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[Man-is-Obsolete]

No it wouldn't; BK:N&B bombed on the 360 with a huge userbase and a big marketing push from MS. Max doesn't appear to have sold very well on the Xbone, even to that desperate for titles launch drought audience. The Sly HD collection sold poorly on the PS3, tearaway sold like crap on the Vita, etc etc etc.

Yes, Mario is the pinnacle of the platforming genre, but the platforming genre is self-evidently not what PS4 / Xbone early adopters want to play.

I think you are cherry picking a little bit. Sly 4 did sell well on PS3, LBP franchise is over a 10 million at this point, and there are plenty of success stories on PSN/XBLA.

By your logic let's say the Wii U owners don't want to play platformers either since Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze sold only 130k both retail and digitally in the US in it's first month, and 84k in Japan before it fell out of the top 20. Which isn't far from how well Sly Cooper 4 did. Though I get it that DK has longer legs because it is obviously a huge brand, but let's not act like platformers can't be successful on anything but a Nintendo console.

http://www.joystiq.com/2014/03/13/donkey-kong-country-tropical-freeze-sales-reach-130k-in-eight-d/

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=787295

 

[StuBurns]

I don't think SMB did sell particularly well on XBLA given how vocally disappointed Team Meat were with their entire dealings with MS.

They were unhappy with MS for other reasons, the game sold very well for an XBLA title. Their main complaint was the brutal submission guidelines and MS's communication regarding release windows and cert.

LBP had an extremely big push, but is still not considered a top-tier Sony IP (and I'd be surprised if LBP3 is announced anytime soon).
Platform fans were extremely critical of its 'floatiness' too, which is a shame, because I actually liked it.

Not considered top tier by who? It's not Uncharted, God of War or Gran Turismo, but it's probably fourth behind them. There will be more LBP, the next game is already announced actually, it's LBP Hub, but Media Molecule are working on a new IP for PS4, so it's out of their hands.

What it did have is a solid platform for UGC, and one of the better and more memorable mascots introduced since the SNES era, and probably the best mascot character Sony have ever introduced. Really, they should have doubled down and had Playstation Home use Sackboys and gone full on second life with it.

I don't know about Home, but I did think they should have added it to PS3 itself, instead of picking an avatar, everyone makes a Sackperson if you know what I mean.

Ironic given the topic to bring up sales of mediocre ports or average games justifying not releasing better titles on a platform.

I don't know about ironic, the Wii U got the same treatment every launch system gets, a bunch of ports. PS4 and XBO were no different. Publishers slapped the PC version of their games on them, which is not a lot of effort given the shared x86 architecture.

It's true that you have to seed and nurture an install-base, but it's the responsibility of the platform holder, not third parties. It wasn't Ubisoft's job to make the Wii U viable, it was Nintendo's. And yes, even though I am completely confident a very high quality platformer like Mario 3D World would sell on PS360, the reason publishers don't try is because the first parties haven't proved it's worth the risk, that is a failing of Sony and MS, not the third parties.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

By your logic let's say the Wii U owners don't want to play platformers either since Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze sold only 130k both retail and digitally in the US in it's first month, and 84k in Japan before it fell out of the top 20. Which isn't far from how well Sly Cooper 4 did.

Are you saying Sly 4 did well on a userbase of 80 million to sell about the same as a game on a userbase of 5 million, or that DKC did poorly on a userbase of 5 million to sell about the same as a game on a userbase of 80 million?

EDIT:

They were unhappy with MS for other reasons, the game sold very well for an XBLA title. Their main complaint was the brutal submission guidelines and MS's communication regarding release windows and cert.

We obviously don't have access to those sales, but Team Meat have been vocally critical of XBLA sales, not just how Ms treat indies;
http://www.destructoid.com/super-meat-boy-dev-xbla-is-no-longer-a-way-to-success-246963.phtml
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/01/beefy-super-meat-boy-pc-outsells-360/

 

[Metallix87]

By your logic let's say the Wii U owners don't want to play platformers either since Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze sold only 130k both retail and digitally in the US in it's first month, and 84k in Japan before it fell out of the top 20. Which isn't far from how well Sly Cooper 4 did. Though I get it that DK has longer legs because it is obviously a huge brand, but let's not act like platformers can't be successful on anything but a Nintendo console.

That likely has more to do with the overabundance of platformers on Wii U right now. Nintendo put out too many of them early on, without providing enough options to keep the library diverse.

 

[doniewhalberg]

The comment was a response to asking if there would be any Wii U or 3DS games at Ubisoft's booth this year.

and

"We won't be showing off any Nintendo games at E3 this year"

makes more sense like this. I imagine they'll still be shipping the obligatory just dance title and perhaps a port of the ps3/360 AC game, they just don't care enough to actually have any wii u's set up at their booth, or to be showing the nintendo versions at their booth.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Ironic given the topic to bring up sales of mediocre ports or average games justifying not releasing better titles on a platform.

EDIT:


Ratchet and Clank is about as much of a platformer as Jet Force Gemini is.
LBP had an incredible push, and at a time when PS only owners were really hurting for exclusives.
Sly 4 didn't do okay.

RC did 1.25 million
LBP did 4.5 million iirc
Sly 4 debuted on NPD at 100k which was better than expected but still a bomb iirc

The thing is Sony has cultivated an audience for 3D platformers. I don't mind though. There are a metric tonne of outstanding 2d indie platformers.

 

[Metallix87]

There are a metric tonne of outstanding 2d indie platformers.

I loathe this logic. The indie games of today are definitely not a viable substitute for a high quality title from a top tier dev.

 

[StuBurns]

We obviously don't have access to those sales, but Team Meat have been vocally critical of XBLA sales, not just how Ms treat indies;
http://www.destructoid.com/super-meat-boy-dev-xbla-is-no-longer-a-way-to-success-246963.phtml
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/01/beefy-super-meat-boy-pc-outsells-360/

It says 180k in that article, that's very good for an XBLA game, it's not Braid/Fez numbers, but it's way higher than many.

And the first article is about the 'current' climate (current to the article), not when SMB launched.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

This explains everything.

You have to live how people will dance around these numbers. Ubi can't pay their employees with excuses and rhetoric.

 

[StuBurns]

Ubi can't pay their employees with excuses and rhetoric.

This is a masterful sentence.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

It says 180k in that article, that's very good for an XBLA game, it's not Braid/Fez numbers, but it's way higher than many.

180k for a critical darling and one of the best platformers released ever, on a userbase of 80 million, at a bargain price point.

And you contend that there is a big audience on the 360 / Xbone for a $60 mario game?

 

[Metallix87]

You have to live how people will dance around these numbers. Ubi can't pay their employees with excuses and rhetoric.

The excuses and rhetoric are saved exclusively for Nintendo system owners.

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

Are you saying Sly 4 did well on a userbase of 80 million to sell about the same as a game on a userbase of 5 million, or that DKC did poorly on a userbase of 5 million to sell about the same as a game on a userbase of 80 million?

EDIT:

We obviously don't have access to those sales, but Team Meat have been vocally critical of XBLA sales, not just how Ms treat indies;
http://www.destructoid.com/super-meat-boy-dev-xbla-is-no-longer-a-way-to-success-246963.phtml
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/01/beefy-super-meat-boy-pc-outsells-360/

Well then what are those 5 million people buying, because it obviously isn't 3rd party games?

That likely has more to do with the overabundance of platformers on Wii U right now. Nintendo put out too many of them early on, without providing enough options to keep the library diverse.

So now there is too much competition on the Wii U for Donkey Kong to sell well. I have heard it all.

 

[Turrican3]

Someone needs to make a honest to god "Mario Galaxy" or "Mario 64" clone on PS3/360/PS4/XBO. Then we might see some real numbers.

We already have a somewhat fair comparison though.

I believe Rayman Origins vs New Super Mario Bros Wii (or even Donkey Kong Country Returns) tells us *a lot* about the PS360 audience and their willingness to buy platform games.

Little Big Planet on the other hand... I don't know, it seems to me it has been marketed quite differently from the ordinary 2D (or 2.5D) platform game.

 

[popeutlal]

How did you come to this conclusion?
They'll still have their own games to show at E3.

But most of those were shown last year. But at least they'll have a Zelda trailer... and a few mini game collections.

 

[Shiggy]

180k for a critical darling and one of the best platformers released ever, on a userbase of 80 million, at a bargain price point.

And you contend that there is a big audience on the 360 / Xbone for a $60 mario game?

You really think that Super Meat Boy and Super Mario Bros are comparable? One has very little appeal, is inaccessible, and to most casual gamers not a lot of fun, whereas the other one is easily playable by everyone, has an accessible art style, and is its genre's best.

We already have a somewhat fair comparison though.

I believe Rayman Origins vs New Super Mario Bros Wii (or even Donkey Kong Country Returns) tells us *a lot* about the PS360 audience and their willingness to buy platform games.

Little Big Planet on the other hand... I don't know, it seems to me it has been marketed quite differently from the ordinary 2D (or 2.5D) platform game.

Do we actually have any data for Rayman Origins to make such broad statements? Compared to NSMB and DKCR it didn't sell well on Wii either.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

I loathe this logic. The indie games of today are definitely not a viable substitute for a high quality title from a top tier dev.

I'm glad people aren't as close minded as you are.

You have to live how people will dance around these numbers. Ubi can't pay their employees with excuses and rhetoric.

Indeed. Numbers don't lie. WiiU's user base (90% of the time) is almost irrelevant to third parties when accounting for sales.

 

[prag16]

Let's also not forget that the Wii U didn't have the infrastructure to support DLC at launch.

Are you sure? AC3 and Just Dance 4 had DLC available not long after launch iirc. Zen Pinball also had downloadable tables I believe. Maybe not day 1, but it wasn't six months later like you or somebody else asserted earlier in the topic.

 

[StuBurns]

180k for a critical darling and one of the best platformers released ever, on a userbase of 80 million, at a bargain price point.

And you contend that there is a big audience on the 360 / Xbone for a $60 mario game?

Super Meat Boy is not Mario.

Firstly, the game didn't come out when the 360 had eighty million units in homes, but that's less important than you have to consider sales in relation to other XBLA titles, and it did very well in comparison.

Yes, I have zero doubt that Mario 3D Land would sell well on PS360, or PS4/XBO, or Steam in fact. Sell how well, I don't know, I think it could comfortably do a couple of million. On the previous page someone suggested I said it would sell better on PS360, I did not, obviously a great many Nintendo owners are buying the platform specifically for Nintendo games, on the other two, Nintendo would just be another publisher, but in terms of being successful, I really have no doubt.

All of these examples are really meaningless, even the quality isn't important, it doesn't matter that Bayonetta or Ninja Gaiden Sigma are massively better games than God of War 3, they can't compete with reputation and marketing, and nothing in gaming casts a bigger shadow than Mario.

 

[Metallix87]

You really think that Super Meat Boy and Super Mario Bros are comparable? One has very little appeal, is inaccessible, and to most casual gamers not a lot of fun, whereas the other one is easily playable by everyone, has an accessible art style, and is its genre's best.

I really don't understand why people keep trying to suggest that these indie games are of the same calibur as the titles from the bigger developers. They're not. We've yet to hit that point. Right now, indie games are either aiming to be "artsy", or aiming to mimic popular retro experiences, or both. Very few break from that. Now, these games may be good, but overall they're being extremely overrated for little reason other than to make users feel good about having nothing but indie content to play on their new systems.

 

[Mithos]

I don't know about ironic, the Wii U got the same treatment every launch system gets, a bunch of ports. PS4 and XBO were no different. Publishers slapped the PC version of their games on them, which is not a lot of effort given the shared x86 architecture.

The difference is in the gamers not the hardware or the sub par ports, the Nintendo crowd isn't willing to buy the sub par port but the Xbox and Playstation crowd seemingly are willing to do that, and in the EXTREMELY rare occasion when a port is good to great, it's twice as expensive and 5 months to late.

Long story short, the Nintendo crowd isn't willing to trust the Publisher/developers after 15 years of getting sub par, worst version of the games. For better or for worse.

 

[StuBurns]

The difference is in the gamers not the hardware or the sub par ports, the Nintendo crowd isn't willing to buy the sub par port but the Xbox and Playstation crowd seemingly are willing to do that, and in the EXTREMELY rare occasion when a port is good to great, it's twice as expensive and 5 months to late.

Long story short, the Nintendo crowd isn't willing to trust the Publisher/developers after 15 years of getting sub par, worst version of the games. For better or for worse.

The Wii U versions were worse because it's incredibly hard to make launch games and the CPU is subpar. It's not like developers weren't trying. When a system launches everything's in flux, the libraries are crap, and technical support is in very high demand.

Porting PS4/XBO games was comparatively very easy so the results were better, that's not the fault of the developers, again, that's Nintendo's fault.

 

[Spineker]

Why are 3rd parties abandoning the Wii U?

Because it's dead, at least until it gets a big price cut.

 

[Turrican3]

Do we actually have any data for Rayman Origins to make such broad statements?

Not that I'm aware of, but surely Ubi would have mentioned it like they usually do with their more powerful, multimillion-seller brands had it turned out to be a hit, wouldn't they?

 

[JordanN]

The Wii U versions were worse because it's incredibly hard to make launch games and the CPU is subpar. It's not like developers weren't trying. When a system launches everything's in flux, the libraries are crap, and technical support is in very high demand.

Porting PS4/XBO games was comparatively very easy so the results were better, that's not the fault of the developers, again, that's Nintendo's fault.

Regarding Wii U launch titles, wasn't there an anonymous developer who said they didn't have any documentations to work with? And Nintendo was very slow or didn't listen when they needed help?

Sounded like a horrible situation to be in.

Edit: I think it was this article that goes into detail about working with Nintendo with the Wii U's launch.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Because it's dead, at least until it gets a big price cut.

Price cut ain't going to do much.

Its a GC scenario but worse. Its dead to third parties. Japanese and Western.

You can see Nintendo trying to fund more games or do collabs as a way to soften the loss. They did this in the GC era as well. It doesn't do much but it means some interesting games at least.

 

[Metallix87]

Price cut ain't going to do much.

Its a GC scenario but worse. Its dead to third parties. Japanese and Western.

You can see Nintendo trying to fund more games or do collabs as a way to soften the loss. They did this in the GC era as well. It doesn't do much but it means some interesting games at least.

Nintendo needs to use the collaborations as a means to secure support for next gen, and use the system as a whole as a means to get very comfortable with HD development. The system is likely destined for a 15 - 25 million max user base because of bad decisions from both Nintendo and third parties, so it's best to learn as much as possible from it and ensure next gen goes better overall.

 

[Shiggy]

Not that I'm aware of, but surely Ubi would have mentioned it like they usually do with their more powerful, multimillion-seller brands had it turned out to be a hit, wouldn't they?

What I could find is that Rayman Origins sold 50k in its first month in the US, on all platforms combined. So drawing conclusions on the PS3/360 platformer audience does not seem to make a lot of sense, when it also didn't sell well on Wii.

 

[StuBurns]

Considering they've already basically said their next system is two years away, and they project three point whatever million Wii U's this year, they're probably announcing the replacement next E3, in which case, the Wii U would be very lucky to hit fifteen million.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Nintendo needs to use the collaborations as a means to secure support for next gen, and use the system as a whole as a means to get very comfortable with HD development. The system is likely destined for a 15 - 25 million max user base because of bad decisions from both Nintendo and third parties, so it's best to learn as much as possible from it and ensure next gen goes better overall.

25 million? lol

Bad decisions from third parties......no. Bad decisions from Nintendo yes.

The only third party that seems to have a little beef with Ninty is EA but they ain't regretting after seeing those WiiU sales.

Everything else is just business.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

You really think that Super Meat Boy and Super Mario Bros are comparable? One has very little appeal, is inaccessible, and to most casual gamers not a lot of fun, whereas the other one is easily playable by everyone, has an accessible art style, and is its genre's best.

Given your description of SMB, it really seems like you've not played it.

You should. It is extremely good.

It is also very accessible; even though it has bastard hard levels, so do the Mario games.

I really don't understand why people keep trying to suggest that these indie games are of the same calibur as the titles from the bigger developers. They're not. We've yet to hit that point. Right now, indie games are either aiming to be "artsy", or aiming to mimic popular retro experiences, or both. Very few break from that. Now, these games may be good, but overall they're being extremely overrated for little reason other than to make users feel good about having nothing but indie content to play on their new systems.

Super Meat Boy is a better platformer than a lot of bigger companies output.
Its better than 95% of the mascot platformers on the SNES or Megadrive.

 

[Mithos]

The Wii U versions were worse because it's incredibly hard to make launch games and the CPU is subpar. It's not like developers weren't trying. When a system launches everything's in flux, the libraries are crap, and technical support is in very high demand.

Porting PS4/XBO games was comparatively very easy so the results were better, that's not the fault of the developers, again, that's Nintendo's fault.

It is hard when you run your CPU code on 1 or 2 of the 3 cores indeed (fixed in time for release though), oh you anonymous big french developer you, I wonder who you could be.

And your comment/input do not change what I said about not being willing to buy into sub-par offerings, been getting those for far to long to humor them/willing to "trust" it will get better, get better first then we will see.

 

[Metallix87]

Bad decisions from third parties......no. Bad decisions from Nintendo yes.

The only third party that seems to have a little beef with Ninty is EA but they ain't regretting after seeing those WiiU sales.

Everything else is just business.

You may want to absolve third parties of what they've done for three generations, but I won't.

 

[Y2Kev]

What the hell are you guys even talking about

 

[Shiggy]

Given your description of SMB, it really seems like you've not played it.

You should. It is extremely good.

It is also very accessible; even though it has bastard hard levels, so do the Mario games.

I did, don't worry. It's absolutely inaccessible, has an unappealing art style (imo), and I also don't like how the game controls (feals floaty when jumping).

Super Meat Boy is a better platformer than a lot of bigger companies output.
Its better than 95% of the mascot platformers on the SNES or Megadrive.

Could be. I still prefer every NSMB and SMB title. I even prefer Rayman Origins, which had its own share of problems and was not more than a pretty snorefest.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

You may want to absolve third parties of what they've done for three generations, but I won't.

You may want to absolve Nintendo of what they've done to third parties back in the days, but third parties will not. They jumped ship and now look at where Nintendo is in the home console market.

 

[Metallix87]

What the hell are you guys even talking about

Several topics at once:

1.) Are third parties partly to blame for Nintendo owners not buying their content? Did they make poor business decisions that hurt the Wii U, or is Nintendo fully to blame for the system's woes?

2.) Do indie games provide a viable substitute for high quality platformers from top tier devs?

3.) Is there a viable audience for big budget, $60 platformers on Sony and Microsoft consoles?

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

You may want to absolve Nintendo of what they've done to third parties back in the days, but third parties will not.

The only third party that seems to have a little beef with Ninty is EA but they ain't regretting after seeing those WiiU sales.

Everything else is just business.

So which of these 2 irreconcilable narratives are you running with?

 

[StuBurns]

It is hard when you run your CPU code on 1 or 2 of the 3 cores indeed (fixed in time for release though), oh you anonymous big french developer you, I wonder who you could be.

Do you know how many early PS3 games ran on only the PPE? One of nine cores. If your implication is that Nintendo are being treated worse, you are completely wrong.

And your comment/input do not change what I said about not being willing to buy into sub-par offerings, been getting those for far to long to humor them/willing to "trust" it will get better, get better first then we will see.

Completely true. Buying the best version of CoD Ghosts versus the worst version of CoD Blk Ops 2 is not a fair comparison for the consumer, but it is a fair comparison for the publisher. They did what they could to rush out a launch title, despite the roadblocks, they did what they could, and the results were worse on the Wii U, because it's worse, but again, that's Nintendo's fault.

 

[Metallix87]

You may want to absolve Nintendo of what they've done to third parties back in the days, but third parties will not. They jumped ship and now look at where Nintendo is in the home console market.

I never absolved Nintendo of anything, and your post flies in the face of everything you've been saying. So third parties ARE actually anti-Nintendo now?

 

[sublimit]

A "we can't comment about that right now" would have been more subtle i think.

 

[danmaku]

It is hard when you run your CPU code on 1 or 2 of the 3 cores indeed (fixed in time for release though), oh you anonymous big french developer you, I wonder who you could be.

And your comment/input do not change what I said about not being willing to buy into sub-par offerings, been getting those for far to long to humor them/willing to "trust" it will get better, get better first then we will see.

Too bad those super picky WiiU owners didn't even buy the good ports, like Tekken Tag 2 or NFS: Most Wanted.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Too bad those super picky WiiU owners didn't even buy the good ports, like Tekken Tag 2 or NFS: Most Wanted.

Do late ports generally sell well?

If yes, why do platform owners bother buying time limited exclusivity?

 

[Chuckpebble]

Can someone make a huge spreadsheet of companies that will be showing Nintendo games this year. I'm having a hard time deciding which developers to follow.

 

[StuBurns]

Do late ports generally sell well?

If yes, why do platform owners bother buying time limited exclusivity?

TTT2 launched as early as it possibly could, what do you want exactly? Publishers delaying all the other versions to align with the launch of the Wii U?

CoD Ghosts, BF4 and AssCreed 4 all were 'late ports' on PS4/XBO.

 

[Metallix87]

Too bad those super picky WiiU owners didn't even buy the good ports, like Tekken Tag 2 or NFS: Most Wanted.

Late ports selling poorly? Shocking.

TTT2 launched as early as it possibly could, what do you want exactly? Publishers delaying all the other versions to align with the launch of the Wii U?

Pull a Rayman Legends?

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

CoD Ghosts, BF4 and AssCreed 4 all were 'late ports' on PS4/XBO.

And correspondingly sold much better on other platforms.

 

[StuBurns]

Pull a Rayman Legends?

That was an exclusive that went multiplatform, these examples are all games that are bigger on other platforms, and were always going to do so.

You can't have every notable game release on the same day on all platforms. If a new system comes, it gets games late, it's absurd to completely fuck up launch plans to benefit the least important version of a game.

Again, the Wii U was no different to the other systems, PS4 and XBO had to put up with late ports too. It didn't impede those systems.

And correspondingly sold much better on other platforms.

Earlier you were talking about attach-rates with SMB and the 360's 80 million units sold. Now you seem to think 80 million versus 0 units isn't a meaningful element to game sales? Interesting.

 

[Mithos]

Do you know how many early PS3 games ran on only the PPE? One of nine cores. If your implication is that Nintendo are being treated worse, you are completely wrong.

I doubt any of those PS3 developers went. OOPS!! GUYS I figured out why our CPU code is running so bad, we're only using 1 of 9 cores, where as they did on Wii U. They "knew" when it came to the PS3, but didn't when it came to the Wii U, do they not check what the hell they are doing?

So yes they treat the Nintendo/Wii U as a second class citizen, and the result is obvious, poor ports -> poor sales -> even poorer port -> even worse sales -> abandon ship -> What happened, why noone buying our awesome games?

Too bad those super picky WiiU owners didn't even buy the good ports, like Tekken Tag 2 or NFS: Most Wanted.

I did get NFS: MW WHEN it didn't cost €60 in stores anymore, while the PS360 versions were €25 at the same time, but then again 5 month to late minimum.

 

[StuBurns]

I doubt any of those PS3 developers went. OOPS!! GUYS I figured out why our CPU code is running so bad, we're only using 1 of 9 cores, where as they did on Wii U. They "knew" when it came to the PS3, but didn't when it came to the Wii U, do they not check what the hell they are doing?

If that's the case, it is a fault with documentation for the system. Developers don't actually look at components, they only know what you tell them about the architecture, if they were under the impression the system had two cores instead of three, Nintendo colossally fucked up somewhere.

So yes they treat the Nintendo/Wii U as a second class citizen, and the result is obvious, poor ports -> poor sales -> even poorer port -> even worse sales -> abandon ship -> What happened, why noone buying our awesome games?

All launch systems are treated as second class citizens. It's up to the developer to ship a box that's so powerful and easy to use that even with very little effort, the results trump the competition. Nintendo failed to do that.

No one is wondering why games aren't selling on Wii U. The system is the most embarrassing bomb since the Dreamcast. And that is all Nintendo's fault, not Ubisoft, or any other publisher.