Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I'm a total ignorant newb regarding this series, but I'm going to rent this solely because of your FAQ section. Nice work.
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XCOM: Enemy Unknown |OT| Neo GAF is Under Alien Control
- Thread starter Jintor
- Start date
I just honestly don't understand what people have against cover. In pure game mechanics turn it's direction-orientated defence boosting, which allows for strategic worth of locations but only in certain directions, which means a great emphasis on moving to positions that allow for greater offence but hopefully from behind cover. It's fantastic for keeping battles active and engaged, especially when combined with overwatch, suppressing fire, grenades etc.
And it's not like it's 100% protection even.
And it's not like it's 100% protection even.
Yeah I don't worry too much about these games being better than the originals. I know in most cases it's physically impossible for it to happen in today's toxic game industry and desperate race to grab the most casuals that simply did not exist 10+ years ago. As long as it's not something so bad and shameful like the new Syndicate, and the game sticks to its roots for the most part then I'll probably enjoy it.
Thank god they made that optional it would have been game ruining. A single button press that shows you where everything and everyone is without taking you out of the action as a penalty is an all time horrendous idea. At least with the old map system you had to memorize the layout and account for people moving around unless you wanted to stop and look at the map every other step.
The argument about cover was dumb though. The person is complaining about something that was actually in the old game. It made no sense!
Neuromancer
Member
You don't think it's smart game design to have a trained soldier automatically duck behind a wall he's already standing near when under enemy fire? OK.
They're both turn based strategy games, I don't really see how one happening to be on a portable system changes a whole lot. Missions in Shadow Wars can last as long as missions in X-Com (the original, I haven't played this one) did. Also not sure what you mean by 'predictable' combat.
Haha
So, I just played the demo and while I liked what I saw, I'm a bit underwhelmed. Does it get more complex? Is there a bit a depth later on? I mean, from what I saw, even the upgrades are just stats boosts.
Maybe the demo is just giving me the wrong impression. :|
I'll wait for some reviews before buying.
Maybe the demo is just giving me the wrong impression. :|
I'll wait for some reviews before buying.
Where you say dumbed down I say streamlined.
Yeah, it's a scripted tutorial mission and it's also locked to easy.
And the metagame is a pretty large part of XCOM, so without like a few hours to really get into it you've only got about half the game in your hands...
whalleywhat
Member
You're not helping.
Stronghammer22
Member
Mind merge and yeah, that's what is meant to happen. It's a powerful ability in MP but dangerous, as you can lose two units in one strike.
As an aside, people should check out Jagged Alliance 2 if they're getting into the TBS genre. It is my favourite game of all time, the characters are memorable, gameplay enjoyable etc. Stay away from the remake though, it missed the mark imo.
The 3 moves ahead podcast explains well the problem.
The new system makes the "under cover" position the only tactical valid position. With the terrain subdivided in a "binary" way, between valid tactical spaces (under cover) and invalid tactical spaces (in the open).
The original system allows both positions (under cover and in the open) to be tactically valid.
So the original system is more organic, offering more option to the player and not needing the map design to be tailored around it (which makes the map design contrived), since wide open spaces are still viable . So in conclusion, the original is a better system. NOT perfect buy undoubtedly better.
If I examine like this all the other major systems, the result is the same.
A combat where the results are predictable, like Advance Wars (or Shadow Wars itself).
X-COM classic system's results are very unpredictable, and they needs to be to build the tension.
They're very different designs, the challenge is not the same so it isn't the way you play them.
Can we quit acting like there isn't anything that couldn't be improved upon in the original XCOM?
I appreciate the concerns over consolitis, but bitching about a cover system which is essentially the same as the first one, but with more information readily available is just silly.
I appreciate the concerns over consolitis, but bitching about a cover system which is essentially the same as the first one, but with more information readily available is just silly.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
Have you played Enemy Unknown?
MrCompletely
Member
I think you've missed the point of that discussion. The point is that the old games tactics system doesn't make the distinction among being in cover or out in the open, whereas the new game does. You can place a soldier out in the open, but there's a higher risk/reward factor for doing so and there are soldier abilities that can mitigate the risk of being in the open, such as run and gun - or even dashing (which gives you defensive bonus on reaction fire). The original is just pieces on a game board, your soldier behaves the same no matter if there's geometry next to him or 6 tiles away. The new one takes into account geometry next to you and applies defensive/offensive stat changes, which puts a greater emphasis on using the map and hence MORE tactical.
I don't get the complaining either. Just seems like bitching about something different just because it's different, or nonsensical backlash because of all the third person cover shooters that are so popular lately. I bet the original would've allowed you to shoot from cover too if not for technical limitations.
Actually long before this was announced I was hoping that a current-gen reimagining of X-COM would have some kind of cover system similar to what we got. It was one of the very first things I looked for when this game was revealed. I wish I could find the posts I made 'cause I'd look like freaking nostradamus, but not every forum I use archives stuff as nicely as neogaf. So uh, take my word for it. Although really, having played some of Relic's RTS games and seeing how their cover systems work it's kind of a no brainer that they'd go this route.
Having to move your soldiers step by step out from behind a wall, take a shot, then move them back in wouldn't even work without AP anyways, although personally I think that cover would have worked well with AP too. Instead of automatically doing it just spend AP like you would to crouch, which would have your soldier take a position in cover.
I think they could take it even further in a sequel...allowing blindfire would be interesting, maybe even have psionic soldiers be able to shoot at things without coming out of cover to look at them. Damn that would be cool.
It's like I listened to another podcast.
They say stuff like "the open spaces are irrelevant" or "here if you force the soldier into an open field they'll get destroyed". The lead designer also says that the open space is a "dead area where the AI doesn't go there".
GrandHarrier
Member
What was "viable" about being in the open in the first game? You were just a giant target. The best you could do is "crouch" for some measure of defense. There was nothing tactical about open spaces in the first game besides running in a straight line from point A to point B. How is that different? Instead of putting my guys on the wall by the side of a building, I have actual hardpoints I can hunker down too???
More Fun To Compute
Member
Bah. Back in my day we played Laser Squad:
And we liked it.
Back in my day we had to control 20 rebelstar raiders all the way to the top of the hill first thing in the morning in the freezing cold.
Are you suggesting that an enemy AI that doesn't stick it's own guys in the open is a bad thing? Do you like stupidly easy games or something?
Partial Gamification
Banned
I am so excited for this game to be released!!!
MrCompletely
Member
again, you're completely missing the point. the whole point is that the games makes the distinction among open spaces and cover, and the AI is smart enough to acknowledge that. I don't get why you think cover that has tangible effects and smart AI is a bad thing. This is a DIFFERENT tactical model with a different set of rules and balances - get over it. IF you just want the original, there it is - GO PLAY IT.
throwawayname
Member
Great OT.
Yes it is different, and I explained why the mandatory cover mechanic, among the other things, is worse than what the original did. There's no need to get angry.
MrCompletely
Member
alright, im done feeding the troll.
Minsc
Gold Member
Is chess a better game on a 8x8 grid or a 800x800 grid?
It's not like there's 3 spots you can find cover and that's it. Going by the demo, there is cover everywhere. It does not seem like the number of possible choices you can come up with are reduced to numbers where tactics are no longer important.
Excellent.
I remember on a playthrough of UFO all my characters where basically Jean Dumeumeu STR/REA/ACC and shit so that I could remember their stats in the equipping screen. So lame.
I thought I was being clever though.
Amen.
Neuromancer
Member
It doesn't sound mandatory to me and it doesn't sound worse. But you're welcome to your (bad) opinion.
Fragamemnon
Member
This thread is Civ 4 vs. Civ 5 all over again and the game isn't even out yet. -_-
Sacred cows make the best steaks. You can't modernize a franchise that is 20-years mothballed without huge changes that a vocal minority of the fan base will hate you for. Heck, look at Diablo III for a good example of a petulant response from a narrow portion of its fanbase, and that was only one decade removed.
By valid, you mean "eating plasma to the face", right? The only ones that were ever out in the open past the first few hours of play were either on the "Last Alien Stuck On a Pathing Loop Hunt" (which sucked) or the rookies you were using for cannon fodder since you had infinite disposable cannon fodder to act as spotters for your trained snipers. Your "complaint" is actually a XCOM case of a fallacy of false choice, anyone of value was always behind (usually multiple) paths of cover.
Sacred cows make the best steaks. You can't modernize a franchise that is 20-years mothballed without huge changes that a vocal minority of the fan base will hate you for. Heck, look at Diablo III for a good example of a petulant response from a narrow portion of its fanbase, and that was only one decade removed.
By valid, you mean "eating plasma to the face", right? The only ones that were ever out in the open past the first few hours of play were either on the "Last Alien Stuck On a Pathing Loop Hunt" (which sucked) or the rookies you were using for cannon fodder since you had infinite disposable cannon fodder to act as spotters for your trained snipers. Your "complaint" is actually a XCOM case of a fallacy of false choice, anyone of value was always behind (usually multiple) paths of cover.
Dance Inferno
Unconfirmed Member
Haha great OT! Love the writing style.
I would have totally pre-ordered this game if I wasn't getting RE6; I loved the heck out of the original XCOM back in the day. Will probably pick this up over Black Friday for some fun alien-smoking action!
I would have totally pre-ordered this game if I wasn't getting RE6; I loved the heck out of the original XCOM back in the day. Will probably pick this up over Black Friday for some fun alien-smoking action!
Neuromancer
Member
Did they say there'd be one? I don't remember.
I don't think I'd even play it to be honest, I'm ready to go in fresh.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
I know what you mean. I downloaded the demo on PC but as soon as I saw the base after the training mission I thought, "yep, I'm sold" and I quit out of it.
A lot of maps contained open spaces, so you were in the open every time you needed to traverse them, because usually you couldn't do it in one turn. It was more dangerous of course, but the system didn't have the need to have all those open spaces filled with cover-granting objects as the new one does.
whalleywhat
Member
Neuromancer
Member
I find it hard to believe that there are no maps with open spaces in this game, and that you'll never have to make the tactical choice to leave cover.
Doesn't the fact that pretty much all cover is destructible factor in as well? When I cranked the demo up to classic using the demo editor, I had a heck of a time staying in any kind of cover because it was constantly being destroyed by one alien, then my soldier would get killed by the next.
Fragamemnon
Member
Diablo 3 is merely one illustration out of many -my point was one more of 'when you change popular old games in any way, no matter what there is a chunk of the community fanbase that is completely orthodox to the previous way of doing things'.
Again, this was addressed past the early game with rookie cannon fodder and to a lesser extent HWPs. They did all the nasty scouting and your snipers were behind trees and bushes the whole way. You also make XCOM:UFO Defense maps seem larger than they actually were, which wasn't the case, and the big "open" maps always had sufficient hills, buildings, or fences/shrubs/orchards for cover.
Again, this was addressed past the early game with rookie cannon fodder and to a lesser extent HWPs. They did all the nasty scouting and your snipers were behind trees and bushes the whole way. You also make XCOM:UFO Defense maps seem larger than they actually were, which wasn't the case, and the big "open" maps always had sufficient hills, buildings, or fences/shrubs/orchards for cover.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
The original XCOM didn't have destructible cover, therefore it was superior.
Heh, even in that OXM playthrough on youtube something like this happened. He had a sniper caught out of cover because it had been destroyed by a plasma shot, he had to choose whether to shoot an alien or move back into cover. He chose the former - got the alien, but lost his soldier as well. Whether he would have lost him anyways by leaving that alien alive is the question, but it was a choice he had to make.
Should've used a specific example, like someone who complained about...I dunno, the removal of light radius as a stat in favor of things like gold pickup range.
I think folks expecting a game nearly 100% close to the original from a major publisher in this development climate are chasing a pipe-dream.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
The dev team dropped the ball with Diablo III, though, now that I've played it inside and out. XCOM appears to be more faithful to the original concepts which gave the first game such appeal, while simultaneously making it accessible to a modern audience.
Diablo III sacrificed too much of what made the franchise good in the first place on the altar of accessibility. Fortunately, those two concepts are not mutually exclusive, as XCOM will probably (I hope) show us.
Bwahahahaha
Oh but it did.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
It did have destructible cover.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
last i heard there would be one around launch. i'm already sold on the game, i just want to get an early taste.
Even if all the levels were more "corridor" based, which they clearly arent - as someone who actually has the game has confirmed as opposed to the speculation by this threads amateur psychics - that in no way inherently affects how tense the game would be.
Technosteve
Banned
how hard will this game be, and also from watching old playthroughs of the original. Will i be sending waves and waves of rookies at the aliens while my veterans sit in the plane until everything is cleared.
There are several difficulties, Classic will probably be about as hard as the original, if the previews are to be believed. Normal is slightly easier, some might say "fair". Easy is fairly easy. And finally Impossible which is relentless and cruel.
And, of course, the option of running the game Ironman style. One save file, autosave on.
You won't have anyone sitting in the Skyranger in this game, though. Everyone gets off before the mission starts.
Fragamemnon
Member
There are mulitple difficulties and an "ironman" game state modifier where the game manages one save file (no takebacks if a mission goes bad). I believe there are four or five total difficulty choices total (Normal, Classic (think very hard), and Impossible being the confirmed ones).
And squad sizes are smaller now so the stuff you could do with the rookies in the original will absolutely not work. You need all your people out there to minimize causalities and ensure the mission success.