BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Great, so now the XRGB mini has 100ms of lag. Fuck. ;P
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Great, so now the XRGB mini has 100ms of lag. Fuck. ;P
IrishNinja
Member
again, a PVM or easier still, finding space one day for a good model trinotron would possibly mean TATE mode, lightgun games & other analog inputs, so there's that too
ahaha i was just talking to Mzo about the ship of theseus and these compromises we make, now ya'll gon fuck around & bring phenomenology into this bitch and ruin everything
ahaha i was just talking to Mzo about the ship of theseus and these compromises we make, now ya'll gon fuck around & bring phenomenology into this bitch and ruin everything
Well hey, you also have to take into account...
-the lag for the electrical signal to travel from your brain to your thumbs,
-the lag it takes for the button to go from the neutral position to the contact point in the controller
-the lag it takes for the electrical signal to travel from the controller to the console
-the lag it takes the console to process that input in the game
-the lag it takes for the output signal to process from that output
-the lag it takes for the signal to reach the television
-the lag it takes the television to process and display the event
All of which applies regardless of whether you are using the XRGB or not!
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
...I'm selling my game collection immediately.
No dude, it's cool. All you need to do is mod your consoles so that they are controlled via a direct neural interface.
You might actually reduce the lag to 10ms or something like that. After that, just overclock your brain.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
But if you die in the game, you die for real.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
After personally witnessing what some people can do on a stock 360 d-pad, I can't even bring myself to be a controller snob anymore.
Most of the frustration comes not from the lack of prioritization of the issue, but from the lack of considering it in the first place. I'm not going to seriously rage on an informed consumer for having different preferences, but sometimes I think there's more discussion about scanline filters for sources that aren't even 240p in the first place. (Wait, what?)
This isn't always true. Sometimes the scaling is impressively fast, and it's the deinterlacing that wrecks the whole process. Sometimes feeding the set a progressive scan signal is all you need to do to circumvent that specific problem.
The LCD monitor I play some games on has virtually the same lag in 480p as it does in native 1080p.
It was fun while it lasted, guys.
Are you seriously trying to say that the built in scaler on your LCD is better than the scaler in the XRGB mini?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
"Better" is a vague term. It won't look pretty, no.
I'm pretty certain that it's faster, though.
PVMs have RGB+sync input using 4 BNC connectors. The simplest way to tap into them is to get a SCART to BNC breakout cable, then you can buy SCART cables for your consoles and use them on your PVM as if it were an European TV (but it's still all 60 Hz).
RGB is the best possible signal because it's a raw signal that was not converted to NTSC or PAL. With that said, s-video is also pretty good if you happen to already have s-video cables at hand. The s-video decoder on PVMs is very high end stuff.
You can also connect composite sources to a PVM by using a BNC to RCA adapter, but of course the image quality can only go so far.
How do you know? Have you measured it?
You called 20ms of lag garbage. Your LCD monitor has to be some serious shit if it's going to beat that. And if you think you could tell without measuring, you'd need to be Superman.
From my experience on most modern HDTVs the only instance where you get tons of unavoidable lag is on 480i, everything else (including 480p) will be just as fast as the native resolution (which still has lag of course, but within manageable levels). It's the deinterlacing that is laggy as fuck, not the scaling.
(240p is processed as 480i too, unfortunately)
(240p is processed as 480i too, unfortunately)
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I did measure it back when I got it. Turns out that I still have the pictures.
This is accurate to the frame (60fps), not to the millisecond.
baphomet
Member
Finally got a replacement PLA chip in for my Commodore 64. Also went ahead and ordered JiffyDOS because it boots significantly quicker than the standard Commodore Basic. Wanted to check it out through the mini, but unfortunately s-video is the best video you can get out of it as far as I'm aware. So here it is. The SD drive is attached to the back and the switch is to boot between JiffyDOS and Commdore Basic. It doesn't look too bad I suppose. The SID chip is easily the coolest thing about this system. The music in most of the games I've checked out has been excellent.
And here's a quick capture of me sucking at Last Ninja II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8el55SSXi40
The Last Ninja II
And here's a quick capture of me sucking at Last Ninja II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8el55SSXi40
Get your hands on Skate or Die and Monty on the Run for some Rob Hubbard awesomeness. Skate or Die in particular is some wizard level shit. He exploited a flaw in the chip in order to get guitar samples in the intro.
Ok Retro-GAF help me out here. Just ordered a RGB modded PC Engine Duo, that also comes with a Japanese SCART cable, and a composite cable. I intend to use it with my HDTV. Since it is the only retro console I currently have I don't want to shell out big bucks for a Framemeister so was thinking to buy something like this:
Although I have head rumblings this might not support Japanese SCART? What would my best option be otherwise?
Although I have head rumblings this might not support Japanese SCART? What would my best option be otherwise?
There's no such thing as "Japanese SCART", there's SCART and then there's the pre-VGA era Japanese computer monitor RGB standard commonly referred to as "JP21". JP21 uses the same connector as SCART but it is not SCART. If a device is labeled "SCART" then it is most likely not going to support JP21.
Who did you buy it from? If it's from doujindance, he usually makes SCART cables, not JP21.
EDIT: Oh I just remembered you were the one who bought that Duo-not-R in the PC Engine thread. Yes, it's SCART. You should be fine. No idea how good the image quality is going to be though. There are also SCART to Component adapters out there.
Who did you buy it from? If it's from doujindance, he usually makes SCART cables, not JP21.
EDIT: Oh I just remembered you were the one who bought that Duo-not-R in the PC Engine thread. Yes, it's SCART. You should be fine. No idea how good the image quality is going to be though. There are also SCART to Component adapters out there.
Sweet thanks! Yep from doujindance indeed! Well based on this video with a Genesis it seems to work well?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpedYorBt7c
Are there any other options I should be aware of besides going the xrgb route?
Sadly not an option since we're living in an apartment.
Totally an option. CRTs and apartments exsisted together since the sixties.
baphomet
Member
Not that I know of. You might as well just plug rf into your TV at that point as it's not going to look any better with an upscaler.
Thanks. It's more about input lag for me though.
baphomet
Member
If you were to find an upscaler that upscaled rf, I wouldn't expect it to decrease lag any more than a mid range TV.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I did measure it back when I got it. Turns out that I still have the pictures.
This is accurate to the frame (60fps), not to the millisecond.
VH236H, right? I've had one of those for like... the last 5 years.
It's good for games, unless you like them to not look like absolute horse shit. God, I hate TN monitors.
Yup, I'm an apartment gal with a PVM, I just have a 14"on my computer desk with my PC monitor. I recently got a 20" PVM but I might save it for when I have a bigger place.
You could plug your rf switch into a device that has rf-in and rca-out such as a VCR, and upscale the composite signal from there.
Or more elegantly, just av-mod your famicom.
The simplest mod I know requires very few parts (two resistors and two capacitors in total for both audio and video + rca sockets and a bunch of wires) and it's extremely easy to perform.
Here's a link:
http://vaot.mydns.jp/fc/ezav.htm
It's in Japanese but it should be simple enough.
Famicom av mods have a strong tendency to output noisy video with really bad jailbars, though. There are various solutions against them but if you're planning on upscaling with an xrgb, the low pass filter will take care of them for you.
Some of us don't want to deal with ancient CRTs. Some of us don't have space. Some of us have aesthetic preferences.
Some of us can live with a little extra input lag for the convenience.
You prefer CRTs; we get it. If scalers bother you so much, start a CRT thread and you can prattle all you like about them there.
baphomet
Member
Or, considering this thread isn't specifically about upscalers, feel free to talk about them here all youd like.
soxinthebox
Member
Has anyone had experience with these cheaper converters? Do they at least equal the original source and not make things worse?Ok Retro-GAF help me out here. Just ordered a RGB modded PC Engine Duo, that also comes with a Japanese SCART cable, and a composite cable. I intend to use it with my HDTV. Since it is the only retro console I currently have I don't want to shell out big bucks for a Framemeister so was thinking to buy something like this:
Although I have head rumblings this might not support Japanese SCART? What would my best option be otherwise?
Check the youtube link I posted earlier, people seem to give these good reviews. Surprised me as well, just ordered one so should be able to give my own input later on.
I did some research about those some time ago.
I found this page:
http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=saebaryo&logNo=30175551067
which has a few videos showing Super Famicom footage on a variety of devices.
One is the LKV 363a, which I think is basically the same as the 362a, but with RCA/s-video in instead of RGB.
The quality of the upscaling is horrible.
Moving objects become garbled, it's really ugly.
Here's the footage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld_3mjUK854
Skip to the 1:00 mark. Go full screen to take full measure of the mess.
Then compare with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otIdI_Wpgoo
Which is the same game but upscaled with a Framemeister.
Another annoying thing is that many of those cheap devices output a fixed 16:9 image. Unless your TV/monitor has a setting to force 4:3, you'll have a squashed image.
soxinthebox
Member
The video you linked seemed fine but the screenshots on the blog looked really bad.
Superblatt
Member
Where'd you find it? Always curious to hear how people find 'em.
digita1alchemy
Member
I'm about to pull the trigger on a PVM-20M4U. I'm new to this and I have no idea what cables I need to get. I want to use it for my NES, N64, Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox and Gamecube. I know I need to mod my NES and N64. Can anyone help me out for the other consoles? Here's more info on the monitor: http://www.broadcastbaron.com/infopvm20m4u.htm
I'm going to pick up a SNES, Genesis, TG-16 and Saturn over the next few months, so I am not worried about those right now.
I'm going to pick up a SNES, Genesis, TG-16 and Saturn over the next few months, so I am not worried about those right now.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
N64 depends on the mod, but it should be compatible with equivalent SNES cables. Just make sure you find something compatible for NTSC consoles. (PAL Nintendo consoles have a slightly different pin-out.)
480p games on Dreamcast and more recent consoles would be better suited to VGA or component. AFAIK, SCART will only carry 240p/480i. Gamecube component and D-terminal cables are prohibitively expensive, though, and I think NTSC Gamecubes can't output RGB natively.
First step is getting a SCART to BNC breakout cable.
Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox, SNES, Genesis and Saturn can do RGB out of the box, you just need the right cable.
Gamecube only does RGB on PAL models, there's a component cable but it's rare. Unless you already own that cable it's easier to just use a backwards-compatible Wii instead, but still component only (this monitor supports it, BTW)
TG-16 needs to be modded, it only does composite otherwise.
He intends on using a PVM though, which does not support 480p anyway. SCART is the best option there for all of them.
digita1alchemy
Member
Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated. And I already own Gamecube component cables, so that helps there.
How is the geometry on PVMs in general? It might be more of a case-by-case thing though. For me, a contributing factor for getting an XRGB was the prospect of perfect geometry, which I'm happy with, but I may have the opportunity to get a PVM soon. I'm not going to say I actually notice the lag on the XRGB, but lag-free gaming on a really nice CRT sounds great. The nostalgia of CRTs is definitely a factor 
Lynd7
Member
Just on eBay, I have to drive for awhile to get it.
So if I did want to hookup a GC or Wii, is there an extra cable for the component cables to go into? A component to BNC?
Buy a bunch of RCA-female to BNC-male adapters so you can plug the cable directly. You should find some at an electronics surplus store, especially if they sell CCTV systems, which tend to use BNC connectors for composite feeds.
Those same adapters can also be used for the composite inputs.
Yeah, I'm not expecting 100% perfection because that would be unrealistic. I was fed up with poor geometry on bigger consumer-grade CRTs especially, so I'm expecting good things from a PVM. Looks great in that shot.
I'm so sorry, but this video is bullshit. The dissociation of the flash and the moving circle can't be explained by the time needed to process the information. If this was the case, then both the flash and the moving circle would be delayed, having both still in sync but beside the real image. Similarly it would happen regardless you are focusing on the circle or not. A better experiment to calculate the time between the image, its processing and the reaction time would be to have your test subject try to pinpoint a randomly moving circle, trying to put their index in the middle of it.
Your eye and brain don't process light the same way depending on how you focus on it. Your centre vision is very good at taking a still image so your brain can process it in a very complex way. Conversely your peripheral vision is more blurry but is much more efficient at registering movements and allows you to react more quickly. Add in persistence of vision and our ability to see very brief flashes of light, and you have a perfectly fine and simple explanation of the phenomenon without having to include neuronal delay (which does exist but is represented completely inaccurately in this video.)
This is why when focusing on the moving circle you are able to see the flash in its centre, whereas with your peripheral vision you apparently see the flash besides the circle. Your peripheral vision isn't delayed, in fact it's more efficient as it takes more information and gives your brain a better moving picture: you don't see a flash besides a circle, you see a still flash and a circle moving past it. Different visions for different needs.
tl:dr; No, we don't.
/offtopic
PixyJunket
Member
I really can't decide if I want to go CRT or XRGB to LCD.
I guess I have some time to sit on it, but ugh, I've been thinking about it way too much this last week or so.
I guess I have some time to sit on it, but ugh, I've been thinking about it way too much this last week or so.
baphomet
Member
I enjoy both, but aside from capturing, I always play on my PVM. Also, a Tate PVM is sexy. Really just depends on what suits you.
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