Can I frame this post, put it in my living room and the next time someone comes home while we drink good bourbon I can pull out a pipe and say "You know... I was there when he said that"?
European Parliament Elections 2014 |OT| The Undemocratic EU is Actually Elected
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Can I frame this post, put it in my living room and the next time someone comes home while we drink good bourbon I can pull out a pipe and say "You know... I was there when he said that"?
MistakenMobius
Member
AFAIK, MEP at the european parliament only get to vote not to propose, so unless some EU commissioner start putting up for vote facist directive The only consequence i see is that the fat cats have changed and they will be discredited at the next election because now they will also have the hand in the cookie jar.
I've just looked by the windows, doesn't seems to have SS marching outdoor, rampaging and pillaging.
I've just looked by the windows, doesn't seems to have SS marching outdoor, rampaging and pillaging.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Lol, so true.
Palette Swap
Member
A bit meta but taking a step back and reading the past few pages back to back, the UKIP people really come across as super spiteful.
It works pretty well in the French context too. I never really got all the national identity questioning the right started a few years back. I mean, it's an interesting academic/philosophical issue and I love our cultural heritage but once it's gone a few times through the political machine, all that's left is a proxy for "fucking darkies", used by people who couldn't tell Proust from Marc Levy.
More Fun To Compute
Member
I suppose that racists are just a fickle group of voters with no loyalty and Griffin just wasn't openly racist enough for them.
MistakenMobius
Member
The fFrench national identity is actually well defined at least since Charles the Bald.
Even the modern France has a very well defined national identity: to be French, you don't have to be born here, you just have to recognize the french value (Separation of church and state, Power to the state) as yours and espouse them.
Take the french foreign legion: Legio Patria Nostra or the Harkis: "Français par le sang versé"
It's depressing really. I think/hope it's just youth voting for him because of stupid internet memes, and in few months he will fall back to obscurity where he belongs.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Danish People´s Party is a racist, anti immegration anti EU party, and more than one in four Danes voted for them. WTF!!!!
This fucking party grew 12% since the 2009 elections. I am disgusted.
Ciastek3214
Junior Member
I hope it'll happen quickly. If I don't stop hearing about Jezus Koran Mekka soon, I'll eventually flip out and bad shit will happen.
Talking about Marc Levy...
France 2 need to be torched and salted (excuse the martial language, this + no GoT kind of does that), they had plenty of people talk about this whole affair and the less shitty guy they had in the pannel was fucking Marc Levy.
Marc Levy a writer of easyreading romances is the most intelligent and coherent guy France 2 could find to form a panel on these elections...
My secret hope is that one country will manage to do soemthing worse than France just did...
That's only French republic.
There's more to France than simply the IIIrd republic and what came after.
Royalists are certainly French and they really don't recognize any separation of church and state and yes deporting them wouldn't be a problem.
I'm split on the Swedish result. Sure, we got the first feminist/Roma representative to the EU through F! and made huge gains for the Greens but... the Sweden Democrats got 9,7 % and 2 seats, almost triple of what they got in 2009. We'll catch up to you Danes yet at this rate.
Marc
Member
Yes, they were literally saying 20 million people would come over. That is how you understood that? Then really, is it worth debating anything if you can't follow that simple logic. Its not about how many come over but who legally qualifies now. Most data suggested the influx was small as they were already here illegally and just became legal afterwards.
I'll ask for the 50th time, what is your background and experience in these matters? You are presenting yourself as an expert on the matter then surely you have some actual life experience to qualify as one.
Haha, I haven't seen them pulling ad hominems, outright insults, stereotyping, strawman fallacies and the like as the opposite side have done. Feel free to quote those super spiteful remarks, I am sure they compare well to being called idiots, racists, homophobes, posting pics of people almost dying.
The ignorance is incredible.
While I understand the frustration, there's certainly no need to then escalate things yourself. Settle down and refrain from personal attacks, and that goes for everyone else in this thread as well. Thank you.
MistakenMobius
Member
Like the 5 of them? Would probably be easier than Leonarda.
Well we get Patrick Buisson as a bonus!
Nicktendo86
Member
Is there any source for a breakdown of type of jobs immigrants into the UK take up? I've been trying to find one and am struggling.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
The neolibs and social engineers are inadvertently creating a continent sized monster. heaven help us if it learns to goose step.
The overall genetic footprint of these isles has barely changed from the original footfall of the paleolithic iberians that ranged as far north as scandinavia and the north german plain. People whom arrived not long after the glaciers melted, polar desert thawed and doggerland was swallowed cutting them off from the mainland. If these insular islands on the arse end of eurasia have no culture, evidently no one has and there needs to be a re-examination of the word.
The overall genetic footprint of these isles has barely changed from the original footfall of the paleolithic iberians that ranged as far north as scandinavia and the north german plain. People whom arrived not long after the glaciers melted, polar desert thawed and doggerland was swallowed cutting them off from the mainland. If these insular islands on the arse end of eurasia have no culture, evidently no one has and there needs to be a re-examination of the word.
TitusGroan
Banned
This is one of UKIP's election posters. I think that's as pretty clear a statement as you could ask for.
MistakenMobius
Member
FN wins on tasteless trolling billboard:
This is one of UKIP's election posters. I think that's as pretty clear a statement as you could ask for.
You know full well those figures were used to scare the shit out of ignorant people.
I was bullied throughout school for not being British enough and for being queer and have experienced first hand that adults can be just as mean so you'll excuse me if a bunch of nasty BNP-lite politicians making massive gains makes me fearful. Freedom of movement and LGBT equality are concepts that mean everything to me.
Palette Swap
Member
Except the point of that so called debate (which never really happened) was to look for more essential characteristics than these simple conditions. Again, academically, I believe there's an interesting discussion to be had but the reality of it looked pretty stupid. Mostly because our politicians lack any depth (or don't express any).
You can have my lighter. Overall, our mediatic mediocrity hasn't helped at all and BFM/iTV haven't helped at all. There's very little analysis or thought in the general political discourse, it's all about regurgitating talking points and key figures, few people bother with fact-checking and every issue weighs as much as the next one.
Edit: just reading a recap of MLP's propositions on Le Monde and it's baffling how such stupid shit could fly through. It's pretty much lying at this point and it's a bit worrying she wasn't called out on her bullshit.
The agriculture part is simply surrealist when you consider who's benefitted from the CAP for the past decades. Not to mention her solution comes straight out of the USSR playbook.
I can't french, please translate.FN wins on tasteless trolling billboard:
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
I have always thought of us Europeans as civilized people, but this tilt to the right that has been happening for the past 15 years makes me think otherwise. How the hell does fear control a civilized society?
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
We are waiting for our Croatian passport, so we can go where ever we want, because it´s Europe.
Or something close to that translation.
Oops DP.
I had TV5 on so I was able to watch that. He tried to draw a comparison to the Tea Party movement in America like it was some distinct far right political party and not a collective of extreme republican party voters. It really was a pretty awful panel.
Crisis, recession, unemployment, etc.; detachment between old and stale parties with people; the inclusion of countries long perceived as immigrants/criminals.
(This to recap as shortly as possible - and pertaining at least to Italy, but after reading this enlightening thread I guess it pretty much applies to the entire EU)
Most voters do not understand the institutions at all. They have no idea how the EU Parliament or Commission operates but are still willing to send in candidates who promise to do X Y and Z.
The ruling parties have been incompetent and have followed instructions from corporate advisers while ignoring transparent governance or real experts (such as Nobel prize winners). Austerity measures are hurting a lot of people and populist movements blame the weakest people for the effects (Muslims, poor immigrants, welfare recipients in other member states) while going on about how supporting blue collar workers is the answer to everything (industries that are dying out regardless of what we do).
Then we have the culture wars, the populist movements are against rainbow rights and support so-called traditional values. They do not believe in future/green technologies, because that would require sharing a conversation with progressives who warn others of global warming and so on.
It's a complete cluster fuck of a situation and now these annoyed voters are sending in people to EU Parliament who have no understanding how to work through these troubled times but are instead probably going to be a roadblock for stable minded candidates. We will see more dysfunction and the same people who vote for these isolationist parties will receive confirmation for their beliefs : "See we told you nothing works in Brussels"
See there's no difference between US and Europe in that regard, though support for the far right is far lower over here. 25% is "an earthquake" while republicans are set to take the senate next autumn.
CyclopsRock
Member
As I've said, I'm pro immigration, but this argument is a total strawman. It's true that we're a mongrel nation, having been repeatedly re-invaded over a period of a thousand or so years - but go and ask the Britons or the Saxons what they thought of their invaders. If the point of the analogy is that this ethnic amalgamation has been occuring throughout our country's history so it occuring today isn't a problem, it's one that would lead many to land on the UKIP side (ie "The Saxon's all but destroyed the Britons - why would I be happy that this is happening now?")
Well, from what I've read you were quite happy when we invaded! I believe you describe the event as glorious. Pretty sure that makes you the only other nation on earth to ever think favourably of Dutch troops
.While I do agree to some extent, I also think that the root of the question is pretty reasonable, which is: what is 'Britishness'? What is our National Identity? Is that identity actually worth keeping?
I'd be quite happy to have a debate about that, because for me what Britain stands for is really just mostly stuff that many other countries already stand for, along with some twee nonsense about afternoon tea.
TitusGroan
Banned
The point was the majority of what we perceive to be 'British culture' is actually stuff we took or borrowed from other nations, or stuff that other nations brought to us when their inhabitants moved here. The Royal Family are seen as British as they come, and they're from a line of Germans, with the Queens children themselves being half-Greek. Led Zeppelin, the Stones, Black Sabbath and the Beatles are probably our biggest musical legacy, and they all got started off aping blues numbers from African American musicians. Queen are celebrated as one of the most successful British bands ever, but Freddie Mercury himself was of Indian descent and born in Zanzibar. Tolkien is one of our biggest figures in literary fiction, and he was born and grew up in South Africa. Fish and chips originated in with Jewish immigrants from Portugal and Spain, and tea is something we picked up from China and India.
This idea that Britain has some form of cultural identity that stands alone and separate from the rest of the world, something we need to protect from the dirty foreigners, is wrong. The entire history of our country is pretty much defined by how we integrated elements of other cultures, and made them 'British'. There is no part of Britain's identity that stands apart from the rest of the world, because we have always been influenced by the rest of the world in one form or another. When Napoleon was taking power in Europe, we engaged in a decades long war to get rid of him. When the Nazis were steamrolling countries left and right, we dug our heels in and held the buggers off until America came to help. The Middle East is how it is now partly because of how we divided up countries in the early 20th Century. India is now one of the major economic powers in the world, because we finally stopped fucking around and gave them the independence they wanted.
Our entire country is defined by how we have acted with other countries, and what we have approbated from them. Sometimes we have done that well, sometimes we have done that very, very badly (China would certainly be in a very different place now if we had never kicked off the opium Wars with them), but good or ill, we have defined ourself by what we give and take from other countries. There is no part of British identity that stands like an ivory tower, separate from the rest of the world. There is no singular part of British identity that has to be defended and kept sacrosanct from foreigners. We have defined ourselves by those foreigners time and time again, and it is specifically that multi-cultural, melting pot approach that is the one thing that really counts as the British identity.
Marc
Member
This is one of UKIP's election posters. I think that's as pretty clear a statement as you could ask for.
So you interpret that as literally having 26 million people coming over all at once?
Just to say I don't think the advert is very good, but I am struggling to remember any good ones from the main parties in recent years. Nearly all of it is hyperbolic, over inflated rubbish.
You honestly think people believed 26 million people are coming over, that is your argument. Can you show me evidence of this, a single person on youtube or whatever that fell for that idea you are interpreting? Obviously with a majority vote a lot of these ignorant people are around so should be easy enough to find. Or is it that they interpret that there are that many people that can qualify for a job and apply to it? The same goes for an Englishman going to France and trying to get a job there. Problem being is there is no logical guidelines to stop an influx crippling an area. People here may not like to believe it, but there are issues of infrastructure and logistics that make the idea completely ridiculous. A town can't just have random population changes and expected to deal with the demand in water supply, energy supply, housing, culture, food availability etc. magically.
Well I am very sorry you had to experience that and UKIP having those types in their membership is clearly incredibly disliked which is why they had to evolve and remove that element as much as possible. Such elements exist in all walks of life however and have seen it in other parties. Hopefully they evolve further still and that element is educated and can come to terms with reality a bit better. I would prefer that to marginalization as it will just grow worse then. Accusing all their members, voters, supporters or people who may vote for them as racists and homophobes is certainly not going to help anything. And for someone who had to deal with name calling, threats and mud slinging twats... trying to do the same as them is the last thing you should be doing. Being inclusive of different viewpoints and trying to educate those small minds who think like that would be a better strategy in my opinion.
As I said though, no way would any issues on LGBT get UKIP elected to any real power
TitusGroan
Banned
That is explicitly what the poster is saying. "26 millions Europeans are looking for work. And whose jobs are they after?"
There's a great big bloody hand pointing a giant great bloody finger at the reader, in this case, the UK electorate.
So yes, I would say that UKIP were campaigning on the idea of 26 million Europeans all coming over to the UK looking for jobs, as that is exactly what their election literature tells me. It's bloody stupid, of course, but that only reflects badly on them for such a stupid poster. Not on me for interpreting it how it was clearly meant to be interpreted.
Marc
Member
The point is made in this panel by Simon Hughes (who I respect a fair deal on the libdems side) to Farage - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mf6IErCALQ
The poster states the factual amount eligible, realistically no one would believe that, neither does Farage believe it. The point is about the legal and eligibility of how it stands currently.
It says "looking for work" not "coming over to work", you could look at Britain as you could look at France or Germany. So no, I think you would have to be doing some pretty amazing mental gymnastics to actually believe people are interpreting it that way when their own members aren't and yet to see evidence of voters doing so either. Plus the whole not actually written the way you are saying part. You have interpreted looking as coming, that is your view, I am asking who these people who actually voted for it are based on the same interpretation. Not seen a jot of it. Even in the youtube comments I have seen which usually make up the dregs of society don't seem to make that leap of a conclusion.
SporeCrawler
Member
so just to be sure. if the EU breaks into separate nations again. this will benefit UK and France... how (aside of the fact that they may be able to get rid of all the EU foreigners that are working there)?
why would they look for jobs in UK? london seems to be the only place where you would have a chance finding a job and even then the living cost is so high that you have to make a lot (and i dont think 26 million EU people will have the necessary education for such jobs)
This is one of UKIP's election posters. I think that's as pretty clear a statement as you could ask for.
TitusGroan
Banned
If that's the case, then why does the poster ask the question, then have a finger pointing at the UK readership? Why? You haven't answered that. You can't just go "oh, well of course, no-on realistically expects 26 million people to come over" because that's not what I'm saying. I don't believe that to be the case either. My point was that UKIP specifically campaigned with that point in mind.
It's not mental gymnastics to look at a poster asking a question, pointing a finger at the reader, and then thinking the intended answer is the reader themself. It is, I think, mental gymnastics to take that same poster with that same pointing finger, and argue that it is doing anything other than singling out the UK electorate, in this case by pointing to them when asking whose jobs these 26 million EU jobless are after.
UKIP made the poster, they're the ones arguing that point. Conceding that it's a factually incorrect point doesn't change the fact they put it on their bloody poster.
Dude, first off, theres a BIG difference between national elections, and European Elections.
I voted for Morten, hes a genius when it comes to politics, especially EU.
Would i vote for Danish People Party in a national election ? NO way !
But just because I voted for him to be elected in the EU doesn't mean i support their view in Denmark. Theres a reason he got every 4th vote.
The idea with Eurosceptics is that having total control over their own regulations allows nations to conduct monetary and other economic policies as well as social policies as they themselves feel they require. Where they can adopt protectionist measures if they like, where they can restrict immigration at will, where they can conclude trade treaties with whomever they want and so forth. On top of that, transfer payments to economically weaker EU member states and economically weaker EU regions are generally seen as undesirable.
I disagree with most of it, but it's not hard to see why some find it appealing.
SporeCrawler
Member
isnt that what already happened in the past and it let to colonialism and then war? just asking.
A great many people are either convinced that this time is different, that the world has changed such that European countries won't go to war with each other again, or they are simply so distanced from the very notion of war against other European countries that they can't even imagine the scenario. War to many people is something that happens far away.
As far as colonialism goes, one might well say that when looking at the reality of countries like Nigeria and others suffering from the resource curse, it is hard to argue that colonialism actually ended at all.
SporeCrawler
Member
i dont like this notion. why give parties that you dont support more money and represenation (by giving them seats). that money will fund their next campaign for the national run and they will have the means to mobilize even more people.
sure next time FN or UKIP wont get get 25% but even 10% or 15% would be huge. maybe theyll even grow further and the general tone of the established parties becomes racist too (like the center party in germany)?
colonialism ended at least in some parts of the world (asia, india, south america etc.).
also why would you think that european countries wont go to war? WW2 is only 70 years ago. thats a rather short term period.
michaelius
Banned
Bolded part is extremely important.
The only reason Poland barely suffered during peak of european crissis is because our currency lost 25% to Euro on exchange rates which made us super competitive against Eurozone which saved workplaces here.
Because even 70 years is long enough that people can't really grasp the reality of war hitting them. Similarly, the Dutch government barely prepared for war during the 1930s because it felt its neutrality would hold, since it hadn't been engaged in a European war since the Belgian Revolt of the 1830s. It doesn't take long for people to believe peace to be the natural state. Peace isn't seen as something to be protected by most Europeans, it is seen as the de facto reality, that nothing will ever really change. I strongly disagree with that notion, but that is how it is for many.
Hypereides
Member
Racist is a pretty strong word. Imo they're far more xenophobic and promote excludability in favor of foreigners. Its kinda funny how conservative they place themselves, to protect the danish national hertiage in mind - especially considering most of the danish national heritage has roots from beyond the border. In that regard they're like a walking paradox.
I still wonder why this party has any importance. Most of their supporters are probably the elderly.
SporeCrawler
Member
and also history disagrees with that notion.
Psychotext
Member
Comes from growing up dirt poor... and the answer to to those who think they can't compete is to quit whining and get the fuck on with it. I've worked some truly, truly shit jobs just to make ends meet so I don't have a great deal of respect for people who say that they want a comfortable life by screwing over someone else (in this case immigrants).
If you want to take the risk to come to my country and compete with me... hell, even if you want to risk doing it illegally because that's what it takes to survive... more power to you, I respect you a hell of a lot more than countrymen of mine who are happy to sit on benefits whilst complaining people are taking their jobs.
TitusGroan
Banned
When a politician resorts to asking "Well, what is racism?" after dodging the question on whether he actually is racist, I think it's rather telling. No-one ever should give a rhetorical question as an answer to a fundamental question of ethics like that.
"Titus, are you Fascist?"
"Well, I mean, what is Fascism? Is it about economics? Is it about nationalism? Is it about racism? What do we mean by Fascism? It's very hard to answer if we don't clearly state what the question means."
"Titus, are you a homophobe?"
"Well, what is homophobia? Is it about traditional Christian values? Is it about bigotry? Is it about whether being gay is biological or learned? I can't really answer the question if we don't clearly lay out what is specifically meant by the term homophobia."
"Titus, are you a member of the KKK?"
"Well, what do you mean by the KKK? Do you mean the original KKK formed by Confederate veterans after the American civil war? Do you mean the early 20th Century iteration of the KKK? or the later version that was created after the Civil Rights movement of the 50s and 60s? It's such an incredibly hard question to answer if we don't clearly state what the KKK is."
"Titus, are you Fascist?"
"Well, I mean, what is Fascism? Is it about economics? Is it about nationalism? Is it about racism? What do we mean by Fascism? It's very hard to answer if we don't clearly state what the question means."
"Titus, are you a homophobe?"
"Well, what is homophobia? Is it about traditional Christian values? Is it about bigotry? Is it about whether being gay is biological or learned? I can't really answer the question if we don't clearly lay out what is specifically meant by the term homophobia."
"Titus, are you a member of the KKK?"
"Well, what do you mean by the KKK? Do you mean the original KKK formed by Confederate veterans after the American civil war? Do you mean the early 20th Century iteration of the KKK? or the later version that was created after the Civil Rights movement of the 50s and 60s? It's such an incredibly hard question to answer if we don't clearly state what the KKK is."
There's a lot on building sites as well. It's got to the point a lot of the trades now need nvq's even if they have been doing the job decades to get on site because the quality from the cheap labour was garbage.
But hey, it was cheap. The industry finally appears to be taking control of things.
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