Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Same, but it's not as easy as it might sound, as evidenced by Diablo III.
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XCOM: Enemy Unknown |OT| Neo GAF is Under Alien Control
- Thread starter Jintor
- Start date
Same, but it's not as easy as it might sound, as evidenced by Diablo III.
Had a really rough UFO landing earlier. 2 packs of Elite Mutons triggered pretty close together, shot at me and missed which blew a hole in the wall, revealing a sectopod. I ran like hell away from that on the next turn and triggered 4 Heavy Floaters.
My heavy got critically wounded, revived, and crit later on to end up with 1hp so I got really lucky. This is near the endgame and I've felt like it's been easy, but you do still need to be on your toes and having stuff like this happen on a whim is intense to handle.
Also floaters are dumb as fuck. I can't tell if it's intentional or not.
My heavy got critically wounded, revived, and crit later on to end up with 1hp so I got really lucky. This is near the endgame and I've felt like it's been easy, but you do still need to be on your toes and having stuff like this happen on a whim is intense to handle.
Also floaters are dumb as fuck. I can't tell if it's intentional or not.
Honestly, I rather have difficulty front-loaded than back-loaded. What's worse, playing through 20h only to have all your guys die right before the end, or having all your guys die 3h in and getting to restart right away? 
It's not like it becomes a cakewalk in the end.
It's not like it becomes a cakewalk in the end.KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Really? Floaters and Heavy Floaters are probably my most problematic enemies. They can go wherever they want and still have half cover.
They seem to have a knack for teleporting across the map right behind my flying snipers, who then instant kill them next turn. The ones that just fly around and attack seem sporadic and sometimes just move and do nothing...maybe I'm just getting lucky.
Some more interesting explorations of psi-powers might have worked out, but I have no idea what they could've done I guess.
Not to mention to deal with Chrysallids and zombies! they're pants once you have a team that can actually deal damage to the fuckers, but if you're pinging zombies for two damage a shot and they're gaining ground on you with every step, you're fucked.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Started my Classic run.
Getting killed left and right.
Getting killed left and right.
Yea, I'd be annoyed if when I get better tech I'm still getting destroyed left and right. In my opinion it wouldn't make sense in the XCOM universe to have a back-loaded difficulty. You're encountering aliens with advanced tech, of course they're going to beat your ass at first. You survive through the odds and do your best to level the playing field by researching tech etc.Honestly, I rather have difficulty front-loaded than back-loaded. What's worse, playing through 20h only to have all your guys die right before the end, or having all your guys die 3h in and getting to restart right away?
Mr_Appleby
Member
that's generally what they do for me, land next to my sniper and die.
Had my first encounter with one of those
enemy tank things, sectopod?
Brutal. Took out half of their own ship.
I'm getting a lot countries on the verge of leaving. Maybe it's bad luck and those choices you get for which country to take a mission for have skipped over the most troubled countries... but man. I'm only 2 months in and i have 2 satellite uplinks and in the process of building a third. Maximal satellites operational and I'm still about to lose most countries on my starting continent.
Not that I expected to carry every country to the endgame and have all but one covered by satellite, like I did on normal, but that alien base assault can't come around soon enough.
Incendiary
Banned
I had one mission where I fought about eight floaters, and literally for four turns in a row, one floater would fly and land in the back of my party, right next to my assault guy with a shotgun, which would then blow it away at close range with 100% accuracy. It was a shooting gallery.
After waltzing through Normal (ended with just three deaths), Classic Ironman is kicking my ass. The worst part are the chain panics your squad gets at the drop of a hat. Had a squad where the only hit they sustained was one guy getting poisoned by a thin man. Next turn the guy takes the damage from poison, which causes him to panic, he shoots his buddy, which causes a third guy to panic and shoot another of my of my guys. From one hit of poison damage!
Does classic get easier once you get some momentum and equipment flowing in? Because early game classic is damn rough.
Does classic get easier once you get some momentum and equipment flowing in? Because early game classic is damn rough.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Noisepurge
Member
repost for these since people seem to be asking:
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PC Retro 1
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During my classic ironman game the difficulty level came and went like a wave. But maybe that was because it was my second game ever after having given up on the first (also a classic run). Once you've got a couple rank 4+ guys and everyone has plasma weapons and titan armor most encounters become pretty easy though.
Riposte
Member
I'm really fed up with replaying the first mission. It might be the thing I like the least right now. The game becomes boring and a little too random with four untrained, under-equipped soldiers. Moreover you don't want to go into an Ironman game disadvantaged. I love playing Ironman once the game gets going, but I'm about to drop it so I don't have to do this again. Normally a boring start wouldn't be a problem, but the circumstances dictate otherwise.
If I could change one thing about the game, it would be that you would start off with one each class (or at least something similar). Otherwise the game is pretty swell, well, at least once you get over the fact that it will inevitably fuck you over at some point and you'll just have to deal with it.
If I could change one thing about the game, it would be that you would start off with one each class (or at least something similar). Otherwise the game is pretty swell, well, at least once you get over the fact that it will inevitably fuck you over at some point and you'll just have to deal with it.
Doesn't everyone from the first mission level up to a different class? At least that's how it's always been for me...
Riposte
Member
Assuming they accumulate enough exp and don't die. It also helps if they don't get severely injured. I'm talking about the first mission itself though. Once that is over, I'm back to loving the game again.
But the mission is only like 10 minutes long tops...
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
There are a lot of things they could do to smooth the transition from early game to late game. Let me say first that I do agree with the general design that you start off on the ropes but grow into an alien-killing force. It worked in the original, and it works for other games too, like Diablo.
EDIT: It's important to note that one of the main problems with Diablo III was that they changed the balance to being way too back-loaded for most people to handle with Inferno difficulty (although I personally liked the pain).
However, that doesn't mean that the first few months have to be too hard, and the later months too easy. We can tune the game so that victory/defeat isn't decided in the second month, and so that there are some obstacles that really challenge the player in the later months.
In the original XCOM, the game was actually tuned pretty well throughout. The main reason for it being so easy at the end was because of the game breakingly abusable psionic powers. Just turning those off (like you can do in XCOMutil) still keeps the game relatively challenging even in the late game.
As far as the new XCOM is concerned, much of the late game easiness comes from the strategy layer. Once you beat the alien base, you pretty much don't have to worry about panic management at all anymore. This front-loads the entirety of the stressful and difficult portion of panic management in the first few months and therefore only those first months are relevant.
At the same time, you are trying to tech up as fast as possible, and are trying to manage very scarce resources as best as possible.
Once you reach mid to late game, the game gets considerably easier because panic doesn't matter anymore. Once you've gotten over the hump of the early game, resources flow more plentifully, and teching up isn't that hard anymore. There really isn't anything that is forcing you into hard decisions about resource management and allocation anymore.
Potential solutions:
Make the strategy layer more like the original game's.
In the original XCOM, you still had to deal with multiple UFOs and larger UFOs, and multiple alien bases in the late game. You had to actively protect against alien infiltrations and terror missions, and the threat of countries pulling out was still a factor, mid/late game. (relative to new XCOM)
The fact abductions and terror missions in the new XCOM happen arbitrarily take away some of this potential. That battleships don't really show up unless your ignore a scout UFO is kinda silly too.
In the original XCOM, you still had to deal with multiple UFOs and larger UFOs, and multiple alien bases in the late game. You had to actively protect against alien infiltrations and terror missions, and the threat of countries pulling out was still a factor, mid/late game. (relative to new XCOM)
The fact abductions and terror missions in the new XCOM happen arbitrarily take away some of this potential. That battleships don't really show up unless your ignore a scout UFO is kinda silly too.
- Specific changes -
Overall strategy layer:
A UFO spawns and makes its way to a target in order to initiate an abduction or a terror mission. If you shoot down the UFO, you stop the mission from taking place.
Satellites are placed by the user anywhere on the Earth, and have a fixed radius of detection, similar to radar bases in the original game.
Allow multiple interceptors on a single target again.
Allow multiple skyrangers, so you can handle multiple engagements at once.
Aliens have an overall 'gameplan' and play the strategy layer themselves as well. This 'gameplan' differs between playthroughs, increasing replayability by having the player adapt to different alien behavior each time.
Completing the alien base mission only lowers global panic by 1. Aliens can then set up more bases later in the game. Subsequent alien base missions only lower the panic of the country they were in.
Satellites are placed by the user anywhere on the Earth, and have a fixed radius of detection, similar to radar bases in the original game.
Allow multiple interceptors on a single target again.
Allow multiple skyrangers, so you can handle multiple engagements at once.
Aliens have an overall 'gameplan' and play the strategy layer themselves as well. This 'gameplan' differs between playthroughs, increasing replayability by having the player adapt to different alien behavior each time.
Completing the alien base mission only lowers global panic by 1. Aliens can then set up more bases later in the game. Subsequent alien base missions only lower the panic of the country they were in.
Early game:
Abduction UFOs spawn one or two at a time.
Mid game:
Abduction UFOs spawn three at a time.
Terror UFOs potentially spawn two at a time if the aliens are able to establish a second alien base.
At this point, it should still be hard to be able to shoot down everything unless you rushed interceptor tech.
Terror UFOs potentially spawn two at a time if the aliens are able to establish a second alien base.
At this point, it should still be hard to be able to shoot down everything unless you rushed interceptor tech.
Late game:
Abduction UFOs and terror UFOs are upgraded to large sizes, or even battleships.
New alien bombardment missions that have a battleship come to outright destroy a city. You have to shoot it down or else it'll destroy a nation's capital city and that nation withdraws.
Base defense. Maybe something like a custom, extra hard terror mission for the city that you are based in. If they destroy your city, then...welp.
Stealth upgrades for alien UFOs that make them a little harder to detect. Speed upgrades for alien UFOs that make them harder to catch. Of course, you are able to upgrade your interceptors, or build Firestorms to counter this.
Overall costs for late game tech are increased due to more abundant resources from all the UFOs you shoot down.
New alien bombardment missions that have a battleship come to outright destroy a city. You have to shoot it down or else it'll destroy a nation's capital city and that nation withdraws.
Base defense. Maybe something like a custom, extra hard terror mission for the city that you are based in. If they destroy your city, then...welp.
Stealth upgrades for alien UFOs that make them a little harder to detect. Speed upgrades for alien UFOs that make them harder to catch. Of course, you are able to upgrade your interceptors, or build Firestorms to counter this.
Overall costs for late game tech are increased due to more abundant resources from all the UFOs you shoot down.
The tactical layer feels pretty good overall. The main reason that the game is so damn hard in the beginning is because of the great potential to get one shot all the time.
Tactical changes:
Eliminate the HP penalty of XCOM soldiers on Classic and Impossible. Keep the alien buffs to aim and crit.
Bring back the ranked alien officers that the original XCOM had. Have low tier, high ranked aliens show up in the late game with more HP, better weapons, etc. (sectoid leaders, floater leaders, etc.) This is mostly to increase variety.
Increase the number of alien spawns in the late game.
Allow aliens to actively call for reinforcements when they want to, instead of waiting for a patrol to show up.
Vary alien behavior so that each UFO mission doesn't always end up with you storming the control room in the end.
Improve alien AI so that alien patrols can flank you.
Bring back the ranked alien officers that the original XCOM had. Have low tier, high ranked aliens show up in the late game with more HP, better weapons, etc. (sectoid leaders, floater leaders, etc.) This is mostly to increase variety.
Increase the number of alien spawns in the late game.
Allow aliens to actively call for reinforcements when they want to, instead of waiting for a patrol to show up.
Vary alien behavior so that each UFO mission doesn't always end up with you storming the control room in the end.
Improve alien AI so that alien patrols can flank you.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
re: battleships not showing up unless you ignore a scout - I think this is meant to parallel the way base invasions only occurred if you let your base get scouted out in the original.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Yeah, but it's too easy to shoot down all the scouts and never see the battleships. I felt the same way about the original, too. There should be another avenue available for battleships to appear and outright try to destroy you.
I love those propoesd changes, except I still feel the first story base should lower by 2 worldwide because that shit is invaluable.
How about this - leave a base active too long and after a warning sweep of scouts around XCOM location, BOOM. Battleships scouting around your area. Then - base invasion.
.
IIRC bases in the original indicated imminent funding withdrawal, right?
How about this - leave a base active too long and after a warning sweep of scouts around XCOM location, BOOM. Battleships scouting around your area. Then - base invasion.
So disappointed that never made it in
IIRC bases in the original indicated imminent funding withdrawal, right?
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Nope. It was infiltration ships that meant that your funding was already dead.
TemplaerDude
Member
Yeah, I'm so bummed base invasions didn't make it in. They could have been so awesome, just scrolling through time as usual and all of a sudden time slows back down, klaxons start blaring, red lights start flashing and the camera pans out and then zooms in on your squad, someone screaming over the radio "AW SHIT ALIENS BLAP BLAP".
Ohhhh well.
Ohhhh well.
How often do you replay the first mission and why do you replay it so often?
I don't agree with starting with one of each class thing but it would be nice if you started the game in your base and it would be nice if you had more variation in starting equipment.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
To get a good start on the game.
Ideally, you want to get through the first mission with no major injuries, and with each person getting at least one kill so that they have a class assigned to them.
Totally unnecessary unless you're playing on impossible... maybe. If that's the only reason, it seems a tad weak. So you're trying to game the game to try and get an early advantage but it feels tedious? While we're at it why not start RPGs at lvl 10 or whatever so I don't have to mindlessly grind mobs at the start of the game in order for me to one shot the first boss?
Riposte
Member
Often times I'll ditch a bad run. Why would I accept such poor starting position when Ironman Classic is unforgiving, especially in the beginning? It would be like continuing with a 1cc where you died in the first 25 seconds. Like the time where in a span of a single turn after discovering the aliens I had two squad members brought down to 1-2 health and panicked, which ended up with one of them nearly killing a third squad member. That was a rare comedic moment, but usually what I hate most is having to play like such a turtle because I lack the tools to deal with basic situations. It leads to a lot of hate for the 25-30% accuracy rating. The squadie weapons, abilities, and, to some extent, the stat increases feel very necessary for this game to be fun. Otherwise it becomes too much of a stalemate thanks to cover (with a slight edge against me, as I'm trying to get everyone out alive and well).
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Not really. It's just trying to get the best possible start you can do, since it's such a big factor in your future success. This is pretty much the hallmark of any min/max gamer, really.
Trying to achieve the best possible outcome.
That's different. Your initial start in most RPGs doesn't impact the rest of the game as much as XCOM does.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
You know, you don't even really need to do this, though. It's better to just hire new rookies ASAP anyway, so that they have more HP.
Riposte
Member
Is that a glitch or something?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I dunno, but it's better than keeping the original guys with gimped HP. You do take a monetary hit, though.
Played the game the last time a few days ago. I managed to get myself in a situation where half of my team were wounded and needed quite a few days of recovery and two of my team mates were in the psy lab to get checked if they have any powers and had 5 days left. Only 2 of my squad mates were actually ready to go into battle and when I tried to make a few days go by Argentina got invaded and got out of the program and the day after I got an abduction mission that was impossible with just 2 squad mates.
I think I can still salvage the situation when I get the 2 soldiers back from the psy labs but I really don't feel like tackling that situation after getting home from a long workday...
I think I can still salvage the situation when I get the 2 soldiers back from the psy labs but I really don't feel like tackling that situation after getting home from a long workday...
You're wrong. The start with your initial squad doesn't matter much at all. Have you ever thought you might just be bad at the game? Try to play on easy instead. So what if not all of them get promoted?
Do you re-roll a civ game if you don't start next to 2 gold sources, lots of food, a river and other different types of luxuries too?
What do you mean "not really?" That's exactly what I said and yes you do try to game the game if you feel the need to restart the game if you lose one or 2 soldiers or some of them don't get promoted from the first mission. While it is totally unnecessary to do so. The tedium comes solely from the way you're trying to play the game in that case. When min/maxing tedium comes with the game does it not?
Umm why were you arguing that the first mission is so important then?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
lol, whoa dude, calm down. No need to be so hostile. I think I'm pretty decent at the game, considering I'm ranked in the top 10 on the Steam leaderboards as of this past weekend.
All I'm pointing out is the phenomenon of min/maxing as a gamer. You see this in any game. Diablo, World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy Tactics, anything. OCD and gaming go hand in hand.
I mean "not really" because it's "not really" gaming the game. It's still playing the game within the designed parameters. There's no game genie BS going on here. Restarting XCOM games is one of the main features of the franchise. It doesn't really matter how often or early you do it.
min/maxers just like to play the game this way, despite the "tedium". One man's tedium is another man's dedication. This isn't a competitive game like WoW. Who cares. If someone plays Final Fantasy Tactics and wants to surround the last enemy and hit and heal it all day long to grind EXP, then what does it matter?
You asked why someone would want to restart so much. I explained to you the reason why.
Sanctuary
Member
Played this game for probably 46 hours total before running off to play the much hyped Dishonored. Ten hours into that game and I'm ready for more XCOM.
Also, there's almost no reason at all to restart if you don't get your perfect setup after the very first mission, min/maxer or not. In fact, a true min/maxer already knows that all of his initial squad is throwaway and that the only units that matter are those that come in after you research Iron Will.
Also, there's almost no reason at all to restart if you don't get your perfect setup after the very first mission, min/maxer or not. In fact, a true min/maxer already knows that all of his initial squad is throwaway and that the only units that matter are those that come in after you research Iron Will.
Basileus777
Member
It might be because new recruits are getting easy mode HP, but they should leave like it is. Playing impossible with 3 hp soldiers is just....
Cool off a little. Why do you ask a question from someone and then get hostile when they provide you with an answer?
Yes but first you say it's crucial and then in reply to the other guy you say it's not crucial. umm ok?
Yes it is gaming the game. Because you're not dealing with a situation you created by your own actions instead you replay the game until everything goes perfectly. That's gaming the game when the game is all about dealing with and recovering from bad situations. "Game genie BS" is cheating which is different from "gaming the game". Gaming the game is as it says you're playing a game with the game itself. The game goes "hey you had this guy positioned poorly and now he's dead" and the player goes "aha! well played game! But what do you think about this!? RESTART MOTHA FUCKA!"
And if you keep restarting the game because you want to play it perfectly of course the start gets tedious but this is clearly not a problem with the game itself. Seems pretty easy to understand to me.
Also as you clearly stated yourself it isn't necessary to throw away a seemingly bad start, so why are you arguing really?
Also wut? If you hate turtling so much why not play on easy? Why play on classic + ironman (I'm assuming since you're restarting the game instead of loading a save) when you can't deal with the consequences. Why not just play classic without ironman or normal / easy?
Not sure what your goal is here but you can come back from a bad run and if you absolutely want to play it perfectly, go without ironman and or stop crying because you're creating the tedium yourself by not tolerating small relatively small mishaps and favor restarting.
TemplaerDude
Member
Dude, you have clearly never met a Min / Max gamer, I really think you should just uh... let people the game however the fuck they want.
Fragamemnon
Member
Ironman Classic, no casualties yet, no countries lost, and am in May and am just messing around waiting for Mutons to show up so I can jack their plasma guns while teching my way to a month four Titan Armor.
The frontloading of Impossible is so miserable-I play Civ 5 on Deity, Galciv 2 on Masochist, etc. and Impossible is literally one of the most frustrating and frontloaded strategy game difficulties I have ever run into.
The frontloading of Impossible is so miserable-I play Civ 5 on Deity, Galciv 2 on Masochist, etc. and Impossible is literally one of the most frustrating and frontloaded strategy game difficulties I have ever run into.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I didn't say it's "crucial". I said it's what you can do to get the best start in the game.
Some people would consider hiring new recruits to be an exploit and choose to not do it.
Play the game until October, run into a bad situation. Restart instead of continuing on a futile path.
Play the game until June, run into a bad situation. Restart instead of continuing on a futile path.
Play the game until April, run into a bad situation. Restart instead of continuing on a futile path.
Play the game until March 1st, run into a bad situation. Restart instead of continuing on a futile path.
At what point specifically does this turn from "normal play" into "gaming the game"?
Besides, it's not like a perfect first mission isn't going to guarantee success for the rest of the game. It just gives you a good start. There will be many chances to test your ability to come back from a bad situation during the rest of the 95% of the game.
I'm not arguing, I'm answering your question about the motives behind why someone would want to do this. There are many ways to play the game. This is one of them.
You can hate stuff, but still enjoy the overall experience that it brings.
This.
This definitely happened to me (on Normal). I 'heard' them moving around me every round until suddenly my squadsight sniper who is always in the back was attacked from behind and barely survived.
I guess it should be more frequent though, maybe would be if maps were a touch bigger.
Interesting points though, I'd agree with a lot even if I'm yet to try anything harder than normal. There's definitely a point where the strategy layer becomes very easy, that's the main issue imo.