CadetMahoney
Member
Have any of the mainstream television news mentioned anything about virginity and so on in their reports, they tend to shy away from anything to do with sex and censor the info to more neutral language.
Seven Dead, Several Hospitalized in Isla Vista Mass Shooting
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Well, I suppose it is how you're defining 'entitlement'. I'm looking at it in the more political sense of the word, where supposedly he has been taught by society that he is entitled to sex and women's attention.
I see it gets quite muddy though. He was extremely obsessed with forming a relationship and having sex, and his inability to do that caused him misery and sadness. It seems to be, as it is the most obvious thing, the cause of his bitterness and hatred of women. He can't have what he most desires.
Some people may call it entitlement, but I can kind of see that someone in that position is obviously going to be extremely frustrated and sad. We're hard-wired to seek out sex and relationship, we can't escape it, and so rejection is always going to have some negative consequence. The difference with Rodger was, the way he perceived things and reacted to things was extreme.
I'm not going to lie but i do a lot of times feel the way the killer felt , not in a sense that i wanna kill somebody but just that I sometimes feel alone. I a lot of times force myself to go to parties and stuff but when i'm there I just feel like i don't belong there or do people really want me to be there. I guess you can say I have an inferiority complex and it takes a toll on my self esteem.
Reading what you described, the average person feels how you do. Not the killer.
He's feeling and thinking some next-level unfathomable shit compared to sometimes feeling alienation and loneliness.
A good point made right here but something I'd like to address:
I don't think it was sexual inadequacy tbh. I haven't read his manifesto but just from watching a couple of his videos its obvious he's not sex crazed, its something else entirely. What seems to be a central focus is that he desires is pure validation from society. Validation from his peers. Which falls in with his isolated troubled past.
Yes he cries about being a virgin in every video, but why didn't he spend time with the pretend girlfriends his father tried to arrange for him, or considered rape or prostitution? Because it didn't give him validation. He wanted that validation and acceptance in his society, not sex! Inside his brain, getting attention from the hottest blonde in his school meant getting that validation from society, and that, to me, seems to be the reason why he laments his situation. Being desired by such women would mean he was being accepted and acknowledged by society from which he felt alienated.
That's his narcissism at play. But people with narcissistic personality disorder do go on to achieve high job posts in society. But those people don't have the coupling of further mental deterioration which hampers their social skillset. They are still able to integrate with society despite despising most of their peers and co-workers. Rodger's mind didn't have that capability to integrate with society due to his Aspeger's, bullying history, etc. He got sidelined from society by his own behavior. It all culminated in frustration and ultimately reached a boiling point where he felt he needed to fight back and kill that very own society that kicked him to the curb.
Well, yeah, he was an extremely complex individual. A seemingly contradictory individual as well. The idea that he was extremely upset and lonely can only be based on what he said. Whether you believe him is another thing though
He did explain in his manifesto why he didn't consider prostitutes though.
It's weird noticing the differences some posters in forums I visit are treating Rodger compared to Tryavon Martin. With Rodgers their saying they understand where he was coming from and he was just a poor guy who was mentally ill; compared with Martin where they described him as a violent thug who attacked Zimmerman and was responsible for getting himself killed. Its just strange how some people can have sympathy for someone who killed six people, yet have none for someone killed while walking home.
(Cause they're racist too.)
If you're going by what I posted , I have no sympathy for the killer at all. What he did was pure evil. There's no rational way to justify or defend what he did.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Its due to Racism, plain and simple
and no one should have sympathy for this punk, he wrote a god damn manifesto about "retribution day" where he would get revenge against the world because women didn't give him the pleasure he felt he deserved. Dude was an insane scumbag before he was murderer.
not psycho
Member
That's a false dichotomy. The culture you live in affects your ideas, but that doesn't mean you can't develop your own ideas.
And again, I'm not saying I can prove anything either way. I think it is very likely that culture played a big role in setting up his toxic view of relationships between men and women, which in turn enabled him to view events as people torturing him. It is possible, but far less certain, that finding like-minded individuals eventually validated his own ideas, or gave them clarity (he does say every man should read that website). Or maybe it made his "cause" feel more grandiose, and spurred him to action. And maybe not.
I wonder how much his therapist knew about his hatred of women, and if they did anything to combat it. Also, what the police were told about it. Or if it went unnoticed, by being so common, and nobody was told.
Feeling rejected does not have to lead to violent anger (or any anger for that matter). Not having women chase you as you drive down the street in an expensive car does not have to lead to feeling rejected. It's not obviously or logically going to happen. But it can if you combine it with misogyny; if you combine it with a hateful and objectifying framework in which women are objects that belong to those with high status, making them evil for not recognizing his high status, and for hanging out with people of lesser status.
Speaking naively of "feeling rejected" is painful to keep reading in this thread when the "rejected" party rejects most of the world as worthless, through reasons of misogyny and racism, and is angry that the women he accepts as attractive (without an iota of empathy for them as humans) are not flocking to him for his expensive car and glasses. Come on.
Yes, he perceived it as being unfairly rejected. But that perception was already heavily colored by hatred and objectification.
I feel like this is going in circles. Based on what he said, he felt women were repulsed by him and looked down upon him. He believed women hated him. First point.
Second point: He was clearly a mentally unstable person who throughout his life reacted in a way that was hugely disproportionate to that which triggered the reaction. Rejection does not have to lead to violent anger, no, not in 'normal' people, but Rodger was not a normal person. You seem to be ignoring the fact that he actually hated everyone, and the way he perceived the world was extreme. He plotted to kill his stepmother and brother simply because he perceived his brother was going to be more successful than him, and his stepmother apparently stated this. Whether that was directly or indirectly aimed at Rodger, I'm not sure. he seemed to think so, but it could be delusional. Maybe she just complimented his brother and he took it as a slight against him.
The point is, misogyny didn't somehow create a mass murderer in him, his own toxic personality created that.
Or with dzhokhar tsarnaev people do the logical thing and call him a terrorist and monster. I don't seem to recall there being a big lengthy discussion over the governments policies towards muslim nations or other people trying to understand his plight.
These are bad comparisons mainly because with Rodger there's video and extensive written insight into what he was thinking. With Treyvon we only saw the prosecution and trial and the mud flinging by both sides. And with Dzhokhar there actually were people that showed sympathy simply because it was found out that he was basically brainwashed and groomed by his older brother. That didn't excuse his actions though. He turned into a monster. Just like Rodger. Not sure anyone would disagree with calling him that.
ryutaro's mama
Member
I mentioned this to someone as well. People in the media were bending into knots trying to "understand" Rodger and how he could have gotten to this point. How the system failed him. How it was a tragedy...meanwhile, when Martin was killed, they gave people a platform to attack his character, show his FB pics, debate if he was a "thug" and deserved it, etc.
Yes, IMO, there was a very obvious difference in the approach that the media took in these two high profile incidents.
Everyone feels like this mate. Just realise that you're not the only one and you'll find your niche/group some day.
ryutaro's mama
Member
He didn't get to be the victim for long. Within days, people on TV debating whether Zimmerman was in the right to stalk him, ultimately defend himself (when Trayvon allegedly attacked him) and kill him. Trayvon was never truly treated as an unarmed victim killed walking home.
The media allowed his character to be called into question almost immediately.
Reading through his wiki entry now, which has a pretty good rundown on some of the sick things he did.
And he wondered why girls didn't like him? People in general didn't like him. No surprise when he acted as deluded and grandiose as he did.
And he wondered why girls didn't like him? People in general didn't like him. No surprise when he acted as deluded and grandiose as he did.
They interviewed her father. They got paid.
Also, is it accurate to say he hated women in general? From reading his manifesto it's clear the only thing that would make him happy would be to have a girlfriend and be able to kiss and hold her. I get why his simplistic idea of a girlfriend could be perceived as misogynistic, but I still think it's too easy to label him a women-hater and be done with it.
He seemed to hate the women who he subconsciously perceived as too good for him, and the pretty ones who chose to be with other men. But he also seemed to hate the men just as much for stealing the women away from him and possessing the attributes he did not have.
He hated everyone who felt wronged him, and to me it was more complex than him being a misogynist.
Wow, that is a really good piece and I'm only partway through it. I had never even heard of "PUAHate," "incel," and "red pill," and other communities that I'm sure the article will mention. Very disturbing, it's a whole culture I was only vaguely aware of.
Edit: I thought the scroll bar on my tablet meant there was more here, but it's just the comments, I was almost done, not "partway through," so this piece was a lot shorter than I thought. It's still good I just thought it was going to go a lot deeper.
You can be both mentally ill and a misogynist. They're not mutually exclusive.
User 100115
Banned
I find it really, really upsetting that all the women that were posting in this thread where completely dismissed and drowned out in favor of 'no true misogynist'.
And now everyone is discussing how much he wasn't a misogynist so we don't have to worry about that, he was just crazy.
EdibleKnife
Member
One of his quotes from a incel board stated that his fellows should "Start envisioning a world where WOMEN FEAR YOU."
The last few paragraphs of his thesis include:
Elliot Rodger said:
He hated women in general. Women that he saw and women that he didn't see. While I recognize and encourage people to note his mental stability, I still feel that discussions that delve into his warped views (views that are not dissimilar from rhetoric often on extremist Men's rights boards) are still just as valid. Both intertwined to create a person that hated women and considered murder as a sound solution for his issues.
I'm not quite up to the point where he must detail the concentration camp thing, perhaps my perception will change as he becomes further unhinged.
I was just reading the part where he was in a Starbucks and got to so enraged by a couple passionately kissing that he followed them in his car until they walked to a quiet area, and flung his coffee at them.
Seems to me he was reacting to people who enjoyed things he felt unable to attain, or symbols of his unfulfilled desires.
Chuckie
Member
Did we really read the same manifesto? He wanted to put EVERY woman on earth in concentration camps and let them starve to death, save a few to be used as breeding machines. He tried to push a random girl of a ledge, he threw coffee at girls.
He didn't actually want a girlfriend... he wanted a hot tall blonde trophy because he felt he deserved it more than those slobs and dirty mexicans/asians/blacks who actually dated.
WhereAreMahDragonz
Banned
If we ignore the problem it'll go away, right?
Vermillion
Banned
Because...?
User 100115
Banned
Or we can pretend his views were just crazy and not echoed by a frankly terrifying amount of people while also sympathizing for for the poor lonely bullied kid.
Well, shit.
Clearly he really unleashed the crazy later on. I genuinely hadn't read that yet.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
The pushback against the misogyny stuff is so strange. Whats the reason for it? Is it just people who are tired of hearing about misogyny kneejerk reacting without reading the details?
Generally it'd be recommended to read all of the book before commenting on the ending. Or at least get Cliff Notes. (I recommend the ones by The One Who Knocks")
There's two versions of it.
There's pushback against him being mysogynistic at all. This is idiotic dumb stuff.
There's also pushback against people trying to say it was the only thing that mattered in what occurred. That lumping him in with the mentally ill hurts their status as a group. That's where the non-crazy pushback is.
User 100115
Banned
It's more comfortable for people to label him as simply nuts because then they don't have to face the reality that the toxic views a lot of men and society in general hold of women are part of the problem.
I'm yet to finish it, I'm up to the part in 'The Endgame' when he moves to Santa Barbara.
Shortly before that, he speaks of envisioning a scenario where he would walk hand in hand with his girlfriend on the beach, then take her home and sleep next to her, snuggling into her warmth.
Clearly something changes between him creating these romantic scenarios in his head, and the concentration camp shit. Wowee.
But man, I can relate to him because feeling lonely is super unique to losers and only occurs within those of us who are rejected by women.
Militant feminism is still on the nose. Across the internet I get the sense a lot of people have been put out by 'feminists' jumping on this case and using it as a vehicle for their message.
You should see some of the stuff that Caitlin Stasey (actress from Reign who is a proud feminist) has been copping (and giving back) on Twitter. Pretty sad stuff.
Actually, I can assure you, that for me at least, I am not claiming he wasn't a misogynist. The argument seems to be however, that his misogyny was somehow projected on him by society, that it is society that is to blame for this. Society is where he somehow got these toxic views that all women must be killed.
My point however has always been that, I don't really see why this view is more plausible than the fact that he actually had problems forming relationships and developed a view that all women hated him. He didn't understand why women were so repulsed by him, he said in one video.
Isn't it at least reasonable to suggest that the reason he became so misogynistic was because of a built up anger from constant rejection, and perhaps a delusional sense that all women hated him?
And another thing I disagree with is people's insistence to try and trivialise the extent in which mental illness plays in this. It is true that a huge percentage of people suffering with mental illness will not turn into mass murderers, but we're not talking about all cases, we're talking about this particular case. And the truth is, there is a strong correlation between mental illness and mass shootings. Also, considering his mental issues were a part of what defined his personality and view of reality, they are relevant to the discussion.
That time article makes a good point actually: we should be focusing on improving the mental health system rather than undermining it. If people want to focus on the misogynistic aspects of it as they feel it is important to do so, that is fine, but don't do so at the expense of the other obvious underlying issue he had which needs to be brought to attention and thought about being improved.
Someone with a Walter White avatar would say this
I never said I didn't think he was a misogynist, just that I thought it was more complex than a single label.
User 100115
Banned
You can't be rejected if never actually approach people. He believed that women were owed to him because he was a superior alpha male, and was pissed they weren't flocking to him.
And I am not dismissing mental illness. I think the only thing that separates him from (hopefully) the majority of people that spew similar rhetoric on PUA sites or the Red Pill was mental illness.
The internet is stacked with lonely men who blame women and feminists on all their problems. It must be pretty jarring to see that ideology taken to its extreme, look at that mirror, and then admit that there might be something wrong with the way you're looking at life. Because hey, they're nice guys.
User 100115
Banned
People aren't pure blank slates that society pours itself into...
but neither are they the product of only the things that happen to them personally, with no influence from the outside.
Sure, it wouldn't be correct to say that "society" by itself and alone turned this guy into a misogynist. But it's reasonable to suggest that while his life experience of not immediately getting what he thought he was owed may have pushed him in a certain direction, the toxic mess of misogynist garbage he frequently bathed in (take a look at some of the sites he posted on) pulled him further along that path.
but neither are they the product of only the things that happen to them personally, with no influence from the outside.
Sure, it wouldn't be correct to say that "society" by itself and alone turned this guy into a misogynist. But it's reasonable to suggest that while his life experience of not immediately getting what he thought he was owed may have pushed him in a certain direction, the toxic mess of misogynist garbage he frequently bathed in (take a look at some of the sites he posted on) pulled him further along that path.
He most likely would not have held these views if society did not, to a degree, tolerate misogyny.
I suppose we're both selectively looking at different aspects of what he said. He also said that women were repulsed by him and looked down on him and he didn't understand why. He mentioned a lot about how he had tried to improve himself to make himself more attractive to women. He claimed he wanted to prove he is worthy of their affection. The latter statement suggest he was putting women on a pedestal in that he felt he had to show he was worthy of them. It's contradictory,
I will say though that when he states being the 'superior gentleman', or 'superior alpha-male' he is claiming why he is better than all the other guys he sees as 'obnoxious brutes'. I don't entirely see it as conclusive proof that he grew up believing he was somehow entitled to women through simple fact of being a man.
And in terms of the mental illness part of it, that is simply my own perception of how some have reacted to it in this thread and it's not necessarily aimed at you. Not that they completely dismiss that side, but they feel it isn't the real focus.
However, in terms of Rodger, there is evidence to suggest that his conclusion to things were influenced in a large part by his own mental instability.
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