Seven Dead, Several Hospitalized in Isla Vista Mass Shooting

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Why are people treating "mental illness" like some static completely internal thing? People's mental and emotional development is driven by their interaction with other people and it's pretty clear that he was interacting with some toxic communities who's dialogue reinforced and fed his existing issues. I'm not going to say that he for sure wouldn't have snapped and killed people if he hadn't had these other people reinforcing his warped perspective, but man, it couldn't have helped that's for sure
 
Stay classy Daily Mail:

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Holy invasion of privacy batman. Can't believe they are stalking this girl.
 
Neither are young men who find solace in blowing themselves up for a cause. Yet we are very much willing to prop up religion or politics as a motivation there.

Yeah when the Fort Hood shootings happened it took quite awhile for people to switch from political motivations to mental issues.
 
One of Fox News' "experts" hypothesized that the guy went on a killing spree because of "homosexual impulses."

These fucking people...
 
Err, why can't the "reason behind his misogyny" be that "he was fucking insane" again? That's probably the most sensible reasoning for someone to go that far off of the deep end.

Because boiling it down to "his misogyny developed from his mental illness" is such a handwaving view of more serious issues involving other factors for his misogyny.

He's not the only one with this mentality and it's precisely why we need to target it and make a discussion come from it.
 
I wish for a thread to deal exclusively on how the media covers the story

With cover from the papers and etc

Since i dont live in US i get curious on this topic
 
One of Fox News' "experts" hypothesized that the guy went on a killing spree because of "homosexual impulses."

These fucking people...

Seriously? Like, the first thing you hear about this guy is that he did this because he couldn't have sex with women, and the thought is "homosexual impulses"? Oy.
 
Because boiling it down to "his misogyny developed from his mental illness" is such a handwaving view of more serious issues involving other factors for his misogyny.

He's not the only one with this mentality and it's precisely why we need to target it and make a discussion come from it.

I think a psychological issue that prevents someone from feeling empathy is more likely to result in someone becoming a misogynist, than misogyny (reading message boards, talking with people who share that view, consuming media with misogynist views etc.) breeding mental illness.

I don't think reading PUA stuff leads men to hating women anymore than playing video games leads to violence. Do violent people seek out violent games? Sure. Will playing CounterStrike make a normal, well adjusted person more likely to kill? Did Catcher in the Rye kill John Lennon?
 
Seriously? Like, the first thing you hear about this guy is that he did this because he couldn't have sex with women, and the thought is "homosexual impulses"? Oy.

Yep. This isn't uncommon by Fox News standards, mind you. Their "experts" have a history of being complete idiots.
 
I think you misinterpreted what I said. Or are you claiming that all MRA groups are radical?

I dont think MRA groups are radical, but not tying Rodger's misogyny to the crime he committed is intellectually dishonest. He paints these groups in a bad light, however good intentioned they may be or not be. I dont know, I'm not active on those communities.
 
I think I agree with Squiddy, somewhat, in that the misogny was definitely a product of who he was, but I agree with you (and very much disagree with him) in that, given it was the form his issues manifested in and did so in such an extreme manner, and is terrifyingly not an uncommon view within our society (even if not taken to the extremes that he did), is equally as vital to consider/discuss (if not more so, as a result),

There are some key points which suggest that it is more. First, we have his insecurity about his height, stature, race, and his belief that he lacked any talents. He valued appearance above reality and in his mind, these made him different and made it impossible for him to fit in. In turn, he hated these people who were taller, and better-built than he was. This initial spite precedes any indication of misogny, yet is something that he constantly refers to throughout (blond hair is another trait he envies), and 'vexed' him, partly as it made him believe others were better than him (fueling his insecurity), while also later serving as fuel to his hatred of women (as he believed women were attracted to taller/better-built people because he was incapable of acquiring a partner). Initially, he could overlook this, as he desired to become an 'obnoxious jerk' by relieving himself of his own sense of identity by abandoning his own likes and identity to fit in with those around him who had attention, and were popular. He responded to any perceived embarassment with great fury, completely lacking a sense of perspective.

Eventually, as puberty began, the popular thing to do was to meet with 'pretty girls' and he hated his failure, and inability to do so, taking girls' apathy to him as a great insult, misinterpretting the reason for it as he disregarded his lack of effort, implied awkwardness, and spitefulness, for the 'status' of the 'alpha male'. From here, he focused continuously on his hatred from women and his blatantly extreme misogny developed further through bullying, perceived (yet not actual) rejection, isolation, spitefulness, envy, greed, hatred for authority/rules, hatred for the wealthy, insecurity, delusions of superiority (and I know this appears to contradict with insecurity, but he was simultaneously both, somehow), without reason. He was desperate to belong with anything, hating Catacylsm because it brought with it people who were popular and had lives outside of the game and had absolutely no sense of empathy, being sad about the death of his step-mother's father but being pleased because it meant she'd leave. He viewed any arguments as a competition to be won, which he did so by throwing a tantrum.

Now, of course, he was a misogynist, no doubt. He had a 'final solution' for women, he thought they should be caged, were 'mentally ill', drawn solely to status and were rejecting him in their refusal to hook-up with him, felt an entitlement to other women because of his status (and made get-rich-quick schemes believing getting richer was his only hope, as they'd never be attracted to him), constantly berated them as 'sluts' for having relationships with others, and viewed them solely for their sexual aspects. He objectified them. He felt robbed by women. He hated, and despised anybody with even an association to women. He didn't care for women as people (actually, come to think of it, he doesn't care for anybody as a person, only in how they relate to him). Ultimately, he murdered six people (I don't know if the roomates are included in this number as I've seen it presented in both manners) and wounded multiple others. While he was extreme, some of these disgusting attitudes are prevelant in society (the 'slut' women, and 'player' men is a particularly toxic and disgusting attitude).

The misogyny needs to be focused on. It is crucial, and central to him. It has just as much importance as the numerous underlying issues, but I think it would very much be too dismissive to consider it as the only thing. Such a spiteful person, who constantly believed he should have been the best, who felt a catharsis in driving to buy a lotto ticket which he had willed to be 'the one', who fantasized about flaying others, being the dictator of the world, being envied by all, recoiled to even the slightest embarassment unproportionally, was unable to relate to anyone, was completely self-centred, hated and fought against any rules, and saw everything as a slight against him (even simply not smiling at him was a grand injustice) was never going to have a happy life without severe intervention from an extremely young age, and given that he actually had psychiatric intervention repeatedly, I really don't know if anything could have been done. Were he not to focus his hatred on women, it could have been authority, it could have been those in the past who 'wronged him' for the crime of being popular/having friends, it could have been against the bullies, it could have been against those of different races (although he is racist already), it could have been against his friends, it could have been his parents, it could have simply been himself, it could have been anyone that he would blame for not being flawless, and the greatest person to ever live. In fact, he states as much, that he would get revenge on anybody who insulted him as he was a fighter, and even sought revenge on his friends, even if virtual, for long past apparent transgressions involving not inviting him over while they were playing at times (despite being open about it). Ultimately, however (as you are suggesting), it was against women. He was misogynistic, and he blamed women for all of his failings. We could speculate about anything that could have happened, but this is what did happen, and he reinforced his views through the internet, media, and historical reading, his flawed perception of events, and his spite. Underlying issues are important, certainly, but his misogyny is equally as important (particularly, as mentioned, because of the prominence), and it seems unwise to de-emphasize just how significant it was to him. EDIT: Also, since it's been noted, he was mentally ill, or had a personality disorder, or had something incredibly wrong with his perception of the world from a very young age, but he, ultimately, is one hundred percent culpable for what he has done, and the hatred he spewed. I don't think it's fair to state that acknowledgeing mental illness is suddenly hand-waving him of responsibility and shutting down all avenues of discussion (but there are, certainly and unfortunately, people who are doing that, this I can agree with).

EDIT 2: I've been quoted now, and the mistake will remain in them, but I've just realised the second link was another which was posted twice accidentally. This is what it should have been: http://i.imgur.com/gkYNtt8.png regarding his differences. I've editted it now, but just for anybody reading those quotes confused about the relevancy.

This is also relevant, regarding how he hated others being with people that weren't him: http://i.imgur.com/3Wacxqa.png but can't fit it naturally back into the post.

This is a great post, excellent insight
 
With these incidents people desperately cling to the idea of mental illness as an abstract phantom that takes up residence in your brain and presses random buttons, conveniently removing any responsibility from outside influences.

Absolutely. We're all, sane or insane, products of our environment.

His family created an environment where any object he wanted he could have.

Society created an environment where women are an object to possess.

His mental health meant he couldn't process the disconnect of there being objects out there he wasn't automatically entitled to.

I think a psychological issue that prevents someone from feeling empathy is more likely to result in someone becoming a misogynist, than misogyny (reading message boards, talking with people who share that view, consuming media with misogynist views etc.) breeding mental illness.

I don't think reading PUA stuff leads men to hating women anymore than playing video games leads to violence. Do violent people seek out violent games? Sure. Will playing CounterStrike make a normal, well adjusted person more likely to kill? Did Catcher in the Rye kill John Lennon?
I think you're looking at it the wrong way around.

Our violent movies, games and, to a lesser extent, books are also a product of our aggressive and violent society which future killers naturally gravitate to because it resonates with them.

PUA and MRA bullshit is also a product of an entitled and aggressive society towards women which rings true with people who feel they're not getting this object they're meant to have.
 
I think a psychological issue that prevents someone from feeling empathy is more likely to result in someone becoming a misogynist, than misogyny (reading message boards, talking with people who share that view, consuming media with misogynist views etc.) breeding mental illness.
I don't agree that it's the more likely result. I think it's a combination of being surrounded by toxic views while also not being able to properly understand and empathize.

We can't just place it all on mental illness and excuse his mentality because of it. It's a bigger problem than just what he did. It's what allowed him to view women as merely objects that should be his to control.


I don't think reading PUA stuff leads men to hating women anymore than playing video games leads to violence. Do violent people seek out violent games? Sure. Will playing CounterStrike make a normal, well adjusted person more likely to kill? Did Catcher in the Rye kill John Lennon?

It absolutely can lead to toxic views of women far more than video games can lead to violence. The difference is that one is from a real world perspective that encourages disgusting behaviour and treatment of women while the other is a fantasy world that is not encouraged in reality.
 
Lol people really believe that mentally ill people are crazy psychotic killers that need to be caged. You might as well say that most criminals are mentally ill because the only difference between them and him is that his thoughts were documented via video vlogs and the manifesto.

I have a history with psychosis, and although I was paranoid and thought people in public were out to kill me, I didn't have no thoughts of killing people. If anything, I felt very vulnerable and was afraid to leave the house.

If you were to visit a counseling center, a psychiatric center, or a mental hospital I promise that you will not see the 2nd coming of the Joker in most cases. You will just see people who deal with severe mental health issues that prevent them from functioning on a basic level.

Stop using mental health issues as a scapegoat for situations that you don't understand such as these mass shootings. Especially when there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that the shooter was a misogynist who's warped view on women motivated him to commit these crimes.
 
I talk about the phantom of mental illness being used as a catch all term to excuse someone of their actions and pretend that was the sole factor in their motivations.

Okay.

I agree it shouldn't be viewed as the sole factor, but it is a crucial part of his personality. It is very difficult in my mind to completely separate that aspect of him from everything else because surely it is part of what shaped his personality and his reality?

In terms of his misogynistic views, society could have influenced his views, but at the same time. he clearly had problems with forming relationships, and that made him incredibly miserable. As I stated earlier in the thread, if you feel someone has done something that is hurtful to you. there is the potential to be resentful and bitter about what that person has done. He believed women despised him. He states this often.

This is the problem I have: Considering the obvious problems he had forming relationships, why is it more likely that the root cause of his misogyny is society rather than the constant rejection he was getting from women?
 
Lol people really believe that mentally ill people are crazy psychotic killers that need to be caged. You might as well say that most criminals are mentally ill because the only difference between them and him is that his thoughts were documented via video vlogs and the manifesto.

I have a history with psychosis, and although I was paranoid and thought people in public were out to kill me, I didn't have no thoughts of killing people. If anything, I felt very vulnerable and was afraid to leave the house.

If you were to visit a counseling center, a psychiatric center, or a mental hospital I promise that you will not see the 2nd coming of the Joker in most cases. You will just see people who deal with severe mental health issues that prevent them from functioning on a basic level.

Stop using mental health issues as a scapegoat for situations that you don't understand such as these mass shootings. Especially when there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that the shooter was a misogynist who's warped view on women motivated him to commit these crimes.
This "By saying he was mentally ill you are saying all mentally ill people are like him" is a massive distortion of what people are saying. Mental Illness is a wide-ranging net.
 
Lol people really believe that mentally ill people are crazy psychotic killers that need to be caged. You might as well say that most criminals are mentally ill because the only difference between them and him is that his thoughts were documented via video vlogs and the manifesto.

I have a history with psychosis, and although I was paranoid and thought people in public were out to kill me, I didn't have no thoughts of killing people. If anything, I felt very vulnerable and was afraid to leave the house.

If you were to visit a counseling center, a psychiatric center, or a mental hospital I promise that you will not see the 2nd coming of the Joker in most cases. You will just see people who deal with severe mental health issues that prevent them from functioning on a basic level.

Stop using mental health issues as a scapegoat for situations that you don't understand such as these mass shootings. Especially when there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that the shooter was a misogynist who's warped view on women motivated him to commit these crimes.

I don't get what you're saying. There are plenty of mentally ill people who are capable of violence and there are plenty of mentally ill people who are incapable of violence.
 
Lol people really believe that mentally ill people are crazy psychotic killers that need to be caged. You might as well say that most criminals are mentally ill because the only difference between them and him is that his thoughts were documented via video vlogs and the manifesto.

I have a history with psychosis, and although I was paranoid and thought people in public were out to kill me, I didn't have no thoughts of killing people. If anything, I felt very vulnerable and was afraid to leave the house.

If you were to visit a counseling center, a psychiatric center, or a mental hospital I promise that you will not see the 2nd coming of the Joker in most cases. You will just see people who deal with severe mental health issues that prevent them from functioning on a basic level.

Stop using mental health issues as a scapegoat for situations that you don't understand such as these mass shootings. Especially when there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that the shooter was a misogynist who's warped view on women motivated him to commit these crimes.

You forgot about the Connecticut shootings already?
 
I don't get what you're saying. There are plenty of mentally ill people who are capable of violence and there are plenty of mentally ill people who are incapable of violence.

His point wasn't that mentally ill people aren't capable of violence. It's that society treats mental illness as the sole factor for violence when many other factors can lead to someone comitting violent acts.

In this case, people would rather dismiss the idea there is toxic beliefs towards women AND men that influence negative behaviour in people and just put it all on mental illness.
 
It absolutely can lead to toxic views of women far more than video games can lead to violence. The difference is that one is from a real world perspective that encourages disgusting behaviour and treatment of women while the other is a fantasy world that is not encouraged in reality.

There are plenty of people who play games who then go on to paintball, or to write violent fiction, or (I've experienced this) start to discuss guns in inappropriate settings and have conversations about the best places to (in a game) snipe people from. More than a couple of my friends joke about wishing they could run over people and steal cars cause they play too much GTA. At the end of it, a lot of PUA people I imagine say weird and creepy shit, that out of context sounds as weird and creepy as things gamers can joke about sometimes.

But I just gotta say, that mass murder is a step beyond. I think there is an over abundance of hatred towards women, and that is a societal issue that can be addressed, and is something that can improved over time. Mass murder is something different, and I don't think these people died because of this man's hatred of women, I think they died because this guy had a mental disorder which prevented him from empathizing, from connecting with people. It happened to manifest itself as a hatred of women, but he clearly hated a lot of people and focusing on the misogyny is just looking for an easy solution.
 
Absolutely. We're all, sane or insane, products of our environment.

His family created an environment where any object he wanted he could have.

Society created an environment where women are an object to possess.

His mental health meant he couldn't process the disconnect of there being objects out there he wasn't automatically entitled to.

I know you didn't mean to but that was a poor choice of words :p
 
Makes me wonder how many other sick demented people like this guy are out there and just on the edge of this. Thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the victims.
 
His point wasn't that mentally ill people aren't capable of violence. It's that society treats mental illness as the sole factor for violence when many other factors can lead to someone comitting violent acts.

In this case, people would rather dismiss the idea there is toxic beliefs towards women AND men that influence negative behaviour in people and just put it all on mental illness.

Exactly what I was trying to say. This kid and others like him probably did have some issues, but to say these crimes are mainly because of a mental illness while ignoring everything else is a cop out.
 
Honestly, in every single girl-age thread, there is some contingent that is just as scary. I'm not being hyperbolic. There are always a few posts that leave me queasy and I find myself leaving the board for a while. Earlier in this thread Devo posted two threads just from a day or two ago that were fucked up and scary.

I think it's unfortunate that the last few pages have been about people trying to see a victim side of this killer. A better discussion would be about how toxic his views were, and yet how prevalent variations of them are. The notion that women are a prize to be had; even the common sentiment that women crave wealthy, handsome men can be seen in this guy. He had nice clothes, expensive glasses, nice car, connections, where were the women? But every thread you'll see the same sentiment, that women *fill in the blanks.*

And early in this thread, there were guys saying they never realized that women lived with fear because of all the rape precautions, the harassment, etc; and yet women on this board are in every single thread shouting this. But we're never fucking heard. We're ignored. For a few hours yesterday, I thought we might actually get somewhere. Maybe a few guys would listen a bit longer and digest what we've been saying. But, nope. We're back to "creep shaming" and shit.

Requoting.
 
Lol people really believe that mentally ill people are crazy psychotic killers that need to be caged. You might as well say that most criminals are mentally ill because the only difference between them and him is that his thoughts were documented via video vlogs and the manifesto.

I have a history with psychosis, and although I was paranoid and thought people in public were out to kill me, I didn't have no thoughts of killing people. If anything, I felt very vulnerable and was afraid to leave the house.

If you were to visit a counseling center, a psychiatric center, or a mental hospital I promise that you will not see the 2nd coming of the Joker in most cases. You will just see people who deal with severe mental health issues that prevent them from functioning on a basic level.

Stop using mental health issues as a scapegoat for situations that you don't understand such as these mass shootings. Especially when there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that the shooter was a misogynist who's warped view on women motivated him to commit these crimes.

I think all of us in here think that in general mentally impaired people are not inclined to be killers any more than any one else.


Speaking for myself, even though other people have expressed having similar thoughts they were able to move past it in the past. When you read his manifesto he has a very strong obsession on holding onto these notions instead of rejecting them. He even admits some of his thoughts are outlandish. He most likely had some sort of mental problem even if it was something that possibly hasn't been precisely documented before, who knows. His stated goals, impulsiveness, autobiography as well as his subsequent actions that make craziness seem to be a reasonable assessment.
 
Lol people really believe that mentally ill people are crazy psychotic killers that need to be caged. You might as well say that most criminals are mentally ill because the only difference between them and him is that his thoughts were documented via video vlogs and the manifesto.

I have a history with psychosis, and although I was paranoid and thought people in public were out to kill me, I didn't have no thoughts of killing people. If anything, I felt very vulnerable and was afraid to leave the house.

If you were to visit a counseling center, a psychiatric center, or a mental hospital I promise that you will not see the 2nd coming of the Joker in most cases. You will just see people who deal with severe mental health issues that prevent them from functioning on a basic level.

Stop using mental health issues as a scapegoat for situations that you don't understand such as these mass shootings. Especially when there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that the shooter was a misogynist who's warped view on women motivated him to commit these crimes.

You know, that's absolutely right.

This guy clearly had a lot of problems, and clearly made a lot of choices. I've had and lost friendships in the past because of how those people behaved, and in some cases, mental illness was a factor, and in other cases it was not. It can be tricky to separate the personality from the personality disorder sometimes. I had to stop seeing a friend who was mentally ill because he was just a jerk. I felt guilty that I was abandoning a friend, but I also have friends who are mentally ill who are cool people. So I was forcing myself to hang out with an a-hole through guilt rather than support. If he wasn't having all these psychological problems I would have cut him out years ago.

There are a lot of MensRights types who are not mentally ill, just idiots, and there are mentally ill people with a great sense of empathy. But this Rodgers guy was a real piece of work, and I think when something horrible like this happens we all run towards our biases. That this happened for the thing we're afraid of. He was disturbed, he hated women, he was idle rich, etc. At the end of it, he made choices.
 
Every time someone uses "mentally ill" and "crazy/insane/off the deep end/etc" in the same sentence, they're making the world a worse place.
 
I think it's entirely plausible that his mental ability didn't allow for rational thinking, which amplified his insecurities and led to his misanthropic, misogynist views, enforced by the cultish doctrine of the MRA.

I was kind of puzzled by why he stabbed his three roommates to death before going out, but that to me says he had a case of sociopathy. Never once does he place value on anyone's life. He merely tolerated people who were nice or similarly "pathetic" as he viewed himself.

I also think it's weird for people to think that those saying illness was a major contributing factor are somehow defending Elliot or saying that everyone who has a psychosis are killers in the making. Elliot's hatred and actions are not any less real, dangerous, or sickening because of it. I don't believe it relieves him of responsibility either.
 
Every single post is just rage. Talking about sluts, douchebags, ugly people, nerds, dorks, killing all celebrities, racial slurs, etc.

That pathetic impotent rage.
Son of a fucking bitch! This dude was nasty. There's a video posted that has animals being skinned alive and he says it makes him laugh.

This dude was a real psycho and sick person.
 
There are plenty of people who play games who then go on to paintball, or to write violent fiction, or (I've experienced this) start to discuss guns in inappropriate settings and have conversations about the best places to (in a game) snipe people from. More than a couple of my friends joke about wishing they could run over people and steal cars cause they play too much GTA. At the end of it, a lot of PUA people I imagine say weird and creepy shit, that out of context sounds as weird and creepy as things gamers can joke about sometimes.
You are far less likely to interact with people who believe violence is actually okay compared to the very common view towards women and how to treat them.

We just need to look at PUA, "nice guy" mentality, body builder forums and many other damaging groups.

There's many views that are tolerated by society towards women while violence is always pushed as a negative.

But I just gotta say, that mass murder is a step beyond. I think there is an over abundance of hatred towards women, and that is a societal issue that can be addressed, and is something that can improved over time. Mass murder is something different, and I don't think these people died because of this man's hatred of women, I think they died because this guy had a mental disorder which prevented him from empathizing, from connecting with people. It happened to manifest itself as a hatred of women, but he clearly hated a lot of people and focusing on the misogyny is just looking for an easy solution.

But his targeting had everything to do with women. His mass murder mainly involved women and the men's involvement had to do with women also.
 
His targeting was more or less everyone.

His targeting was birthed from his views on women. His entire thesis is about how humanity as a whole kept him in perpetual virginity. Women were the enemy and men who were with women/have had sex were the enemy. Both were like insults to him and both drew his ire.
 
I was kind of puzzled by why he stabbed his three roommates to death before going out, but that to me says he had a case of sociopathy. Never once does he place value on anyone's life. He merely tolerated people who were nice or similarly "pathetic" as he viewed himself.

In his manifesto has sees murdering his roommates as phase 1, to give him the privacy to lure people into the apartment for torture and death.
 
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