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[Dreams-Visions]

Suddenly, I think a conversation about Dutch/Euro colonialism and its devastating impact on sub-Saharan Africa is both appropriate and necessary.

This shit isn't a coincidence. If you young Dutch want real answers, that's probably where you want to start.

 

[Alx]

Lots of posters have been trying to make it clear that Black Peter is not actually a black person, but rather a white person covered in soot, yes? I'm sure that's the truth, so can one of you clarify the significance of his moor-like clothing, red lips and hair? Other than simply being holdovers from his previous, acknowledged-as-racist origins, I haven't seen any explanations.

That's exactly what it is, holdovers from his previous origins. Except that since it's an old tradition, the costume and physical features are probably parts of the character, so it's hard to change them, just like you wouldn't remove Nikolaus beard or miter.

 

[TheOddOne]

"Zwarte Piet" = "Black Peter". It would be hard for him not to be black when it's in his name...

You can just say Peter.

 

[Half and half]

My fam and I (American mixed-black family) lived in The Netherlands for a while when I was a child. I didn't realize Zwarte Piet had racist origins. When I found out a few years ago, I asked my older bro about it. At first he said Piet was black from soot. I pressed further and then he brought up the demon story.

I kept challenging him and he finally said something like, "Look, those Dutch people treated us a lot better than those good ol' boys here.". He went from the usual defenses of Zwarte Piet to telling me their country is really not that racist.

I'm just sharing our experience. Everyone has their own opinion of what they consider offensive, and I respect that.

 

[Htown]

Why shouldn't the Dutch be allowed to dress up as a black person?
Because of historical events?

You think "white Europeans" were (and are!) never used as slaves?
You think Spartacus was someone who worked on the cotton fields in Mississippi?

Oh, awesome. This old nugget.

Zwarte Piet is simply a wacky assistant of Sinterklaas.
He's having a blast and kids love him too. They don't ask if it's a white guy with soot, or a real black person. They don't care.

Then why not make him look like a person covered in soot instead of a caricatured black person?

In this thread, it's been made clear that the character has racist origins, but that supposedly he's been retconned into a white guy covered in soot instead of a blackface caricature of a black person. If that's so, why is it so important that the blackface appearance remains?

 

[Xeke]

"glaring blackface" has no meaning outside the US (or at least it has none in most of Europe).
And the character being black is what defines him. Even if the origins are politically incorrect, there are things you can't change without destroying the character. That's the reason why some people tried to change the story and explanations, to remove the "incorrect" part, but in the end Black Peter needs to be black.

Then find some black people.

 

[Alx]

You can just say Peter.

And you can just remove Nikolaus sanctity, or make him a woman, or just move the celebration to may... but why would you do that if everybody is fine as things are ? (and before you mention that Americans are not fine with it, I'll stress out that it's a Dutch tradition, and not one they're trying to celebrate anywhere else than their own country)

Then find some black people.

There's nothing wrong with white people impersonating black people here. That's the main misunderstanding from people crying out "blackface".
Besides if the new accepted story is that he's black from soot, there's no reason to "use" black people any more, unless you want to get back to the black servant idea.

 

[KidGalactus]

Nederlanders: Real touchy about losing their racist cartoons.

 

[Kiraly]

Then find some black people.

There are enough volunteers playing Zwarte Piet that are black.

 

[akira28]

no one is trying to take anything away from anyone. But people that aren't so attached to it as a tradition, and don't see it as something that children simply must participate in, might have a different opinion about how integral a man in blackface is to the fabric of existence.

Go full Pete. Make a public decree, that only black people are allowed to play Pete. They must be extremely well paid, but also pressed into service. Give them child welfare powers, and full legal immunity in Spain and Portugal. Then I will not only change my position, I will respect the power of Zwarte Piet.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Oafish caricatures are racist now? But seriously, I think it should be up to the minorities being represented to decide.

 

[Supermanisdead]

Somehow when Netherlands developed their own racist ass minstrel shows, they never stopped. Now it's "tradition" and people are desperately trying to change his history when we all know it's origins and implications. If you have to change the fact that he was a devil captured from Africa and works as Santa's slave now, why not just remove the whole damn character.

 

[Daeda]

Lots of posters have been trying to make it clear that Black Peter is not actually a black person, but rather a white person covered in soot, yes? I'm sure that's the truth, so can one of you clarify the significance of his moor-like clothing, red lips and hair? Other than simply being holdovers from his previous, acknowledged-as-racist origins, I haven't seen any explanations.

Quite simply because he's a children's figure and while children are entirely unaware of any deeper meaning of the portrayal (such as the racism) they will notice the sudden change in visual appearance. Changing the visual appearance cant be done year over year, because it breaks make belief. And there simply is no public necessity felt in The Netherlands to change it over the long term.

By the way, I would even say that the stereotypical portrayal of Zwarte Piet, while historically a racist stereotype, also serves as a means to separate him from black people. I know that sounds weird and counter intuitive, but this portrayal is only seen in context of Zwarte Piet and is thus less associated with black people in general (by children). At least, that is how I'd say I experienced this as a kid.

The bottom line is that our culture doesnt have a lot of racial sensitivity (at least compared to the us) and the whole concept of racism is thus not understood by children and wouldnt even begin to cross their mind with respect to Zwarte Piet. Sure, over time we should probably move to a less sensitive portrayal, but its not something that is of high priority right now nor is it as simple as some suggest it to be.

 

[Stridone]

No one in the Netherlands intends for Zwarte Piet to be racist and the kids who love the tradition don't view them as slaves or inferior people. So you oversensitive crybabies can have your month of whining and pretending to be offended again, we're not gonna change this tradition anytime soon. Piss off.

Signed,

Every sane person residing in The Netherlands (that includes the many black people here who simply enjoy the tradition without always looking for non-existant malign undertones)

 

[Metrotab]

Somehow when Netherlands developed their own racist ass minstrel shows, they never stopped. Now it's "tradition" and people are desperately trying to change his history when we all know it's origins and implications. If you have to change the fact that he was a devil captured from Africa and works as Santa's slave now, why not just remove the whole damn character.

Because he's a part of the ingrained folklore, and in the Flemish/Dutch understanding of the character he is not considered offensive. Since there is cultural motivation to preserve the folklore, Zwarte Piet won't change.

 

[Viewt]

That's exactly what it is, holdovers from his previous origins. Except that since it's an old tradition, the costume and physical features are probably parts of the character, so it's hard to change them, just like you wouldn't remove Nikolaus beard or miter.

And I think that's where we're disagreeing. Those in favor of keeping with the current look want to preserve its tradition regardless of how it's perceived by others, while those not in favor want its traces of racism removed outright.

I see where you're coming from - removing Santa's beard or signature red-and-white clothes here in the States would likely be seen as similarly terrible. I think the key difference is that Santa doesn't get his trademark look from any nefarious origins (to my knowledge, at least - if it turns out his hat is made of fetuses or something, I'm in the dark about it).

There's a long history of entertainment in America being shunned and disavowed after history's shown it to be racist. Plenty of cartoons, movies and songs are no longer held in high esteem due to their content. So maybe for us, it's a lot easier to just say, "Fuck it. Chuck it outta here," while the Dutch are a lot more resistent to removing parts of their shared culture.

 

[Log4Girlz]

No one in the Netherlands intends for Zwarte Piet to be racist and the kids who love the tradition don't view them as slaves or inferior people. So you oversensitive crybabies can have your month of whining and pretending to be offended again, we're not gonna change this tradition anytime soon. Piss off.

Signed,

Every sane person residing in The Netherlands (that includes the many black people here who simply enjoy the tradition without always looking for non-existant malign undertones)

Why are Zwarte Piet's lips cherry red?

 

[Htown]

No one in the Netherlands intends for Zwarte Piet to be racist and the kids who love the tradition don't view them as slaves or inferior people. So you oversensitive crybabies can have your month of whining and pretending to be offended again, we're not gonna change this tradition anytime soon. Piss off.

Signed,

Every sane person residing in The Netherlands (that includes the many black people here who simply enjoy the tradition without always looking for non-existant malign undertones)

I don't know, telling black people to shut the fuck up about being offended at something originally created to be racist seems pretty malign to me.

 

[Metrotab]

In this thread, it's been made clear that the character has racist origins, but that supposedly he's been retconned into a white guy covered in soot instead of a blackface caricature of a black person. If that's so, why is it so important that the blackface appearance remains?

Because blackface is part of Zwarte Piet. And blackface by itself is not considered offensive by the populace at large, when it concerns Zwarte Piet.

 

[Supermanisdead]

No one in the Netherlands intends for Zwarte Piet to be racist and the kids who love the tradition don't view them as slaves or inferior people. So you oversensitive crybabies can have your month of whining and pretending to be offended again, we're not gonna change this tradition anytime soon. Piss off.

Signed,

Every sane person residing in The Netherlands (that includes the many black people here who simply enjoy the tradition without always looking for non-existant malign undertones)

Hey black people, shutup and stop being offended by our blatant racist caricatures!

Because blackface is part of Zwarte Piet. And blackface by itself is not considered offensive by the populace at large, when it concerns Zwarte Piet.

Nope. Blackface is offensive even without the US historical context. What part of caricaturing another race is okay?

 

[hym]

The entire thing looks fucked up to me, I'm not even sure which part is worse, a blackface assistant or a Roman Catholic Bishop presented as an idol for children. Kids of all faiths are free to participate of course but all of a sudden a guy dressed up like the Pope is the next best thing to Batman.

Then there is the gift giving aspect, kids are told they will get presents if they were good or nothing (traditionally a beating) when they were naughty. Real nice for kids of parents who can't afford to buy expensive toys, the next day they go to school, everyone boasting about their gifts and the poor kids end up thinking they are somehow punished or less deserving than their buddies because some Holy immortal Saint who is glorified everywhere decided so.

 

[Htown]

Because blackface is part of Zwarte Piet. And blackface by itself is not considered offensive by the populace at large, when it concerns Zwarte Piet.

It wasn't considered offensive by the populace at large when it was going on in America either. You saying blackface wasn't racist here either?

 

[Onemic]

Because blackface is part of Zwarte Piet. And blackface by itself is not considered offensive by the populace at large, when it concerns Zwarte Piet.

Now is that because the population is ignorant to what it really means or that it actually is an inoffensive character?

 

[zaxon]

If the contemporary representation of the character is overwhelmingly positive, is it worth continuing to judge it by the racist iconography in its history?

In other words, is adhering to standards of racism more important than having, in a primarily white society, a black character that is associated with happiness and benevolence? Which of those contributes more to an open and tolerant society?

Honest question. I would think the character would do more good than bad, but I am neither Dutch nor black.

 

[Metrotab]

The entire thing looks fucked up to me, I'm not even sure which part is worse, a blackface assistant or a Roman Catholic Bishop presented as an idol for children. Kids of all faiths are free to participate of course but all of a sudden a guy dressed up like the Pope is the next best thing to Batman.

Then there is the gift giving aspect, kids are told they will get presents if they were good or nothing (traditionally a beating) when they were naughty. Real nice for kids of parents who can't afford to buy expensive toys, the next day they go to school everyone boasting about their gifts and the poor kids end up thinking they are somehow punished or less deserving than their buddies because some Holy immortal Saint that is glorified everywhere decided so.

The Roman Catholic part is very underplayed (both Flemish and Dutch culture is highly secularised), and it's not exactly weird for Christian symbols to emerge in European folklore in the first place, due to that religion's massive influence on the continent.

The second argument isn't very different from Christmas and Santa Claus in the States.

 

[TheOddOne]

And you can just remove Nikolaus sanctity, or make him a woman, or just move the celebration to may... but why would you do that if everybody is fine as things are ? (and before you mention that Americans are not fine with it, I'll stress out that it's a Dutch tradition, and not one they're trying to celebrate anywhere else than their own country)

Who says that everything has to be changed? A tradition still has basic principles, like the idea and the date. Nobody is discussing about changing that and it should not be changed. Something as changing blackface isn’t really that big of a deal. Why even hold onto that? It is not like the blackface makes Sinterklaas.

 

[Kiraly]

Nope. Blackface is offensive even without the US historical context. What part of caricaturing another race is okay?

Offense is taken, not given. You find it offensive, the Dutch don't.

 

[Metrotab]

It wasn't considered offensive by the populace at large when it was going on in America either. You saying blackface wasn't racist here either?

Everyone in America understood minstrel shows depicted black people.
Everyone in Flanders/Netherlands understands Zwarte Piet no longer represents black people.

Key difference.

 

[Htown]

In other words, is adhering to standards of racism more important than having, in a primarily white society, a black figure that is associated with happiness and benevolence? Which of those contributes more to an open and tolerant society?

Do you think this is okay?

Happiness, benevolence, even heaven itself!

 

[Y-Z]

Hey black people, shutup and stop being offended by our blatant racist caricatures!

Nope. Blackface is offensive even without the US historical context. What part of caricaturing another race is okay?

The majority of black people living here (the netherlands) does not mind Sinterklaas and even celebrates it. It's also celebrated in Curaceau and the dutch Antilles where a majority of the population is black.So no it's not the black people complaining, there are just some extremely over sensitive organisations that complain.

 

[Htown]

The majority of black people living here (the netherlands) does not mind Sinterklaas and even celebrates it. It's also celebrated in Curaceau and the dutch Antilles where a majority of the population is black.So no it's not the black people complaining, there are just some extremely over sensitive organisations that complain.

which organizations?

 

[Metrotab]

Now is that because the population is ignorant to what it really means or that it actually is an inoffensive character?

It's because the populace has a different understanding of what qualifies as offensive. Blackface has a thorough link to minstrel shows and its offensive content in America. Blackface here is uniquely linked to Zwarte Piet, which is not considered offensive in its modern form by Flemish/Dutch people.

 

[Y-Z]

which organizations?

I just know Nederland wordt beter. They are the one looking for media attention every year.

 

[Big Baybee]

Everyone in America understood minstrel shows depicted black people.
Everyone in Flanders/Netherlands understands Zwarte Piet no longer represents black people.

Key difference.

How does he no longer represent black people?

 

[Viewt]

Someone mentioned earlier that there was an outrage among the Dutch populace over Black Peter being represented by multiple colors recently rather than his signature black. Can one of you elaborate on what happened?

I'm curious if this outrage was due to a perceived "giving in" by organizers to appease protesters or if the concept of a non-black Peter is itself offensive to the Dutch.

 

[Daeda]

The entire thing looks fucked up to me, I'm not even sure which part is worse, a blackface assistant or a Roman Catholic Bishop presented as an idol for children. Kids of all faiths are free to participate of course but all of a sudden a guy dressed up like the Pope is the next best thing to Batman.

The fact that the Netherlands is a Calvinist Protestant country and Roman Catholicism was usually frowned upon (formally the catholic church was banned from 1580 to 1853 and Catholics were seen as second class citizens) show that the Dutch arent that bothered by religious or historic origins..

 

[Metrotab]

Nope. Blackface is offensive even without the US historical context. What part of caricaturing another race is okay?

The part where it doesn't caricature another race anymore in its modern understanding.

 

[Metrotab]

How does he no longer represent black people?

Because in our shared cultural understanding, Zwarte Piet is not a black person. He is, simply, a Zwarte Piet.

 

[Goldrusher]

The world would be a better place if every country was as free as Belgium and Holland.
We can say and do whatever we want and nobody gives a shit.
No political correctness, no censorship, no fear of lawsuits.

 

[Arjen]

I think 90% of all dutch folks have no idea what Blackface is tbh.
And i'm having a real hard time being lectured about racism by Americans after what happened after the last election.

 

[Xeke]

It's because the populace has a different understanding of what qualifies as offensive. Blackface has a thorough link to minstrel shows and its offensive content in America. Blackface here is uniquely linked to Zwarte Piet, which is not considered offensive in its modern form by Flemish/Dutch people.

We live in a global world now and if we're allowed to be disgusted by traditions in Saudi Arabia we're equally allowed to be disgusted at traditions in the Netherlands and hope they change.

The world would be a better place if every country was as free as Belgium and Holland.
We can say and do whatever we want and nobody gives a shit.
No political correctness, no censorship, no fear of lawsuits.

So it's cool if come over with swastikas and start calling the holocaust a crock of shit left and right?

 

[Stridone]

Someone mentioned earlier that there was an outrage among the Dutch populace over Black Peter being represented by multiple colors recently rather than his signature black. Can one of you elaborate on what happened?

I'm curious if this outrage was due to a perceived "giving in" by organizers to appease protesters or if the concept of a non-black Peter is itself offensive to the Dutch.

If there was any outrage (haven't heard of it) it was definitely because they conceded ground to a ridiculous brand of political correctness.

Hey black people, shutup and stop being offended by our blatant racist caricatures!

Being offended on the internet over perceived racist undertones in a happy children's tradition that no one considers to be racially motivated. Keep fighting the good fight bro, you guys are a beacon for the civil rights movement.

 

[Supermanisdead]

The part where it doesn't caricature another race anymore in its modern understanding.

Does he still paint his skin? Does he still have absurdly large and bright red lips? Does he still dress that way for the amusement of others? Does he still lose his entire character by not being in blackface?

The world would be a better place if every country was as free as Belgium and Holland.
We can say and do whatever we want and nobody gives a shit.
No political correctness, no censorship, no fear of lawsuits.

Everyone free to be racist. What a utopia.

 

[Metrotab]

We live in a global world now and if we're allowed to be disgusted by traditions in Saudi Arabia we're equally allowed to be disgusted at traditions in the Netherlands and hope they change.

Why is your understanding of Zwarte Piet better than the shared Flemish/Dutch understanding?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Being offended on the internet over perceived racist undertones in a happy children's tradition that no one considers to be racially motivated. Keep fighting the good fight bro, you guys are a beacon for the civil rights movement.

Did you read the thread??

 

[Metrotab]

Does he still paint his skin? Does he still have absurdly large and bright red lips? Does he still dress that way for the amusement of others?

Yes. Yes. I guess.

Nevertheless he is not a caricature of black people. He was born out of one, but modern Zwarte Piet has been completely divorced of that historic origin.

He has painted skin and red lips because that's how Zwarte Piet looks like.

EDIT: You added a question. No, but he wouldn't be Zwarte Piet, as the abstract idea in our culture, anymore.

 

[DrFunk]

Did you read the thread??

I don't think he can answer now. lol

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I don't think he can answer now. lol

Oh damn.

 

[Viewt]

I think 90% of all dutch folks have no idea what Blackface is tbh.
And i'm having a real hard time being lectured about racism by Americans after what happened after the last election.

I think that's actually why you'd find most Americans here to be less in favor of Black Peter. Racism is a real and terrible problem in America, and so Americans who oppose it are likely more sensitive to it worldwide than the average Dutch person, for example.

That's why the open dialogue here is so important. Not so anyone from The Netherlands can be lectured (because there's no point in talking down to someone - it's just going to make them more righteously indignant), but rather so that we non-Dutch can learn more about this tradition before we cast judgement or acceptance on it.

Personally, I'm not a fan. But then, I've never been one for preserving tradition (regardless of how it's been morphed over the years to lessen its racist overtones), so casting something like this out isn't a big deal to me. But it clearly is to the Dutch, where not only is this a beloved tradition, but the context itself is very different.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Yes. Yes. I guess.

Nevertheless he is not a caricature of black people. He was born out of one, but modern Zwarte Piet has been completely divorced of that historic origin.

He has painted skin and red lips because that's how Zwarte Piet looks like.

EDIT: You added a question. No, but he wouldn't be Zwarte Piet, as the abstract idea in our culture, anymore.

So Zwarte Piet is what exactly? Is he human? If so, what kind of human can he be described as?