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Your "Perfect" Batman

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JTripper

Member
I'll bite on the short version:

What is the nature of the setting? (Universe with other superheroes, just Batman, realistic, campy, etc.)
Slighty more campy and colorful than the Animated Series, but still pretty dark when it comes to interpersonal relationships and character psychology. It's a bit of a clashing tone, but whatev. Think Darwyn Cooke aesthetic. Early timeline; the Robin's have been established up to Tim. Justice League is formed, Titans too. Batman still isn't too comfortable working with the League, but he does it regardless. It takes him a LONG time to warm up to the League. Working with them is like a practical career, whereas his work in Gotham is hobby and is his real thrill.


What are Bruce's skills, his proficiency in each, and their focus in the stories?
I enjoy early Batman. Imperfect, makes mistakes and gets beat a lot, but once he gets the upper hand, he fucking wins. Relies on gadgets slightly more than hand-to-hand combat. Let's limit him to Batmobile and Batwing for transportation. His detective skills and ability to read the situation before shit hits the fan is where he shines.


How clear is the division between Bruce Wayne and Batman in Bruce's psyche?
He kinda hates being Bruce and is eager to go out as Batman. Still, when he has to be Bruce, it's a perfect performance and no one can see through the cracks in public. He really only expresses his discomfort as Bruce to Alfred. Alfred is essentially his rock; represents a father figure, only "real" friend, and his therapist.


What rules does Batman follow in his crusade and what his emotional response to it?
Doesn't really question his code, and he never kills.


What is Bruce's relationship to his villains like?
Treats his villains more like his "family" than the Bat-fam. He doesn't like bringing fam members along against the bigger villains like Joker, Riddler, Two-Face. His reason is they're "too dangerous" but really, he wants to handle them alone. It's almost thrilling for him to do it that way. It's how he tests himself......perhaps a fucked up subconscious reason for why he doesn't kill them?????? ;)
Since my favorite villain is Joker, I'd specifically want him as a mixture of psychologically fucked up Snyder/Capullo Joker and coked-up "jokes all the time" Cesar Romero. I have no idea how that would work properly but I would love to see it at least attempted. Joker is Batman's worst nightmare, but best friend. They understand each other more deeply than any other character in this world, and Joker constantly tries to convince Batman of it through complex and absurd situations. Joker is never verbally explicit in trying to convince Batman of how similar they are, or else it might ruin the illusion of their never-ending rivalry.


What is Bruce's relationship to other superheroes like?
Reclusive, and pretty much a loner. When he's with the League, he's focused on getting the mission done as flawless and quickly as possible, which might sound a sloppy way of getting things done, but he's 99% thorough in his methods of preparation. Only other member he's sort of close with is Superman since he's spent more time alone with him than any other member, and Metropolis is closest to Gotham, but he's hesitant to really open up to him as a true "friend" and feels he doesn't really need his "help"


Is Bruce a father?
I think one of the most interesting aspects of Batman is when the "child" figure is introduced, no matter which Robin it might be. So yes. I don't mind Damian either, so yeah my Batman can be a father literally too.


Who is part of the Batfamily, if it exists?
Even though I like Damian, my ideal image of the batfamily is Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Jason, Tim and Barbara. I'm not familiar enough with Stephanie, Kathy or Cassandra to include them yet.


What is Bruce's character arc/development throughout the story?
He's kind of a cocky jerk at first. Hard to tell Bruce from Batman in his early career, but as years go by he gets more used to being Batman. His struggle becomes less of an internal test of *if* he can succeed as Batman as first and more of a exercise in trust and opening himself to his family and questioning his methods (though his original oath of fighting crime and not killing is ALWAYS present and never fundamentally changes).


Does Bruce have a significant other?
Never long-term. Constant girlfriends who don't last. Selina is the "one" but they struggle to take the leap and be together.


How does Bruce die? (Or how does the story end?)
No end in mind, but my vision would go as far as the Batfam becoming divided (Tim handling the Titans and spending less time with Bruce, Jason works alone, Barbara works with the Birds of Prey, Dick operates in Bludhaven). Past that, I don't really know what I'd like to explore. However, I would love for a No Man's Land like event to be what forces them to work together again, and establishes a new status quo and dynamic between each member of the Batfam, then go from there.

Is Batman ultimately a hero or positive figure? Does he generally succeed in his mission?
Half and half. The GCPD and Gotham fear him at first, but generally come to see him as a great hero and role model even in his failures. His failures are usually the result of his reluctance to work with help and forcing himself to constantly carry the weight of the world on his shoulders.


Appreciate the effort put in the thread btw. Really enjoy reading what others would do with the character and mythology!
 

Crayon

Member
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Pau

Member
What am I doing with my life?
Being a good friend? :D

I'm going to try and tackle the short version, primarily because I admire the amount of time and thought you put into this. I'm someone who loves superheroes, but has a very difficult time connecting to Batman at all. I don't read and have never read comic books (which is probably why I don't have much attachment to him), have never seen TAS, Gotham, the JLA animated shows, and whose only real exposure to Batman is through the films (including Adam West), pop culture, casually watching someone play Arkham Asylum, and GAF. Sadly, you will not find a very informed opinion here.
You say it wasn't very informed but honestly I loved reading this. Thinking about Batman in terms of Gothic Romance is super spot on. (Okay, I totally turned in Batman fanfiction in high school for an assignment where we wrote a short story in the Gothic Romance style. That's the one Batman fanfic I've ever written though!)

I really like your observation about the Joker. I think of it more in terms of The Joker thinking that Batman is the only other person on that mountain (and only wanting him there) while Batman is sitting there with his kids and some others. I also think that's why The Joker, while not giving a fuck about "Bruce Wayne" hates the idea of someone else like Dick becoming Batman.

For what it's worth, I do think you'd enjoy B:TAS and some of the comics. (Although I'd have to think of what exactly to recommend there.)
 
Since Op put some much effort into this, guess I will answer. Flash-point universe batman is hands down my favorite because it is so dark and twisted. I really wish the had kept that universe alive in comics somehow.
 

Nudull

Banned
You say it wasn't very informed but honestly I loved reading this. Thinking about Batman in terms of Gothic Romance is super spot on. (Okay, I totally turned in Batman fanfiction in high school for an assignment where we wrote a short story in the Gothic Romance style. That's the one Batman fanfic I've ever written though!)

I really like your observation about the Joker. I think of it more in terms of The Joker thinking that Batman is the only other person on that mountain (and only wanting him there) while Batman is sitting there with his kids and some others. I also think that's why The Joker, while not giving a fuck about "Bruce Wayne" hates the idea of someone else like Dick becoming Batman.

For what it's worth, I do think you'd enjoy B:TAS and some of the comics. (Although I'd have to think of what exactly to recommend there.)

I'm curious to see what you thought of my take on the short questions, haha.
 
I, uh.
Sometimes I feel like a real nerd. Then I enter a comic thread on neogaf.

Kudos to you, Pau. I'll even try.

I don't care about Batman's psyche or origin story or motivations. I just want to see a billionaire use cool gadgets to defeat bad guys. "Those marvelous toys" and all that.

But when it comes to movie magic, I am all for less required cgi because so far it all looks like trash (Jurassic Park was actually impressive, but there's little to compare it to, so you don't get the same level of uncanny valley that Black Panther displayed recently in Civil War). I find myself irritated by the fact that all the Batmans have had black eye makeup applied around the eye socket so the white skin doesn't reflect light when they're wearing the hood. Then they take off the hood for some dramatic scene and have had a magical face wash. I propose Batman be a black guy so it's less jarring. He still has to have a strong jawline, but not like a Jay Leno chin. I didn't like the Batfleck body shape/size because I consider Batman to be more wiry. Perhaps like a capoeira practitioner.

I don't know anything about the Bat family. Bruce works as hard as any executive I've ever met. Wayne Industries is basically Disney. It has fingers in so many pies, you can't keep track anymore and you just hope the NDAs won't kill you in the end.
 

Toa TAK

Banned
Short Version
  1. What is the nature of the setting? (Universe with other superheroes, just Batman, realistic, campy, etc.)
  2. What are Bruce's skills, his proficiency in each, and their focus in the stories?
  3. How clear is the division between Bruce Wayne and Batman in Bruce's psyche?
  4. What rules does Batman follow in his crusade and what his emotional response to it?
  5. What is Bruce's relationship to his villains like?
  6. What is Bruce's relationship to other superheroes like?
  7. Is Bruce a father?
  8. Who is part of the Batfamily, if it exists?
  9. What is Bruce's character arc/development throughout the story?
  10. Does Bruce have a significant other?
  11. How does Bruce die? (Or how does the story end?)
  12. Is Batman ultimately a hero or positive figure? Does he generally succeed in his mission?

Alright, here we go:

What is the nature of the setting? (Universe with other superheroes, just Batman, realistic, campy, etc.)
I would prefer just Batman in a "realistic" setting. Even though I grew up with TAS, the Nolan films sorta whisked me away on that take. I liked that he existed as the only one who took up this self-imposed responsibility in a world that mirrors ours. That probably sounds super bland considering it's Batman and he's a comic book superhero, but I always found it more interesting to see how someone so colorful could operate in the "real world" so-to-speak. If I could get away with it, I would love for it to be either the modern day take (which is what I'll base the rest of the post of) or even the 1940s (since B-man was made in '39) but I guess with his rogues gallery that would have to be some alternate 1940s or have some dieselpunk thrown in on account of some of his more fantastic enemies like Bane, Mr. Freeze, and Clayface.

What are Bruce's skills, his proficiency in each, and their focus in the stories?
He's still got to be the world's greatest detective. Ace with technology and a scientist himself (which field specifically? Undetermined as that would likely vary depending on the antagonist). As far as martial arts go, instead of knowing many different variations of martial arts, he would at least master one. I don't see how the man would have all the time to hone in his skills among everything else if he had more than one type of martial arts. The focus of each of his skillsets would depend on the situation, right? I'm sure if he's dealing with Poison Ivy, he would need to brush up on Biochemistry at the least, and if it's Mr. Freeze, that's where his technological expertise should come in. His detective skills would come in handy when trying to link crimes back to various mob groups.

How clear is the division between Bruce Wayne and Batman in Bruce's psyche?
This is a hard one in that I answered the rest first and came back to this, but I think I got it: he simply is himself, Bruce, throughout. Donning the cape and cowl just allows him to further help his city without compromising his name to the public and his family that he stands for. I liked a lot of how TAS did it, in that there didn't seem to be much division in the two (although I really should give it a rewatch eventually, at least up to the change in art direction). Sure there's more theatricality, and focus in his mission, but there's no clear-cut personality switch when he's out patrolling at night.

What rules does Batman follow in his crusade and what his emotional response to it?
The "No kill" rule is the big one. Even if causes more problems than good, it should be looked at as an example to the people of Gotham to know where the line should be drawn, and to Bruce himself. It would be hard, especially on someone like the Joker or Mad Hatter (that dude has no business running around, either).

What is Bruce's relationship to his villains like?
I would like to think that he would still try to reason and empathize with them. He should be a humanist, even for those who might be too far gone (Two-Face, Joker, Mad Hatter, hell even Zsasz). I think it's important that he would try to maintain some sort of connection so that he maintains some perspective and to know that what he does isn't something 'normal' people do.

What is Bruce's relationship to other superheroes like?
There are none in my fan-fic version of Batman :mad:

Is Bruce a father?
No, I think adding that layer would cause some waiver in his resolve to secure Gotham, plus, how does the man have the time? It's silly, since the comics can depict this alright, but working, school, and a social life is busy enough. Then Bruce has to do what the upper class is expected of him, his duties at work, then having the energy to be Batman in what's essentially the world's hardest graveyard shift. Hardly anyone else can fit into that schedule who aren't the police, Alfred, and whomever else he's working with on a particular case.

Who is part of the Batfamily, if it exists?
It doesn't.

What is Bruce's character arc/development throughout the story?
I think it would be that the man needs to learn limitations. He has an amazing skill set, is knowledgeable and just plain intelligent, but there's always the danger of knowing how good you are in comparison to others around you and letting a tiny bit of ego, pride, or arrogance set in. He can't always save the day and juggle the life beyond his (self-imposed) Batman responsibilities. Sooner or later he'll learn he can't do everything, even if he think's he can learn from his mistakes and make 'perfect runs' throughout the night dealing with crimes and innocents.

Does Bruce have a significant other?
I'd imagine it would be Selina Kyle. He can still with with her during the night and day as they both are similar in a sense. Both have day jobs, but put on an animal-themed costume and run around at night with their own agenda. That's already a lot more relatable than most of the women he's with at rich parties I'm sure. Talia would be pretty interesting as well, with an agenda greater than Catwoman's heists should cause some serious friction between the two.

How does Bruce die? (Or how does the story end?)
Retirement doesn't seem like the way he'd go out. I think the story would end with him at an older age finally coming to terms with his end with someone younger, maybe the age when he became Batman himself. Another option is even the typical heroic sacrifice with breadcrumbs left behind for someone he knows who can take up the mantle. Or maybe it's a combination of the two.

Is Batman ultimately a hero or positive figure? Does he generally succeed in his mission?
Yes and yes. He's still a man, he'll make mistakes and lose some, but to become the legend of the Batman he'll win out more, eventually inspire, and become an exemplar of righteousness and justice for ages--generations after he perishes.

This was pretty cool to do, Pau, looking at it as a writing exercise kind of deal. I should've hit up the rest of the questtionare, but when looking through I realized I would be here all night.
 

Pau

Member
Since Op put some much effort into this, guess I will answer. Flash-point universe batman is hands down my favorite because it is so dark and twisted. I really wish the had kept that universe alive in comics somehow.
That's not Bruce though! ;-; I'd have to make separate threads for non-Bruce Batmen.
Don't worry GAF, I won't subject you to that. :p

And really, it wasn't any effort. It was fun! :p

I'm curious to see what you thought of my take on the short questions, haha.
I was gonna wait until you did the whole thing but okay! <3 I also didn't want to turn this into like a... "Pau judges your perfect Batman" thing, but I really do love reading everyone's responses and seeing how people think about this character so I just started replying...

In the end, they are two sides of the same coin.
Interesting that you don't see them as conflicting personas or one as more legitimate than the other.

After all, Bruce could've easily been in the same spot as his greatest villains were.
Yes, I definitely believe this. I posted about it on GAF earlier, but I do think the Batman story is ultimately one of agency in the face of mental illness and trauma. So for myself, I have to believe that we can make that choice of being a good force in society or a bad one. But that's not to say it's not hard as fuck. I think Bruce understands that.

He sees reintegrating villains into society as a greater victory than simply throwing them in prison.
I really like this answer and I love when the Batman stories go out of their way to show this. Not just with villains but also criminals. Like how he hires a lot of the low-level goons.

Bruce's dedication towards making sure people don't go through the same pain he dealt with when he lost his parents
*nods*

So is We Are Robin worth reading? I know nothing about Duke. I'm always a bit wary of new kids coming into the picture because it's just gonna be another source of disappointment when DC fucks them over...

Sure, male or female. Of course, considering who made this thread... :p
You know me too well.

I, uh.
Sometimes I feel like a real nerd. Then I enter a comic thread on neogaf.

Kudos to you, Pau. I'll even try.

I don't care about Batman's psyche or origin story or motivations. I just want to see a billionaire use cool gadgets to defeat bad guys. "Those marvelous toys" and all that.
I think even the real nerds think I'm out of my mind. :p And fair enough. Watching someone who's super competent do cool stuff is definitely part of the appeal.
 

Pau

Member
This was pretty cool to do, Pau, looking at it as a writing exercise kind of deal. I should've hit up the rest of the questtionare, but when looking through I realized I would be here all night.
No worries dude. I should have honestly just put up the short version but I kept wanting to see if there's another person as obsessed as me out there. :p
 
You say it wasn't very informed but honestly I loved reading this. Thinking about Batman in terms of Gothic Romance is super spot on. (Okay, I totally turned in Batman fanfiction in high school for an assignment where we wrote a short story in the Gothic Romance style. That's the one Batman fanfic I've ever written though!)

I really like your observation about the Joker. I think of it more in terms of The Joker thinking that Batman is the only other person on that mountain (and only wanting him there) while Batman is sitting there with his kids and some others. I also think that's why The Joker, while not giving a fuck about "Bruce Wayne" hates the idea of someone else like Dick becoming Batman.

For what it's worth, I do think you'd enjoy B:TAS and some of the comics. (Although I'd have to think of what exactly to recommend there.)

I'm glad you liked it, because as you are obviously a big fan and I admittedly know very little, I wasn't sure what you would think. I don't read comics, but I read a ton of books, and Batman consistently reminds me of that genre. Like if Jane Eyre wandered into Dracula's castle.

I totally see what you're saying about the Joker and Batman on the mountain. I didn't picture his family there with him, because I have so very little Batfamily to draw from in my experience with the character. Again, the movies do very little in this regard. From what I gather about the family, your interpretation makes a lot of sense.

I think I'd like TAS too. I'll look and see if it's on Netflix. I'm more cautious about trying my hand at a comic. If I were to choose something, I'd like it to contain consistent characterizations and contain a relatively confined story. The primary reason I don't read comics is because I don't like the sprawling nature of the storytelling with no end in sight. I get that that appeals to a lot of people, but it just isn't what I look for in stories. If you know of something that I'd like, I'd be up for trying it.
 

JTripper

Member
I'm glad you liked it, because as you are obviously a big fan and I admittedly know very little, I wasn't sure what you would think. I don't read comics, but I read a ton of books, and Batman consistently reminds me of that genre. Like if Jane Eyre wandered into Dracula's castle.

I totally see what you're saying about the Joker and Batman on the mountain. I didn't picture his family there with him, because I have so very little Batfamily to draw from in my experience with the character. Again, the movies do very little in this regard. From what I gather about the family, your interpretation makes a lot of sense.

I think I'd like TAS too. I'll look and see if it's on Netflix. I'm more cautious about trying my hand at a comic. If I were to choose something, I'd like it to contain consistent characterizations and contain a relatively confined story. The primary reason I don't read comics is because I don't like the sprawling nature of the storytelling with no end in sight. I get that that appeals to a lot of people, but it just isn't what I look for in stories. If you know of something that I'd like, I'd be up for trying it.

Every season of TAS is on Amazon Instant Video last time I checked.

The unfortunate thing about even some of the more concise and linear arcs in the comics is that there's a reluctance to conclude or establish something so concrete and definitive out of fear that it'll affect the historical legacy of any given character or canon. But in that situation, The Dark Knight Returns is specifically something that tries to play with that idea, so you might like it.

I'd go so far as to recommend Death of the Family and Endgame as stories that specifically aim to examine the psychology and relationship shared between Batman and Joker, but even those stories are part of the larger, ongoing nature of the comics currently. Regardless, I still think they can be read as standalone analyses of the characters without worrying about where the comics will take them next.
 

Nudull

Banned
Interesting that you don't see them as conflicting personas or one as more legitimate than the other.

Bruce and Batman balance each other out, one being able to do certain things that the other can't. They can co-exist, and it works best when people remember that Bruce does things other than go to upper-class parties when he's not Batman.

Take the Telltale game for example, with Bruce wanting to fund Arkham Asylum's complete renovation (and GOD ALMIGHTY KNOWS it needed one) so that it would be a state-of-the-art facility for treating the mentally ill.

So is We Are Robin worth reading? I know nothing about Duke. I'm always a bit wary of new kids coming into the picture because it's just gonna be another source of disappointment when DC fucks them over...

I haven't gotten around to reading We Are Robin in full, but Duke has been one of the neater things about Snyder/Capullo's Batman. Currently, DC is having him do his own thing in-costume instead of being just another Robin, and I'm curious to see where that goes.
 
Just the short version, sorry :)

My big brother had a collection of Batman comics from 70's, 80's and early 90's and I used to read them over and over again and love everything as a child, so that's where I'm coming from.

What is the nature of the setting? (Universe with other superheroes, just Batman, realistic, campy, etc.)

Grim realistic. Batman is mostly dealing with criminals and gangsters, and psychos like Joker and Riddler. Some supernatural horror hinted but always kept behind the veil. Superpowers not really evident.

What are Bruce's skills, his proficiency in each, and their focus in the stories?

He's a master detective and can beat up people pretty good.

How clear is the division between Bruce Wayne and Batman in Bruce's psyche?

No division. He's pretty broken mentally and Bruce Wayne is an act.

What rules does Batman follow in his crusade and what his emotional response to it?

He has the no kill thing going, but it is challenged quite a bit. He is not rational about it.

What is Bruce's relationship to his villains like?

The Joker - Batman thing is an everlasting loop. Batman wont kill Joker and Joker keeps escaping from Arkham and destroying whatever Batman has built (as in having cleaned the streets, or having people get close to him etc.). Batman hates Joker for this. Other villains are pretty much the same, but not to the same decree as Joker.

What is Bruce's relationship to other superheroes like?

Even if they exist in the universe, they don't really show up.

Is Bruce a father?

No, just a (lousy) father figure to Robin.

Who is part of the Batfamily, if it exists?

Robin and Batgirl are there, as is Alfred.

What is Bruce's character arc/development throughout the story?

He has to deal with the fact that he's not really making any progress in making Gotham safer and the guilt of everything Joker has done because he hasn't stopped / killed him. He is getting angrier and more violent by the time. He's also starting to push people away.

Does Bruce have a significant other?

He loves Selina and she loves him back, but they can't make it work because Catwoman is always gonna Catwoman in the end. But they have their moments under moonlight on the rooftops of Gotham.

How does Bruce die? (Or how does the story end?)

He kills Joker and in the process let's so many people die that he can't deal with the guilt and calls it quits. Ends up a hermit or dead in an ambiguous ending.

Is Batman ultimately a hero or positive figure? Does he generally succeed in his mission?

He did stop Joker in the end, but will be remembered more as a vigilante than a hero. Those close to him who are still alive think he was a hero.
 
I'm just making a guess here, but are you perhaps a fan of Batman, OP?



My frame of reference for Batman is just from the movies and Arkham games, so I'll just take what I like from each of them, which is - Nolan's Batman who can actually fight and does not obsess over Rachel Dawes.

Maybe I'll try answering for the heck of it:



Appearance, Personality, etc.
  1. Describe what you think Bruce should look like. Or post a picture. Live action, favorite artist rendition, anything goes. (Doesn't have to be an actor that has already portrayed him.)
    Baleman
  2. What is his body type?
    Baleman and definitely not Arkham or Batfleck
  3. What is the primary driving force for Bruce's crusade?
    Baleman
  4. What's Bruce's personality like in general?
    Baleman
  5. How clear is the division between Bruce Wayne and Batman in Bruce's psyche? (If you want to talk about who the real persona is, this is your chance.)
    Dunno
  6. How social or anti-social is Bruce?
    What? No
  7. How talkative is he? What's his speech like?
    Nope
  8. Does Bruce enjoy inflicting violence or does he see it as a necessary evil?
    Nope
  9. What are Bruce's flaws re: personality? His strengths?
    Nope
  10. Does Bruce suffer from any mental illnesses such as depression, PTSD, OCD, etc.?
    As Nolan had highlighted it so well, he must be to be doing what he does
  11. Is Bruce ever suicidal? When?
    Errr...
  12. What does Bruce enjoy? Can he actually enjoy anything?
    Errr...
  13. What does Bruce's character arc look like? Does he have one?
    Errr...
  14. Is Bruce a tragic figure? Can he have a happy ending?
    Yes why not
  15. Is Bruce ultimately a hero or not?
    Yes why not
Skills
  1. What are Bruce's skills and how proficient is he in each?
    Baleman
  2. What's Bruce's strongest skill?
    His...brains?
  3. How smart is Bruce?
    Very, but not scientist-smart
  4. Does he build his own technology?
    No
  5. How does he rank against other superheroes in similar skills? (Fighting, intelligence, etc.)
    Dunno
  6. Should Bruce be able to pull off something like in Tower of Babel/Justice League Doom where he can take down super-powered individuals?
    WAT
The Job
  1. What rules does Batman follow?
    Baleman
  2. How strict is Batman's no-kill rule? Does he have one?
    Baleman
  3. How does Batman feel about collateral damage?
    Baleman
  4. Does Batman use guns? If not in general, are there any exceptions?
    Baleman
  5. How far does Batman's violence go?
    I have no particular preference
  6. Given that torture is ineffective, should Batman (or rather his writers) use torture? Or should Batman exist in an alternative universe where torture works for narrative purposes? Would Batman use torture even if it doesn't work?
    Dunno
  7. What type of crime does Batman deal with the most?
    Dunno
  8. What does Bruce do to fight crime outside of detective work and pursuing criminals?
    Dunno
  9. How involved is Bruce in his company?
    I like Nolan's approach, ie barely because being Batman is strenuous enough
  10. What does Bruce do outside of the Batman persona to help Gotham?
    Probably make donations and... shit.
  11. What is the nature of his company?
    WAT
  12. Are Batman's activities a net positive or negative for Gotham?
    Probably necessary
The Villains
  1. Who are Bruce's top ten villains?
    Dunno
  2. Who are his most dangerous villains?
    Dunno
  3. How often is Bruce fighting a supervillain versus ordinary crime?
    Dunno
  4. Does Bruce believe in the rehabilitation of his rogues gallery? Regular criminals? Are there exceptions?
    Dunno
  5. Does Arkham have a revolving door?
    Dunno
  6. Do any villains "reform"? From Bruce's actions?
    Dunno
  7. Does the Joker ever die? How?
    He should be like Heath Ledger's joker disappear the first time Batman defeats him
The Setting
  1. What tone do you prefer?
    Nolan
  2. Does Batman exist in a universe with other superheroes (such as Superman) or is he the only one?
    I don't mind with
  3. If Batman exists within the DC universe, how detached is Gotham from it?
    Dunno
  4. Do you prefer Batman to be set in a particular time period?
    Dunno
  5. How supernatural is the setting? How technologically advanced?
    Dunno
  6. Is Gotham the universe's New York City? Where is it located?
    Dunno
Early Life/Childhood


....Okay I can't take this anymore.
]
 

Jintor

Member
Jesus christ, Pau.

TAS with modifications is my ask.

[*]What is the nature of the setting? (Universe with other superheroes, just Batman, realistic, campy, etc.)
Realistic but tinged with more idealism than cynicism.

[*]What are Bruce's skills, his proficiency in each, and their focus in the stories?

World's Greatest Detective/Martial Artist. Focus should largely be on the emotional aspects of his stories though rather than his raw ability - it should just be taken as a given that, short of superpowered characters, Bats is always going to come out on top.

[*]How clear is the division between Bruce Wayne and Batman in Bruce's psyche?

I like the classic "Batman is rule and Bruce Wayne is the mask", but there's room for areas of conflict.

[*]What rules does Batman follow in his crusade and what his emotional response to it?
No Killing
Everyone deserves a chance (unless they're the joker)

[*]What is Bruce's relationship to his villains like?
He'll offer a chance for redemption but there's a batarang in the other hand. Fuck the Joker though.

[*]What is Bruce's relationship to other superheroes like?


[*]Is Bruce a father?
Damien Wayne specifically yes. To the rest of the Batclan also.

[*]Who is part of the Batfamily, if it exists?
Pretty much everyone (Alfred, Dick, Babs, Tim, Steph, Cass, Jason on the periphery, Selina, Damien)

[*]What is Bruce's character arc/development throughout the story?
I'd like to end up with Batman Beyond old man Wayne but without having to shag Barbara or destroy the entire Batfamily to get there.

[*]Does Bruce have a significant other?
Selina. Was with Talia for Damien. Probably others in life like the Phantasm etc.

[*]How does Bruce die? (Or how does the story end?)
Saving others. See Batman RIP: Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader.

[*]Is Batman ultimately a hero or positive figure? Does he generally succeed in his mission?
Yes and no.

Hopefully one day he'll realise that crime is a structural problem. But maybe that's not actually true in the DC Universe where crime seems to be focused around powered individuals. Then again the DC Universe isn't subject to economics.

 
Sounds like I might need to watch a bit from Person of Interest?
Seeing as you're a batman superfan, I strongly encourage it (as long as you're okay putting up with the procedural nature of the show).

Unfortunately my holiday has me with only limited mobile access for now, so I'm afraid it may be awhile before I can answer your questions in full. In the meantime, the detail and effort that you've taken in this is awesome and appreciated.
 

Jintor

Member
A question I've thought about more personally is what Batman stories people feel are actually good and worthwhile to add to their idea of Bat-canon. I only have a few I would have without modifications:

Year One and The Long Halloween
Together I think these two are fucking perfect depictions of early Batman and a headstart on his rogues gallery, with a beautiful exploration of Selina, Dent and Gordon early on as well.

Batgirl Year One
I just really like Barbara's story here and I think it's basically perfect.

The Killing Joke
It has its problems, especially with damselling Babs, but it's really influential for a reason.

Mad Love, Heart of Ice, Beware the Grey Ghost, Feat of Clay, Perchance to Dream, (BTAS)
Perfect episodes.

Bonus:
Gotham Central
Holy shit is this good even though it doesn't focus on Bats at all really

Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?
This is more like a dream but whateverrrrr

---
Use but modify:

Cataclysm/No Man's Land
I love these two storylines a whole lot because they place the Batfamily in this completely different, near-apocolyptic situation where the locus of crime and survival intersect in this wonderfully ambiguous way. Unfortunately it just makes zero sense within the context of the wider USA, so it'd have to be moved around a bit. I really do like the idea that after all that crime-fighting and supervillain threats the thing that really shakes Gotham up in a permanent way (so to speak) is a total force of nature.

Hush/Under the Hood
I always liked the idea of Hush but to me the execution was always lacking, though I really love the way Selina and Bruce's relationship develops in it. Likewise I love the idea of Jason coming back... but not because Superboy punched reality really hard.

Grant Morrison's Batman
Fucking Grant Morrison. His shit is so good except that it's insane and crazy.

Court of Owls and Dark Victory
I haven't actually read these but they sound dope.

Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth and Living Hell
Fantastic but largely one-shots in the scheme of things.
 

IrishNinja

Member
i appreciate what OP was going for here, but yeah, animated bats is prolly best. the comics have felt wholly inconsistent over the years for me.

still, i think Neal Adams' look was most iconic, and even then, Daredevil > bats by a country mile.
 

Nudull

Banned
I do wonder how divided GAF may be on Superman and Batman as friends/enemies. Sure, it can be fun to see them butt heads, but they're called the World's Finest for a reason.

CL8866K.png


There are very few people on the planet that Supes himself would trust with Kryptonite in case he ever needed to be stopped. I mean, how can you not love the constant bantering between them in Superman/Batman: Public Enemies?
 

watershed

Banned
One quality I feel is essential to any great characterization of batman is at minimum a touch of crazy. Keaton did this really well and Frank Miller, before he himself went crazy, did a great job showing some serious psychosis behind the mask. I really like the idea that Batman is basically the true identity and Bruce Wayne is the mask. Last, Batman is Batman, not for any specific end but rather because he has to be.

To me, this is what was missing from the Nolan/Bale Batman. He wasn't really crazy, just self-righteous and full of rage. He was never really Batman, even in Batman Begins Bruce Wayne was already anticipating a day when he would stop being Batman. Those 2 qualities don't jive with how I understand the character of Batman.
 

McNum

Member
I do wonder how divided GAF may be on Superman and Batman as friends/enemies. Sure, it can be fun to see them butt heads, but they're called the World's Finest for a reason.

http://i.imgur.com/CL8866K.png

There are very few people on the planet that Supes himself would trust with Kryptonite in case he ever needed to be stopped. I mean, how can you not love the constant bantering between them in Superman/Batman: Public Enemies?
To me, as I wrote earlier in the thread, Batman and Superman work very well together. If anything I'd say Superman is probably the one person other than Alfred that Batman absolutely trusts. And that goes both ways. Superman gave Batman that Kryptonite ring because he knows that if it really becomes necessary, Batman WILL use it, but at the same time that unless he really needs to, he will NOT.

It's also why I feel like putting Batman in a fight with Superman is just so... forced. Outside external factors like mind control and other comic book foolery, they wouldn't. Even if they ended up on opposite sides due to ideologies, they'd still hear the other one out. Then team up and beat up the Joker or Lex Luthor or whoever was dumb enough to try and fool the World's Greatest Detective and the Man of Tomorrow.

I'm not sure if I'd call them friends, mostly because I'm not entirely sure Batman does friends. But they have a lot of respect for each other and they literally trust each other with their lives.
 

Metalmarc

Member
Too many questions in the OP, all i know is Karl Urban would be a good, based on his take on Dredd, also he'd be a good bruce wayne too

image.jpg
 

Alienous

Member
Appearance, Personality, etc.
  1. Describe what you think Bruce should look like. Or post a picture. Live action, favorite artist rendition, anything goes. (Doesn't have to be an actor that has already portrayed him.)
    - The merged live-action portrayals is close to how I'd visualize Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne as a character has black hair and blue eyes, but really that's always seemed to fit Superman more.
  2. What is his body type?
    - A lithe build in his early career, gradually building muscle and a more imposing physique as he nears the end of his tenure as Batman.
  3. What is the primary driving force for Bruce's crusade?
    - Grief, I suppose. A personal desire to see the end of criminal acts that harm the innocent.
  4. What's Bruce's personality like in general?
    - Cold, I'd imagine.
  5. How clear is the division between Bruce Wayne and Batman in Bruce's psyche? (If you want to talk about who the real persona is, this is your chance.)
    - Real persona is Batman. The private face of Bruce Wayne is still Batman, the public face of Bruce Wayne is of someone boisterous.
  6. How social or anti-social is Bruce?
    - Anti-social. I don't imagine him seeking unnecessary conversation.
  7. How talkative is he? What's his speech like?
    - I'd say he says precisely what he feels needs to be said and not more.
  8. Does Bruce enjoy inflicting violence or does he see it as a necessary evil?
    - Both. It's catharsis for his helplessness and needed to be feared.
  9. What are Bruce's flaws re: personality? His strengths?
    - I always think of his super-power as discipline, his personality flaws would probably be getting close to people after the death of his parents and not being entirely trusting of even his allies.
  10. Does Bruce suffer from any mental illnesses such as depression, PTSD, OCD, etc.?
    - PTSD, perhaps OCD. I expect he gets antsy if he's unable to patrol as Batman.
  11. Is Bruce ever suicidal? When?
    - I wouldn't say so. More revenge driven.
  12. What does Bruce enjoy? Can he actually enjoy anything?
    - Perhaps individual moments with the Bat-Family.
  13. What does Bruce's character arc look like? Does he have one?
    - Parents are murdered, continues life as normal, studies Chemistry in school, perhaps Engineering too, graduates, maybe returns to Gotham and sees the cesspool it is, spends ~10 years abroad learning the skills he needs as a vigilante, returns and fights crime where the corrupt police force doesn't. Takes down the Gotham City mob, in doing so sows the seeds for many of the super-villains of Gotham to be born and adopt theatrics (the Joker, Two-Face, Black Mask) etc. His career spans about 10-15 years before 'retirement',
  14. Is Bruce a tragic figure? Can he have a happy ending?
    - Yeah. I don't think he can
  15. Is Bruce ultimately a hero or not?
    - Debatable.

Skills
  1. What are Bruce's skills and how proficient is he in each?
    - I'd primarily say Chemistry[9], Deduction[9], Hand-to-Hand Fighting[8], Using bladed weaponry[7]. Asigning them a 1-10 rating.
  2. What's Bruce's strongest skill?
    - See above.
  3. How smart is Bruce?
    - Not intelligent enough to build a time-machine, but intelligent enough to do many of the things a skilled person could do within the fields he's experienced in.
  4. Does he build his own technology?
    - Modifies it. I prefer gadgets like his Grapnel Gun being built for him.
  5. How does he rank against other superheroes in similar skills? (Fighting, intelligence, etc.)
    - Jack of all trades, master of maybe being a Detective. The best fighters could beat him in a fight, Mr. Terrific or Lex Luthor could outwit him.
  6. Should Bruce be able to pull off something like in Tower of Babel/Justice League Doom where he can take down super-powered individuals?
    - Technology-wise I'm not sure, but in terms of plans that exploit the weaknesses of his allies, yes.

The Job
  1. What rules does Batman follow?
    - No killing. No guns, outside of specific, necessary and non-fatal instances.
  2. How strict is Batman's no-kill rule? Does he have one?
    - Extremely strict.
  3. How does Batman feel about collateral damage?
    - Plans ahead to avoid it, so therefore the fault of his villains.
  4. Does Batman use guns? If not in general, are there any exceptions?
    - As said before, exceptions. He'd use a gun if given no other option, but not to kill.
  5. How far does Batman's violence go?
    - Bruises and being knocked out in his earlier career, broken bones in his later career.
  6. Given that torture is ineffective, should Batman (or rather his writers) use torture? Or should Batman exist in an alternative universe where torture works for narrative purposes? Would Batman use torture even if it doesn't work?
    - Interrogation more than torture. Batman would use an implied threat. Perhaps inflicting pain initially, but more as a threat that further pain is coming if his questions remain unanswered, more than inflicting constant pain and only stopping when his questions are answered.
  7. What type of crime does Batman deal with the most?
    - Petty crime. Comic books, TV shows, movies, games aren't generally depictions of a normal Batman patrol.
  8. What does Bruce do to fight crime outside of detective work and pursuing criminals?
    - Early career, nothing. Bruce is strictly the caricature of a irresponsible playboy. With urging from Alfred would become a philanthropist Bruce Wayne (after Batman has been established, and Bruce Wayne seen as being too self-serving to be a likely candidate).
  9. How involved is Bruce in his company?
    - Involved by proxy of Lucius. Goes to some boardroom meetings.
  10. What does Bruce do outside of the Batman persona to help Gotham?
    - Funding things that benefit communities (orphanages, hospitals, etc.)
  11. What is the nature of his company?
    - Heavily involved in Gotham City infrastructure, Security, transport.
  12. Are Batman's activities a net positive or negative for Gotham?
    - Debatable.
The Villains
  1. Who are Bruce's top ten villains?
    The ones that are depicted most frequently. The Joker. Two-Face. Bane. Ra's Al Ghul, etc
  2. Who are his most dangerous villains?
    The Joker
  3. How often is Bruce fighting a supervillain versus ordinary crime?
    Perhaps once a week.
  4. Does Bruce believe in the rehabilitation of his rogues gallery? Regular criminals? Are there exceptions?
    - Yes, he believes in rehabilitation for them all. Even the Joker, His justifcation for continually locking them up.
  5. Does Arkham have a revolving door?
    - Not as much as depicted in the comics. Like, I'd expect the Joker to remain locked up for months between his outbreaks.
  6. Do any villains "reform"? From Bruce's actions?
    - Maybe. I'm thinking more Catwoman that villains like the Riddler though.
  7. Does the Joker ever die? How?
    - In a final confrontation with Batman, of some sort.

The Setting
  1. What tone do you prefer?
    Self-serious.
  2. Does Batman exist in a universe with other superheroes (such as Superman) or is he the only one?
    He can exist in a universe with other superheroes, but if he does I'd say that he meets them in his late career (à la Batman v Superman, perhaps not that late though) rather than early on.
  3. If Batman exists within the DC universe, how detached is Gotham from it?
    - Semi-detached. Batman asserts that it's his domain.
  4. Do you prefer Batman to be set in a particular time period?
    - No.
  5. How supernatural is the setting? How technologically advanced?
    - Supernatural - not very. The technology is modern.
  6. Is Gotham the universe's New York City? Where is it located?
    Not sure

Early Life/Childhood
  1. Does Bruce experience anything related to bats like in the Nolan films?
    - Yeah. 'Man who falls' traumatic experiences with bats.
  2. How early does Alfred start working for the Waynes?
    - Hmm. Not sure. I like the version of Alfred who was Thomas and Martha Wayne's bodyguard, though, so maybe during Martha's pregnancy?
  3. What's Bruce's personality as a child like?
    - Happy until his parents are murdered.
  4. Does Bruce meet or form relationships with any characters that will end up being important later in his life? (Ex: Tommy who becomes Hush, The Penguin in the Telltale games, etc.)
    - Sure. Tommy and Oswald.
  5. Is Bruce already obsessed with heroes? (Zorro, The Gray Ghost, Green Lantern [Alan Scott]?)
    - A fan of Zorro or The Gray Ghost as a child, sure.
  6. What's Bruce's relationship with his parents like? (Thomas, Martha, and Alfred?)
    - Happy.
  7. What's Bruce's schooling like? Before the murders? After?
    - Continued schooling. School away from home for University.
  8. Were Thomas and Martha involved in anything shady?
    - No.
  9. Does Bruce have a relationship with his grandparents?
    - No.
  10. What movie does the family watch before the murders?
    - Mask of Zorro.
  11. Are the murders just a random mugging? An assassination?
    - Random mugging that people suspect was an assassination.
  12. Does Jim Gordon meet him that night? Does Leslie Thompkins?
    - Yeah.
After the Murders
  1. How early does Bruce decide he wants to be a superhero?
    15?
  2. What is his training regiment like before he leaves Gotham?
    - Probably something generic.
  3. How early does he tell Alfred?
    - Doesn't until he returns home from University.
  4. Does he go to college? If so, where and what does he study?
    - Chemistry.
  5. At what age does he leave Gotham to go on his training world tour?
    21 - 22.
  6. What does he learn and who are his mentors?
    I can't recall the mentor's names exactly. Starts with detective work, wall-climbing, driving (things like that), ends his ~10 years of training training in martial arts at some place.

Coming back to Gotham and the First Years
  1. - At what age does Bruce return to Gotham? Is there some sort of catalyst for his return?
    ~30. Training is complete.
  2. How does Bruce pick a bat to be his symbol?
    - He spots a bat in Wayne Manor when looking for inspiration after seeing that thugs are frightened of a dude in a balaclava.
  3. Does Bruce attempt superheroics before becoming Batman?
    - Heroics, yes.
  4. Does Bruce meet Selina in these attempts?
    - No.
  5. How long is Bruce in town before he becomes Batman?
    - This is a tricky one. I'm inclined to say he comes back as just Batman, establishes Batman and remains hidden as Bruce Wayne for the first 9 or so months of his career. Then he 'returns to Gotham' as Bruce Wayne when Batman is already being talked about.
  6. Does he meet Andrea Beaumont? Julie Madison? Vikki Vale?
    Julie and Vikki? Yes. Andrea? Maybe..
  7. Who names Batman and his stuff? (Batcave, Batmobile, etc.) Are the later named in-universe?
    - They're named by Dick Grayson.
  8. Which of Bruce's villains appear during the the first few years of his career?
    - The mobsters. Zsasz. Penguin.
  9. What mistakes does he make?
    Thinking Jason Todd could be Robin. Dick Grayson was naturally gifted, an athelete since his youth who had developed a discipline. Jason Todd wasn't.
  10. What is his relationship with the GCPD?
    - Hostile in the early years.
  11. How does he meet other non-Gotham superheroes?
    - He doesn't, not in the early years. They aren't active, save for Superman who isn't in a cape yet.
  12. Is Batman a founding member of the Justice League?
    - There's no Justice League in the early years.
  13. What is the nature of the public's knowledge of Batman?
    - Starts off as an urban legend, is accepted as reality in Year Two of his career.
The following questions deal with Bruce's children: the Robins, Batgirls, etc. If you prefer your Batman sans a family, skip to the next section.

The Batman Family
  1. Does Batman ever get his Batfamily? How?
    - Gradually, starting with Dick Grayson.
  2. Who is counted in the Batfamliy? In the Wayne family? (Who is legally adopted?)
    - Another tricky one. I'm not sure, because I find Bruce adopting Dick Grayson clashes too obviously with his playboy persona.
  3. Does Dick become Robin? Nightwing? Red Robin? Batman?
    Some Frank Miller shit?
    At what ages?
    - Dick, Robin at 14, Nightwing at 18, Batman (tempoarily) at 21 or so
  4. What is the nature of Bruce's relationship with Dick?
  5. Does Barbara Gordon become Batgirl? Oracle? Is The Killing Joke canon? Ages for each?
    - Barbara, Batgirl at 15, Oracle at 20.
  6. What is the nature of Bruce's relationship with Babs?
    - Not sexual.
  7. Do Bruce and Dick still work together as adults?
    - On occasion.
  8. Does Jason become Robin? Red Hood? Red Robin? At what ages?
    - Jason, Robin at 15, dead at 17, Red Hood at 21-22.
  9. What is the nature of Bruce's relationship with Dick?
    Mentor-student.
  10. Is Jason ever redeemed, brought back into the family, and his relationship with Bruce mended?
    Sure.
  11. Does Tim become Robin? Red Robin? Batman?
    Joker
    - Becomes Robin.
  12. Does Cassandra Cain become Batgirl? Black Bat? Batwoman/Batman?
    - Eh.
  13. Does Stephanie Brown become Spoiler? Batgirl? Robin? Nightwing?
    - Eh.
  14. Does Helena Bertinelli become Huntress? Batwoman?
    - Eh.
  15. Do Kathy Kane and Betty Kane become Batwoman and Batgirl?
    - Kate Kane? Batwoman.
  16. Is Damian born? Who raises him? Does he become Robin? Batman?
    - Yes. Not a huge fan of the accelerated aging thing, so let's say he's conceived in Batman's Year Two and ages naturally, meeting his father at around the age of 9.
    [*]Is Helena born? Who raises her? Does she become Robin? Huntress? Batwoman/Batman?
    - No Helena.
    [*]
    Is Bruce Jr. born?
    - No.
    [*]Does Carrie Kelly become Robin? Catgirl? :/
    - No.
    [*]I guess I should have a question about Roy Harper?
    - No.
    [*]Does the "We are Robin" stuff exist?
    - No.
    [*]Is Kate Kane Bruce's cousin? Does she become Batwoman?
    - Yeah, sure.
    [*]What's up with Terry?
    - Replaces Batman.
    [*]Do any of the above die? Do they come back?
    - No, I wouldn't say any die.
    [*]Is Selina part of the family or a rogue?
    - Not a part of the family, close to Batman though.
    [*]Who does Bruce consider to be the heir to the Batman title? (Can be multiple.)
    - Dick Grayson, who doesn't really want the title.


Relationships and Sexuality
Shipping
  1. Who is (are) Bruce's romantic soulmate(s)? (Gotham is a valid answer, I guess.)
    - Talia al Ghul, Selina Kyle.
  2. Is Bruce only into women?
    - Yes (unlike Dick, who'll fuck anything that moves)
  3. Does Bruce actually sleep with the women he "wines and dines" for his playboy persona?
    - No
  4. Who has Bruce fallen in love with, if anyone? Does he pursue any sort of sexual and/or romantic relationship with them?
    - Talia al Ghul.
  5. Does Bruce want a permanent relationship? Is he capable of it? If yes, with whom?
    - Incapable of getting that close to someone.
  6. Does Bruce eventually marry or get into a permanent relationship? With whom?
    - No.
  7. Who is Bruce's best friend?
    - Alfred.
  8. Who does Bruce consider his friends (as opposed to family)?
    - The Justice League members, when he meets them

Retirement and Death
  1. Does Bruce ever die (comic book fashion) and come back or temporarily retire the Batman identity? How?
    - Retires the identity. Becomes disillusioned.
  2. How does Bruce permanently die and at what age?
    - Dies, but not 'in battle'.
  3. Does the Batfamily stick with him throughout his life?
    - No.
  4. How does Bruce's story end?
    - I quite like his identity being outed. Otherwise I'm not sure. A quiet death though.
  5. Who replaces him?
    - Damian (I don't think Terry would stick with it).
Story Arcs and Life Events
Choose up to ten story arcs or events that need to happen in Bruce's life and career as Batman.
- Ok (roughly ordered)

The Man Who Falls
Batman Year One
The Long Halloween
Batman: The Man who Laughs
Son of the Demon (vaguely)
Knightfall
The Killing Joke
A Death in the Family
Under the Red Hood
Battle for the Cowl (vaguely)


Short Version
  1. What is the nature of the setting? (Universe with other superheroes, just Batman, realistic, campy, etc.)
    - Comic-book'y, with other superheroes becoming prevalent nearer to the tail-end of Batman's career.
  2. What are Bruce's skills, his proficiency in each, and their focus in the stories?
    - Primarily detective abilities.
  3. How clear is the division between Bruce Wayne and Batman in Bruce's psyche?
    - Not clear.
  4. What rules does Batman follow in his crusade and what his emotional response to it?
    He firmly distinguishes himself from villains with his 'no killing' rule.
  5. What is Bruce's relationship to his villains like?
    - Somewhat co-dependent. He wants to see them reformed and prove the system can work, and that criminality isn't a constant.
  6. What is Bruce's relationship to other superheroes like?
    - Mostly cold.
  7. Is Bruce a father?
    - Yes.
  8. Who is part of the Batfamily, if it exists?
    - Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Jason, Tim, Barbara, Ace (the Dog), Damian.
  9. What is Bruce's character arc/development throughout the story?
    - Becomes steadily more disillusioned at the impact he's having.
  10. Does Bruce have a significant other?
    - No.
  11. How does Bruce die? (Or how does the story end?)
    - Alone, and not dramatically.
  12. Is Batman ultimately a hero or positive figure? Does he generally succeed in his mission?
    - Debatable.


.
 
Well, this might be the most insane OP I've seen on GAF and that's a compliment! Since I'm in bed trying to recover from a pretty bad hangover, I'll give it a shot. Apologies for the broken english.

I'm a pretty big Batman fan. I grew up wanting to be Spider-Man then in my teenage years I was of course very drawn to the "edgier" Batman. Being now 30, Superman is my favorite hero, which was never remotely the case when I was younger. I just like the simplicity and iconic nature of Superman. But I still have a lot of affection for Batman, even though I am more interested in the idea of Gotham City and its inhabitants. Remove Gotham from the equation and Batman wouldn't even be in my top 10 favorite heroes. But with it, he's #2.

Describe what you think Bruce should look like. Or post a picture. Live action, favorite artist rendition, anything goes. (Doesn't have to be an actor that has already portrayed him.)
Tall and lean for me. Basically, Bruce Wayne as drawn by Neal Adams. I don't really like the tights though, I prefer an armored look similar to what he had in Arkham Origins (just that one game though, he looks terrible in the others). Affleck is a fine version of Bruce and I have a lot of affection for Keaton and Bale.

What is the primary driving force for Bruce's crusade?
A strong sense of justice that is partially misguided because of his own demons and mental issues. The death of his parents was a starting point, nothing more. He's over it and never really thinks about it.

What's Bruce's personality like in general?
His true persona is asocial and not talkative but he can show great kindness and empathy. Others have to force themselves into his life otherwise he will not let them in.

How clear is the division between Bruce Wayne and Batman in Bruce's psyche? (If you want to talk about who the real persona is, this is your chance.)
Boring answer: there's the socialite Bruce persona which is entirely fake, the Batman persona which is closer to who he really is but he presents himself as more brutal and ruthless in order to inspire fear. And then there's Bruce in his Bat costume whithout the mask, talking to Alfred or Robin in the Batcave. That's the real persona. He has mental issues but he is not schizophrenic.

Does Bruce enjoy inflicting violence or does he see it as a necessary evil?
No he does not enjoy it, he just does what he thinks is necessary.

What are Bruce's flaws re: personality? His strengths?
Flaws: he wants to do everything by himself and pushes people away from him. He doesn't really see the point in taking care of himself either, he doesn't know his limits. He'd probably be long dead without Alfred. His greatest strength is his empathy for the people of Gotham. I loved that scene in City of Crime where he sat down and drank tea with an old lady telling him about her missing daughter.

Does Bruce suffer from any mental illnesses such as depression, PTSD, OCD, etc.?
I am not very informed about that subject matter but I would say no to PTSD and depression, maybe yes to OCD. He definitely has mental issues but I don't know how I would describe them.

Is Bruce ever suicidal? When?
No, never.

What does Bruce enjoy? Can he actually enjoy anything?
He enjoys Alfred talking shit about him to his face and takes great pride in Dick's accomplishments. He will occasionally watch a movie and enjoy it but someone has to force his hand to watch it.

What does Bruce's character arc look like? Does he have one?
Doesn't have much of a character arc. The biggest development is the arrival of Robin and Bruce morphing into a father figure. Aside from that, he's been the same from the moment he started wearing a mask.

Is Bruce a tragic figure? Can he have a happy ending?
Yes he is tragic and no, he will never have a happy ending. The best he can hope for is Batman Beyond.

Is Bruce ultimately a hero or not?
Yes in the greek mythology sense. He is an exceptional human being who accomplishes exceptional feats. He means well and has done a lot of good for Gotham through Wayne Enterprise and even his Batman persona. But is he morally right? No, imo. I still like him but I don't think his actions can be justifed, he is a criminal.

How smart is Bruce?
I don't like how Marvel and DC actually rank the most intelligent people in their respective worlds so I won't do that but Bruce is definitely a world class genius.

Does he build his own technology?
At first, but then Lucius Fox comes into the picture.

How does he rank against other superheroes in similar skills? (Fighting, intelligence, etc.)
Among the JL he is the most intelligent as well as the second best fighter after Wonder Woman. Of course, his power level is nonexistent but he can hold his own in a fight against most villains.

Should Bruce be able to pull off something like in Tower of Babel/Justice League Doom where he can take down super-powered individuals?
Yes, to a point. I like prep time Batman but there are limits. If Superman actually wanted to defeat him, he'd be dead in a second. But a Tower of Babel scenario is perfectly believable.

How strict is Batman's no-kill rule? Does he have one?
Very strict? That one's tough because it's realistically completely impossible for him to follow that rule but I don't like him killing.

Does Batman use guns? If not in general, are there any exceptions?
Guns are not part of his arsenal but he is not against picking one up during a fight and using it non-lethally.

How far does Batman's violence go?
Broken bones and limbs. He does not want to leave people in a coma or maimed for life.

Given that torture is ineffective, should Batman (or rather his writers) use torture? Or should Batman exist in an alternative universe where torture works for narrative purposes? Would Batman use torture even if it doesn't work?
I guess it's part of his character so I'd go with torture is partially effective in his universe but I'd love to see a story where it doesn't work.

What type of crime does Batman deal with the most?
Mob related crimes although I prefer him as a detective investigating bizarre crimes.

What does Bruce do to fight crime outside of detective work and pursuing criminals?
Invests a lot in Gotham through his company.

How involved is Bruce in his company?
Not very much at all aside from the charity stuff. He's CEO in name only and somebody else (Lucius, Talia, whoever...) is running it.

Who are Bruce's top ten villains?
Joker
Bane
Ra's
Riddler
The rest.

Who are his most dangerous villains?
Joker is by far the most dangerous for Gotham but on a global scale it's Ra's.

How often is Bruce fighting a supervillain versus ordinary crime?
I'd say once a week but time in comics is tough to figure out.

Does Bruce believe in the rehabilitation of his rogues gallery? Regular criminals? Are there exceptions?
Yes he does which is a quality as well as a flaw. He will never give up on people like Two-Face of even Poison Ivy.

Does Arkham have a revolving door?
Yes.

Do any villains "reform"? From Bruce's actions?
A few minor ones maybe but his major rogues will never reform.

Does the Joker ever die? How?
If Batman ever does, the Joker will commit suicide, otherwise no.

What tone do you prefer?
I like Batman because of how flexible he is. I usually prefer a mostly dark Batman but not 90s levels of edginess. But I also love a cartoony Batman like in the Lego games. It depends on the story.

Does Batman exist in a universe with other superheroes (such as Superman) or is he the only one?
Yes there are others but his interactions with them are limited to the Justice League book. He is by himself in his own books until the introduction of Robin.

If Batman exists within the DC universe, how detached is Gotham from it?
Not sure I understand that question.

Do you prefer Batman to be set in a particular time period?
I like the Tim Burton / TAS way of approaching that: it takes place now but looks like a strange mix of old and new technology and aesthetics. The Arkham games do that well too. I like the Nolan films but a realistic Gotham is a wasted opportunity imo.

How supernatural is the setting?
Most of the cases Batman investigates should not be supernatural but I'm not against it once in a while.

Is Gotham the universe's New York City? Where is it located?
I prefer New York to be distinct from Gotham and Metropolis but Gotham is located somewhere on the east coast. It's a gigantic city with 10+ millions of inhabitants.

Does Bruce experience anything related to bats like in the Nolan films?
Yes, I like that part of the origin.

How early does Alfred start working for the Waynes?
About a decade before Bruce is born.

What's Bruce's personality as a child like?
Not necessarily that different from what he will become later. Very lonely and lost in his books.

Does Bruce meet or form relationships with any characters that will end up being important later in his life? (Ex: Tommy who becomes Hush, The Penguin in the Telltale games, etc.)
No. Tommy sucks. Maybe he's friends with Dent before Two-Face but that's it. The Penguin hates the Waynes but does not actually know Bruce.

Is Bruce already obsessed with heroes? (Zorro, The Gray Ghost, Green Lantern [Alan Scott]?)
Not obsessed but he does like the Gray Ghost.

Were Thomas and Martha involved in anything shady?
No, fuck that.

Does Bruce have a relationship with his grandparents?
No. Only family left is Alfred.

What movie does the family watch before the murders?
Zorro.

Are the murders just a random mugging? An assassination?
It has to be just a random mugging. It's more powerful if it's random and Joe Chill is not actually evil but just a small time criminal trying to make a living. Nolan got that right.

Does Jim Gordon meet him that night? Does Leslie Thompkins?
No to Gordon but yes to Leslie.

How early does Bruce decide he wants to be a superhero?
Early teens.

What is his training regiment like before he leaves Gotham?
He studies criminology, psychology and trains his body to peak condition.

How early does he tell Alfred?
That I'm not sure. One of the strangest things to accept in the Batman mythos is the fact that Alfred decides to go through with it at all. I'd say Alfred knows Bruce is going on a dangerous path but doesn't realize how crazy Bruce truly is until it's too late and Bruce leaves Gotham for a decade or more and comes back as Batman.

Does he go to college? If so, where and what does he study?
No, he leaves Gotham before he's 18.

What does he learn and who are his mentors?
Ra's and Ducard as well as that lady from the Gotham Knight animated movie, she was cool.

At what age does Bruce return to Gotham? Is there some sort of catalyst for his return?
28. I like a 20 year gap between his parent's death and his return to Gotham. He only returns because he thinks he's ready to set his plan in motion.

How does Bruce pick a bat to be his symbol?
I like the Mask of the Phantasm origin. He has no symbol at first and it doesn't work and then a bat breaks a window in Wayne manor and he remembers his fear of them.

Does Bruce attempt superheroics before becoming Batman?
Yes, unsuccessfuly.

Does Bruce meet Selina in these attempts?
No.

How long is Bruce in town before he becomes Batman?
6 months max.

Does he meet Andrea Beaumont? Julie Madison? Vikki Vale?
Yes to Andrea, the others are just part of his socialite persona and he doesn't particularly care about them.

Who names Batman and his stuff? (Batcave, Batmobile, etc.) Are the later named in-universe?
He choses the Batman name but that's it, he has no names for the rest of his gear but Alfred starts using the Bat prefix in front of everything to make fun of Bruce and it sticks.

Which of Bruce's villains appear during the the first few years of his career?
It's just the mob at first then Hugo Strange, Red Hood then Joker, Two-Face and the Penguin start to take control of the mob once Falcone is out.

What mistakes does he make?
Oh boy. All the mistakes... The biggest one being letting the Red Hood fall in a vat of acid.

What is his relationship with the GCPD?
He's a criminal to them. Gordon tolerates him at first because of the corruption inside the GCPD and eventually considers him an ally. Montoya is his only other ally in the GCPD and maybe sometimes a reluctant Bullock.

How does he meet other non-Gotham superheroes?
Some kind of big threat that leads to the formation of the Justice League. Darkseid, Starro...

Is Batman a founding member of the Justice League?
Yes.

What is the nature of the public's knowledge of Batman?
They think of him as an urban legend. He is not officially recognized as a member of the Justice League and makes no public appearances with them.

Does Batman ever get his Batfamily? How?
Yes, but it's a smaller Batfamily with the same origins as in the comics: first Grayson who eventually become Nightwing, then Jason who dies and never comes back, followed by Tim Drake. Damian exists but is too young to be Robin yet. Barbara Gordon is never Batgirl, she is shot by the Joker as he attacks Jim Gordon in his home (no rape or torture stuff). She becomes Oracle. Cassandra Cain is Batgirl and never asks for permission from Bruce who eventually accepts her nonetheless. That's it for my ideal Batfamily.

Who is counted in the Batfamliy? In the Wayne family? (Who is legally adopted?)
Dick and Tim are adopted.

Does Dick become Robin? Nightwing? Red Robin? Batman? Some Frank Miller shit? At what ages?
For his age, I'd say 16 as the minimum, anything else is weird.

What is the nature of Bruce's relationship with Dick?
He's a bad father who means well. They are 100% father and son with Alfred as the grandfather.

Does Barbara Gordon become Batgirl? Oracle? Is The Killing Joke canon? Ages for each?
See above. Killing Joke is vaguely canon as Barb does get shot but the Joker does not abuse her. She's in college when that happens.

What is the nature of Bruce's relationship with Babs?
She's his best and most useful ally as well as a good friend and moral compass. He has the utmost respect for her. No sex, come on Bruce Timm.

Do Bruce and Dick still work together as adults?
Yes but Dick is a cop in Bludhaven, so he only helps out in Gotham occasionally.

Does Tim become Robin? Red Robin? Batman? Joker
He becomes Robin with the idea that he is in training and that he will eventually adopt his own persona like Nightwing.

Does Cassandra Cain become Batgirl? Black Bat? Batwoman/Batman?
Batgirl and eventually Batwoman. If Batman ever dies, she'll be the one who becomes the Dark Knight in charge of Gotham.

Does Stephanie Brown become Spoiler? Batgirl? Robin? Nightwing?
Does Helena Bertinelli become Huntress? Batwoman?
Do Kathy Kane and Betty Kane become Batwoman and Batgirl?

These three don't exist for me. I like them but I don't want Gotham to be too crowded.

Is Damian born? Who raises him? Does he become Robin? Batman?
He was raised for ten years by Talia before going to live with Bruce. I like him but don't really now what I'd do with him. Maybe he should move to the West Coast as an adult and have wacky adventures with his best pal Superboy.

Does Carrie Kelly become Robin? Catgirl? :/
Thats an alternate future, like Terry McGuinnis.

Does the "We are Robin" stuff exist?
Nope.

Is Selina part of the family or a rogue?
Both?

Who does Bruce consider to be the heir to the Batman title? (Can be multiple.)
He sees Dick as his only true heir but is happy that he has found his own identity and purpose in life. He slowly realizes that Cass is the only one who has what it takes to actually succeed him. Yes, that's my fanfic.

Who is (are) Bruce's romantic soulmate(s)? (Gotham is a valid answer, I guess.)
Well, Gotham then. He genuinely loved Andrea but that's it. He has love and affection for Selina, Talia and maybe a few others but is not even remotely interested in a relationship at that point in his life.

Is Bruce only into women?
I guess. I wouldn't be against him being bi but as I said, he's just not interested in relationships once he becomes Batman.

Does Bruce actually sleep with the women he "wines and dines" for his playboy persona?
Sometimes. He has needs.

Does Bruce eventually marry or get into a permanent relationship? With whom?
Nope. He dies alone =(

Who is Bruce's best friend?
Superman.

Who does Bruce consider his friends (as opposed to family)?
Gordon, Superman, Diana, Lucius Fox, Martian Manhunter and maybe Barry Allen? Also Harvey Dent before the accident.

Does Bruce ever die (comic book fashion) and come back or temporarily retire the Batman identity? How?
Nah, no fake comic-book death that leads to a resurrection.

How does Bruce permanently die and at what age?
He dies in his late 40s after about 20 years as Batman. I don't know how he dies but let's just say that the Joker has to die at the same time and of course it should be a heroic death. He dies on the streets of Gotham, surrounded by Gothamites,as he should.

Does the Batfamily stick with him throughout his life?
There's friction but at the very end they're all there for him.

Who replaces him?
CASS!!!
Dick, Tim and maybe Damian give it a try but realize that their destinies lie elsewhere.
An adult Damian could become head of Wayne Enterprise and support Cass in her war on crime.

Choose up to ten story arcs or events that need to happen in Bruce's life and career as Batman.
Geez...
Year One
Long Halloween
Creation of the Joker
Dick Grayson / Robin
Meets the Justice League
Ra's and Talia Al Ghul show up and Damian is conceived
Dick Becomes Nightwing. Jason shows up for 10 seconds and dies
The Killing Joke and the birth of Oracle
Tim become the default Robin
No Man's Land with first appearance of Cass

Well, this nerdy endeavour took a while! I hope my answers are entertaining. My hangover seems mostly gone now so this insane post worked out perfectly for me.
 

Ahasverus

Member
Well, I don't know if it exists, but I like my batman more "bat" and less "man" to his enemies. Like, I want to think they don't know him, they fear thim, that he's a shadow, a demon that lurks in the dark, that his cape looks like a shadow making him indistinguishable, that kind of ultra ninja, scary Batman.

Now, Bruce Wayne, I don't like the overly edgy and grumpy versions of him (I'm looking at you, Arkham games) I want him to be normal, a bit serious, but still capable of smiling. I think the Nolan movies nailed him.

I like the batfamily characters, but I kinda find them out of character for Batman. He wouldn't ever risk a child to fight super natural foes or guys like the Joker, that's just foolish.
 

shingi70

Banned
Not really surprising, it the amount of people who want grim realistic Batman is a bit disappointing. If not because I love the League and the Batfamily, going uber realistic takes quite a few of his rouges out of the equation.
 

Alienous

Member
I like the batfamily characters, but I kinda find them out of character for Batman. He wouldn't ever risk a child to fight super natural foes or guys like the Joker, that's just foolish.

Yeah, I think the concept of Robin requires Dick Grayson to be older. I actually see it a lot like how it was depicted in Batman Forever:

Dick Grayson is ~15 years old (he's 16-17 in Batman Forever) when his parents are killed. Bruce Wayne opts to take care of him, because he sees in Dick Grayson the same pain he had at that age. Dick discovers Bruce's identity, as he's the only person other than Alfred he's let into his life. Bruce tries to direct Dick away from exacting murderous vengeance, ends up becoming a mentor. Dick Grayson teams up with an initially reluctant Batman.

Then, when Dick Grayson grows away from Batman, Bruce finds Jason Todd and that's a demonstration of why Batman having a sidekick is a bad idea. Dick Grayson got by because of the discipline and athleticism afforded to him by his upbringing as part of the Flying Graysons, and Jason Todd is just a street urchin.

I'm not really sure Bruce would have a Robin after Jason Todd's death.
 

Playsage

Member
My idealised version of Batman is basically a touched up TAS version that comprehend some of the most iconic batman moment in its canon.

I'm too lazy to answer that list.
 

Ahasverus

Member
Yeah, I think the concept of Robin requires Dick Grayson to be older. I actually see it a lot like how it was depicted in Batman Forever:

Dick Grayson is ~15 years old (he's 16-17 in Batman Forever) when his parents are killed. Bruce Wayne opts to take care of him, because he sees in Dick Grayson the same pain he had at that age. Dick discovers Bruce's identity, as he's the only person other than Alfred he's let into his life. Bruce tries to direct Dick away from exacting murderous vengeance, ends up becoming a mentor. Dick Grayson teams up with an initially reluctant Batman.

Then, when Dick Grayson grows away from Batman, Bruce finds Jason Todd and that's a demonstration of why Batman having a sidekick is a bad idea. Dick Grayson got by because of the discipline and athleticism afforded to him by his upbringing as part of the Flying Graysons, and Jason Todd is just a street urchin.

I'm not really sure Bruce would have a Robin after Jason Todd's death.
Nailed it.
 
I like the batfamily characters, but I kinda find them out of character for Batman. He wouldn't ever risk a child to fight super natural foes or guys like the Joker, that's just foolish.

One of the reasons Return of the Joker is so good is that it shows why having a child sidekick is a pretty bad idea. To quote a review:

The moment that Batman recruits a child soldier for his war on crime, his psychology ceases to make sense. Bruce knows about loss at a young age. He knows what it is to give up your childhood in service of an ideal. He knows the risk. There’s no way Bruce should even consider allowing anybody under the age of sixteen to do what he does. If he does, there are two possible reasons, and both of which “break” the suspension of disbelief. Either none of his villains are a threat to a kid, in which case they aren’t a threat to him – so why should we care? – or Bruce simply doesn’t care about the safety of the kids around him – which makes him an outright villain.

As an adult, Tim Drake seems justifiably bitter about everything, observing that the world as he imagined it did not match up to the world that actually existed. “Fun and games,” he mumbles. “Boy wonder playing hero. Fighting off bad guys and no one ever gets…” Of course, a world where no one ever gets killed would be the only world where a teenage hero would be acceptable as a sidekick, but Batman doesn’t live in that world. The events of Return of the Joker force Bruce to confront that, forcing him to admit, “I had no right to force this life on you or anyone else.”
 

Slayven

Member
I always thought Morrison's JLA Batman was perfect.

It's just folks that don't read talking about "Preptime Batman" that make it bad
 
This was the definitive Batman for a good portion of my like.

However it has really started to fall for me, Bruce getting worse as a character as the DCAU went on is a major factor.

Comic stuff is so give and take only thing I can take for sure is Batdad, which isn't represented enough at all
That family movie page still pisses me of to this day, yup just forget about that daughter were adopting Bruce. Its okay Bruce DC forgot as well.

I wouldn't mind a stable relationship either, im over the whole back and forth and identity dramas.
 
Robin is a tough concept to crack these days but he / she can work really well with the right approach. But it's no wonder (pun intended) that the films don't want to bother with Robin.

As it has been said, Robin needs to be at least 16 to work otherwise it's just too creepy. Which is why I'm not crazy about Damian since he's supposed to be 10 I think. As for Bats accepting Tim after Jason's death, it can work in the same way that it worked with Carrie in TDKR. Tim and Carrie are just Gotham kids that decide to become Robin on their own and there's not much that Bruce can do to prevent that. Once he realizes how good they are he decides to train them so that they don't repeat Jason's mistakes.

But there are too many Robins. It should just be Dick, Jason and Tim. Otherwise, the Batman timeline becomes too insane.
 
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