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European Parliament Elections 2014 |OT| The Undemocratic EU is Actually Elected

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kitch9

Banned
What makes you think there's a shortage of high skilled workers over low skilled workers?
IDK about the UK but in France we lack low skilled workers more than high skilled ones, then again not one citizen would pick the kind of work we give to the lowest illegal immigrant anyway...then again it's too hard to search for facts and analyse a situation rather than scream "DEY TOOK OUR GERBS!"

If you had control of your borders there would be nothing stopping you advertising and prioritising low skilled workers.

Maybe even offer them benefits and incentives so they wouldn't have to be illegal and therefore have a better way of life. If you have control of it you can ensure that you don't get flooded with low skilled workers which drives down their wages.

Everyone wins. You even ensure that you have infrastructure in place to ensure that their needs are met without it adversely affecting anything else.

Exciting stuff.
 
You have an unemployment rate of 6,8 and getting down, why do you want a tougher immigration system for? UK is not even in Schengen, do you really think is it going to be better for you out of the Union?



There are mechanism to leave the Union, the Article 50 says so (but of course, you know shit of all that because why bother when you can be crying about your lack of "rights"). Get enough votes and get the fuck out, it´s simple. But you leave with all the consequences. Let's see how that goes for you.

There are many in the UK - like myself - who think that on balance, staying in the EU is preferable to leaving the EU but also acknowledge that the tying together of the benefits and the drawbacks as we perceive them is entirely artificial; you say 'but you leave with all the consequences' - that's a purely political, artificial limitation. If you get a bigger engine on your car, a necessary trade off for the faster acceleration is greater fuel use - this is required. It's not required for our external trade agreements with China to be negotiated by the EU, or for our banking policy to be decided on the EUP in order for us to have free movement of people (which I rather like) or free trade within the bloc. There's no tautological reason why we need 'the bad bits' in order to get 'the good bits' which is why your 'crying' message just makes you come across as an arrogant, smug person blind to the troubles that exist.

Europe could be very strong, with some reform, but the demand for a pound of flesh from members that don't wish to give it is entirely political, and damaging.
 

AGoodODST

Member
Good to see Coburn is on top of all "crazy things going on in Europe".

Mr Coburn said his aim as an MEP was to keep "Scottish business and Scottish people aware of some of the crazy things going on in Europe that will affect their businesses and their jobs".

When challenged by presenter Gary Robertson to name some specific examples, Mr Coburn replied: "Off the top of my head I can't think but there's so many of them"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27575204
 

Tugatrix

Member
mapeu8qpvg.jpg


http://www.faz.net/op900/event/europawahl/live/#/europemap

black = democrats
red = socialists
yellow = liberals
green = green
purple = far left
brown = far right
blue = EU sceptics

PS in Portugal isn't socialist anymore, consider the right wing democrats is not accurate and very bias
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
You say that when I've explained why local authorities and police hands are tied because of the law, dude....

So you say that I can go to France and take a part of the public (or private) domain and declare it mine and live there without anything happening to me? What is this, Wild West?

If this is the case, then a lot is rotten in the national legislation.
 

Acorn

Member
There you go..typically snotty, condescending response from the left.

...and you wonder why 'white van man' is no longer voting Labour.

Being educated, left wing and middle class doesn't make you any less of a tosser.
Even if they had voted Labour it wouldn't change my statement. I don't really wonder why they voted ukip. England is a right wing country, voting for a populist right wing party is hardly earth shattering.

I'm condescending? You're the one throwing your toys out the pram with random ad homs at your own invented caricature.
 

Nikodemos

Member
Ukip's argument on immigration is actually a very good one, we should be pulling in doctors and other high skilled workers from India, Africa etc rather than just low skilled workers from Eastern Europe who drive down wages. I don't think that is an entirely unreasonable argument. Issue is whether you believe them or if they would just pull up the drawbridge.
Like a lot of things spouted by the UKIP, this is patently bullshit.

Eastern Europe's biggest exports to the UK are 1) registered nurses and orderlies; 2) medical practitioners. I should know, 'cuz everyone here is talking about how the medical system will collapse in about 3 years' time if the exodus keeps up. The po' dum' wrenchmonkeys end up in some shitty factory in Spain/Italy/France.

But of course, blatantly ignoring the facts is a favourite pastime for ultra-nationalist "Britan stronk!" nutters like the UKIP. Remember the December "Oh noes, teh Rumanian/Bulgarian Horde!!11oneone" headlines from The Daily Heil?
 

EmiPrime

Member
David Coburn UKIP ‏@DavidCoburnUKip May 25
@mdbuk Gay marriage debate brushed aside all logical opinion and any opposition was bulldozed over

David Coburn UKIP ‏@DavidCoburnUKip May 25
@mdbuk We are tiny minority - we exist due to the tolerance of heterosexuals - you should never forget that

David Coburn UKIP ‏@DavidCoburnUKip May 25
@mdbuk When I see the Rainbow Flag I have started to regard it as a flag of Oppression

David Coburn UKIP ‏@DavidCoburnUKip May 25
@mdbuk because extremist tactics are being deployed by gay lobby to silence opposition and that is dangerous

lol

Self-hating gay man and useful idiot rolled into one.
 

cartesian

Member
I just despise the incredibly patronising attitude of the left towards the people that had the temerity to vote for UKIP.
Then it's a good thing you're not incredibly patronising to the people you disagree with...
I bet the Guardian and it's metropolitan left wing readers are in mourning today, watching their utopia crumbling around them.
There you go..typically snotty, condescending response from the left.
Being educated, left wing and middle class doesn't make you any less of a tosser.
...because you would look like a bit of a snotty, condescending tosser if you were.

Seriously, though, can't you see how you're coming across as every bit as self-satisfied and aloof as the people you're criticising? There is a sound argument to be made for leaving the EU, but smug and spiteful leftie-bashing does it absolutely no favours whatsoever. You won't persuade anyone here if you talk down on them.

It was worth voting UKIP just to watch the sanctimonious little bell-ends run around in forums such as this one screaming racist! racist! to anyone who will listen.
Come on now.

Come on.
 

Mael

Member
If you had control of your borders there would be nothing stopping you advertising and prioritising low skilled workers.

Maybe even offer them benefits and incentives so they wouldn't have to be illegal and therefore have a better way of life. If you have control of it you can ensure that you don't get flooded with low skilled workers which drives down their wages.

Everyone wins. You even ensure that you have infrastructure in place to ensure that their needs are met without it adversely affecting anything else.

Exciting stuff.

That's actually what Sarkozy proposed.because he actually knew what he was talking about.
The cyclops's party is more about how all immigrants are bad and ebola should kill them all.
 

EmiPrime

Member
I am genuinely worried for this country's future but at least I can get my French passport sorted and get the hell out.

Oh wait... :( FML.
 
You won't persuade anyone here if you talk down on them.

I'm not here to persuade anyone of anything..just to pass comment on how I see things, nothing more,nothing less.

I'm old enough to remember a world when there was no internet and a means for every little nut job with a grievance to sound off, desperate for an audience.

..and life went on just fine, ignorance truly was bliss.
 

kitch9

Banned
That's actually what Sarkozy proposed.because he actually knew what he was talking about.
The cyclops's party is more about how all immigrants are bad and ebola should kill them all.

France is a different animal clearly but that is what UKIP pertain to offer in the UK.
 

EmiPrime

Member
I've never seen right-wing ideology summarised so well in a tweet like that. There are the powerful, and the people the majority allow to live.

It's simultaneously amazing and scary isn't it? These are the people the British electorate has chosen to represent themselves. So very worrying...
 

Arksy

Member
To think I was depressed by the quality of debate we had in Australia. At least we don't instantly resort to personal attacks and put downs.
 

phaze

Member
My "great" polish countrymen have just voted into European Parliament an idiot who publically states beautiful nuggets of wisdom like women being biologically dumber than men and every women secretly wanting to be raped. Jesus fuck.

But he wants to legalize weed. :p

I am utterly aghast at Poland's politicians. I always thought it was one of the most enlightened countries from the old Block, but the amount of BS coming from them since those little evil twin dwarves rose to power (granted, that was probably the first time Poland made some actual waves in the EU, even if it was for all the wrong reasons) has been mind numbing.

I don't really understand.

The "dwarves" haven't had real power for 7 years and lost every election until the current draw. Poland is generally conservative and they're simply Socialist Catholics. Hardly surprising the remaining twin gets the votes. If anything its very surprising how long the current party managed to hold on to power. They're the first party to not get thrown out after 4 years. The left in Poland compromises of post-communists with long history of corruption (who just proposed a National day of Mourning for Jaruzelski.) and economically liberal clown.
 
PS in Portugal isn't socialist anymore, consider the right wing democrats is not accurate and very bias

true dat, PS in Portugal of today is now a Center-Left establishment party that just trades places with the Center-Right PSD. Both parties are nearly identical now, it's just that PS is more Liberal on social issues.
 

Farks!

Member
I wouldn't know, I didn't vote for anyone.

I just despise the incredibly patronising attitude of the left towards the people that had the temerity to vote for UKIP.

Cause and effect.
The UKIP and similair parties all across Europe either flirt with or are openly for things suchs as xenophobia, homophobia, misogyny, climate change denialism, classism, isolationism, among other things. They want to step on peoples rights and even deny their right to exist. That's why "the left" and other people are upset.

And you are willing to let these people grab more and more power simply because you don't like they way some respond to it? Do you think that's good reasoning?
 

StayDead

Member
Kinda ashamed to be British right now. Fucking hell.

My sentiments exactly.

People are ignoring the biggest issues like companies not paying corporation tax and are blaming the few people who come in from Europe to make a better living for themselves and their families.

It really does sadden me. I think what makes it worse is the low turnout of voters. There's no way to tell if the people who didn't vote are pro europe or not, but the vocal minority of people who voted either UKIP as protest or as they're biggots themselves have made our country look like a joke. If you want to improve the EU you don't elect a party who are either going to go tot he EU meetings and act like babies or not even bother turning up.
 

Marc

Member
I'd have thought so... yes, by doing exactly the same thing.

Why do these crazy edge cases always come out in these discussions? Right there you're talking about multiple laws being broken, so yeah, I'd guess anyone willing to break the law could compete with them directly. I mean shit, I could choose not to pay my taxes right now if I wanted to... but it would be a massive risk, just as it is for any immigrant that tries to live that way.

As for the 10 in a 2 bed flat... I've lived in similar (not quite as bad, but similar) circumstances whilst I was doing temporary work away from home in my late teens. Is there something about being British that means we're unable to live in discomfort to try and get by? Do we deserve more by virtue of where our passport originates?

Erm, how? They are here legally and have lived their lives here obviously. It is a lot harder to just disappear off the tax system. Maybe they don't want to go the illegal route, god forbid.

Crazy edge cases? Again, I would like to understand people who argue against these things, what is your background exactly. Have you ever lived in a diverse, poor area? What is your social make up, what cultures do you hang out with generally? Well exactly, most people who are from and live in the UK are going to be people who want to do so on legal terms. And yet your answer to an impossible competitive edge is to "do the same".

Erm yes, because we have living standards, generally most people want their populations to live in better legal conditions than a dog's. You don't want your children to live in such conditions. Again, you are actually making the argument that instead of removing the unfair and illegal advantage others have... they should just join them. Live in worse conditions, get out of the tax system that holds up this country and have zero future prospects. How is this even an argument? This isn't Victorian Britain ffs, maybe English kids should lie about their ages as well to get factory floor work.

What is always funny as well is how people opposed to others viewpoints completely dismiss personal experience as anecdotal evidence yet will talk without 'any' evidence to the contrary. Just resort to ad hominems and strawman fallacies.



Would love to do a background comparison with some people here, can do it in PM if you want. Genuinely incredibly curious about the people who call UKIP voters racist. And if you vote for other parties are you then not racist?

People who happily regurgitate whatever they see written in the Daily Mail normally are. Unfortunately these people do exist.

I see this often, you guys realise that the Daily Mail campaigned against UKIP right? They are a tory paper.

As opposed to those that regurgitate whatever they read in the Guardian? Would love a paper that didn't declare for any party and stayed sodding neutral, like they should.




It still amazes me how in this thread you can call a majority vote of people all racists, idiots, crazy people, post pictures of people who almost die for a joke etc. and get away with it but in another thread call someone stupid and you get a lifetime ban. Hard to follow where the line is drawn here. Can I call these people fascists since they have clearly displayed a disagreement with democracy and people being able to vote who don't agree with them.
 

Nikodemos

Member
My sentiments exactly.

People are ignoring the biggest issues like companies not paying corporation tax and are blaming the few people who come in from Europe to make a better living for themselves and their families.
It's easier to blame some faceless mandarins in Brussels and 'their' policies than admit that your local political class is composed of a bunch of self-serving asstards who only care about their next paycheck and who do jack shit about fixing fundamental issues that have nothing to do with the Union (if anything, the Union would love to see them fixed, like the tax loopholes or the barely-regulated banking sector).
 

kitch9

Banned
My sentiments exactly.

People are ignoring the biggest issues like companies not paying corporation tax and are blaming the few people who come in from Europe to make a better living for themselves and their families.

It really does sadden me. I think what makes it worse is the low turnout of voters. There's no way to tell if the people who didn't vote are pro europe or not, but the vocal minority of people who voted either UKIP as protest or as they're biggots themselves have made our country look like a joke. If you want to improve the EU you don't elect a party who are either going to go tot he EU meetings and act like babies or not even bother turning up.

The reason corporations can claim to pay tax in other countries is because of open markets like the EU though.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
lol

Self-hating gay man and useful idiot rolled into one.

Apparently I'm not allowed to call him an idiot because that makes me a fascist, so I will just say that I have strong disagreements on his view that LGBT communities are an oppressive group.
 

EmiPrime

Member
If you UKIP cheerleaders can't figure out why LGBT people, foreign nationals and non-whites among others are genuinely worried right now and why we are lashing out at Farage and those who voted UKIP you really haven't been paying attention.
 
If you UKIP cheerleaders can't figure out why LGBT people, foreign nationals and non-whites among others are genuinely worried right now and why we are lashing out at Farage and those who voted UKIP you really haven't been paying attention.

UK is too loose when it comes it's national identity and awarding accommodations to any demands that minority groups ask.

UK needs a balanced approach (which they do not have now which in turn creates an opposite reaction for people to support UKIP.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
If you UKIP cheerleaders can't figure out why LGBT people, foreign nationals and non-whites among others are genuinely worried right now and why we are lashing out at Farage and those who voted UKIP you really haven't been paying attention.

They just want a rational, sensible debate about immigration! Which is why they have to resort to obfuscation, misdirection, and outright lies about immigration! And also for somewhat unclear reasons they need a surprising number of homophobic candidates!
 
UK is too loose when it comes it's national identity and awarding accommodations to any demands that minority groups ask.

UK needs a balanced approach (which they do not have now which in turn creates an opposite reaction for people to support UKIP.

National identity? Which national identity would that be? The national identity the Romans gave us when they settled here? The national identity of the Anglo-Saxon invaders? The national identity of the Normans?

We're a nation of settlers. Whatever indigenous population there was that didn't get wiped out by the Romans were killed over a thousand years ago by the Saxons. Our monarchy is descended from German heritage. The Queen's husband himself is Greek. Our own language is a hodge-podge mix of German, Latin, French, and whatever other language we could mug for loose change. Our national dishes were all either invented elsewhere or invented by immigrants. What national identity are we supposed to have that doesn't acknowledge the fact that the entire country was built by people coming from other countries?
 
you need a balanced approach. If you cave in in give in all the time to the demands of religious minorities when they get exaggerated then you are just bending over. There is give and take on both sides (host country and integrating minority) but it is a total fail when you go UK style and just cave in to all demands without judgjing if they are reasonable or not.

UK's model doesn't work. (caving in without questioning)
France's model doesn't work.(marginalizing minorities and dumping them in outskirts)
USA and Canada however got it right in terms of balancing integration and preserving a cohesive knit function unit of a society
 
Aren't you the Estado Novo supporter?
Their positives outweigh their negatives. Infrastructure, bridges, education, economy. Yeah they were asshats in some other regards especially with their colonies and wars but you can't erase the good they they did.

Lisbon didn't even have a bridge before for Christ's sake. Someone had to build one, and it wasn't the commies that built it. It's still the Salazar Bridge in my book
 

Marc

Member
If you UKIP cheerleaders can't figure out why LGBT people, foreign nationals and non-whites among others are genuinely worried right now and why we are lashing out at Farage and those who voted UKIP you really haven't been paying attention.

UKIP are a one issue party, with no chance of getting an majority vote in a general election to have any real effect on those policies, they won't even have enough candidates in the first place.

Foreign nationals like Farage's wife? Yeah, obviously going to kick her out... well maybe I guess... could be on bad terms. :D Do you know the make up of the voters to state such things? Anything factual at all to offer? Otherwise you are just making shit up. My personal circumstances contradict your narrative. Then again I voted for UKIP and Greens, so am a racist treehugger who wants all the foreign tree's to get the hell out.

Most of their voters polled do nothing for the picture you are painting which is just outright lies and scare-mongering. I saw a lot of "non-whites" voted in at UKIP, probably more compared to other small parties. Would Greens/LibDems be racist if they have less non-whites in their ranks? Is that how it works... c'mon.



Again, have yet to see anyone describe their non-racist background who throw that accusation out like confetti to the point it loses all meaning.
 

StayDead

Member
National identity? Which national identity would that be? The national identity the Romans gave us when they settled here? The national identity of the Anglo-Saxon invaders? The national identity of the Normans?

We're a nation of settlers. Whatever indigenous population there was that didn't get wiped out by the Romans were killed over a thousand years ago by the Saxons. Our monarchy is descended from German heritage. The Queen's husband himself is Greek. Our own language is a hodge-podge mix of German, Latin, French, and whatever other language we could mug for loose change. Our national dishes were all either invented elsewhere or invented by immigrants. What national identity are we supposed to have that doesn't acknowledge the fact that the entire country was built by people coming from other countries?

I would like to thank you for this post. Our entire heritage is based around people of various nations mixing together to create the society we live in today and I'm proud of that. Yes, we especially at the time of the Empire did some dispicable things (although many nations did back then), but one thing it did do after it all was make us even more diverse and it saddens me deeply people seem to ignore that fact.

I'm very proud knowing that people coming from various nations from around Europe or even the world can come here and make a life for themselves much like my ancestors did at some point in the past.

Yet no mention of pride that the BNP lost it's final 2 seats in the UK.

They lose their final 2 seats because the racists voted for UKIP instead.
 
Nick Griffin lamented that they voted for the "Racist" UKIP

Pot, meet kettle. Especially laughable as UKIP are the least racist of the 2 by some margin.

What you gonna say...congrats I guess? You voted for a less overtly racist party than the fucking BNP.

edit: seems I misunderstood you, the hyphens next to racist sent me for a loop.
 

EmiPrime

Member
They just want a rational, sensible debate about immigration! Which is why they have to resort to obfuscation, misdirection, and outright lies about immigration! And also for somewhat unclear reasons they need a surprising number of homophobic candidates!

All 20 million Romanians have come here to take our jobs/benefits/women and beg on our streets. Facts? Who needs 'em!
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
All 20 million Romanians have come here to take our jobs/benefits/women and beg on our streets. Facts? Who needs 'em!

A man can't even espouse his sensible, rational views about shooting gay people any more without being called a homophobe. It's political correctness gone mad, cheered on by those sneering lefties.
 
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