LTTP: The Last of Us (unmarked spoilers)

Metal B said:
I wasn't on Joel side and many other also, who believe in "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and actually respect Ellie as a person. We got a stupid ending, while everybody else got the "good" ending. Why even write a story in way, were you get a 50% chance of people liking it. A good storyteller try to satisfy as many people as possible. I don't want them to change it, just explain them self better or let more open to interpretation.

If the player isn't meant to be the player, then not have Joel be the avatar! I don't need to play him to understand his motivation. All other forms of medium and even games do this just fine. I even question if the story fits the medium. You get an interactive medium, where people actually can feel like they are a person and reasonable for there action, and don't use it effectively. The story of Last of Us works better on paper then as an interactive story! Just make it a movie.
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This i don't understand, you don't get the bad feeling of being an ass by not saving the world on movies, but you can on games, beacuse of this. I think that the bad taste in your mouth after completing the game it's probably the best achievement of the game, everything in the game tries to amplifies that same feeling, so it's pretty deliberate and well done. It doesn't have to like you, but it's something remarkable and better achieved in game form nonetheless
 
Metal B said:
If the player isn't meant to be the player, then not have Joel be the avatar! I don't need to play him to understand his motivation. All other forms of medium and even games do this just fine. I even question if the story fits the medium. You get an interactive medium, where people actually can feel like they are a person and reasonable for there action, and don't use it effectively. The story of Last of Us works better on paper then as an interactive story! Just make it a movie.
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The player is meant to be Joel - but Joel isn't an avatar. He's a character. This really irked me in some reviews, this isn't a choose your own adventure tale. You are playing as someone with their own thoughts, motivations and experiences - Joel is not you at the end of the world and nor should he be.

People who didn't get engrossed in the world, the stakes and the characters will have a problem with the ending.

They're the time of people who get to the sniper rifle and think "here comes a turret section" instead of "Holy shit there's like 50 clickers coming at us" and who upon entering the
surgery room think "What options do I have here" instead of doing the only instinctive, logical thing for Joels character at that point - I blew the doctors away instantly and didn't even think about it.

You knew you were being chased, Joel had just barricaded the door, the one guy had a knife - no wonder so many people found this moment game breaking when they walked around for a bit trying to find some way to interact with people who were never meant to be interacted with. Its a powerful moment a lot of people ruined for themselves. I distinctly remember one review "one can't I save them, walk around them instead!"
Because you are Joel.
 
Keihart said:
This i don't understand, you don't get the bad feeling of being an ass by not saving the world on movies, but you can on games, beacuse of this. I think that the bad taste in your mouth after completing the game it's probably the best achievement of the game, everything in the game tries to amplifies that same feeling, so it's pretty deliberate and well done. It doesn't have to like you, but it's something remarkable and better achieved in game form nonetheless
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Yes you don't get the feeling of not saving the world in a movie, this is why it is a movie and not an interactive medium. Even games can make you fill, like you just watching a story. JRPGs are very goof at this, since there is a clear cut between Gameplay, Story and multiple player characters. But with a action-game like the Last of Us er only play as Joel, we acts as only Joel and we see everything he sees and thinks. We become Joel. instead of only put us into his shoes. That's the power of videogames, but it also limits some kind of stories.

I understand, what you are saying and I have no problem with what Joel did at the end of the story. It makes sense for the character. I don't like Joel and this possible what the developers wanted to archive. But there is just no punch at the end. He doesn't go over the edge. He doesn't kill a bunch of innocent people just to get to Ellie. He doesn't sell his soul for her. Some people actually like what Joel did. But this shouldn't happen, if the developers want the players to despise him. He should become a true monster at the end, finally corrupted by the diseased world. But the ending and the tapes just weakening this. Naughty Dog didn't had the balls to make him the villain at the end. Since Joel can't do wrong (and we want a sequel of course)!

But a story still needs a good pay off. We tell story, not because of there realism. It all about about a meaning, we want to give to others (even if it just feelings like joy or fear). Something we take away from it. A story of an old jerk ending as an old jerk is easy. There isn't nothing remarkable about it. But a tell about an old jerk, who very logical changes to an better person, this is actually hard and there is something to learn for the audience.
If you want to create a story about a guy, who doesn't change, then you have go more extreme to impress the audience. But the Last of Us just doesn't go there. The story ends realistic and logical for the character, but nor very interesting for the audience. Again: "An old jerk turns out to be an old jerk. Surprise!".
 
modest-genius said:
The player is meant to be Joel - but Joel isn't an avatar. He's a character. This really irked me in some reviews, this isn't a choose your own adventure tale. You are playing as someone with their own thoughts, motivations and experiences - Joel is not you at the end of the world and nor should he be.
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Not being a characters doesn't mean, you aren't the character. That's the magic of the human skill empathy. We can put as into another character as if we were this person. That's how story-telling works. Even if i'm not Neo in the Matrix, i can feel the same feeling like him, since i feel empathy for him. So if he is afraid or feels competent, i feel it too. In games you can have an even stronger connection, then in other mediums. Thanks to it interactive nature. But you have to be careful to not break the spell. Again JRPGs again get away with it, since the game have a clear cut. They switch empathy on and out. That's why nobody thought about saving Aerith with a Phoenix Down as her death happens in game.

The Last of Us puts us in Joels shoes for very long, but at the end of the story Naught Dog breaks the spell for 50% of the players. I didn't feel any empathy for Joel anymore and so didn't felt to continue playing. This can be great for a story, but for a game, which wants me to go through another level, this is poison. Naught Dog wants me to hate him, but still play as him? This why i don't think the developers thought this section through.

And if i'm not to meant to be Joel, why let me kill the doctors? Because i didn't want to, Still the game doesn't let me do anything else. Why give me a choice, if there is only one choice? So i feel like Joel has no other choice? This would be great, if would actually feel any empathy for this asshole!
 
Metal B said:
And if i'm not to meant to be Joel. Why let me kill the doctors? Because i didn't want to, Still the game doesn't let me do anything else. Why give me a choice, if there is only one choice? So i feel like Joel has no other choice? This would be great, if would actually feel any empathy for this asshole!
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Technicaly, you don't have to kill all the doctors.
I shot in the knee of the doctor holding the scalpel. I pointed the gun towards the other doctors and they retreated to the wall behind them. Then I took Ellie.
 
The first truly great game ND have made since Crash Team Racing. After the Uncharted series I really didn't have high expectations for this game. I expected an average game with high production values and a story that is good by video game standards but would have been mediocre as a movie. Hey, that's what Naughty Dog have made me expect from their games for some time now.

What I got was something else entirely. I was pretty blown away to be honest. Both in the gameplay and story department. I think the gameplay was very fun and satisfying. Really good and well implemented mechanics. As for the story, it's one of the only game stories I genuinely cared about. I think the writing was brilliant and had some of the best characters I've ever seen in any game. I really liked and cared about Ellie. It was a really memorable game and will stick with me for a long time. It came out in the same year as GTA V so it wasn't my game of the year, but it was certainly up there and perhaps did a better job of surpassing my expectations than any other game last year.

Oh yeah and Winter was by far the best part of the game. The Ellie gameplay segments were honestly my favourite in the entire game, and this part of the game also had many of the most memorable scenes. The entirety of Winter was full of holy shit moments.

The ending of the game kinda made me feel sick. The part where the game takes control out of my hands and makes me stab the doctor pissed me off so much. I didn't want to sacrifice Ellie as I too cared about her, but the way Joel went about it didn't make me feel good. But that's ok. That was the point. It was Joel's story, not mine. The fact I actually cared about what just happened is testament to just what The Last of Us managed to accomplish. I actually gave a shit about the story and characters. I'm not lying when I say that's not an easy thing for a game to do for me. If nothing else the ending makes me very hungry for the sequel. I look forward to finding out if a cure will ever happen, is humanity doomed forever, what's going to happen to Joel and Ellie's relationship from here, and will Joel get what's coming to him? Hopefully in the sequel we get to play the entire(or at least most) of the game as Ellie.
 
Kuldar said:
Technicaly, you don't have to kill all the doctors.
I shot in the knee of the doctor holding the scalpel. I pointed the gun towards the other doctors and they retreated to the wall behind them. Then I took Ellie.
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Some might argue that Joel has to kill at least one of the doctors because that's just how messed up he is, but after taking out so many armed fireflies and massacring dozens of other people throughout the game, I honestly think the doctor killing at the end was unnecessary and actually detracted from the overall sense of realism in the game.

It's splitting hairs, of course, and I doubt it'd happen. but If they could tinker with the PS4 remake of The Last of Us so that a shot to the knee/hand/arm etc would be enough to get that first doctor out of the way (they die even if you just try to wound them) I think the ending would still be just as powerful. As messed up as he is, even Joel doesn't need to kill doctors with their backs to the wall and only a tiny scalpel in their hands.

It's only natural that Marlene should die, though; Joel doesn't need to take chances with that one. ;-)
 
Metal B said:
Not being a characters doesn't mean, you aren't the character. That's the magic of the human skill empathy. We can put as into another character as if we were this person. That's how story-telling works. Even if i'm not Neo in the Matrix, i can feel the same feeling like him, since i feel empathy for him. So if he is afraid or feels competent, i feel it too. In games you can have an even stronger connection, then in other mediums. Thanks to it interactive nature. But you have to be careful to not break the spell. Again JRPGs again get away with it, since the game have a clear cut. They switch empathy on and out. That's why nobody thought about saving Aerith with a Phoenix Down as her death happens in game.

The Last of Us puts us in Joels shoes for very long, but at the end of the story Naught Dog breaks the spell for 50% of the players. I didn't feel any empathy for Joel anymore and so didn't felt to continue playing. This can be great for a story, but for a game, which wants me to go through another level, this is poison. Naught Dog wants me to hate him, but still play as him? This why i don't think the developers thought this section through.

And if i'm not to meant to be Joel, why let me kill the doctors? Because i didn't want to, Still the game doesn't let me do anything else. Why give me a choice, if there is only one choice? So i feel like Joel has no other choice? This would be great, if would actually feel any empathy for this asshole!
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Neo was something of a blank slate, which is why Reeves was so perfect for the role (in the first film at least). It's not a great example.

The game gives you as many choices as Joel's character allows for. Why can't you try to reason with packs of human hunters? Because that's not what joel would do. Same for the choice at the end not being a choice, it's where the story wants to go and you get to pull the trigger which connects you with the moment physcially. It adds a hell of a lot of impact.

That's the point of the interaction, to connect you, not to give you a choice.
 
Marjar said:
And then of course there's Joel, who turns into a complete psychopathic maniac at the end. I know a lot of people think the ending is amazing, even perfect for some, but I really hated it. So much so that I was really close to just turning off my PS3 and shelving the game for good. I didn't want to play as Joel anymore. He becomes completely despicable, and I honestly just wanted him dead. I know the ending is supposed to be morally gray and not all sunshine and lollipops, but it not only left me dissatisfied, but also made it feel like the entire 13 hours of game I played through was practically meaningless.
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It may sound high-brow, but that really is why I applaud the ending. The whole game revolves around subjects of normative ethics. You're forced to see and do the things someone choosing what Joel did. It is very powerful. It's not about what you would do, it's about understanding why others do what they do. It's not about agreeing with it, but there's no reason not to try and understand it. Putting ourselves in other people's shoes like that helps us understand and explain. It doesn't excuse or warrant agreeing, but a better understanding of the way people work is always interesting.

As for having to play the scene where you take Ellie with you; it's impact is the point of an interactive medium. I turned around and checked the door behind me, because I was wondering if this was a choice. But I realized it wasn't, and I realized how detrimental binary choice systems in a situation like that is. But I also learnt to realize that this isn't *my* story. It's like the end of Shadow of The Colossus. It's the fact that you have to play out someone else's actions that's the impact. You're not merely watching it, but you're sort of becoming Joel's avatar. When you do it, you process it differently than just seeing it happen. I'm sure it causes a vehement reaction in some. It didn't it me. It imposed a greater impact and understanding.
 
Kuldar said:
Technicaly, you don't have to kill all the doctors.
I shot in the knee of the doctor holding the scalpel. I pointed the gun towards the other doctors and they retreated to the wall behind them. Then I took Ellie.
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Cool, if this works. But it is still not a thing, i was expecting to be possible. The Last of Us isn't a game about talking prisoners alive and normally the NPCs would die, no matter where i hit them.
 
I really dont get why people think Joel decision was that immoral. Thats actually quite scary to me seeing such a different point of view, and so gennerally. Maybe my mind works pretty different about this stuff.

But I do think Joel acted the best way (and the hardest) that he could. Ill try to explain why:
The entire game Joel have to face humans in desperate situations, and almost every encounter of the game shows how the humanity can be generally mean, full of bandits and with no sense of honor or compassion when it comes to save their own asses. Ellie on the other side was a little girl with a different heart, taking care of him, and even knowing where she was going and what would happen (in the end feels like she knew). Why her life has less value then the life off all the others? No one, not even the Fireflyes showed compassion to her, they were actually deceiving her. The game kind show that the importance of a life is not only about numbers (1 to save hundreds) but a lot more complex then this.

I like however how the end is so moraliatic debatable.
 
Why don't people get the doctor scene? Until then you have been Joel and so could place all blame on him as a character. You've murdered dozens of people because they were 'survivors' just like you and they are all about taking what they need, when they want and how they want. Then you are placed into a situation where you have no choice and the people you are about to kill are innocent of anything but wanting to save humanity. It was a brilliant and thought provoking moment. You know exactly what Joel would do and you have no choice but to do it. You can no longer hide from yourself behind a polygonal character.
 
Bold One said:
I have a piece of advice for you OP and in fact anyone who just finished a game and has the irrational urge to assault the -post a topic- button.

Take a week out and really think about what you just experienced, don't let what just experienced provoke your baser and most immediate reactions or prejudices, let it all sink in, think it through, critique your conclusions and analyse why you arrived at those conclusions.

Then perhaps you can enter a discussion regarding the merits of a piece of work.

Not that your initial post or opinion is invalid.
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Then check and see if there aren't 17 other threads where basically the same exact arguments were made, maybe.
 
The doctor scene
at the end really helped hammer home the type of person Joel is. He's selfish. Rightly so too, he's lost too many people he cared about to just let Ellie go.
 
Marjar said:
I just can't get behind the logic of possibly dooming humanity for one child. Maybe it's just because I've never experienced having a child or something, but it just seemed wrong to me.

And I realize that's the point, I guess I just don't really like the point.
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Same.

You're not alone on this one, I share the same opinion. Especially because it's largely hinted that Ellie knew full well this would be the outcome and decided to go through it anyway and Joel decided to override it just 'cause.
 
Marjar said:
I just can't get behind the logic of possibly dooming humanity for one child. Maybe it's just because I've never experienced having a child or something, but it just seemed wrong to me.

And I realize that's the point, I guess I just don't really like the point.
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Just dipping in here, but the bolded bit is the essence of humanity.
 
The ending is meant to be ambiguous in the vein of No Country for Old Men and The Road. If you're trying to find a perfectly defensible position on it then you're fighting a losing battle. The point was that by dooming mankind, Joel had actually saved their humanity.

There's a big difference between the two.
 
Aurongel said:
The ending is meant to be ambiguous in the vein of No Country for Old Men and The Road. If you're trying to find a perfectly defensible position on it then you're fighting a losing battle. The point was that by dooming mankind, Joel had actually saved their humanity.

There's a big difference between the two.
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This, this, a thousand times this.
 
I'm nearly done with my Survival ng+ run and I don't agree with you OP but I can see where you are coming from. As more people have already mentioned this is one of those games that stays a bit longer in your mind after finishing the game.

It's as Bill puts it: "It's the normal people that scare me, you of all people should know that Joel". Why should he trust the fireflies and lose another "daughter".

I also agree with the other point made by other posters that you are experiencing the story through the character Joel and are confined to his traits and personality.
 
Kimosabae said:
What a disgusting quote.
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? Story tellers should be true to their characters, not audiences expectations of who the characters should be or who they want them to be. If they tried to please as many people as possible then every story would appeal to the lowest common denominator, and would be homogenized in an attempt to 'please everybody'. Storytelling isn't about pleasing anybody, it's about telling a story.

Edit: nvm saw you said that about the other guy. Yeah, it was a pretty silly thing for him to say.
 
After thinking about this a while, I've become a bit more understanding of the ending, but at the same time, I cannot for the life of me have any empathy towards Joel or believe what he did was right.

And I think that's where the ending soured me. Am I supposed to like Joel, or am I supposed to think he's a completely disgusting human being? Because if it's the former then they certainly completely failed at that. The whole thing makes it seem like Joel is only "saving" Ellie for himself, instead of actually saving her if that makes any sense. It comes off as a sickening relationship as opposed to a truly loving one, like there's some Stockholm syndrome stuff going on between Joel and Ellie.

I might replay it down the line and maybe even try out hard, but yeah the ending still leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
 
Marjar said:
After thinking about this a while, I've become a bit more understanding of the ending, but at the same time, I cannot for the life of me have any empathy towards Joel or believe what he did was right.

And I think that's where the ending soured me. Am I supposed to like Joel, or am I supposed to think he's a completely disgusting human being? Because if it's the former then they certainly completely failed at that. The whole thing makes it seem like Joel is only "saving" Ellie for himself, instead of actually saving her if that makes any sense. It comes off as a sickening relationship as opposed to a truly loving one, like there's some Stockholm syndrome stuff going on between Joel and Ellie.

I might replay it down the line and maybe even try out hard, but yeah the ending still leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
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You're not 'supposed' to think only one thing, they present a complex situation with complex characters. The reason it's so good is many empathize with Joel and there are just as many that condemn him. The story obviously touched on something very potent for people to have such strong reactions to it.

I don't think there was anything 'twisted' about their relationship. Joel might have been a little selfish in that his actions were mostly so he wouldn't have to go through losing someone again...but the Fireflies were going to kill Ellie without giving her a choice and so Joel acted by saving Ellie and giving her the chance to live her life. Joel valued humanity over human kind, because he didn't think it was worth saving if the only people left alive think nothing of killing a girl without even giving her a choice.
 
Stop thinking about how you think the ending is supposed to make you feel and just continue to focus on how you do feel. Then think about why you feel the way you feel.
 
The ending of this game pissed me off too. Fuck Joel. I hope Ellie discovers his lie and runs off and leaves that dude to die. Ellie was trying to make her mother proud.
 
Fancy Clown said:
I think that's a pretty reductive way of looking at it. I'm familiar with your love of Uncharted 3 (and agree with most of your points regarding it) so I know you like the interactive 'moments', but Summer does so much so well. The beginning of Boston (lame tutorial sections aside) was amazing at interactive storytelling, as it let you explore the city and find all sorts of optional things on your own that really tell the story of games world. And the brilliant moment where the game teaches you how to aim and shoot a weapon by letting you put a guy out of his misery is a perfect example of organic, interactive, storytelling.

Summer was all about laying the groundworks for the characters relationships, and the world, and in that it succeeded amazingly. It makes sense for the game to be a bunch of fights in Summer (that were all brilliantly done and fun on their own right, such as the hotel, escaping the armored vehicle, and the sniper battle). And there were so many moments of brilliant in game, non-linear storytelling like when you come out of the sewers and you are just free to explore this huge neighborhood and piece together it's story, while also stumbling upon little character moments like Sam and Ellie playing darts.

I agree the second half of the game is better, but that's simply because it built upon the foundations that Summer lay down. The gameplay and storytelling that each chapter used was perfectly suited to what it was trying to accomplish. Ultimately, Summer was about what showing the stakes of what having someone you care about in this world means (as represented by the foil characters Bill, and Henry and Sam) while living in a relentlessly brutal world (as shown by the myriad of harrowing situations, the Pittsburgh hunters, the infected, the sewers, etc). And then the second half of the game is all about the characters making choices and cementing their relationship after weighing the costs that were demonstrated in the first half, so it makes sense you have more moments of agency and control in the latter segments.

Edit: typed this all up on mobile so I hope it's coherent.
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I was playing TLoU again and as I went through Summer I certainly began to apprecaite it more.

There was a "City 17" Vibe to it that I had not realized before, specifically at the start with the citizens being forced out of the building.

Bill's Town is great, as is most of Boston. I guess if I stepped back to analyze Summer, my only real problem is how Pittsburgh seems to drag on.

I overreacted before, it isn't a question of disliking Summer overall, it's that a few segements seem to last longer than I wold have preferred. That doesn't make Summer a bad sequence, not at all. It's just personally I find it to be the weakest of the seasons.
 
LastNac said:
I was playing TLoU again and as I went through Summer I certainly began to apprecaite it more.

There was a "City 17" Vibe to it that I had not realized before, specifically at the start with the citizens being forced out of the building.

Bill's Town is great, as is most of Boston. I guess if I stepped back to analyze Summer, my only real problem is how Pittsburgh seems to drag on.

I overreacted before, it isn't a question of disliking Summer overall, it's that a few segements seem to last longer than I wold have preferred. That doesn't make Summer a bad sequence, not at all. It's just personally I find it to be the weakest of the seasons.
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Glad you're liking it more! Yeah, the beginning definitely have me City 17 vibes as well.

I can see how you think some sections, like Pittsburgh, drag on. I just like how relentless it is.

I don't know if I could qualify it as the weakest season, but the other seasons definitely have the more interesting story beats and experiment more with gameplay (like the horse and wounded Joel in Fall and playing as Ellie in Winter). Winter I can say without a doubt was my favorite season though.
 
LastNac said:
Question, am I crazy or can hunters actually block Joel's 2x4 swings with their own 2x4?

I feel like this happened.
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Yeah that definitely happens sometimes. Pretty sure I said holy shit out loud first time I saw their weapons clash. Didn't expect to see anything that "theatrical" with the combat system.
 
Marjar said:
I just can't get behind the logic of possibly dooming humanity for one child. Maybe it's just because I've never experienced having a child or something, but it just seemed wrong to me.

And I realize that's the point, I guess I just don't really like the point.
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It's been discussed a lot in several threads about the game, but i really don't feel like it was humanity's salvation. A lot of factors would've been involved, and the game by itself tells you the real future of the remaining people are the colonies like the one Tommy and his wife sustain. A vaccine for the cordiceps? mass production of it? would the fireflies be able to do it? what about the political struggle if they actually developed it? it's not that simple as just Ellie.

Anyway, i really feel it's one of the best games regarding characterization. I don't think i've ever cared so much about some people on a videogame, so i'm the complete opposite to your experience there.

for me it's a beautiful game.
 
Catalix said:
Yeah that definitely happens sometimes. Pretty sure I said holy shit out loud first time I saw their weapons clash. Didn't expect to see anything that "theatrical" with the combat system.
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Makes me excited about the aspect of sword fighting in Uncharted 4.
 
LastNac said:
Makes me excited about the aspect of sword fighting in Uncharted 4.
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I've always wanted some form of melee weapons in Uncharted. Swashbuckling would be great. I loved the contextual melee weapons in Uncharted 3--nothing more satisfying than knocking some dude out with a big ass Tuna.
 
Fancy Clown said:
I've always wanted some form of melee weapons in Uncharted. Swashbuckling would be great. I loved the contextual melee weapons in Uncharted 3--nothing more satisfying than knocking some dude out with a big ass Tuna.
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Uncharted_fish.jpg
 
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