People are not forgetting. This is having an effect. And since Anita stepped in we've started feeling it here in the gaming world, and it's only going to continue to amplify.
'Playing with privilege: the invisible benefits of gaming while male'
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People are not forgetting. This is having an effect. And since Anita stepped in we've started feeling it here in the gaming world, and it's only going to continue to amplify.
Waylon Drums
Member
I think I'm not being clear and I was to apologize for that. I don't think that no straight male EVER has to deal with horrible things like this, but I do think that it's not quite the same huge issue as it is for other groups. With that said, I'm sorry to hear about your friends/schoolmates and I definitely don't want to minimize their struggle.
Let's get this shit started.
Wait.....is this sarcastic?
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Since Anita...?
flatearthpandas
Member
Not to start anything, but isn't telling people how they ought to feel one of the big no-no's in all of this?
And moreso, isn't a big point of this in instructing people that some of the things they do can upset other people in the hopes that they will stop doing it?
I think people in charge and the people buying stuff need to be aware of the problem and be okay with people trying to fix it. A lot of the reason the problem persists is because the people in charge are content ignoring it and a portion of the people buying stuff resent that any view but theirs is out there. More people thinking about it will make those angry consumer voices less acceptable and motivate people in charge to change.
Think of movies with negative portrayals of asian people. Long Duk Dong and such stereo types. At some point people realized that a shitty portrayal of people and it became unacceptable so the stereotype diminished in it's use. A lot of that was editorials like that pointing out the shittiness of such portrayals and the economic incentive for the people in charge to kibosh such negative portrayals.
That is pretty much the definition of privilege in a sociology context, though: Being institutionally granted perks or allowed to avoid discrimination that others have to deal with on a routine basis. You can invert the language and talk about how some groups have a lot of disadvantages while others have almost none, but the basic concept is the same. It really seems to be just the word "privilege" that sets some people off.
They're just trying to say that even without doing anything there's a culture you're a part of that has consequences you don't feel and often that means you can dismiss real, pernicious effects because they don't happen to you. It's not about making you / men feel bad, it's about making men realize exactly how much these ideas permeate through even the smallest of events, how these things are foisted upon people who are just trying to have the same mundane experience you are. Awareness might make you feel bad (and that's kind of the point, eg women are constantly being made aware of this stuff), but the overall purpose is to inform and hopefully to help instigate change.
It's all fine, In general I just want it to be known though that such a thing does exist however, despite how others may like to press this issue to a point where it is "non-existent".
Waylon Drums
Member
I was unclear in my language. People are entitled to feel however they feel. When I said they "shouldn't" feel attacked I meant it like "they shouldn't feel that way because it isn't meant that way" but I was not clear and I apologize.
As long as you're comfortable that myself and other mods are going to agree with you that it's contextualization and not just the same excuse that gets vomited up in every one of these threads, then go ahead and roll it out for the umpteenth time. We'll moderate as we see fit.
Anita Sarkeesian, that person who put together some videos on gender issues.
Some people think she's great for having made them, others think she's horrible for having made them, others think her videos weren't very good at making a good point, and so on and so forth.
Waylon Drums
Member
Very true. It absolutely exists and in my haste to prove a point I lost that.
I really wish people would stop saying that "Anonymity = Assholery"
Have facebook comments on news articles not taught you anything?
Have facebook comments on news articles not taught you anything?
I know exactly what you mean. I never mic up for exactly that reason.
If you think it's sarcasm then you best start checking daily, mate.
way more
Member
akidnamededdy
Banned
What am I supposed to do with all this privilege
Check it
Yeah, this deserves to be said. As catchy as the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory is, it actually seems to be a lot more generalized. Anonymity can reduce the likelihood of being punished for bad behavior, but it seems like that wasn't even the main thing preventing people from being nasty to each other.
Change the "culture" of "male gamers".
I know. There's a lot of things that people get unwarranted hate for. I don't have to feel what a women feels when just trying to fit in. That's unfortunate. I don't have to feel what a Muslim man or women feels when they're just trying to fit in. That's unfortunate. A fit person doesn't have to feel what someone overweight feels when just trying to fit in. There's a lot of unfortunate behavior out there in this world. I don't want someone to say that I treat a Muslim differently because I'm white. I don't want someone to say I treat women unfairly because I'm a man. That is projecting their own biases on me. I want to treat others fairly.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Not even surprised by the amount of gray names, in the thread. Why is it so hard to ignore a thread if you have nothing to say but thread whine?
But I am hopeful that continual dialogue on the subject will facilitate a much less stereotypical environment to grow up in, as parents become more cognizant of what values their kids are learning.
Sadly, this is highly accurate. Yea, this behavior pervades most walks of life, due to how our society is structured. But, It's not something that can be erased through awareness alone. Issues like this, as painfully disengaged as this sounds, can only be improved over time. When we can get to a point where these underlying biases and prejudices no longer root themselves into children as they're growing up, then we'll see a decline in this behavior. And for that to happen, sadly, we need to wait as kids grow up without these negative reinforced influences.
But I am hopeful that continual dialogue on the subject will facilitate a much less stereotypical environment to grow up in, as parents become more cognizant of what values their kids are learning.
Coffee Dog
Banned
thesuperfunk
Member
My friend probably had it about right ...
Agree with some of his points, but most of them are related to general issues our Society has been unable to solve as a whole. So, even though we all can (and should) do our part to improve the situation, the onus to fix it is beyond the Gaming community scope, really.
Or are we supposed to disregard the fact that most of those points apply to other 'manly' activities/groups?
It's interesting that this article so far has sparked WAY LESS comments on GAF than when Annita made them in the past. So, there is less controversy, but also less interest.
Not sure if that's what he (she?) expected.
Or are we supposed to disregard the fact that most of those points apply to other 'manly' activities/groups?
It's interesting that this article so far has sparked WAY LESS comments on GAF than when Annita made them in the past. So, there is less controversy, but also less interest.
Not sure if that's what he (she?) expected.
I think that's because the American right has demonized the word and the academic point of view that came up with it to describe what goes on. Doesn't matter what the word is; the situation exists.
But it isn't even implication. The word "privilege" by definition means that an immunity is granted to a certain set, in this case men, of such social conflicts, whereas this is not true. Rather than having to make up definitions or point fingers in the first place, the stress should be on the main issue via showing real cases and showing what we can do to prevent such a thing from happening.
Kinda reminds me of that TED Talk comparing racist behavior to hygiene. When you point out that your friend has BO or something stuck in their teeth, you're generally not driving home the message that they're a filthy, terrible person because of it. You're just saying that they're doing something unpleasant that they can address. It's a problem of "what I did" versus "what I am." Some types of bad behavior are really emotionally charged terms that prompt people to defend themselves because they feel like they're being personally attacked whenever they come up.
In the previous example of telling your friend there's something stuck in their teeth, their response would probably be "Oh." followed by taking care of it. If you tell a friend that they just said something racially insensitive, however, you're far more likely to provoke a much more dramatic response where they deny being a racist and get angry at you for supposedly accusing them of it. People just need to learn how to simmer the fuck down and address it appropriately instead of escalating the situation.
rudieboy77
Member
I would be interested to see the date as to when the definition of social privilege was coined.
I'm thinking I have a good grasp on the intention to define it this way. It's just that this has a couple effects that may counter their intention and hoped for goals in creating the word this way. It may alienate people who do not contribute to said racism/sexism etc... and it may reinforce already bad attitudes people have about the left and social engineering.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
When I first heard about privilege I had the same reaction as a lot of people in this thread: "So, what, should I feel bad? Also, my life is hard in lots of ways." But I eventually had to admit that what I was hearing lined up with what I saw in society around me. It was a bitter truth to face. I have a whole lot of privilege, and it was hard to find a new way to look at how I operate in the world. And hell, it's still really hard. But not trying is just irresponsible.
What do you mean by that? The world Guys live in is situationally pretty different from girls, and being a minority is a significantly different experience than not being one.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
blitzcloud
Banned
Considering you won't see me gambling much more around women-centered topics (partially because you're being pretty open and honest about making these debates one-sided towards political correctness. Not a fact, just my opinion) because the sensitivity does in fact scale up notably compared to the male-centered topics (and by that centered thing, I mean directed negatively towards someone or speaking about that someone being either male or female), I'll have to dip on the preceding quote that the poster you're replying to (which is your own post) says, and simply disagree wholeheartedly.
yes, this does indeed happen outside of gaming, because many complaints on the OP are completely aside from the gaming aspect. They'd get treated equally on a chat room with no gaming context as long as some irrelevant e-thugs think a woman is stepping on their territory. So yes, saying that this happens outside of gaming is a valid reason, and pretty much the cause that it happens in gaming.
Now, if you said "online", yes. Most of these situations are very online-exclusive thanks to anonymity.
lol, imaging this analogy made me laugh.
Like "Eh guys....we just have the war next week. Yeah, next week. Or later."
I honestly can't tell. Stuff like
"Not a Red head" (Que?)
"Native English Speaker" (how would that help if you lived in Japan?)
"No Criminal History" (I assume you have some control over that...)
"Christian (Hmm.....Christianity get attacked a lot, especially in college courses)
"Attractive" (This is true...but at the same time, there are plenty of ugly people who get nice hair cuts, good clothing, and carry themselves well that get the respect of general attractiveness. You have a lot more control over this than a lot of people realize.)
All of these led me think that it was satirical or something.
Oh yeah, there's definitely a lot of opportunities for the whole thing to misfire, though I really think the responsibility falls on everyone involved. People who bring up these topics should be aware of their audience and not make their message more inflammatory than it needs to be. People receiving the message need to avoid being dismissive and/or jumping to the conclusion that it's a personal attack when it really isn't meant as one.
ChoklitCow
Member
I really appreciate this thread. A lot of people have shared some experiences and the conversation has been something I really didn't expect from a gaming forum.
Kudos, people. I wish this thread would draw some more attention than the one's accused of fanboyism in the internet world.
I think what hit home the most was our own posters discussing how they don't mic up anymore because of the experiences they had to face. That is a privilege I have never had to face, and it seem to really strike accord with me compared to the many other forms of privilege. It's tangible, easy to interpret whoever you are, and is an enjoyable part of the gaming experience for many people. To have to exclude that because of racism, sexism, __ism is pretty heartbreaking.
Kudos, people. I wish this thread would draw some more attention than the one's accused of fanboyism in the internet world.
I think what hit home the most was our own posters discussing how they don't mic up anymore because of the experiences they had to face. That is a privilege I have never had to face, and it seem to really strike accord with me compared to the many other forms of privilege. It's tangible, easy to interpret whoever you are, and is an enjoyable part of the gaming experience for many people. To have to exclude that because of racism, sexism, __ism is pretty heartbreaking.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Huh? But I believe it's very true. Men don't have to deal with a lot of shit women have to. Same with discrepancies of race. There is definitely an immunity to certain scenarios and situations.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
There's actually a whole book that basically argues it's not so much anonymity as it is saying things without seeing a human face on the other side.
So it's not that you can't see me, it's that I can't see you. A big part of communication is the idea of feedback, and in face-to-face discourse, this is done through reading the recipient's face and responding to that. On the internet, we see words and we basically lose the feedback barrier, resorting to the first thought that comes to mind.
People arguing that the internet reveals people for who they really are... well, they're incorrect. It's like saying the way a person acts while drunk is who they really are. Nah, a person's identity is super, super complex, but a big part of it is in regards to how they choose to respond to other people.
I'm a good person, I think, but I get ridiculously mad at people who do bad things in traffic. That's my immediate response. Without inhibition, I'd road rage all the time, because so many drivers are terrible and shouldn't have licenses. But... the person I am is the person who chooses not to give in to that immediate, angry response, and says "hm, maybe they didn't see me/maybe they made a mistake--I know I have/etc."
The problem with the internet is that, without audiovisual feedback, it can break barriers in communication. I can't read your face and see I'm saying something in a way that doesn't match my meaning, for instance. That lack of feedback leads to a lot of communication errors.
It doesn't matter how different of a situation of a life the average man or woman has to go through though. Men don't have a privilege in that they are immune to these problems women face, and if anything, they face social pressure in other ways in gaming and in life. I feel like I've been repeating myself this whole thread, so just look at my previous posts, and you'll get the gist of where I'm coming from.
Karsticles
Member
It really is unfortunate that a relatively new definition of the word was created that goes against the nature of previous uses of the word. I do find the word "privilege" off-putting just because it sounds so inaccurate, but I am fine with the word "advantage". "Males (generally) have advantages" is just more accurate than "Males are privileged". Part of the distaste, I think, is that saying I "have" an advantage is describing an aspect of myself, and it innately accepts that there are other aspects of myself that might be disadvantageous. The second option says I just "am" privileged, as though I, as a whole, am in a special place in a society because of one attribute I have. This is just deeply wrong, in my opinion.
A simple example:
George is a white male. George also survived a burning building, and he lost both legs and has horrible burn scars across his face and most of his body.
Should I say "George is privileged"?
That does not sound like an adequate way to portray the situation, and I think it's rather disgusting to group people by race or gender in this way. It seems deeply wrong to me that it is acceptable to be sexist (and saying "Males are privileged. You are male, so you are privileged." is the basic logical formulation of a sexist statement). Any generalization from sex to an individual beyond the inherently defining characteristics of that sex is a form of sexism, as is the case with racism.
I just do not understand why people think it's okay to make these kinds of comments about an entire sex or race. I am baffled that so many people applaud the term "privileged" when there is a clearly superior term available in "advantage", and that folks are okay with these stereotypes (generally accurate, no doubt) proliferating our cyberspace.
Edit: And it gets into the weird zone with things like that bingo chart above, where "Mentally Healthy" is described as a privilege. I don't even know how to respond to that sort of claim. It's just so bizarre.
Do you know how every time a black person commits a crime or gets into a really good school someone inevitably says "it's because he's black?" But a large group of white people trash their neighborhood after a college basketball game and no one chalks it up to "white people being white?"
It's like that. A girl plays a game, there are people who will carefully scrutinize every good or bad thing she does, and chalk it up to something with mostly negative connotations about her gender. It's constantly being called into a question. A guy sucks at fighting games and that's the beginning and end of the analysis.
I like how you denounce privilege exists and then go on to literally define privilege.
Pointing out privilege has nothing to do with telling someone how they should feel.
IchigoSharingan
Member
Glad you brought up Call of Duty.
Because women there are rabid assholes. On PC in many pubs women are FAR nastier than men over losing, getting shot, etc.
On MOBAs I've played, I've seen too damn many women be stalkers, sexist, douchey, crybabies, etc.
I've been stalked, had to change my game tag, only to find out the woman found it out somehow, etc. Shit's creepy.
Long story short, women are just as bad, sometimes worse.
Wasn't really sure about this article, but I agree with what I skimmed. White straight males in general just have a lot of privilege in western society, it's not limited to gaming.
Women definitely have to deal with obnoxious harassment in games and on the internet in general. It's shitty, but I'm not sure of a good solution other than moderators and harassment reporting features in game.
Women definitely have to deal with obnoxious harassment in games and on the internet in general. It's shitty, but I'm not sure of a good solution other than moderators and harassment reporting features in game.
BlitzBlake
Member
You could start by sharing it yourself. On your Facebook, tumblr whatever you use. Be loud about it. Don't expect others to do it for you. Don't be ashamed to associated yourself with the article.
Also that last point, #25, spot on. Can only imagine what the reaction would be if Anita wrote this instead. Totally banging on all points, great read and share.
You don't need to be completely immune to something to be dramatically less effected by it.
Some white people experience racism, but it's not something that's widespread and reinforced on a societal level in most places. The fact that you experience a non-zero amount of something doesn't mean everyone is on completely equal footing; the frequency and severity of incidents have to be taken into account as well.
blitzcloud
Banned
Males are not privileged, they're just being less humiliated.
Being hit once in the face compared to five is not a privilege, unless we start by considering ourselves semi-humans.
I'd like to think that privilege comes with positive acceptance from a certain threshold.
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