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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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meanspartan
Member
So a couple friends and I have started our own gaming podcast. We released episode one already, and will be recording #2 tomorrow night. Thanks to some good fortune on my part, an acquaintance of mine who works as a Social Media and Marketing Coordinator for Hyperkin has agreed to do an interview with us.
Besides the elephant in the room (the continued delays of the release of the retron 5), what questions do you want to have answered?
And to throw in a shameless plug for our fledgling podcast, episode #1 can be found here: http://pixelapocalypse.ctrlalttech...._ids=684089398314814&fb_action_types=og.likes
Please disregard the "Pixel Apocalyspse" stuff, we are just piggybacking on the website of a now-defunct podcast until our own is ready. To subscribe for now, search "Pixel Apocalypse" on your podcast app of choice, it will carry new episodes for a while even after our own website is up, and we will let listeners know on the show when they can switch over.
Also, if you want to do us a really big solid, like us on Facebook too: https://www.facebook.com/thepodcast1
Does a lot to help us build our visibility and hopefully, an audience. We are in huge need of feedback to help us improve the show and get it to where we want it to be.
Thanks guys, and can't wait to see what questions you want us to ask!
Besides the elephant in the room (the continued delays of the release of the retron 5), what questions do you want to have answered?
And to throw in a shameless plug for our fledgling podcast, episode #1 can be found here: http://pixelapocalypse.ctrlalttech...._ids=684089398314814&fb_action_types=og.likes
Please disregard the "Pixel Apocalyspse" stuff, we are just piggybacking on the website of a now-defunct podcast until our own is ready. To subscribe for now, search "Pixel Apocalypse" on your podcast app of choice, it will carry new episodes for a while even after our own website is up, and we will let listeners know on the show when they can switch over.
Also, if you want to do us a really big solid, like us on Facebook too: https://www.facebook.com/thepodcast1
Does a lot to help us build our visibility and hopefully, an audience. We are in huge need of feedback to help us improve the show and get it to where we want it to be.
Thanks guys, and can't wait to see what questions you want us to ask!
I really would like to ask them is why they don't communicate at all on their facebook page to address any of their potential customers' concerns? That page has become a warzone just because Hyperkin doesn't choose to address or announce any of the delays and price increase there. It would suffice just to write a weekly update to re-assure people, but instead the only thing Hyperkin posts is nonsensical pictures, an if a message gets responded it is to a joke post anyway. Really baffling as it surely affects sales.
meanspartan
Member
Great question and one I've been wondering myself. We'll likely ask this on the interview.
sixteen-bit
Member
might want to ask this thread for questions too. lots of prospective buyers there.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=528855
Emperor Bohe
Member
so a while back I bought a RGB SCART to Component converter, but both of my HDTVs don't support it. They both give me "invalid signal" so I kind of just gave up and assumed it wasn't possible with my current tvs.
what are the chances of a RGB SCART to HDMI converter working on my HDTV if the component one didn't work? I have a 720p Dynex tv & a 1080p LG HDTV (sorry, no serial numbers at the moment). I'll be using it to hook up my Sega Saturn and older consoles. also, is VGA box still the best solution for best quality for Dreamcast? both of my tvs have VGA inputs, but I don't have a VGA box yet to test
edit: basically I'm going to grab this HDMI converter if it'll work, if not then I'll probably hunt down a CRT with component inputs
what are the chances of a RGB SCART to HDMI converter working on my HDTV if the component one didn't work? I have a 720p Dynex tv & a 1080p LG HDTV (sorry, no serial numbers at the moment). I'll be using it to hook up my Sega Saturn and older consoles. also, is VGA box still the best solution for best quality for Dreamcast? both of my tvs have VGA inputs, but I don't have a VGA box yet to test
edit: basically I'm going to grab this HDMI converter if it'll work, if not then I'll probably hunt down a CRT with component inputs
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Your SCART-to-component converter probably doesn't work because your TVs can't accept 240p over component.
A SCART-to-HDMI converter would probably have (poor) upscaling to HD resolutions. I'd bet that it would show a picture, but it wouldn't look pretty.
A SCART-to-HDMI converter would probably have (poor) upscaling to HD resolutions. I'd bet that it would show a picture, but it wouldn't look pretty.
Yes. I ordered a Kuro not too long ago, which should be the ideal solution for people who want compatibility with the entire Dreamcast library (instead of only the games that are specifically designated as VGA compatible) but don't care about scanlines.
IrishNinja
Member
^don't you need the kuro + kenzai for RGB support though?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
All the Kenzei does is combine the sync signals, which is irrelevant if you're using something that already supports VGA/RGBHV.
Friend of Sonic
Member
Oh, so the Kenzei will allow me to play this on my PVM 20l5? It supports the VGA khz (31?) but it won't work just like that because of what you mentioned. Is that pretty much the easiest way to get VGA on my PVM?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I've used the following:
Matrox MXO2 Mini - The one strength that this thing had over all the other devices I've tried since then was that it could be bought with an expresscard interface, freeing up USB ports on a laptop and not running the risk of overloading the USB bus when used in conjunction with multiple webcams. Not a bad device overall but too expensive at the rate it was going for a couple years ago. Maxed out at 720p60 / 1080p30, only did HDMI + component, and didn't always handle component converters very well.
Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle - Until the past year, this was the gold standard for USB capture devices, as it was the only USB 3.0 device at mass market prices and therefore the only viable external card that could capture at HD resolutions without forced hardware encoding. Its remaining strength is that it has decent transcoding, something that the new USB 3.0 devices (XCAPTURE and Extremecap U3) lack, but the others boast support for more input resolutions and/or connection types.
Avermedia Live Gamer Portable - Normally I avoid USB 2.0 devices out of principle (lower video quality, laggy preview window, poor software support is always a concern with these), but this one wasn't bad for that class of capture card. Biggest strengths were the DVR functions (could be used without a PC hooked up) and the lag-free transcoding.
Micomsoft XCAPTURE-1 - My device of choice since it came out last year. Supports everything from 240p to 1080p, all at up to 60fps, only external card I've seen with a VGA input, USB 3.0 so no hardware compression, lag-free passthrough, etc.
Micomsoft's capture cards--the SC-500N1/DVI, the SC-512N1-L/DVI, and the XCAPTURE-1--are all manufactured by Yuan Hi-Tech and seem to be repackaged versions of various devices seen here. I know that the XCAPTURE-1 is a repackaged UB530, for example:
http://www.yuan.com.tw/en/products/single_channel_pcie_models.htm
http://www.yuan.com.tw/en/products/single_channel_external_models.htm
The Startech PEXHDCAP is based on the same hardware as the Micomsoft SC-500N1/DVI. Both devices max out at 720p60 / 1080p30 and both support 240p60. The SC-512N1-L/DVI and XCAPTURE-1 do 1080p60; the previous two devices do not. What's interesting is that people on the shmups forum have reported that drivers are interchangeable between all of these internal PCI devices by Micomsoft and Startech (i.e. everything but the XCAPTURE) to some degree, and the latest Startech drivers support true RGB capture (not the 4:2:2 subsampling that the Micomsoft drivers have). It'd be interesting if someone could hack things together in such a manner that could provide true, uncompressed RGB capture at 1080p60 through at least one of these devices.
I've looked around for updated XCAPTURE/UB530 drivers every once in a while, but it's been impossible for me to find any drivers directly from Yuan.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
It depends on a lot of factors, but the two biggest ones by far are the computer you're using to capture (desktop or laptop, Windows or other, etc.) and the different types of sources that you want to capture (what consoles, what types of inputs, etc). And if you already have a dedicated upscaler for your retro consoles, that could open up your options to some otherwise decent cards that don't have 240p support but are considerably less expensive than those that do.
List what you're using and I could try to offer some specific input. Otherwise here are some factors to think over.
Interface (PCI-e, USB2, USB3, expresscard, etc.) - If you're on a desktop, it's usually a good idea to go with an internal card. This might not matter as much if your setup isn't as complicated as mine, but from personal experience, I can tell you that trying to use a USB capture card in conjunction with multiple USB webcams can be a pain. A typical USB bus often doesn't have the bandwidth to support multiple uncompressed hi-def video connections at once, and something has to give somewhere. If you're on a laptop or just have to go USB, go USB3 when possible (i.e. you have the required hardware and none of the features of any USB2 cards are essential for you), but even if you have USB3 ports, you may not be able to find a compatible USB3 capture device if you have the wrong type of USB3 host controller.
1080p 60fps - Until this past year, capturing at this resolution and framerate was strictly in the domain of studio grade equipment in the $1000+ price range. That isn't the case anymore, as both Micomsoft and Avermedia now have at least some products in the $150-$350 range that can do this.
240p/15khz - To my knowledge, only Micomsoft and Startech have capture devices on the market that can support these kinds of sources properly and in a format you'd want to bother to use (i.e. RGB). One of the Elgato devices can as well, but only through composite and s-video as far as I'm aware. Everything else that I have some experience with won't accept anything below 480i/31khz (anything older than a Dreamcast). This may not be vital if you already have a good upscaler, though, as it could be feasible to just use the upscaler to bridge the gap between your source and a different capture card. From personal experience, though, I can say that using the XRGB-3's B1 (linedoubler) mode in conjunction with an XCAPTURE-1 isn't ideal for this; it can produce some weird tearing effects that aren't present when the XCAPTURE-1 is used directly with the source. I'm not sure how reliable a Framemeister would be for this and I can't remember if I ever tried the XRGB-3's B0 mode, and upscalers could also produce different results on different capture cards.
Forced H.264 encoding and DirectShow incompatibility - Anything that connects via USB2 will give you issues here, and these are the reasons why I avoid them. USB2 doesn't have the bandwidth to do uncompressed HD video, so these devices will compress the video with H.264 before even sending it to your computer, reducing the quality somewhat. That compression process can also add a lot of lag to your capture window, which can be annoying if you're livestreaming an event and the people watching at home see/hear the players and live crowd reacting to something that hasn't happened on the video feed yet. These devices also, to my knowledge, never properly support DirectShow, which means that any software that wants to interface with them must be written specifically to support that device. The creator of Open Broadcaster Software hates that the most frequently-advertised capture devices are USB2, because every last one of them requires him to do specific extra work to get them to work in his program, whereas anything that does uncompressed video and implements the DirectShow API will pretty much work out of the box for the most part, and you'll have an easier time getting those devices to work with lots of different recording software.
Chroma subsampling - Virtually every capture card on the market will sample their footage in less-than-RGB quality, even if said footage is "uncompressed." YUV 4:2:2, 4:2:0, 4:0:0, etc., and not even every 4:2:2 implementation is created equal (see here and here). If you can adjust your source device to output to a different color space, like how the Xbox 360 has support for Limited RGB, Full RGB, YCbCr709, and YCbCr601, then you can compensate for this, but otherwise, it means that different capture cards will have varying levels of color accuracy for your input sources. That's why those new Startech drivers are kind of exciting; full RGB capture would eliminate this concern, and I haven't seen anything else in the sub-$1000 range that does it.
Passthrough and transcoding - Some devices have input and output connections so that you can hook in the source to the card, then hook the card into both your PC and your TV/monitor, allowing you to still play off the TV without investing in any additional equipment. Personally, I don't think these features are ever a make or break deal, as buying dedicated splitters isn't that much of a hassle if needed, but it can be convenient.
DVR functionality - This is pretty much the one and only selling point I think USB2 devices tend to have. Some let you record straight to an SD card without having to hook up your PC. Some allow for instant replay capabilities as you're streaming. Depending on the kind of operation you want to run, that kind of stuff can be useful.
Resolution changes - If you're hooking up old consoles directly to the capture card, the way that it handles 240p/480i transitions can be a concern. Many capture cards won't scale the image at all and must be configured to match the source at all times, making games that switch resolutions a pain. This can also be a concern on PS3, which has a lousy, busted scaler.
Yeah the Elgato device only supports 240p on composite or s-video, component just gives a blank picture. I bought it and a scart to component converter for the express purpose of capturing old consoles, and needless to say I am very pissed at Elgato now. I contacted them about it and they say they don't plan on supporting it. It's so frustrating because all other solutions are either very expensive and/or PCIe cards (and I don't have a desktop computer at home).
baphomet
Member
Yea, I still have to put some more thought into how I'll be capturing. Right now I'm using an el gato and running everything rgb into my mini. Capturing at 720p60. It looks good, but I believe it's USB 2.0 so I'd like to see what other options I have.
I'll likely end up getting a new laptop and capturing over USB 3.0. I'll probably never try and capture anything other than an HD 720/1080 signal because of the mini. Most of this will likely go to YouTube, so 1080p60 isn't necessary, but it would be a nice option for the future. $300 is probably my limit price wise.
I'll likely end up getting a new laptop and capturing over USB 3.0. I'll probably never try and capture anything other than an HD 720/1080 signal because of the mini. Most of this will likely go to YouTube, so 1080p60 isn't necessary, but it would be a nice option for the future. $300 is probably my limit price wise.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I think this is still the most economical option for 1080p60. I've never used one personally so I don't know if it would play nice with a Framemeister, but if I was looking for something high in quality and light on extra features then it's probably what I'd pick up.
http://gamerzone.avermedia.com//game_capture/extremecap_u3
http://gamerzone.avermedia.com//game_capture/extremecap_u3
I tried to enjoy my PVM, I really did, but after repeated nights where I'd spend 20 minutes performing my magnetic rituals to no avail, I had completely given up on it. The PVM dream wasn't over yet, though.
So I tried my luck again. I found another of the same model on eBay for $60, with $35 shipping. It arrived just now. And...
It's absolutely perfect! Not a single distortion or discoloration anywhere at all. I'm really hyped now. I just wish there was a way to force N64 VC games to output 240p.
So I tried my luck again. I found another of the same model on eBay for $60, with $35 shipping. It arrived just now. And...
It's absolutely perfect! Not a single distortion or discoloration anywhere at all. I'm really hyped now. I just wish there was a way to force N64 VC games to output 240p.
IrishNinja
Member
^that looks absolutely fantastic, good work man!
What model is that?
Posted this in the gamecube thread, gonna post it here too:
quick question about RGB output on Gamecube (NTSC/USA consoles do not have it, but PAL ones here do).
I have two gamecubes - one is my black launch model with both Digital OUT and Multi Analog Out (it's a bit battered, poor condition now), and the other is a mint condition Platinum console which is the later revision with only Multi Analog Out. They are both PAL.
Now, using a SCART cable the Black console (first revision) works fine and outputs RGB to my XRGB. The Platinum console however does not output any image, only sound. On closer inspection, it's not outputting an RGB signal at all.
Is there any reason for this? Was RGB output removed in the revision along with Digital out? I could of course just use my Wii which outputs an image in RGB, but still.
quick question about RGB output on Gamecube (NTSC/USA consoles do not have it, but PAL ones here do).
I have two gamecubes - one is my black launch model with both Digital OUT and Multi Analog Out (it's a bit battered, poor condition now), and the other is a mint condition Platinum console which is the later revision with only Multi Analog Out. They are both PAL.
Now, using a SCART cable the Black console (first revision) works fine and outputs RGB to my XRGB. The Platinum console however does not output any image, only sound. On closer inspection, it's not outputting an RGB signal at all.
Is there any reason for this? Was RGB output removed in the revision along with Digital out? I could of course just use my Wii which outputs an image in RGB, but still.
I've got that same model, love it. Bought it in town off a broadcast company that used it for calibration. Makes for a really nice desk TV.
Cross posted from the SNES collector's thread.
Had an idea to do my component modded SNES's with a TRRS style jack.
Looks pretty good. And not as gaudy as the SNES with the gold RCA jacks sticking out the back. Almost looks factory.
Also modified the circuit a bit and now it looks nearly as good as RGB on my PVM.
Had an idea to do my component modded SNES's with a TRRS style jack.
Looks pretty good. And not as gaudy as the SNES with the gold RCA jacks sticking out the back. Almost looks factory.
Also modified the circuit a bit and now it looks nearly as good as RGB on my PVM.
RobFox64tm
Member
Didn't know where else to post this, but does anyone here have any experience with this SCART switch?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-3-POR...=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item2a3b6ea716
It's the B-Tech BT21 MK III and it looks like a clone of the Hama S100, but I'm hesitant to jump on it without knowing for sure. I really need a SCART switch solution, so if this one is bunk, does anyone have any links to a known quality one for purchase? Thanks!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-3-POR...=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item2a3b6ea716
It's the B-Tech BT21 MK III and it looks like a clone of the Hama S100, but I'm hesitant to jump on it without knowing for sure. I really need a SCART switch solution, so if this one is bunk, does anyone have any links to a known quality one for purchase? Thanks!
We talked about that a few pages back. It looks like a garbage switch, I'd avoid it.
This one is very good and inexpensive:
RobFox64tm
Member
Well, I was trying to go a bit cheaper than this one, but I've been looking for far too long for a decent switcher, so I pulled the trigger on it. It'll be worth it in case I decide to go beyond three RGB consoles anyhow, so thanks for the advice!
meanspartan
Member
Alright interview with Retron 5 rep just got recorded and I did fit in a few of the questions I got from Gaf to ask including the scanline issue, release date controversy, and price confirmation.
We will be posting it in our next episode, which will go on our facebook page here once it is ready: https://www.facebook.com/thepodcast1 . Like us there and you should see it on your timeline later this week.
If you don't have facebook, just check back here Wednesday or Thursday and I'll post a direct link to our website with the podcast (our website isn't quuuite ready yet but should be by then)
We will be posting it in our next episode, which will go on our facebook page here once it is ready: https://www.facebook.com/thepodcast1 . Like us there and you should see it on your timeline later this week.
If you don't have facebook, just check back here Wednesday or Thursday and I'll post a direct link to our website with the podcast (our website isn't quuuite ready yet but should be by then)
Not N64, afaik.
Cross posted from the SNES collector's thread.
Had an idea to do my component modded SNES's with a TRRS style jack.
Looks pretty good. And not as gaudy as the SNES with the gold RCA jacks sticking out the back. Almost looks factory.
Also modified the circuit a bit and now it looks nearly as good as RGB on my PVM.
That looks nice. I've been struggling for ideas on how to mod my snes mini for component myself (there isn't any room for rca jacks on the back). Curious: are there premade female component to trrs, or did you make the cable yourself?
Edit: Also, I've seen that particular trrs jack used before... it's the one that snaps in, right? Where'd you get it? I've been searching digikey and mouser, and I've only found the panel mount jacks that have the nut and screw.
Also interested to know this, It looks great!
I've got one of those cables - it came free with my girlfriend's TV (which I thought was odd at the time). It has a 3.5mm input instead of the standard component sockets.
Yeh our Panny plasma came with them too for all RCA inputs. I wonder if they're readily available from electronics supply shops though...
Well, the equivalent lead for video cameras are readily available for real dirt cheap:
BSM2tv)beg~~60_1.JPG)
and then combine it with three of these:
that would work. You'd have to go through trial and error to find the right sockets when plugging in a component cable though lol
Yea, I know. I had an old roku that used one of those cables for composite... and I know I could just use a composite cable (they're all the same plug), but I'd mostly want the r/b/g plugs for aesthetics and usability.
I actually plan on doing a snes mini real soon with component and the TRRS jack. I'll let you know how it goes and post pics.
You can get the TRSS component cable from ebay. It ships from the PRC. They seem to be of reasonable quality.
Ah ok. Think I found it:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-5MM-Earph...=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item35c8c858ec
That's perfect.
Yeah... That's ugly though
sure is. I couldn't find another option though - I tried searching ebay, maplin and other sources for the cable above and had no luck! Seems to be a rarity to buy on it's own in the UK.
Shipping: Does not ship to New Zealand
Noooooooooooooooooo!
I found one that has composite colouring that will ship here, I guess that would do... Could always change the ends to colour code properly.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-3-5mm-TRRS-to-RCA-AV-female-cable-3010/330787333115
Yeah I got like a pack of 5 for $6. I plan to do my component mods like this from now on and just include one of these cables.
It definitely beats what I was gonna do. I bought a rgb to component conversion board a while back specifically for my snes mini, but I forgot how little room there is in the snes mini for extra video jacks.
Anyway, I had the idea to make a custom component cable out of a wii av cable, and wire the component leads to the rgb pins on the snes multi-av, and connect y/pb/pr internally to those pins as well (since rgb isn't connected by default anyway).
It sounded better in my head, honestly, and I'm glad you posted that. There's plenty of space on the snes mini in particular, because it looks like Nintendo planned to put an rf modulator in, but didn't.
I also have the ability to use RGB in my setup, but I really don't like scart and scart switchers. I have the aforementioned Bandridge switch, and I'm just not happy with it. Component switches are easy to come by, at least in the US, and I'm not sacrificing much in terms of video quality by going to component.
If you don't like scart you could just hook the RGB lines to the component jack and use a component switcher. Using scart is just very convenient as you don't have to put a bunch of jacks on the outside of all your consoles. But I do agree, scart sucks as a standard.
If you have and RGB tv/monitor you should use RGB. Component is inferior. Especially if it is a reference RGB monitor (like a PVM).
Can you talk a bit more to this, specifically in regards to the SNES? I'm RGB crazy but I'd be interested to know what the differences are, particularly considering most people go crazy for component.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
YPbPr (component) has slightly inferior color compared to RGB. On more modern systems, component is superior to SCART because of higher resolutions (480p and up), whereas RGB SCART is typically (always?) limited to 240p/480i. So:
15khz sources (240p/480i): SCART > component
31khz sources (480p+): component > SCART
RGBHV (VGA) gives you the best of both worlds when it's an option (Dreamcast), as it gives you RGB color with higher resolution support.
Using component means passing through a completely unnecessary colorspace conversion. If your target output device already does RGB natively, why would you willingly sacrifice this pure unaltered signal just for the sake of not using SCART? I don't get it.
Also, it's entirely possible to do RGB with 4 RCA cables. It's just not a standard thing, but there's no reason it wouldn't work, as long as you're willing to make the cables yourself. Afterwards you can use a component switch (as long as it also has a composite plug for your sync signal, but most of them do).
But again, why even bother when you could just use SCART cables?? You're just making yourself more trouble than anything.
Also, it's entirely possible to do RGB with 4 RCA cables. It's just not a standard thing, but there's no reason it wouldn't work, as long as you're willing to make the cables yourself. Afterwards you can use a component switch (as long as it also has a composite plug for your sync signal, but most of them do).
But again, why even bother when you could just use SCART cables?? You're just making yourself more trouble than anything.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Assuming that the setup in question has decent 240p support over component, being able to plug the system directly into the display has appeal if you're in North America and consider SCART to be a hassle.
I'm with you, though. If I'm already going to the trouble of getting mods done and buying specialty cables and/or converters, it doesn't make sense to only go halfway.
What they^ said
Though another important point is that reference RGB monitors are great for displaying RGB with little to no signal modification. If you send it component it has to do some conversion to RGB. Giving straight RGB is always the best.
If you access a PVM display menu, you will noticed there are very little controls for adjusting the picture when in RGB mode. However, component mode lets you adjust the chroma.
An RGB reference monitor gives you the confidence that what you are seeing is what is intended.
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