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[User 100115]

I don't think that is what people mean when they talk about girls shouldn't get in bad situations. It's not blaming the victim. The person to blame is the animal who rapes anyone. They are to blame. I think when my daughter is born and gets older I'm going to tell her to be careful and not get in situations that are not safe. That would include going into some guys dorm room by herself, never accept a drink at a bar from someone other than the bartender or waitress/waiter. Things like that. People don't want anyone raped. At least that's my feeling from these posts.

The problem is that going down that route means basically that women should never go anywhere with anyone. People get raped in many different situations, and yes, women constantly take precautions against it. (See the 'covering the drink' thread). But saying that women should stop hanging out with football players if they don't want to get raped, or should respect themselves more if they don't want to get raped is blaming the victim. The person I quoted said that the football playing type couldn't control themselves.

 

[Fantasmo]

I don't think that is what people mean when they talk about girls shouldn't get in bad situations. It's not blaming the victim. The person to blame is the animal who rapes anyone. They are to blame. I think when my daughter is born and gets older I'm going to tell her to be careful and not get in situations that are not safe. That would include going into some guys dorm room by herself, never accept a drink at a bar from someone other than the bartender or waitress/waiter. Things like that. People don't want anyone raped. At least that's my feeling from these posts.

I agree. I think back on my own life and nobody ever taught me about people who pretend they're your friend, but they're really not. The world is FULL of them and my parents never once taught me about them. Took tons of therapy which brought about intense prolonged inner rage. If I had a choice between someone like Measley telling it straight, and the way I lived, I'd take straight talk every time. That's not victim blaming, it's called being aware and smart. My whole life would have played out different, and that's no lie. Big difference between what he's saying and what these towns are doing to the girls. They're not even in the same ball park.

The problem is that going down that route means basically that women should never go anywhere with anyone. People get raped in many different situations, and yes, women constantly take precautions against it. (See the 'covering the drink' thread). But saying that women should stop hanging out with football players if they don't want to get raped, or should respect themselves more if they don't want to get raped is blaming the victim. The person I quoted said that the football playing type couldn't control themselves.

That's not at all true. My parents fucked up by not telling me about fake people and people with alternative intentions, so I'm not going to let that happen when I have kids. Let's say I have a daughter. I'm going to teach her about shame and embarassment and liars and cads and fake friends and how to protect herself and her reputation. I see too many reports about this and in my own life experience, people take what they can get away with, so you protect yourself and only put yourself in positions that you can handle. I've seen women go that same route. If I do get a daughter, she's going to be armed with the knowledge to make the best possible decisions. If she doesn't make them, so be it, we all fuck up and sometimes collosally, but at least she'll be aware of it, and be able to make the decisions.

Let me say this loud and clear, you can't POSSIBLY know who a person is and what they're capable of, so victim blaming is not a part of it. People have to earn trust before they can do anything.

Let me take this another step further, after having been through my own therapy, I was in quite a random position of running into female friends from my own past who had.. and continued to run into personal and social issues. And they fought me tooth and nail on a few things that I won't divulge in full, but let's just say the friends they thought they had weren't friends. And it hit them hard like it did to me. Had all of us been armed with this knowledge of shady shitty people, perhaps the situations would never have occurred. I wish someone said to me "get these people out of your life, now". It's called being aware and ALL of our lives (except the fake friends' lives) would have been better off if each of our parents hadn't done a such a shit job of teaching us this stuff.

Also, covering your drink before you know me, is cool with me.

 

[Stasis]

Why are so many of you obsessing over the details of this particular article? They used the world beautiful, which may or may not mean what many of you are implying. They referenced her religion, and political views, etc. Yep. It's all irrelevant to the actual story and you know it.

The point of the OP was what happened to an innocent girl, actions that are going unpunished. Actions that will surely be repeated often, many times without anyone ever knowing about it. That should unite us no matter what wording was used, or what the author's possible agenda was. These things transcend race and status differences. Come on. We should be just as appalled by this as what happened in India. And both deserve attention and justice.

 

[Gannd]

Beautiful = white.

Yes. It's racism!

 

[CommonSense]

Oops..I'm mad. See below.

 

[CommonSense]

Sad story, but girls should really stay the fuck away from football players and most athletes in general. We're jerks by nature, and I can only imagine what its like being at a football college where you're a superstar. In high school, my teammates did some pretty shitty things to women, but they kept coming around like they couldn't help themselves.

WTF are you even trying to say, son? I played football at a higher level than you could even sniff with bigger assholes than you've ever seen and I never and I mean never saw what happened in the OP. Never say "we"...say "me." Please don't ever call out a whole group of people like you're some kind of expert..jesus.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

Goddamn Football is like another religion down there.

 

[Lesath]

Why are so many of you obsessing over the details of this particular article? They used the world beautiful, which may or may not mean what many of you are implying. They referenced her religion, and political views, etc. Yep. It's all irrelevant to the actual story and you know it.

The point of the OP was what happened to an innocent girl, actions that are going unpunished. Actions that will surely be repeated often, many times without anyone ever knowing about it. That should unite us no matter what wording was used, or what the author's possible agenda was. These things transcend race and status differences. Come on. We should be just as appalled by this as what happened in India. And both deserve attention and justice.

First of all, only the OP used the word "beautiful", and as I've stated before, it is a subjective descriptor that offers no useful information, and comes across as in poor taste because it seems to shallowly overdramatize the tragedy at hand.

 

[Kettch]

The fuck? I'm generally not fond of putting accused rapists' names in the public until conviction, but how the hell do we know who she is and not him? Was she anonymous before the suicide at least?

 

[Dude Abides]

I don't think that is what people mean when they talk about girls shouldn't get in bad situations. It's not blaming the victim. The person to blame is the animal who rapes anyone. They are to blame. I think when my daughter is born and gets older I'm going to tell her to be careful and not get in situations that are not safe. That would include going into some guys dorm room by herself, never accept a drink at a bar from someone other than the bartender or waitress/waiter. Things like that. People don't want anyone raped. At least that's my feeling from these posts.

I think the difference arises between warning someone preemptively, when the advice might actually be useful, as opposed to emphasizing it after the fact.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Goddamn Football is like another religion down there.

Not just football,celebrities of all types never really seem to have to pay for what they do.

 

[bjb]

You know, I already commented on it saying it was a personal observation. She was a pretty girl. There wasn't any ulterior motive.

Unfortunately, however, it seems to have detracted from the story (tragedy). If a mod wants to change it, by all means. I can't help certain posters being offended by such an innocuous phrase.

Beautiful = white.

Wow. I also can't help absolute idiots trying to interject race into this now. Unbelievable.

 

[CommonSense]

First of all, only the OP used the word "beautiful", and as I've stated before, it is a subjective descriptor that offers no useful information, and comes across as in poor taste because it seems to shallowly overdramatize the tragedy at hand.

She is beautiful...why don't you focus on the bigger issue at hand, champ?

 

[Kinyou]

Beautiful = white.

Seriously?

Some people on gaf are just ridicoulus

 

[Nemesis121]

What's with all the glorification of football players? It's just a fucking sport.

Lets not forget this isn't confined to just sports it happens every where, anyone with money and social status or money and connections to high ranking officials in the law enforcement can make any thing Vanish....

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Worthless posts with zero content do little to guide or educate me. Try again.

I can't fix other people's stupid. Take some initiative son. It'll get you further in life and maybe you'll grow in character a little.

 

[Lesath]

She is beautiful...why don't you focus on the bigger issue at hand, champ?

Someone made a specific post asking why some of us take issue with the word "beautiful". I made a specific reply. If this criticism is not worth discussion or entirely off-topic, a mod will get involved. Until then, please either make an actual rebuttal or ignore my posts.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Wow. I also can't help absolute idiots trying to interject race into this now. Unbelievable.

Yes. It's racism!

Seriously?

Some people on gaf are just ridicoulus

What's ridiculous about it? Dude asked a question and I answered it.

 

[Vermillion]

WTF are you even trying to say, son? I played football at a higher level than you could even sniff with bigger assholes than you've ever seen and I never and I mean never saw what happened in the OP. Never say "we"...say "me." Please don't ever call out a whole group of people like you're some kind of expert..jesus.

I'd say that the danger is in the generalizations, not the warnings, exactly. If you have perfect knowledge of someone's less than admirable history, it's fine to warn people about monsters like that - that's why we have the sex offenders registry. Even if they don't listen, it's not them we should blame, rather the rapists.

 

[CommonSense]

Someone made a specific post asking why some of us take issue with the word "beautiful". I made a specific reply. If this criticism is not worth discussion or entirely off-topic, a mod will get involved. Until then, please either make an actual rebuttal or ignore my posts.

My rebuttal is tackle whatever inner demons you have and understand that "beautiful" was added more as respect for her passing on than a classification...Make sense?

 

[GeMiNii]

I don't understand how:

"The school’s “proof” that Lizzy lied is that she said the player stopped attacking her after receiving a call or a text. Phone records contradict that, showing that it was the player who called a friend rather than the other way around. Case closed, right? Sure, if you don’t think someone in the middle of both a physical and an anxiety attack could possibly be mistaken about whether her assailant stopped to make a call, or take one."

Can be considered proof innocence when they did nothing to the team member who threatened a girl who killed herself through texts. I mean if they're going by phone records surely that's proof that he threatened another student, yet he didn't even miss a game for it?

There's a huge difference between being interrupted during a violent crime by a phone call and stopping in the middle of a violent crime to make a phone call. One is plausible and has been used in movie comedies since the advent of cell phones/pagers, the other is just flat out bizarre thing to do.

Not to mention no rape kit, bruising, etc.

 

[bjb]

What's ridiculous about it? Dude asked a question and I answered it.

Correction: Said poster directed a question towards me to which I've answered (now twice).

You (DeaconKnowledge), on the other hand, made some dumb ass statement. Attempting to derail the thread and unnecessarily bring up race. All the while making yourself look like a god damn moron.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I can't fix other people's stupid. Take some initiative son. It'll get you further in life and maybe you'll grow in character a little.

Right, don't even try to post constructively, just continue with the useless condescension.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Correction: Said poster directed a question towards me to which I've answered (now twice).

You (DeaconKnowledge), on the other hand, made some dumb ass statement. Attempting to derail the thread and unnecessarily bring up race. All the while making yourself look like a god damn moron.

You already derailed the thread by interjecting a useless assessment of her looks.

Also. I was less making a comment about you, and more the leaning of these stories in general. Whenever something happens to a white woman her beauty is always brought up, regardless of its actual relevance to the case.

Regardless, i've said my piece. I'm out.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

What does it matter if she's beautiful? Just curious.

see im not only with this goin in this thread...

 

[bjb]

Whenever something happens to a white woman her beauty is always brought up, regardless of its actual relevance to the case.

The fuck?

Regardless, i've said my piece.

Thankfully, because it's continuously irrelevant and moronic.

 

[Mumei]

Um.

Can we all calm down a bit? Thanks.

Athletes are, to put it delicately, a higher-risk group for sexual assault offenses. For instance, John Crosset's 1995 study found that while male athletes comprised 3.7 percent of the student population, they represented 19 percent of sexual assaults reported to the Judicial Affairs Office. What's more, while football and basketball players represented 30 percent of the student-athlete population, they were responsible for 67 percent of the reported sexual assaults.

Obviously the solution is not "end sports" or "stick athletes in cages", but there is a problem nonetheless. I think that the problem is multifaceted; there are issues of sexual entitlement that are exacerbated by recruiting practices (e.g. the use of hostesses giving the impression that sex is being sold, something that (ironically enough) then asisstant athletic director at Notre Dame, Mike Karowski, said) , a culture of protection, and issues of ignorance about consent that face most young men but the pitfalls are perhaps more likely to come up with athletes.

So dealing with issues of sexual entitlement and having coaches and campus administration take sexual assault seriously rather than engaging in protection of offenders, and attempts at better education would probably go a long way towards improving things. I know this last one has happened in some places - for instance, Stanford, Penn State, Miami, Ohio State, etc. have all instituted mandatory sexual assault prevention programs for their players.

 

[CommonSense]

Um.

Can we all calm down a bit? Thanks.

Athletes are, to put it delicately, a higher-risk group for sexual assault offenses. For instance, John Crosset's 1995 study found that while male athletes comprised 3.7 percent of the student population, they represented 19 percent of sexual assaults reported to the Judicial Affairs Office. What's more, while football and basketball players represented 30 percent of the student-athlete population, they were responsible for 67 percent of the reported sexual assaults.

Obviously the solution is not "end sports" or "stick athletes in cages", but there is a problem nonetheless. I think that the problem is multifaceted; there are issues of sexual entitlement that are exacerbated by recruiting practices (e.g. the use of hostesses giving the impression that sex is being sold, something that (ironically enough) then asisstant athletic director at Notre Dame, Mike Karowski said) , a culture of protection, and issues of ignorance about consent that face most young men but the pitfalls are perhaps more likely to come up with athletes.

So dealing with issues of sexual entitlement and having coaches and campus administration take sexual assault seriously rather than engaging in protection of offenders, and attempts at better education would probably go a long way towards improving things. I know this last one has happened in some places - for instance, Stanford, Penn State, Miami, Ohio State, etc. have all instituted mandatory sexual assault prevention programs for their players.

I played at Michigan....Kinda big. Gary use to.make use run laps if he caught us cuss in front of or not open the door for a lady. Again,don't say anybody should assume we are dangerous. That's a terrible assumption.

 

[JABEE]

Um.

Can we all calm down a bit? Thanks.

Athletes are, to put it delicately, a higher-risk group for sexual assault offenses. For instance, John Crosset's 1995 study found that while male athletes comprised 3.7 percent of the student population, they represented 19 percent of sexual assaults reported to the Judicial Affairs Office. What's more, while football and basketball players represented 30 percent of the student-athlete population, they were responsible for 67 percent of the reported sexual assaults.

Obviously the solution is not "end sports" or "stick athletes in cages", but there is a problem nonetheless. I think that the problem is multifaceted; there are issues of sexual entitlement that are exacerbated by recruiting practices (e.g. the use of hostesses giving the impression that sex is being sold, something that (ironically enough) then asisstant athletic director at Notre Dame, Mike Karowski said) , a culture of protection, and issues of ignorance about consent that face most young men but the pitfalls are perhaps more likely to come up with athletes.

So dealing with issues of sexual entitlement and having coaches and campus administration take sexual assault seriously rather than engaging in protection of offenders, and attempts at better education would probably go a long way towards improving things. I know this last one has happened in some places - for instance, Stanford, Penn State, Miami, Ohio State, etc. have all instituted mandatory sexual assault prevention programs for their players.

Isn't that the case for a lot of celebrities in general? Are these numbers similar for younger politicians, actors, and musicians? What about if you just remove age and look at famous people in general?

 

[Karakand]

Brian Kelly's program has quite a bodycount.

He'll never have to take responsibility for it (or be made to), either.

 

[Mumei]

I played at Michigan....Kinda big. Again don't say anybody should assume we are dangerous. That's a terrible assumption.

Michigan also has one of those programs! I forgot to mention them.

And yes, you obviously you can't make generalizations about individuals with statistics about a population.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Isn't that the case for a lot of celebrities in general?

It might be an issue of how these celebrities are 'groomed,' per se. There are plenty of celebs who aren't raised in an environment that produces aggressive, competitive personalities surrounded by the promise of material riches and unlimited sexual gratification.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

There's a huge difference between being interrupted during a violent crime by a phone call and stopping in the middle of a violent crime to make a phone call. One is plausible and has been used in movie comedies since the advent of cell phones/pagers, the other is just flat out bizarre thing to do.

Not to mention no rape kit, bruising, etc.

My point wasn't the plausibility of the situation, the article goes on to talk about an interview with somebody from San Diego police department’s special victims unit who explains errors like these are likely in actual testimonies. My point was it seems pretty odd the case is thrown out due to inconclusive phone evidence when the footballer who literally sent threatening texts to the girl received no kind of punishment.

 

[chaostrophy]

Does this kind of thing happen with soccer/football players (or athletes in general) in the rest of the world or is it mostly an American thing? Just curious.

 

[mre]

If we're going to remove "Beautiful" from the title, shouldn't you also remove "young"? Is the rape of an older woman any less horrific than the rape of a young woman? Changing the thread title was completely unnecessary unless you're going to go the whole way.

 

[legacyzero]

If we're going to remove "Beautiful" from the title, shouldn't you also remove "young"? Is the rape of an older woman any less horrific than the rape of a young woman? Changing the thread title was completely unnecessary unless you're going to go the whole way.

OMG let it go already. O______O

It's just a thread title... It was harmless either way.

Edit:Oh.

 

[mre]

OMG let it go already. O______O

It's just a thread title... It was harmless either way.

I agree that it was harmless, which is why I think it was senseless to change it.

 

[legacyzero]

I agree that it was harmless, which is why I think it was senseless to change it.

Oh...

...I see

 

[painey]

just came in after thread title change, apparently. Thread title says young girl.. so I assumed 7 year old. 19 is not a young girl, its a young woman.

 

[Kangi]

If we're going to remove "Beautiful" from the title, shouldn't you also remove "young"? Is the rape of an older woman any less horrific than the rape of a young woman? Changing the thread title was completely unnecessary unless you're going to go the whole way.

Meh. "Young" is at least an objective description of the girl. "Beautiful" was unnecessary (and subjective) and just seemed to be there to grab more sympathy. Nobody's going to think this is implying anything about older women.

 

[mre]

Meh. "Young" is at least an objective description of the girl. "Beautiful" was unnecessary and just seemed to be there to grab more sympathy. Nobody's going to think this is implying anything about older women.

Actually, you can tell by painey's post that "young" is a subjective description of the girl. I don't see how you can argue that beautiful was anymore of a sympathy grab than young. Change it all or, preferably, change it back.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Goddamn Football is like another religion down there.

This happens everywhere. It may be American football, football or cricket depending on where you are. People do anything to protect an institution they like (BBC, Penn State, Catholic Church etc.).

 

[antonz]

Does this kind of thing happen with soccer/football players (or athletes in general) in the rest of the world or is it mostly an American thing? Just curious.

Its a pretty big issue globally. A lot of these athletes etc. are brought into organizations that throw women etc. at them as recruitment tools.

When a group of people are put on a pedestal its almost guaranteed that they will change. Hollywood is a hive of scum and villainy that ranges from sexual assaults, pedophilia etc. and they are all generally well protected even when people know the sick fucks because its all a special subgroup of society.

 

[Dude Abides]

Actually, you can tell by painey's post that "young" is a subjective description of the girl. I don't see how you can argue that beautiful was anymore of a sympathy grab than young. Change it all or, preferably, change it back.

Beautiful was clearly causing a derail to an extent young probably would not.

 

[Mumei]

mre: Drop it. Thanks.

 

[Kangi]

Actually, you can tell by painey's post that "young" is a subjective description of the girl. I don't see how you can argue that beautiful was anymore of a sympathy grab than young. Change it all or, preferably, change it back.

Good God.

"Beautiful" was removed because people were upset by it for giving a bad implication (an implication that unfortunately is true to some extent for some people). Nobody has gotten or is going to get upset by the "young" description. Making a hypothetical argument like that is just serving to derail things more so could we please drop all this hubbub over the title?

Edit: Mumei ninja'd me. Back to the conversation.

This happens everywhere. It may be American football, football or cricket depending on where you are. People do anything to protect an institution they like (BBC, Penn State, Catholic Church etc.).

Gridiron for Americans is like hockey for Candians, soccer for Euorpeans etc. It's a strange type of psuedo-worship. Only thing is that I seem to notice more gridiron fans worshipping individual players more than specific teams than for fans of other sports. And I'm sure that some of the fans of whoever did this, if outed, will defend him.

 

[SapientWolf]

Um.

Can we all calm down a bit? Thanks.

Athletes are, to put it delicately, a higher-risk group for sexual assault offenses. For instance, John Crosset's 1995 study found that while male athletes comprised 3.7 percent of the student population, they represented 19 percent of sexual assaults reported to the Judicial Affairs Office. What's more, while football and basketball players represented 30 percent of the student-athlete population, they were responsible for 67 percent of the reported sexual assaults.

Obviously the solution is not "end sports" or "stick athletes in cages", but there is a problem nonetheless. I think that the problem is multifaceted; there are issues of sexual entitlement that are exacerbated by recruiting practices (e.g. the use of hostesses giving the impression that sex is being sold, something that (ironically enough) then asisstant athletic director at Notre Dame, Mike Karowski, said) , a culture of protection, and issues of ignorance about consent that face most young men but the pitfalls are perhaps more likely to come up with athletes.

So dealing with issues of sexual entitlement and having coaches and campus administration take sexual assault seriously rather than engaging in protection of offenders, and attempts at better education would probably go a long way towards improving things. I know this last one has happened in some places - for instance, Stanford, Penn State, Miami, Ohio State, etc. have all instituted mandatory sexual assault prevention programs for their players.

From what I've heard, it's not unusual for athletes to host and attend parties where sexual debauchery is the norm. The Chess Club, on the other hand, doesn't have those kinds of groupies. So that factors into the mindset of sexual entitlement.

 

[mre]

mre: Drop it. Thanks.

Whatever. It's not worth it.

 

[Takuan]

http://ncronline.org/news/accountab...tre-dame-campus-leaves-more-questions-answers

This article gives a pretty detailed account of the report filed by Lizzy as well as the actions of the university and is representatives following the accusation. While it's unclear whether or not the player is guilty of sexual assault occurred, it is clear that explicit rape did not. What went down was some kissing followed by groping of her breasts, which was stopped by the player (corroborated by both the deceased's and the player's report). She claimed she was forced into the dance and that the groping was non-consentual, but that she was too scared to stop it. The player says she initiated everything and that he had to stop before things got out of hand, as there would be severe repercussions for him if they were caught. A few more details:

- the player's dorm was not co-ed; it is a punishable offence to bring women into a co-ed dorm and this is reportedly known to all students but especially athletes
- she entered the dorm willingly
- there is documented evidence that she was excited to be hanging out with this player and had an interest in pursuing continued contact with him
- she was at least slightly intoxicated during the events

Given the facts, it's really not as cut and dry a case as the OP presents with respect to the player's guilt.

What's undeniably disgusting is the way Notre Dame handled the accusations and their lack of compassion after her suicide. Their priorities are with the program 100%, and they attack anyone who presents a threat to that.

 

[bjb]

Bumping this because Jezebel wrote a good article tying the rape, Notre Dame's reaction and the Manti Te'o fiasco together.

Link