. The tools used for training the models should ideally be compatible with SIE's SDK and APIs, as it's SIE's hardware which needs to understand the metadata and know how to work with it.
Could be argued studios jumped too fast to that transition considering the current base consoles don't have the dedicated hardware to totally streamline real time rendering for AAA games. Yes they may be compatible with engines that are capable of it, but the hardware itself? Not really.
PS5 Pro and Switch 2 are really the first mass-market game platforms with some of that hardware implemented in them, but we're already halfway through this gen. I'd expect more devs to get to grips with it though before 10th-gen kicks off.
This is what I'm suggesting: okay for now, LODs may be a greater challenge for programmers, but it doesn't have to remain that way. SIE are generally good at identifying what aspects of game development are needlessly complicated and dragged out to the point of impacting release timing and quality, at least historically speaking. On the hardware side they have people like Mark Cerny who would see these things, so I'm sure if we can acknowledge the impact on auto-generative LODs unto programmers, Cerny would know of that too, and try exploring ways to reduce that complication for those programmers.
Hence, why I'm going to be in favor a "smarter not stronger" architecture approach for new consoles, because that will also naturally benefit devices scaling up and down the product stack when it comes to performance. And the more work is done in that regard, the less it matters how "powerful" one device in the ecosystem is versus another; the work to get a game running smoothly across both will be as minimized as possible on the developer end, so they can focus on actually designing their game. I don't expect 10th-gen to account for every one of such complications, either off the bat or by the end of that gen, but it has to continue onward from what current-gen is (finally) somewhat already starting to do.
The portable only ruins that chance if SIE don't focus on technologies that help strongly streamline and automate parts of the scalability optimization process, so where a dev can make the console their base target and just apply some simple settings via metadata or whatever to get things running smoothly on the portable.
The potential that would have in benefiting all aspects of development, and even their cloud streaming infrastructure, is too big to simply pass up.
Well, I meant "docked" in the sense that it has some form of HDMI Out, which isn't out of the realm of possibility. And maybe a USB-C connection for an optional controller input when connected to a TV display device. The screen and handheld button functions would disable in this setup though, but that could allow for some power to be redirected to a small processing bump even if there's no physical dock involved.
It was just an idea :/
PSVR was relatively successful for what it was. I don't think PSVR2 failed simply because it was a VR device. It's because it was a VR device that offered poor total value to prospective customers who weren't Day 1 diehards, which was a small pool to begin with. It had a weak lineup of games leveraging the technology for a long while, relied on mainly 3P ports to sustain itself, had no PSVR BC, had no wireless option, and was overpriced for what it offered outside of pure technical specs.
PSVR2 was just a poor follow-up to the original; if PSVR 1 was like the Japanese Mega CD (or Neo Geo AES, or PC-Engine), PSVR2 was like the 32X (or Hyper Neo Geo 64, or PC-FX). And SIE basically gave up on pushing it after about a year, the PC compatibility was a last-ditch effort to salvage what they could squeeze worth-wise out of a device they themselves failed to support.
VR is not going to get mass-market adoption until a platform holder with a gaming system that has genuine software support, makes a "good enough" cheap entry-level slimline headset that can be affordably included as a standard offering in a main SKU. IMO SIE (in theory) are still the best chance of that happening, but because of PSVR2's failure plus a new corporate direction I don't think they'll attempt VR again probably another 5-7 years. And by then, the focus will have to be MR (Mixed Reality) because MR is the actual future of VR, not VR itself.
If not SIE, then maybe Nintendo, if they feel whatever comes after Switch 2 needs to try a big gamble again. And if not them, then maybe Valve and/or Microsoft with some future consolized PC platform once that mature reaches a good maturation point, but that is at least 10 years out IMO.
But if both devices are part of the PS6 family, SIE would just count the sales together. And, I have a hard time seeing how a handheld would be a negative for them in markets like Japan, unless of course the actual software isn't appealing enough for them (which is part of the problem PS5 has, that and what software that's appealing, most of it isn't even exclusive).
There are various reasons why PS5 is behind PS4 launch-aligned, chief being the higher prices and how COVID screwed them over in 2021 and half of 2022. Second to that, I'd say the lack of genuine exclusives is the next-biggest reason, since almost all the big and mid-sized hits (especially 3P, even from Japan & Asia) you can get on PC (Steam) and Xbox these days, usually Day 1. The third biggest reason, would be SIE's insipid multiplatform strategy this gen, primarily WRT Steam, but having some games like GOW Ragnarok, GT7 & HFW cross-gen with PS4 softened the impact they could've had in moving PS5s.
The existence of PSVR2 and Portal? Those are not significant reasons why PS5 is tracking behind PS4 IMO and in fact, I'd argue PS5 sales would be further behind PS4 launch-aligned if those devices didn't exist. Yes the PSVR2 is for all purposes commercially dead, but the Portal is still doing pretty well, and it gives an experience between it and PS5 that isn't easily mimicked on PC, Xbox or Nintendo. It's helped with retention of some hardcore PS fans within the ecosystem, giving them more ways to spend more time playing their games on their PlayStations.
TBF that is a concern I have as well, but hopefully sensible minds at SIE would shut that down quickly. You mentioned all those PS devices but the thing is...they are still all PlayStation devices! Those are all still devices within a product ecosystem SIE have full control over, devices that all are optimized up and down the stack for the same APIs, OS, kernel and backend services SIE provides. Devices that SIE have full say in when it comes to the UI and features, security implementation, sales & marketing etc.
PC offers them none of that level of tight integration and control. "PC" for many just means Windows, and a platform holder like SIE, who should be heavily independent, shouldn't make themselves a dependent on another company's platform, especially one who's been a direct competitor to them in the past, and could use the growing homogeny in shared tech between consoles & PC to push SIE's own devices out of favor as time goes on.
If SIE were to do as you are saying they could do, then it'd just be a sign they are compromised to the core, and there was no saving them from a painful fate, sad as that'd be to admit.
Sorry, but I wouldn't call any of those all around hits. You need critical/consumer reception and financial success at scale for that, and none of those titles cover it. The closest to somewhere like both is Astro Bot, but it's not actually sold at high scale. GT7 is the top in dollar gross, but 5th in unit sales as far as the US is concerned, and we know GT is more popular internationally. I don't know how to extrapolate sales globally, but I am not optimistic that the US represents as small a percentage as postulated by this article.
Gran Turismo 7 is the Series’ Highest-Grossing Title in the USA
This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet: Gran Turismo 7 is the Series’ Highest-Grossing Title in the USA According to recent information shared by video game industry analyst Mat Piscatella, Gran Turismo 7 is now the highest-grossing title in the entire series in the US market...
And in terms of consumer response, it's been very mixed.
Returnal is a big success as far as critical reception goes, but nobody played it.
People definitely played Returnal, it's sold at least 1.2 million by this point simply on PS5, but it's also a new IP from a studio that just recently got acquired by SIE at the time, in a genre that isn't necessarily mainstream to begin with. Relative its likely budget, I think it's sold just fine.
GT7 is the best-selling GT in a long while and probably near the 14/15 million mark, or at least I've seen others who track its sales (and those of the IP) give that figure. So even if it's 5th in unit sales in America, that's probably a tight Top 5 and, well, it's America. GT's biggest market probably isn't even the US, and non-US markets make up most of its sales and revenue.
Astro Bot is a highly polished AA 3D platformer without the name brand of Mario or even Sonic. To a lot of people, it's a completely new IP even tho it had a pack-in game with the PS5 at launch and a VR game during PS4 gen. I'd say give the IP time for more entries to build up mindshare and grow its market, and they'll have a game that's a critical hit and moves at least Sonic numbers (if not better) in a good 4-5 years from now.
If you want a 3D platformer to do Mario numbers, you need a LOT of time building rapport with the public, and consistent quality on top of that. Traditionally speaking, only Mario has accomplished this but Astro Bot could be the next IP to follow in its wake, we'll just have to see.
For me, the importance of games like Ape Escape, EchoChrome, Syphon Filter etc. wasn't that they sold as well as the big guns, because that was never true. Their importance is that it gave Sony as a publisher consistency of presence in the market, without being so reliant on big 3P for exclusives or exclusivity deals to fill gaps in their own 1P release pipeline. The other importance is that those smaller games could (and often were) experiment grounds for gameplay concepts the AAA games couldn't risk doing outright, and if those concepts solidified in the smaller games (and if there was opportunity to utilize them in bigger titles), we'd see them adopted into the big AAA titles even if the smaller titles eventually went away.
And ironically, in this era where SIE want to be a transmedia powerhouse, some of those smaller and more niche IP could've been perfect properties for various anime, manga, film, TV show, and merchandise opportunities in a way IP like TLOU (by their nature of being for mature audiences exclusively AND being extremely story-heavy as well as very "grounded") simply can't. But that only really works if those smaller/more niche IP have some degree of consistency in presence within their main market, which is games. Which is something SIE have failed to do for over a decade now.
This is probably somewhere that you and I are going to strongly differ. Yes, as a platform holder SIE get their Fortnite and COD cuts, and they satisfy a good deal of their ecosystem revenue, but if SIE as a whole shift toward embracing mechanisms in service of that mentality, why should care any more about them than I do for Apple? It's also worth mentioning, at least some time in the past, SIE were vehement about not wanting to be as reliant on 3P as they were in the past. Now, that was probably something they used to justify their now mostly-failing GAAS initiative, but if they were more forward-thinking I feel that would have been in reference to just being too reliant on 3P revenue/profit streams in general.
When Microsoft seemed they were on a warpath to buy as many big publishers and IP as possible, I'm sure SIE realized that those same 3P they relied on in the past were now getting gobbled up by a massive $3 trillion behemoth who still sent unclear messages as to whether they would be using those 3P as new exclusive 1P content to compete against PlayStation, or do the 3P "business as usual" route. We know now what choice MS has made, but that wasn't clear at all in 2021, 2022 or even 2023. The environment of big companies buying big publishers might've cooled off for now, but it'll probably kick back up in a couple of years. SIE and even Sony as a whole don't have the money to compete with some of those other big companies or investment groups (like the Saudi fund) to buy out some of these giant publishers, if that starts happening again. SIE have no idea of knowing what those buyers will do to the companies they buy, or how they'll work with SIE going forward.
Just look at Zenimax and ABK right now. Yes somehow, PlayStation's got a COD bundle post-acquisition and post-contract when we'd expect Xbox to have that bundle instead, so maybe Microsoft are willing to do marketing deals with SIE after all. Something I didn't think they'd do, but we'll see if that continues going forward. I bring it up tho because in general, after MS acquired those 3P publishers I think it was safe to assume the degree of autonomy they'd have in doing co-development or co-marketing deals with PlayStation would be reduced to zero. Maybe that is not exactly the case, but it does feed into another point: buying Zenimax and ABK has bolstered MS's ability to expand as a publisher...including getting publishing rights to OTHER publisher's games. Case-in-point: Ninja Gaiden 4.
That introduces a degree of competition which is probably going to make it harder for SIE to get 3P deals, because now it'll be about what they can offer as a publisher vs. what Microsoft can offer as a publisher...who's still putting the game on PlayStation Day 1 anyway. Ironically, MS's insistence to support PS (and Nintendo) actually gives them a theoretical advantage over SIE for these types of publishing deals, because MS at least are prioritizing true Day 1 multiplatform support across PS, Nintendo (dependent on game), Windows, and Steam. And potentially Game Pass (tho that can be a handicap, so it'd be selective). SIE don't offer that same type of Day 1 support and if they intended to do so, people would expect the same from internal 1P, which would create a mountain of other optics & actual market problems for PlayStation hardware going forward.
Why do I bring all that up? Easy. To show the importance for SIE to rely more on expanding their internal 1P offerings, not just in terms of games & game types, but teams among their studios and total number of studios. A strength of PS has always been a balance in having big 3P support AND having a great variety of exclusives. On the latter point however, they have been declining this generation and there's no way to argue otherwise. More big 3P seem less interested in making exclusives, and exclusivity deals are costing more. Big companies and investment firms are buying more influence among 3P to further deprioritize exclusives, if not buying 3P outright, and potentially screwing them up in the process (see: Saudi fund & SNK, or Embracer and like 80% of their acquired studios). That means less stability in dependable 3P offerings within the market covering certain niches, which can ultimately hurt platforms needing those niches filled.
The only surefire way around this for a platform holder like SIE is to bolster their own internal pipelines, and be smart about it. They were NOT smart about it for most of this gen, due to their terrible GAAS approach combined with porting most of their big non-GAAS 1P to PC/Steam before half the gen was even over. On the point of those two things, we agree. What we don't agree on is SIE's responsibility to be more self-reliant in expanding the variety of their 1P output to make up for shrinking content differentiation in certain market niches. You're of the opinion that PlayStation simply getting those games at all from 3P alone is enough; from what I've had to say in response to that, should show I don't exactly agree. But that's fine; we have our reasons for seeing it differently.
The truly important thing is: what way does SIE see it? Guess we'll be finding out over the course of these 2 or so years, as rest of PS5 gen plays out.
Agreed.
Well, time wasn't too kind here, as apparently Nightreign's now sold 3.5 million copies across all platforms. I never doubted the game would do big numbers: it's a (MP) follow up of sorts to one of the best-selling games this gen. It likely won't do ER's lifetime numbers, but I can see it hitting 12-15 million for sure if support is good and sales remain sufficient.
Duskbloods, being a Switch 2 exclusive, will sell less than Nightreign but I'm sure it also has a smaller budget. If it hits well, and it's marketed decently, I can see it doing 4-5 million lifetime at least from launch 'till 2030. I think Nintendo & From Software would consider that a success, especially for what is a new IP exclusive to Switch 2. I wouldn't bet against From Software; not just for those reasons but, remember, Sony Corp & SIE have invested a lot into them, too.
If From Software were to have a downfall or whatever, that negatively impacts SIE, so of course I wouldn't hope or wish for it to happen. Or at this point, even entertain the idea, and I think Nightreign's reception is showing that among many gamers & fans, they're doing right by them even with a more recent focus on MP (in-between the next SP project(s)).
Well my thing is, with Nintendo's solidified presence in Japan, as long as they have similar presence in global markets (or just good presence, even), PS won't have those IP you mentioned on lock in Japan, even if SIE stopped porting games to PC & Steam. Most of those devs are still going to look at Switch 2 and consider that a platform worth supporting, it's just inevitable.
I won't be surprised if P6 and KH3 are both getting Switch 2 versions Day 1 or close to it. Maybe that is part of the reason they're taking longer than expected to come out? Now a FF VII Remake Part 3? If it's even more ambitious than Part 2, I can see being a timed PS5 exclusive (or likely, a PS5/Steam timed exclusive thing considering SE these days), but I'd be surprised if there is no Switch 2 version a year out.
Especially considering people overseeing the series have already expressed interest in bringing the whole trilogy to the platform, they'll find ways to make it happen. I'd be more curious if Nintendo work with SE to have Switch 2-exclusive content in their version to make up for a late port, though. It's certainly possible.
Well I'll agree to the idea that XVI's reception probably negatively impacted Rebirth, which came out not even a year later. Just like how XIII's reception negatively impacted XV, and XV's negatively impacted XVI's (maybe not so much VII Remake's tho, since that had so much nostalgia fueling its hype).
As to MH Wilds at least underperforming on PC, we actually don't know that yet. What we do know, is most of the reviews are in Chinese, so that's where most of the PC base for the game is on Steam. Capcom haven't given a sales update yet (to my knowledge), but when they do, I won't be surprised if PC/Steam is the majority of the game's sales in Asian regions due to markets like China and Japan.