Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

Status
Not open for further replies.
While I'm waiting for my CMVS to be built I'm using a PC with soft15khz to get it to properly output a signal/resolution matching the original hardware. The CRT is a Sony BVM-20F1U.

8y55Eal.jpg
Click to expand...

The picture gives an idea of the colors and sharpness this display offers. The diagonal lines and other artefacts are only visible in pictures.

It's the best quality I've seen on a CRT so far! It's unfortunate there is a (minor) scratch on the screen.
 
sixteen-bit said:
^Does surugaya take international orders again? I've heard conflicting reports.
Click to expand...
Well I just sent an order for some assorted items, so I'll let you know when I hear back. EDIT: They sent a notice saying that they've suspended international orders temporarily and are planning to resume them at an unspecified date.

Repost: Anyone know where to find male-to-male D-terminal cables? Preferably 6ft/2m in length or so, rated for 1080p? The cheapest I can find at the moment are like $20 before shipping.
 
Some new toys. I've got to wait for a replacement PLA chip, but as soon as it's here I'll get a chance to check everything out.
QyD46Zn.jpg

ThM6fmT.jpg
Click to expand...

Ignore all the crap in the shot. I'm working on a ton of stuff currently.

Also I just sent them another message about that replacement panel Mr. Blatt. As soon as I hear back we'll be ready to go. I do have a few more things that'll be finished up by the end of the week, but it's totally free after that.
 
Just got my new PVM-2130QM sitting on the floor, running the 240p test suite!

It's huge compared to my PVM-14L2, but I don't think the picture is as pretty. I definitely need to get in there and adjust the pots, but maybe it's just the size that means it isn't going to look as good.

Would be good to hear from others who have compared 14" and 21" PVMs. I know this one is older too (hence the lack of service menu, and analog adjustment inside with pots) but I just feel like the image should be better.
 
My 20'' PVMs actually look quite a bit better than my 14'' ones. It could be a bunch of different things though. Hours used, needs calibration, etc. Just be very careful messing with the insides if you're not sure what to do. That shit is dangerous.
 
Thanks baphomet. It will need adjusting to get the screen centred, but aside from what I'm not sure what I'll need to change. It looks good from a distance but not so good up close. Could be dirty screen but it looks blurry in patches and the colours look a little bleedy, particularly the whites seem to have hints of red in them. It's slight but noticeable for me up close. It just doesn't seem razor sharp like my 14L2, but then again I have no idea how old it is. The 14L2 says 2003 on the back and had little use before I owned it, any idea what year the 2130QM came about? I'm guessing at least 1990s.

My Dad's friend works with TVs so when I adjust I think I'll buy him a box of beers and get his help. I used to work in his shop as a kid and I always remember he made me stay like 2m away from the open CRTs because of arcing. I was terrified, lol.
 
Can Famicom and Super Famicom be RGB modded? I'm thinking of selling my RGB NES and SNES Mini (rgb modded) and pooling that cash towards FC/SFC and rgb modding those (if I can).
 
GayForMaster said:
Can Famicom and Super Famicom be RGB modded? I'm thinking of selling my RGB NES and SNES Mini (rgb modded) and pooling that cash towards FC/SFC and rgb modding those (if I can).
Click to expand...

SNES/Super Famicom consoles (apart from the Mini/Jr model) support RGB natively without modding. You just need a scart cable.

Famicoms though? oh boy, you're in for a world of debt
 
richisawesome said:
SNES/Super Famicom consoles (apart from the Mini/Jr model) support RGB natively without modding. You just need a scart cable.

Famicoms though? oh boy, you're in for a world of debt
Click to expand...

Can you explain how I'm in a world of debt? I paid a fuck load to RGB my NES as well haha, is it the same I guess?
 
The NESRGB board is Famicom-compatible. I think the process is fairly similar to a top-loading NES.

EDIT: According to the official website, installing it on an original Famicom is possible but somewhat more difficult. It's easier on an AV Famicom.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
The NESRGB board is Famicom-compatible. I think the process is fairly similar to a top-loading NES.

EDIT: According to the official website, installing it on an original Famicom is possible but somewhat more difficult. It's easier on an AV Famicom.
Click to expand...

Alright, nevermind then I guess. Gonna keep my US consoles. Can I ask another question?

I'm wanting the XRGB-framemeister soon but I'm not sure what to buy to be able to test it with everything I have.

If I wanted to feed my framemeister 480p consoles (DC/GCN/PS2), would I buy this?

And I have a whole bunch of SCART cables and the banbridge SCART switch box, I'm supposed to buy an RGB in adapter I believe since the one that comes with the framemeister only supports Japanese RGB cables right? I can't find the RGB in adapter in solarisjapan, any idea where to pick that up?
 
Superblatt said:
I am dying to get my top loader rgb modded. I'm waiting in line with bapho...patience is killing me.
Click to expand...
Me too! :D Don't worry buddy, we'll be living the dream soon

Also... I have an odd issue. There is a small tear in the protective film on my PVM. No biggie I guess, I'll just have to live with it or dare to peel it off one day. The odd thing is I see something else that looks exactly like a tear, but it appears to be entirely under the glass. I shined a flashlight on it and it casts a shadow. What the hell could that be?
 
I'm in the process of building up my retro game room right now and this thread intrigues me.

Before I read through the mountains of information in this thread, am I going to be aiming to get everything on a nice RGB PC CRT?

I've been holding on to a decent one for a decade now and I've got an NES, SNES, PC-Engine and Genesis I want to have setup here.
 
PixyJunket said:
I'm in the process of building up my retro game room right now and this thread intrigues me.

Before I read through the mountains of information in this thread, am I going to be aiming to get everything on a nice RGB PC CRT?

I've been holding on to a decent one for a decade now and I've got an NES, SNES, PC-Engine and Genesis I want to have setup here.
Click to expand...

What specific model set is it and what type of connections does it take? Those will be important first steps so we can help.
 
Superblatt said:
What specific model set is it and what type of connections does it take? Those will be important first steps so we can help.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure of the model (it's in the garage), but it has a VGA connection.

Primarily, I'm interested in getting the most out of my NES, that's where most of my money is.

Once that's taken care of, I can cater to other systems in due time.
 
PixyJunket said:
I'm in the process of building up my retro game room right now and this thread intrigues me.

Before I read through the mountains of information in this thread, am I going to be aiming to get everything on a nice RGB PC CRT?

I've been holding on to a decent one for a decade now and I've got an NES, SNES, PC-Engine and Genesis I want to have setup here.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the thread.

First of all, are you talking about a VGA-based computer CRT? They are not really suited for retro consoles. For best possible results, you want either an upscaler, or a pro broadcast monitor like a Sony PVM or BVM. Pretty much everyone in this thread has either one or the other (or both).

EDIT: You can use an upscaler on your VGA monitor. It has to support VGA out though.
 
If you need to hook up your systems to a VGA CRT, then you want either an older XRGB (XRGB3, XRGB2+, XRGB2) or something like Crafty+Mech's linedoubler, whenever he gets around to releasing it and if it turns out as good as I'm hoping it does. If you also want the versatility of upscaling to a flatscreen HDTV, then you're going to want an XRGB3 specifically. Any of the others would likely do if you're strictly interested in 640x480 VGA CRT and nothing else.

You can find these devices at Solaris Japan, eBay, and Yahoo Japan Auctions via a third-party courier service. It can take a while to find a deal.

Once you've got the display and the upscaler taken care of, then you need to hunt down cables and, for some consoles, RGB mods. Most models of the SNES and Genesis can do RGB out of the box; you just need the right cables. PC-Engine requires a mod; supposedly it's not too difficult for someone well-versed in RGB mods and is comparable to what would need to be done on an N64. (I wouldn't know for sure, though.)The NES takes considerably more work, but the NESRGB board that was released last year simplifies the process quite a bit (but is still expensive).

antibolo said:
First of all, are you talking about a VGA-based computer CRT? They are not really suited for retro consoles.
Click to expand...
I'll take my VGA monitor over your flatscreen, thanks.
 
IrishNinja said:
tsk tsk, this CRT crowd~
Click to expand...
You have no idea how much it delights me to see someone else pursuing, or at the very least considering, the CRT monitor route.

Every single time the Framemeister is lauded in this and other threads, I die a little more inside. So many of you lost souls would rather stare at a game than play it, as far as I can tell. I love you guys, but I wish your nerves were as sharp as your eyes.

Why doesn't Tain post in these threads? He'd have my back.
 
i dunno, six four...links in the OP say the min's the best! i understand you robots from the future cannot deal with the mighty 1.5 ms of lag on 8" screens at temperatures above 73F, but those of us who aren't actually snatchers seem to manage
 
Sixfortyfive said:
You have no idea how much it delights me to see someone else pursuing, or at the very least considering, the CRT monitor route.

Every single time the Framemeister is lauded in this and other threads, I die a little more inside. So many of you lost souls would rather stare at a game than play it, as far as I can tell. I love you guys, but I wish your nerves were as sharp as your eyes.

Why doesn't Tain post in these threads? He'd have my back.
Click to expand...

I found a 14" pvm 3 months ago and there is no turning back. My LCD is for modern gaming. My CRT is for classic gaming. Simple divide that also clearly delineates between my growing classic game collection and HD Systems.
 
IrishNinja said:
i dunno, six four...links in the OP say the min's the best! i understand you robots from the future cannot deal with the mighty 1.5 ms of lag on 8" screens at temperatures above 73F, but those of us who aren't actually snatchers seem to manage
Click to expand...
1.5 frames, not milliseconds.

I understand that, for the general consumer, compromises have to be made all the time, especially for televisions. Rarely is the high-end set someone has picked out for their home theater setup a perfect fit for retro games, and I'm not gonna berate Joe Average for buying one. Everyone's priorities are different.

What kills me, though, just kills me, is watching retro enthusiasts sink hundreds/thousands of dollars into a setup that can't even stand up to PC emulators via HDMI-out, and then convincing themselves that it's ideal. The Framemeister is garbage that isn't worth one tenth of its asking price, especially for a company that specializes in both display processors and capture equipment for retro games and has such a long line of notable products to show for it.

Interactivity is paramount. It's the whole point of the medium. If you're deliberately sacrificing it for minutely sharper pixels at a huge monetary investment, then I don't understand why you even partake in this hobby.
 
I really want a little PVM setup in the corner, and my retro collection can live there...

.. But so glad I have a Framemeister to put games on my giant plasma and home theater system when the time is right.

Lol @ Dick Tracy's watch.

Sixfortyfive said:
1.5 frames, not milliseconds.
Click to expand...
I've heard it was under a frame of lag to process. Which might be 1 frame? Do you know better?

That's like nothing though even if it is 1.5 frames. You can play Street Fighter and shmups on the mini and I doubt anyone could tell. Maybe don't have a tournament with it... But those people are crazy Chosen Ones. It's absolutely fine for 99.9% of gamers on the planet.
 
IrishNinja said:
i respect you PVM crowd but

14" screen? why don't i just play games from dick tracy's watch
Click to expand...

Lol. It's bigger than you think for a retro setup, believe me. Pixels look fantastic on it. If I find a 20 or 29 inch model for a reasonable price I'll consider it, but I'm really happy with my little unit. If you feel the need to have a giant fucking screen, pvm/bvm probably isn't for you.

Sixfortyfive said:
1.5 frames, not milliseconds.

I understand that, for the general consumer, compromises have to be made all the time, especially for televisions. Rarely is the high-end set someone has picked out for their home theater setup a perfect fit for retro games, and I'm not gonna berate Joe Average for buying one. Everyone's priorities are different.

What kills me, though, just kills me, is watching retro enthusiasts sink hundreds/thousands of dollars into a setup that can't even stand up to PC emulators via HDMI-out, and then convincing themselves that it's ideal. The Framemeister is garbage that isn't worth one tenth of its asking price, especially for a company that specializes in both display processors and capture equipment for retro games and has such a long line of notable products to show for it.

Interactivity is paramount. It's the whole point of the medium. If you're deliberately sacrificing it for minutely sharper pixels at a huge monetary investment, then I don't understand why you even partake in this hobby.
Click to expand...

Whoa, hold on here. Spewing some serious vitrol here. If you're not into collecting carts and seeing the original creator's visions in their purest form, then no ---- rgb gaming is not for you. Comparing an emulator to a real console isn't a discussion worth having with many of us in this thread. If you want an emulator box, that's fine. In fact, the retron 5 might be perfect for you. But for me, and I assume many others here, classic gaming is largely about reproducing the original experience as it was originally intended to be experienced. If that's not your gig that's cool -- just be careful on what you're judging before you start jumping all over how we prefer to enjoy the hobby.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
What kills me, though, just kills me, is watching retro enthusiasts sink hundreds/thousands of dollars into a setup that can't even stand up to PC emulators via HDMI-out, and then convincing themselves that its ideal. The Framemeister is garbage that isn't worth one tenth of its asking price, especially for a company that specializes in both display processors and capture equipment for retro games and has such a long line of notable products to show for it.

Interactivity is paramount. It's the whole point of the medium. If you're deliberately sacrificing it for minutely sharper pixels at a huge monetary investment, then I don't understand why you even partake in this hobby.
Click to expand...

jokes aside, this post is pretty ignorant - you are literally focusing on the 1.5 frames and throwing out everything else. "can't stand up to PC emulators via HDMI out" shows how little emphasis you put on graphic & audio fidelity, something i stress & require original hardware for.

the garbage device you're speaking of allows me to use the one TV i have space/care for and utilize its size, high IQ & general reliability with my classic systems, and have a ton of visual options to mess with as well. in return, i don't need to expand my home to allow for bulky, inferior & outdated tech, and the tradeoff, again, is a might 1.5 frames, well within my personal limits for twitchy SHMUPs, fighters and rhythm games. again, i understand why this is unsuitable for snatchers, but come on man.

Superblatt said:
Lol. It's bigger than you think for a retro setup, believe me. Pixels look fantastic on it. If I find a 20 or 29 inch model for a reasonable price I'll consider it, but I'm really happy with my little unit. If you feel the need to have a giant fucking screen, pvm/bvm probably isn't for you.
Click to expand...

haha, i don't doubt that it looks incredible, just messing with you - and yeah, i know the prices get dumb above that. you're right though, i think it'd be cool for me to see up close but knowing myself, i'd take the larger screen 9 times out of 10.
 
Superblatt said:
Whoa, hold on here. Spewing some serious vitrol here. If you're not into collecting carts and seeing the original creator's visions in their purest form, then no ---- rgb gaming is not for you. Comparing an emulator to a real console isn't a discussion worth having with many of us in this thread. If you want an emulator box, that's fine. In fact, the retron 5 might be perfect for you. But for me, and I assume many others here, classic gaming is largely about reproducing the original experience as it was originally intended to be experienced. If that's not your gig that's cool -- just be careful on what you're judging before you start jumping all over how we prefer to enjoy the hobby.
Click to expand...
When did I ever say I'd spend money on something like a Retron, or that I don't play on original hardware the vast majority of the time? (This past weekend, I literally spent about $500 acquiring a lot of games I've been putting off for a while. I will be joining the NESRGB crowd in the future.)

I'm just saying that if I'm going to be investing some serious cash on a device dedicated to the one specific function of retro gaming, then it better justify that asking price. This is why I have an XRGB-3 instead of a Framemeister. I can get virtually the same upscaling functionality on my LCD in most cases if I want to, without sacrificing much-desired lag-free linedoubling functionality on CRTs on the other.

My emulator comment is a statement of how I'd rather play on a slightly inaccurate implementation of a game than on a Framemeister if it's (a) more responsive and (b) free. The trade-off isn't worth it at that price. I don't even use vsync most of the time.

IrishNinja said:
jokes aside, this post is pretty ignorant - you are literally focusing on the 1.5 frames and throwing out everything else.
Click to expand...
There's nothing ignorant about it. I'm well informed, and it is literally that big of a deal to me, especially when it gets added to display lag.

I've been testing and moving around a lot of hardware lately as I've been reorganizing, selling, and acquiring new games. I've just recently compared Super Mario Bros via RF on original hardware + a particularly unremarkable CRT to Lost Levels on the Gamepad (~2 frames of lag), and I can say without exaggeration that the former is a more preferable experience. It's functional. I value how games play and look, but I will never sacrifice the former for the latter if it can be helped.
 
antibolo said:
Welcome to the thread.

First of all, are you talking about a VGA-based computer CRT? They are not really suited for retro consoles. For best possible results, you want either an upscaler, or a pro broadcast monitor like a Sony PVM or BVM. Pretty much everyone in this thread has either one or the other (or both).

EDIT: You can use an upscaler on your VGA monitor. It has to support VGA out though.
Click to expand...
I'm not 100% set on the VGA monitor, I'll maybe look into the PVM/BVM thing.

Sony PVM has some strange plugs on it, whoa. Well, there's an s-video jack.

There's some passion in dis thread, that's what I like about retro gamers. <3
 
I'd love to see a Network-style rant about the virtues of CRTs.

I don't think PVMs support progressive scan...?
 
Also, to answer the previous question you edited in:

BocoDragon said:
I've heard it was under a frame of lag to process. Which might be 1 frame? Do you know better?

That's like nothing though even if it is 1.5 frames. You can play Street Fighter and shmups on the mini and I doubt anyone could tell. Maybe don't have a tournament with it... But those people are crazy Chosen Ones. It's absolutely fine for 99.9% of gamers on the planet.
Click to expand...
Fudoh (the guy who runs that huge hazard-city video processor page) states in his most-recent cross-comparison that the Framemeister lags by approximately 24ms at all times, regardless of the chosen mode. That is roughly equal to the XRGB-3's upscaler mode (1080p) but well above its linedoubler mode (480p). Also, since the Framemeister is HDMI-only, that means you're going to be hooking it into a flatscreen that has at least another half frame of lag (in a best-case scenario; most TVs will have 1 to 3 frames), whereas the older XRGBs can hook into CRTs.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
Also, to answer the previous question you edited in:


Fudoh (the guy who runs that huge hazard-city video processor page) states in his most-recent cross-comparison that the Framemeister lags by approximately 24ms at all times, regardless of the chosen mode. That is roughly equal to the XRGB-3's upscaler mode (1080p) but well above its linedoubler mode (480p). Also, since the Framemeister is HDMI-only, that means you're going to be hooking it into a flatscreen that has at least another half frame of lag (in a best-case scenario; most TVs will have 1 to 3 frames), whereas the older XRGBs can hook into CRTs.
Click to expand...

I was doing the math actually.. and keeping in mind that I'm an idiot about these things, here's my logic:

1 frame in 60fps is 1.66% of a second.

20 miliseconds of lag which the mini has is 2% of a second.

So yeah.. I'd say you are right actually. It is about 1.5 frames of lag.. (give or take)
 
input lag is definitely my biggest gripe with the way many people play retro games
tearing would be #2
inaccurate sound emulation #3
poor quality dpads #4

worrying about scanline thickness or perfect color accuracy before you've taken care of those issues makes no sense to me
 
i think this thread is at its best when we arbitrarily prioritize things for complete strangers as if rational people don't make varying levels of acceptable compromises literally thousands of times on the daily

personally i order my games half by genre & preference, the other half by related theme or developer and i get that others do so chronologically or by other metrics but those aren't real gamers&#8482; and i don't respect them
 
orborborb said:
input lag is definitely my biggest gripe with the way many people play retro games
tearing would be #2
inaccurate sound emulation #3
poor quality dpads #4

worrying about scanline thickness or perfect color accuracy before you've taken care of those issues makes no sense to me
Click to expand...
I care about 2, 3 and 4 a lot. A lot. That's why emulation drives me batty .. There's always something off.

And while I care about 1, I just want it to the point that I would never notice it. Next to perfect is fine for me. I honestly couldn't tell there was lag, and if someone told me there was zero lag, I'd believe them.

The lag on that thing is not even close to someone just hooking the machine up to an HDTV and using the built in scaler.... Or heaven forbid you play on a poor LCD. That drives me nuts. The XRGB on my plasma is good enough for me.

I really want a PVM but it's honestly for the fetish of the look of it. Lag isn't a factor in seeking one out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Anyone else ditching TAA and AI upscalers?
Opinion  2
70
1K
buenoblue replied
Billy from The Game Chasers passed away
Retro 
36
1K
SegaManAU replied
  • Poll
Capcom are carrying gaming for me right now
2
53
1K
Badlucktroll replied
Joe & Mac Retro Collection - Gameplay Trailer
Retro Trailer 
3
272
Seider replied
[RTTP] Sanitarium
Opinion Retro 
16
386
Panajev2001a replied
Top Bottom