DoktorEvil
Banned
Huh, has any news outlets try to interview them?
Seven Dead, Several Hospitalized in Isla Vista Mass Shooting
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Huh, has any news outlets try to interview them?
Someone recognizing that a group holds a viewpoint/feeling doesn't mean that they're endorsing it. It seems like people can't separate those two things when people try to bring them up in order to discuss how you might help those who have developed or are in the process of developing those problematic points of view.
Certainly, I just mentioned specifically some men feeling that way because of extreme cases like this and why they might have such a poisoned outlook towards women.
Out of Working Order
Member
I don't see that it's very similar.
This is similar in the sense that it's talking about associating people who do evil with the views of people who aren't going out and doing evil, but that's not absurd in itself. We're generally fine with talking about "radical Islam", which picks out that subset of Islam which does hold some very problematic things. And radical Islam isn't just the ideology of suicide bombers - there's a whole support network which acts to enable this sort of terrorism consisting of a bunch of people who aren't themselves going out and doing terrorism. We don't want to slice this too narrowly because then we miss understanding this social aspect of the problem - if we insisted that Islamic terrorism had nothing to do with certain ideas that were believed by and being spread by more than people who have done or will do terrorism, we'd be less likely to find good solutions.
But of course it's also important not to slice too broadly. We don't want to set ourselves against people who we shouldn't be setting ourselves against. It harms innocents and it wastes effort.
I think it's obvious to most everyone that it's just really stupid to look at something like this and blame the whole concept of ideology. But likewise it's pretty dumb to look at some act of terrorism and blame religion in general or Islam (more specifically but still in general). These are really diverse things with a lot of compensating value, and it's really hard to see how someone can actually be concluding that a problem that the incident shows needs to be attacked is as broad as that. It really looks like opportunistically jumping on the incident to advance an anti-religion or anti-Islam cause which is motivated by other things (an opposition to religion as stupid, or racism, or what-have-you).
Here, it's really clear that a lot of what motivated this guy is pretty mainstream among MRA types. That this is mainstream among MRA types isn't even what's being disputed - the ridiculous deflections are about how Rodgers' misogyny didn't have anything to do with what he did, or even in some cases that Rodgers wasn't really a misogynist. This is a really narrowly tailored criticism of a specific set of beliefs - it's much more like criticizing radical Islam or Christian fundamentalism than like criticizing Islam or Christianity or religion in general.
But he was expecting all the girls to flock to him. Like bees to flowers.
s_mirage
Member
I wouldn't expect anything less: she's young, female, and attractive, ideal for the Mail's attention. But of course, this is serious news. I'm sure there's a compelling reason why revealing the identity of someone, that is only tangentially connected to the case, is necessary.
I'm really surprised there haven't been more serious attempts from other parts of the media to blast the Mail for this kind of crap. They're almost as bad for their hypocritical attempts to appear to be bastions of morality, while also having an apparent obsession with very young female celebrities.
EdibleKnife
Member
So what now? Is this going to change any laws or anything like that? He bought his guns legally right? Can there be charges laid on the gun store? His family?
I just see some court cases against the killers family and then its just a matter of time until it happens again.
The family got him help and warned the police. And according to what the law of the area states, as long as he was never involuntarily committed, he could purchase a gun legally. As to what effect this has on gun law, it's a wait and see, but if I were to hazard a guess the conversation will die and the gun lobby will stand their ground like always.
Of course that isn't particularly unusual, but I brought that up in the context of him not actually approaching. I think the point is how he interpreted what he perceived as a lack of attention when he did walk around. Not sure he would have recognised "that look."
Out of Working Order
Member
Well, obviously that was never going to happen.
The impression I got was that he was hoping for a smile or someone to aknowledge that he was attractive. Like any other guy that dresses nicely and is looking for a partner.
m14 - yeah, fair enough. I see what you mean now.
Interesting read which I happen to agree with...
Misogyny Didn’t Turn Elliot Rodger Into a Killer
Misogyny Didn’t Turn Elliot Rodger Into a Killer
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I have gone through it quite thoroughly and unless my memory is failing me, no. The rejections he faced are, as you say, all (again, unless I'm missing some) imagined slights against him, ranging from people looking at his friends and not him, to girls bullying him, to insecurities about his height. He regularly engages in activities with the hope of acquiring women, but repeatedly comments that he is too afraid to actually approach them, in fear of them feeling he is "worthless".
This is the first actual 'rejection', but even then it's not something that he ever stated:
then there's:
EDIT: I'm in the process of posting some highlighted versions of the manifesto (given that it's hard, making notes and taking relevent points made it easier for me to search for components) but he goes into such detail that there are a huge amount of pertinent areas, as, given the level of obsession, it seems quite clear that many, many events haunted him, regardless of how significant they were. I'll try and get a few examples of what his slights consist of when it's done.
I hope you can complete a highlighted version of the manifesto. It makes reading this stuff a lot easier (and even a bit amusing).
The One Who Knocks always has the best posts.
DoktorEvil
Banned
I'm surprised time didn't parallel Rodger with Adam Lanza and tie the whole issue of mental illness together with congressional legislation.
MisterAnderson
Member
After reading through most of the manifesto that was also the first thing I noticed. Never did he actually ever truly get rejected. So often he would write something along the lines of "I would see some blond girl, but was too shy and afraid that she would see me as unworthy of her. I knew I could never have her and it was hell." I'm assuming whenever he'd see a potential girlfriend in his warped mind, and then see another guy with her, he would interpret that as rejection based on his reactions in the manifesto, which aren't rejections at all.
The extent of his efforts to interact with a female that I recall was him walking by a beautiful girl at his school one time, and saying "Hi" to her. She ignored him and walked past him. That was the only time in the manifesto (that I caught) of him actually attempting to interact with a girl. He wrote how angry and rejected he felt from her ignoring her, or something along those lines.
It's one thing to be afraid of rejection and shy, but another to misconstrue these fears into actually being rejected, which from the sounds of it he never actually was (from a girl, that is - his oddities definitely caused him to be rejected by other males more than females it seemed like).
The extent of his efforts to interact with a female that I recall was him walking by a beautiful girl at his school one time, and saying "Hi" to her. She ignored him and walked past him. That was the only time in the manifesto (that I caught) of him actually attempting to interact with a girl. He wrote how angry and rejected he felt from her ignoring her, or something along those lines.
It's one thing to be afraid of rejection and shy, but another to misconstrue these fears into actually being rejected, which from the sounds of it he never actually was (from a girl, that is - his oddities definitely caused him to be rejected by other males more than females it seemed like).
The One Who Knocks
Member
Well, thank you for the compliment, I have actually done so: http://elliotmanifesto.imgur.com/
There is some lack of clarity in the age that he was in some of the events (particularly the "Age 14" and "Age 16" folders) but it is mostly (maybe one or two pictures are out of position, but most are correct) in chronological order. There's quite a significant amount though, because he goes into an insane level of detail.
EDIT: I do wish to say though that it ultimately is actually a very interesting, albeit horribly disturbing, read, and while his style of writing is painfully meticulous and meandering, it does provide a good insight into his outlook.
I pretty much agree with most of what you said. But I would say that groups like PRA Hate and the like are the extremes and MRA in general is the broad 'religion', in this comparison.
Is anyone saying that this guy wasn't misogynistic though? Most people are just saying it's just one aspect of the situation and that there are other factors at play. My contention is that this whole incident is being dumbed down to "MRA influenced a mass murder" by many people. This guy had mental issues. He was seeing psychiatrists and was subscribed several drugs for his condition. It's irresponsible to pin what he did on an entire group.
Aesius
Member
Yeah. He also only acknowledged the Abercrombie and Fitch model types. Tall, blonde haired, and traditionally beautiful.
Any women who didn't fit that mold simply didn't exist to him.
I don't know.
So much of it is so detailed at such an early age that I have a lot of trouble believing that he either remembered or kept records of this. He mentions that he kept a journal but stuff when you're 4 to 5 and remembering names? Come on. I do think he was trying to tell his version of the truth though.
That's one thing about the manifesto, he names names. A shit ton of people are going to be dragged through the mud because of this.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I wonder if that thought was cogent in his thought processes. Like, he was aware that he would probably be dead within the year, and named all these names and disseminated the manifesto as a last 'fuck you' to these poor people.
I think it was more him being detail oriented like in the rest of the manifesto. He wanted to be as accurate as possible and didn't really care or think about the consequences of that.
I was reading this article. Did they really need to put this bit?
"Rodger, a former student at Santa Barbara City College student, was seeking revenge against girls at the school for rejecting him and men on campus they had sex with instead of him. Rodger died a virgin."
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...shooter-video-article-1.1804940#ixzz32reZO4lS
"Rodger, a former student at Santa Barbara City College student, was seeking revenge against girls at the school for rejecting him and men on campus they had sex with instead of him. Rodger died a virgin."
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...shooter-video-article-1.1804940#ixzz32reZO4lS
mugurumakensei
Member
https://mobile.twitter.com/budaska/status/470624651651985408
Sigh. It's already happening. He's getting fan girls on twitter.
Sigh. It's already happening. He's getting fan girls on twitter.
They obviously aren't aware of anything about him except his picture and the headline attached to.
But really, the headline should be plenty to know not to say things like this...
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
I'll never understand people who want attention so bad, they'll do anything for it even if it will cause them to be reviled and hated. I like attention just like every other person does but I'm not willing to gain it by doing something that's going to cause me to be disliked, whether it's something as small as trolling Internet forums and comments sections to straight out murder.
Besides, yes he's got everyone's attention for now, until the next douchebag decides to go on a rampage and maim and kill innocent people. Then he'll be forgotten by everyone except the victims families and his family, who have to suffer the rest of their lives as a result.
are you suggesting that no one researches/looks into these very important indicators?
I think his actions were more than anything the result of his need to have appreciation and validation from society, to satisfy his incredible narcissism. He wants girls as an achievement, a nice tall blond to sit next to him when he drives his car. He wants others to look at him as a success and to be envious of him as he is of others.
People who are sexually frustrated can go to a prostitute or look for casual sex online, but he didn't. He didn't because that wouldn't have given him the validation he desires - there is no achievement in that. He also doesn't go for less attractive girls because he looks at them as trophies. In his eyes if you are rich, tall and hunky your adequacy should be rewarded by an appropriate trophy like a good looking blonde. No wonder he didn't get any girls - regardless of his extreme social awkwardness, he also didn't actually want a girlfriend, he just wanted to have a girlfriend as a status. This is why he obsesses about 'lesser' men dating hot women, he doesn't see why they should deserve such a trophy. More than anything, he wanted to look cool and adequate.
He clearly hates women, but note that despite his hatred of women he did not attempt to rape anyone nor does he mention rape once in his manifesto. You'd think once he decided he was going to go out in a blaze he might perform the most heinous hate crime towards a woman and at least get a taste of (sick) sex before he dies by raping someone, but he didn't. That's because being a rapist isn't a success. People are not jealous of rapists, they look down on them. He wanted to have a pretty girlfriend as a medal for his imaginary greatness. It's a type of narcissism which just boggles the mind. I'd be really interested in hearing how he was diagnosed by his psychiatrists.
People who are sexually frustrated can go to a prostitute or look for casual sex online, but he didn't. He didn't because that wouldn't have given him the validation he desires - there is no achievement in that. He also doesn't go for less attractive girls because he looks at them as trophies. In his eyes if you are rich, tall and hunky your adequacy should be rewarded by an appropriate trophy like a good looking blonde. No wonder he didn't get any girls - regardless of his extreme social awkwardness, he also didn't actually want a girlfriend, he just wanted to have a girlfriend as a status. This is why he obsesses about 'lesser' men dating hot women, he doesn't see why they should deserve such a trophy. More than anything, he wanted to look cool and adequate.
He clearly hates women, but note that despite his hatred of women he did not attempt to rape anyone nor does he mention rape once in his manifesto. You'd think once he decided he was going to go out in a blaze he might perform the most heinous hate crime towards a woman and at least get a taste of (sick) sex before he dies by raping someone, but he didn't. That's because being a rapist isn't a success. People are not jealous of rapists, they look down on them. He wanted to have a pretty girlfriend as a medal for his imaginary greatness. It's a type of narcissism which just boggles the mind. I'd be really interested in hearing how he was diagnosed by his psychiatrists.
"Bullshit notes" is honestly a good term for Elliot's "manifesto". Two-thirds of it reads like the Livejournal of your average boring spoiled teenage brat growing up in suburbia, except for the obsession with detail and OH GOD IF ONLY I COULD HAVE SEX WITH WOMEN mentioned every other paragraph.
It's only toward the end that his writing gets remotely interesting, except by then it's just him babbling on about killing people in his "Day of Retribution" and how he wants a "utopian" society where sex isn't allowed, a laughable byproduct of his sheer rage from not being able to get laid.
After reading all those pages, I want my brain cells back. The only revelation I discovered is that Elliot Rodger was a spoiled silver spoon kid that didn't have the balls to expend any real effort bettering his life or social skills, thanks to a mountain of coddling.
The last line reads: “Finally, at long last, I can show the world my true worth.” In that, he succeeded: Elliot Rodger's corpse as worm food is worth more than the entirety of his sad life's accomplishments. Good riddance.
TrickyDaddy
Banned
He has no worth. And what's even more pathetic is that he hasn't accomplished any of this demented goals he set for the day of his retribution. He killed 3 nerds. 2 kind hearted girls who work hard to maintain their grade point average and volunteer at charities along with 1 girlfriend-less guy.
His attack was aimless just like his life.
That's the truth. No need to sugarcoat it.
It would have been better had his suicide attempt been unsuccessful. He deserved to rot in jail.
not psycho
Member
Even if you dismiss the possibility that cultural misogyny affected him in any way (a stance that makes no sense to me), that does not imply that cultural anti-misogyny could have no effect on him.
It's clear that his extreme misogyny was a key factor in feeling lonely and rejected. He considered most of the world worthless because they didn't meet his standards of attraction. He had such a twisted entitlement towards women that he felt rejected despite making no effort. His "best case" scenario was getting rich because then his stereotyped, objectified version of women would have to flock to him. He never imagined, at any time, in any scenario, having empathy and respect for women. Hatred of women was a mainstay. The world would be an awful place if you despised half of humanity and considered them objects that you were entitled to, so no wonder his world was an awful place.
There is never going to be absolute proof like "if he didn't visit this one particular misogynistic website, he wouldn't have done it." Asking for that kind of proof is disingenuous, and would lead to dismissing it every single time. The fact is misogyny was a central part of his life and his acts. Maybe exposure to misogyny shaped him, maybe it crystallized or validated his ideas, maybe exposure to anti-misogyny could have stopped him (as well as cutting back on the feelings of loneliness and rejection, because the world seems a lot more fair when it is occupied by empathetic people than when it is occupied by evil objects which inexplicably aren't drawn to you). There are people out there with scarily similar ideas to his, so it's better not to wait for the next time (which would still be dismissed the same way if you require proof of a "decisive" factor) before doing something about it.
It's clear that his extreme misogyny was a key factor in feeling lonely and rejected. He considered most of the world worthless because they didn't meet his standards of attraction. He had such a twisted entitlement towards women that he felt rejected despite making no effort. His "best case" scenario was getting rich because then his stereotyped, objectified version of women would have to flock to him. He never imagined, at any time, in any scenario, having empathy and respect for women. Hatred of women was a mainstay. The world would be an awful place if you despised half of humanity and considered them objects that you were entitled to, so no wonder his world was an awful place.
There is never going to be absolute proof like "if he didn't visit this one particular misogynistic website, he wouldn't have done it." Asking for that kind of proof is disingenuous, and would lead to dismissing it every single time. The fact is misogyny was a central part of his life and his acts. Maybe exposure to misogyny shaped him, maybe it crystallized or validated his ideas, maybe exposure to anti-misogyny could have stopped him (as well as cutting back on the feelings of loneliness and rejection, because the world seems a lot more fair when it is occupied by empathetic people than when it is occupied by evil objects which inexplicably aren't drawn to you). There are people out there with scarily similar ideas to his, so it's better not to wait for the next time (which would still be dismissed the same way if you require proof of a "decisive" factor) before doing something about it.
IISANDERII
Member
His housemate Spencer heard his ragings? I wonder why he said nothing. Has the media spoken to him?
But are these ideas external to him and others, like say, a religion or cult? Or are they internal and going outward, making the forums you see a symptom of a broader underlying issue? I feel that the former is just not believable. The feelings of resentment, the anger - those things that cause them to congregate in the dark recesses of the internet, they're coming from within. This stuff transcends all national and cultural borders and is grappled with on a daily basis by the entire world. It's not a religion, it's not a dogma. It's just pure negative emotion.
neurosisxeno
Member
I would say Entitlement and Mental Illness were the motivating factors. As mentioned, he never once mentions Rape or Sexual Assault when discussing women in his manifesto, which means it wasn't that he wanted to physically dominate and control women, if anything he just wanted them to validate his existance. He wanted women to acknowledge him because he felt he deserved that. He is the culmination of this growing sentiment that being a "nice guy" means women are supposed to give you affection, which is flawed and ridiculous. You see it all the time on forums and social media, teenagers complaining about how they are so nice and caring but women won't give them the time of day because they only date douchebags. Honestly, I was at a point in my life one of those kids, but I smartened up and stopped treating women like objects you earned and started treating them like people--which is something a lot of people struggle with apparently.
Also, people with Aspbergers have a hard time understanding social interaction and interpreting society as a whole. I have a 5 year old brother who is on the Autism Spectrum with a disorder very similar to Aspbergers, and whenever he wants attention he runs up and smacks my 9 year old sister or pulls her hair. He doesn't do it because he's mad at her, or because he thinks it's okay, it's because all he really acknowledges is the cause and effect. He wants attention, and he knows if he does one of those things he will get it. On top of that, he has no concept of how society tries to tell him he should be. He loves One Direction and Bruno Mars. He loves dancing more than anything. He loves playing with my sisters Barbie Dolls. He often wants the Pink versions of things because they are brighter and more lively. He has no interest in Sports despite my Stepfather trying as hard as he can to push him towards them. Granted he's still a little kid, but the point I'm trying to make is that by and large, people with Aspbergers and other social interaction disorders on the Autism Spectrum generally aren't as affected by societal pressures as those without. I think the major issue is because they don't understand social interaction the same way. Where as most kids at a young age would start embracing the things society pushes us towards to avoid embarassment and to achieve acceptance from our peers. Aspbergers makes that nearly impossible.
At the end of the day, this kid doesn't seem like a message from the MRA community, not that they deserve any respect. He seems like a confused, lonely, angry, entitled, mentally ill kid who couldn't cope and just couldn't manage to get the help he needed.
Also, people with Aspbergers have a hard time understanding social interaction and interpreting society as a whole. I have a 5 year old brother who is on the Autism Spectrum with a disorder very similar to Aspbergers, and whenever he wants attention he runs up and smacks my 9 year old sister or pulls her hair. He doesn't do it because he's mad at her, or because he thinks it's okay, it's because all he really acknowledges is the cause and effect. He wants attention, and he knows if he does one of those things he will get it. On top of that, he has no concept of how society tries to tell him he should be. He loves One Direction and Bruno Mars. He loves dancing more than anything. He loves playing with my sisters Barbie Dolls. He often wants the Pink versions of things because they are brighter and more lively. He has no interest in Sports despite my Stepfather trying as hard as he can to push him towards them. Granted he's still a little kid, but the point I'm trying to make is that by and large, people with Aspbergers and other social interaction disorders on the Autism Spectrum generally aren't as affected by societal pressures as those without. I think the major issue is because they don't understand social interaction the same way. Where as most kids at a young age would start embracing the things society pushes us towards to avoid embarassment and to achieve acceptance from our peers. Aspbergers makes that nearly impossible.
At the end of the day, this kid doesn't seem like a message from the MRA community, not that they deserve any respect. He seems like a confused, lonely, angry, entitled, mentally ill kid who couldn't cope and just couldn't manage to get the help he needed.
The One and Done
Member
What do you say when something like thus happens? Should mourn the victims of this tragedy? What do you think about the murderer being dead now? Do we look at this as an indictment on American values? How do we approach such a topic appropriately? Yes it's an awful tragedy. But where do we go from here? What's the right thing?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
The difference is if the statement comes with self-awareness. Sometimes it seems like it doesn't, so it just seems the person hasn't even considered the other side.
OrlanisWorks
Banned
Yeah, let's spend tax dollars on him. I'd disagree with you 'till the end of days.
I'm going to give people the benefit of the doubt until they lose it. And if they continue in a discussion and do hold problematic views, usually they'll have no problems hanging themselves on their own words and making it explicitly clear to everyone what's going on.
There were many posters (and one just a few post ago) who mentioned having a similar "resentful" viewpoint at an earlier time in their lives. The self-awareness is baked into those statements.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
I'd still prefer that over capital punishment.
I think it's more accurate to say that the MRA extremists are the KKK, and MRA in general are "White Power" activists.
I'm not sympathizing with what this kid did, but I kind of know how he felt. However I did take the medication that was prescribed to me and thankfully I was able to snap out of it.
I used to go to cafe's and sit there by myself asking myself how guys that looked far much worse than I did, managed to get a beautiful girlfriend. I used to drive around town and go out into the country to watch the sunset and just sulk because I did not have a girlfriend, I really did feel hopeless. Thank fuck that I didn't totally fall off a cliff mentally like this guy did. Sometimes I still get depressed but I snap out of it really fast.
I used to go to cafe's and sit there by myself asking myself how guys that looked far much worse than I did, managed to get a beautiful girlfriend. I used to drive around town and go out into the country to watch the sunset and just sulk because I did not have a girlfriend, I really did feel hopeless. Thank fuck that I didn't totally fall off a cliff mentally like this guy did. Sometimes I still get depressed but I snap out of it really fast.
We had a thread on GAF not too long ago where someone posted that they have a roommate who gets furious and rages when he hears someone upstairs having sex. I don't think it's the same guy, but it goes to show that it's possible a roommate might have said something and nobody reacted.
Yeah, the was weird as shit. Hope that thread starter has been reading this and gets the fuck outta there. Definitely not normal behavior.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Really? You probably know more about that group then me but I've watched a few mins of that video that is posted around her of that MRA woman and she didn't come off as the gender equivalent of a white power activist or anything like this killer. I'm not familiar with them but I'm assuming white power activist is another word for white supremacist.
EscoBlades
Ubisoft Marketing
Apologies if this has already been posted (i scanned back a few pages and didn't see it)
Elliot Rodger and the Price of Toxic Masculinity by Dr Nerdlove.
Elliot Rodger and the Price of Toxic Masculinity by Dr Nerdlove.
It's the better analogy. I'm sure there are some people who "reasonably" claim to be just for equal rights for white people, just as some MRAs "reasonably" claim to be just for equal rights for men. They're both fighting against social progress on behalf of the enfranchised, while lamenting the unfairness of small gains for the disempowered.
Yeah. This is the argument I have been making also. Of course no one has the real answer, but it does seem to be the one that is most fitting of Rodgers personality.
His hatred of women is the subject that pops up most often, but that is because it was also the thing in his life at the time that was of most concern. He was obsessed with forming a relationship and losing his virginity. However, it is clear he pretty much hated everyone. One of the key things to point out is his plot to murder his stepmother and brother. This was an extremely mentally unstable person who it seems had the potential react violently against anyone and anything that he deemed was an attack against him.
The other thing to point out is that misogynistic culture doesn't seem to be the thing that shaped his views on women, his perceived rejection from women, which he speaks of frequently, seems to have shaped his views on women. In my opinion anyway. In one video he asks women, "why are you so repulsed by me?". His view on women seemed to be that they hated him, so he hated them for it.
As I have mentioned before, some people view it as his warped sense of entitlement to women, but what they see as entitlement can also quite easily be explained as his built up anger and bitterness towards women due to his belief that women despised him.
Which is a byproduct of his obvious sense of entitlement. And massively fragile ego.
So fragile in fact, that anything short of absolute and effortless dominance of pretty much every situation and person he comes across is a a direct and vicious slight.
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