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[Karkador]

This was an interesting read from someone named Lenny Shaw who spent a little bit of time talking with Elliot Rodger.

https://www.facebook.com/lenny.shaw.5/posts/10203423576165066?fref=nf

First post here so I'm not sure I did that link correctly. Sorry.

Yeah, interesting read, thanks for that - I've been waiting to hear more from people who actually knew him (especially his family, but that might take a long while)
This person is saying "it was mental illness, nothing else", though, when it probably was more of a mix of things. People cite mental illness as the critical factor, rather than the misogyny, the guns, the videogames, whatever.

Shooting cases where there's a link to violent videogames? The defense is pretty much airtight nowadays- "don't blame violent videogames, it was mental illness. Not all gamers are violent'. Okay.

Shooting cases where there's an irresponsible ease of access to firearms? NRA people come out, "don't blame guns, it was mental illness. Not all gun owners are criminals, guns don't kill people", etc. Okay.

So what's the defense for the blatant misogyny? Don't blame misogyny? Not all misogynists are violent? Leave the hateful women-hating people and communities out of this? Misogyny is okay as long as it's not in the wrong hands?

While a 1st and 2nd Amendment argument may be made in favor guns and violent media, "our freedoms", I don't see the point in defending misogyny, or excusing it because it was the fault of mental illness.

 

[someday]

Conflating empathy/understanding with sympathy is really, really weird to me. When people discuss what may have led him to hold those views, they're not trying to say he was correct to do so. When they discuss how his mental illness may have led to an echo chamber of hatred he was unable to break free of, they're not saying that this excuses what he did. "What led this guy from newborn baby to hate-filled miosgynist?" is a question worth asking and discussing.

Honestly, there have been plenty of pleas for empathy for this guy. But, a lot of women have posted here and their stories or feelings have been ignored or argued against. Maybe it would be a start if there was some empathy for them. We've also tried to point out some thoughts we have about what might have led him to his ultimate ending and where else it shows up in society, but that discussion has been downplayed as well. I don't feel like most people here really want an honest discussion and if there was ever a time to do it, it would be now.

 

[Lafiel]

How mental illness manifests itself is shaped by the environment. It doesn't exist in isolation. Hence why I'm skeptical of anyone who tries to claim that Eliot Rodgers was just a fucked up kid and if it wasn't misogyny that was his trigger it would have been something else.

Probably something that has been said several times in this thread already though.

 

[Mumei]

Here's a neat blog post about the #yesallwomen hashtag and the men's rights people.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astr..._discussing_women_s_issues_gets_derailed.html

Phil Plait: The Bad Astronomer.

It's a good article; there's also a great list of feminist essays, editorials, 'thinkpieces' (words cannot express my distaste for this word), blog posts, etc. about the shooting on Feministing.

A few stand-outs from that list that I've actually read:

Let’s call the Isla Vista killings what they were: misogynist extremism by Laurie Penny at The New Statesman

The ideology behind these attacks – and there is ideology – is simple. Women owe men. Women, as a class, as a sex, owe men sex, love, attention, “adoration”, in Rodger’s words. We owe them respect and obedience, and our refusal to give it to them is to blame for their anger, their violence – stupid sluts get what they deserve. Most of all, there is an overpowering sense of rage and entitlement: the conviction that men have been denied a birthright of easy power.

Masculinity, Violence, and Bandaid Solutions by Miri Mogilevsky at Brute Reason

You will not hear that Black people who commit violent acts are never presumed to be mentally ill; they’re just presumed to be Black. You will not hear about how it’s only “terrorism” if a brown person does it; the fact that it’s politically motivated and intended to terrorize a particular group of people is not, apparently, enough. You will hear a lot about “not all men,” but you will not hear that misandry irritates and misogyny kills.

Elliot Rodger and Men Who Hate Women at The Belle Jar

We don’t know if Elliot Rodger was mentally ill. We don’t know if he was a “madman.” We do know that he was desperately lonely and unhappy, and that the Men’s Rights Movement convinced him that his loneliness and unhappiness was intentionally caused by women. Because this is what the Men’s Rights Movement does: it spreads misogyny, it spreads violence, and most of all it spreads a sense of entitlement towards women’s bodies. Pretending that this is the a rare act perpetrated by a “crazy” person is disingenuous and also does nothing to address the threat of violence that women face every day

Pickup artists argue that “Game” is the solution to Elliot Rodger-style rampages. Here’s why they’re wrong by David Futrelle at We Hunted the Mammoth

So how much of a solution is training a guy who is already filled with a toxic mixture of entitlement and self-loathing (yes, these strange bedfellows do often go together) in some techniques that might help him to tamp down his insecurities enough to manipulate some willing or not-so-willing women into bed?

You might have simply turned a mass killer into a serial rapist, or possibly a serial killer.

Elliott Rodger and the Price of Toxic Masculinity by Harris O’Malley at Paging Dr. Nerdlove

Maybe he was dealing with some sort of mental health issue. Maybe he was a sociopath. Maybe it was both. Maybe he was a skilled enough manipulator that he was able to tell the therapists what they wanted to hear. We don’t know. We may never know. But in the end, that’snot an explanation. That is just a way of compartmentalizing him, separating him out from the rest of the male population. A systematic “Not All Men”, as it were. It does far more harm, increasing the stigma of people who do suffer from mental illness and – more importantly – glosses over the real issue.

 

[Damaniel]

Father of one of the victims does not give a fuck about your useless sympathy

Sadly, gun control discussion will be the only thing that doesn't come out of this. If 20 dead schoolchildren at Sandy Hook didn't do it, this shooting won't either. We spend far too much time letting the NRA act like the victims of gun violence, when in reality they're co-perpetrators at a minimum.

 

[kirblar]

Your third link is broken Mumei - had not seen the first two yet but they are very, very good reads. And I thought this excerpt from the Penny article put some of the empathy stuff into a much more eloquent context than I've been able to do so far:

Today, what I hear from many men and boys who talk to me about gender justice - decent, humane men and boys of the kind the twenty-teens are also, blessedly, producing in great numbers - is fear and bewilderment. Who are these people? Where do they live? And the unspoken fear: do I know them? Might I have met some of them, drunk with them? If the wind had changed when I was growing, if I had read different books and had different friends, might it have been me? If any man is capable of this, is every man capable of it?

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Sadly, gun control discussion will be the only thing that doesn't come out of this. If 20 dead schoolchildren at Sandy Hook didn't do it, this shooting won't either. We spend far too much time letting the NRA act like the victims of gun violence, when in reality they're co-perpetrators at a minimum.

They've won by wearing people down with the same old arguments, the same old deflections and the same old stubbornness. It just feels pointless to even talk about it anymore when every single time you're hit with the same script from the same deeply entrenched people. It's obvious that nothings going to change on that front. I applaud what Richard Martinez is doing, it's extremely brave of him but it will be met with the same resistance as usual and nothing will change.

 

[ICKE]

Sadly, gun control discussion will be the only thing that doesn't come out of this. If 20 dead schoolchildren at Sandy Hook didn't do it, this shooting won't either. We spend far too much time letting the NRA act like the victims of gun violence, when in reality they're co-perpetrators at a minimum.

There's also the thing that a segment of the population believe in conspiracies and tend to be vocal. Infowars is calling this tragedy yet another false flag operation to take guns from law abiding citizens and how the shooter was visiting professionals etc.

 

[someday]

Sadly, gun control discussion will be the only thing that doesn't come out of this. If 20 dead schoolchildren at Sandy Hook didn't do it, this shooting won't either. We spend far too much time letting the NRA act like the victims of gun violence, when in reality they're co-perpetrators at a minimum.

I'm still positively stunned that 20 dead 5 and 6 year olds didn't net any real change in our gun laws. I didn't think it was possible but if that didn't do anything, nothing will.

 

[Messofanego]

A few stand-outs from that list that I've actually read:

Elliott Rodger and the Price of Toxic Masculinity by Harris O’Malley at Paging Dr. Nerdlove

Maybe he was dealing with some sort of mental health issue. Maybe he was a sociopath. Maybe it was both. Maybe he was a skilled enough manipulator that he was able to tell the therapists what they wanted to hear. We don’t know. We may never know. But in the end, that’s not an explanation. That is just a way of compartmentalizing him, separating him out from the rest of the male population. A systematic “Not All Men”, as it were. It does far more harm, increasing the stigma of people who do suffer from mental illness and – more importantly – glosses over the real issue.

Saw this article make the rounds, great piece on why we need to examine the deeper problems in culture about masculinity and perception of women that he's probably a symptom of than just if he was mentally unstable or not. Feel like schools should be teaching these things at an earlier age now than just college/university.

 

[andymcc]

There's also the thing that a segment of the population believe in conspiracies and tend to be vocal. Infowars is calling this tragedy yet another false flag operation to take guns from law abiding citizens and how the shooter was visiting professionals etc.

From my facebook:

"They must really assume that they have society brainwashed pretty good if they honestly expect the masses to swallow this obvious deception. Actor, and a bad one at that."

People are fucking stupid.

 

[entremet]

So the parents did their due diligence--provided therapy, called the cops when they suspected the worse, but nothing happened.

I wonder how future requests will be handed after this tragedy

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

So the parents did their due diligence--provided therapy, called the cops when they suspected the worse, but nothing happened.

I wonder how future requests will be handed after this tragedy

The Onion's on it:

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131

 

[Infinite]

Sure, but society is reflecting the people who created it. Men ARE the problem, and that means having to look at the Men and trying to determine why a subset are victimizing women. When the discussion turns in that direction some seem to get upset because they see it as being sympathy towards the perpetrators, when it's not intended as such.

I don't think I disagree with this.

 

[GaimeGuy]

The Onion's on it:

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131

 

[entremet]

The Onion's on it:

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131

Wasn't there provisions in the last gun bill to do background checks for mental diagnoses? It was defeated by the Republican in Congress.

 

[Maidenpool?]

If Mom and Dad had checked his credit card statements, they would have seen the guns.... and probably would have told the police about the guns....

 

[besada]

You come back into the thread after a hiatus and the first thing you do is talk about how crappy the discussion on the last ten pages was.

Yes, you're both guilty of indulging in meta-commentary rather than directly addressing the topic of the thread. You're welcome to continue to do so via PM. Otherwise, cut it out.

 

[Halcyon]

If Mom and Dad has checked his credit card statements, they would have seen the guns.... and probably would have told the police about the guns....

He was an adult. Should we legislate that your parents are allowed access to your bank account information?

 

[Infinite]

If Mom and Dad has checked his credit card statements, they would have seen the guns.... and probably would have told the police about the guns....

At twenty two my mom was not checking my credit card statements. Let's not do this.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

So the parents did their due diligence--provided therapy, called the cops when they suspected the worse, but nothing happened.

I wonder how future requests will be handed after this tragedy

If Mom and Dad had checked his credit card statements, they would have seen the guns.... and probably would have told the police about the guns....

It didn't take long to find out I guess.

 

[entremet]

If Mom and Dad had checked his credit card statements, they would have seen the guns.... and probably would have told the police about the guns....

Were the CCs under their name, though?

He's over 18, so he could've had his own CC.

 

[Halcyon]

Wasn't there provisions in the last gun bill to do background checks for mental diagnoses? It was defeated by the Republican in Congress.

That bill was about extending background checks in internet sale transactions and more at gun shows.


It had nothing to do with legally purchased firearms.

 

[Willectro]

Sadly, gun control discussion will be the only thing that doesn't come out of this. If 20 dead schoolchildren at Sandy Hook didn't do it, this shooting won't either. We spend far too much time letting the NRA act like the victims of gun violence, when in reality they're co-perpetrators at a minimum.

What about the 3 who were stabbed? I guess knife control needs to be looked at as well.

No trying to sound insensitive here, but I think people are super quick to look at gun control which, in the US, is going to be next to impossible to implement at this point given the number of firearms in circulation. I think more energy should be spent on looking at the root cause, not the method.

Prisons have become profitable, why not mental health facilities which actually help people and make a positive change?

 

[Maidenpool?]

He was an adult. Should we legislate that your parents are allowed access to your bank account information?

He is/was a student. I'll bet the house those guns were bought with saved up allowance money from his father, on a credit card his father set up for him when he was a teenager.
So in this case - yes - they have every right to access his bank account information... in fact, his father was probably mailed a statement every month.
If we want to play the could have/should have game here, my contribution is that if your kid is making videos about how he despises the female race and his male peers, check his freaking bank statements.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Prisons have become profitable, why not mental health facilities which actually help people and make a positive change?

Ronald Wilson Reagan.

He is/was a student. I'll bet the house those guns were bought with saved up allowance money from his father, on a credit card his father set up for him when he was a teenager.
So in this case - yes - they have every right to access his bank account information... in fact, his father was probably mailed a statement every month.
If we want to play the could have/should have game here, my contribution is that if your kid is making videos about how he despises the female race and his male peers, check his freaking bank statements.

You have a strange sense of how involved parents are in their adult child's life. Do your parents know you post here?

 

[entremet]

Ronald Wilson Reagan.

Yep. It's been kept under wraps, but his legacy with the mental hospital system is disastrous.

 

[Maidenpool?]

Were the CCs under their name, though?

He's over 18, so he could've had his own CC.

I believe he was over 18, however the purchases still would have shown up on his card.

 

[The Henery]

The discussion at this point is still a desperate attempt by a select few to "understand"/sympathize and almost justify the killer's misogyny in a way that isn't at all normal.

Care to link a few of the posts that attempt to justify this killers misogyny? I've read a fair amount of this thread and don't recall seeing that. I'm being lazy, I know.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone else feel that there should be sub-strata of misogynistic definitions? I've always felt it's an inadequate and rather broad term which coalesces discussion to a sometimes bland blanket.

I remember reading a biography of homosexual author William Burroughs which described a short story he had written in which 'boys' were segregated from females on a separate island. On this island they were free to mature without the influence of the female, which Burroughs regarded as "an evolutionary error" and "no longer required for reproduction". That, to me, amongst numerous other Burroughs quotes on women, is misogyny in its purest sense, devoid of frustrated sexual desires. It's very different from Rodgers' apparent intense desire for the female which mutates into seething, murderous resentment when it is not fulfilled. There really ought to be a distinction between the two.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

At twenty two my mom was not checking my credit card statements. Let's not do this.

i got my first cc at 18 and they have never checked my statements. Unless the card is in their name or whatever, I didn't actually know this was a thing.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

I believe he was over 18, however the purchases still would have shown up on his card.

They should have had one of them follow him everywhere he went and had the other go through his things when he wasn't home.

 

[Out of Working Order]

As somebody who's going through what this guy did, I can honestly say I've felt a lot of the things he has. Alienation, loneliness, feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy, and yes - jealousy and anger. I don't hold any of the ridiculous and downright scary thoughts that he had though, but I can only imagine they were another way for him to lash out at those he hated. Fantasies where he could deny sex, pleasure and affection to those that he saw as denying him sex and affection.

In regards to my anger in particular - I unfortunately landed on the same sorts of websites he did. I had put into google searches, things like: 'never had a girlfriend', 'women ignore me', etc., and I ended up on 'incel' boards where bitter men talked about 'alpha' men having their choice of women, and 'beta' and 'omega' men being 'genetic garbage' that women deliberately ignore. That they were destined to live out their lives starved of love and sex, whilst cocky alphas get it all. That if they weren't being ignored, they were the laughing stock of society. One that stuck in my head was that there'd be an uprising - a war, so to speak - when these men can no longer take being 'callously' ignored by women.

I identified with their feelings of rejection, and the more I read, I began to see similarities in my experiences and those of other incels. I'd been laughed at through school and called a geek by girls, never had any friends - male or female - been told to 'fucking move' by a woman I simply happened to stand in front of at a supermarket, been laughed at and pointed at by a muscular guy walking into the store with his attractive girlfriend, who told me a mobility scooter 'suited me' when I got in to take it back into the store (part of my job). I started to feel angry. But at some point I could see that it was such a negative place; a place that could severely warp my worldview. So I rejected what they had to say about women - and the thing I'd place the most emphasis on here - 'as a whole'. Not every woman thinks like that, and not every woman hates my guts.

So, I can see easily see how somebody like Rogers fell into that dark hole and just continued into it deeper and deeper. Until he saw every man as that guy that laughed at me, for example, or every woman as that woman that sneered at me to 'fucking move'. He saw himself as a lost cause, probably hated himself and the way he felt, and wanted to make everyone pay. He chose to react with violence. Regrettable and sad for the victims, of course.

As for myself, well, I just don't care anymore.

 

[besada]

Prisons have become profitable, why not mental health facilities which actually help people and make a positive change?

Because "solving" mental health makes criminalizing all guns look like a cake-walk. Constitutionally, you can't keep guns away from mentally ill people, unless they've been hospitalized or jailed due to their mental illness. So, the vast majority of mentally ill people have no problem getting weapons, because the vast majority of mentally ill people have never been hospitalized or jailed due to their mental illness.

Secondly, you can't force a mentally ill person into a hospital setting unless it's clear they're a danger to themselves or others. Evidence of this usually requires some sort of action -- a suicide attempt, a threat, etc. It's remarkably difficult to commit an unwilling patient and to keep them hospitalized for any length of time -- which is good, because the vast majority of mentally ill people aren't breaking any laws, and therefore shouldn't be tossed into snake pits and forgotten about.

Most mentally ill people are hiding their mental illness -- from their families, from their bosses, from their spouses, even -- because the stigma is so profound that they'd rather sink into the abyss than admit that their brain doesn't work correctly. Until you remove the stigma and guarantee universal mental health treatment, no one is going to "fix" our mental illness problem.

And, given that no one wants to pay to deal with other people's mental illness until one of us starts shooting people, it seems unlikely that we as a civilization are suddenly going to start doing the things we've known we should do for decades. In fact, it's mostly been trending the other way. It's a lot more common for municipalities to empty out their hospitals than it is for them to build new ones.

I'm all for tackling mental health issues in this country, but whenever I see them brought up in this context, I feel the need to say that the vast majority of mentally ill people (both diagnosed and undiagnosed) are non-violent, non-criminal citizens, and they hope you keep that in mind before you start making it easier to hide us away in hospitals.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

As somebody who's going through what this guy did, I can honestly say I've felt a lot of the things he has. Alienation, loneliness, feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy, and yes - jealousy and anger.

Nearly every single human being feels these things, though. Be careful you're not just latching onto the most immediately relatable things you can see. He's not a horoscope.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Because "solving" mental health makes criminalizing all guns look like a cake-walk. Constitutionally, you can't keep guns away from mentally ill people, unless they've been hospitalized or jailed due to their mental illness. So, the vast majority of mentally ill people have no problem getting weapons, because the vast majority of mentally ill people have never been hospitalized or jailed due to their mental illness.

Secondly, you can't force a mentally ill person into a hospital setting unless it's clear they're a danger to themselves or others. Evidence of this usually requires some sort of action -- a suicide attempt, a threat, etc. It's remarkably difficult to commit an unwilling patient and to keep them hospitalized for any length of time -- which is good, because the vast majority of mentally ill people aren't breaking any laws, and therefore shouldn't be tossed into snake pits and forgotten about.

Most mentally ill people are hiding their mental illness -- from their families, from their bosses, from their spouses, even -- because the stigma is so profound that they'd rather sink into the abyss than admit that their brain doesn't work correctly. Until you remove the stigma and guarantee universal mental health treatment, no one is going to "fix" our mental illness problem.

And, given that no one wants to pay to deal with other people's mental illness until one of us starts shooting people, it seems unlikely that we as a civilization are suddenly going to start doing the things we've known we should do for decades. In fact, it's mostly been trending the other way. It's a lot more common for municipalities to empty out their hospitals than it is for them to build new ones.

I'm all for tackling mental health issues in this country, but whenever I see them brought up in this context, I feel the need to say that the vast majority of mentally ill people (both diagnosed and undiagnosed) are non-violent, non-criminal citizens, and they hope you keep that in mind before you start making it easier to hide us away in hospitals.

So what's the first step? Honest question. We can all agree that we need better mental illness treatment, and all the things you said are true, but there has to be baby steps we can take.

 

[Out of Working Order]

Nearly every single human being feels these things, though. Be careful you're not just latching onto the most immediately relatable things you can see. He's not a horoscope.

It's the experiences that lead me to these feelings that I identify with as well, though.

 

[Maidenpool?]

Ronald Wilson Reagan.

You have a strange sense of how involved parents are in their adult child's life. Do your parents know you post here?

If it's their money (which it surely was) that he is spending, they have every right to know what his major purchases are. Heck, even the family accountant would have seen it come tax season ...

 

[Halcyon]

So what's the first step? Honest question. We can all agree that we need better mental illness treatment, and all the things you said are true, but there has to be baby steps we can take.

I always liked the idea that instead of always throwing our "awareness" efforts into Pink Ribbon breast cancer, maybe put some more into mental illness. Get it in the forefront. I think that is a green ribbon or something. Get the NFL on that.


Also apparently May is mental health awareness month. I did not know that.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

If it's their money (which it surely was) that he is spending, they have every right to know what his major purchases are. Heck, even the family accountant would have seen it come tax season ...

This is an interesting way to blame the parents who put him in therapy and even called the fucking cops on their own son right before this happened.

 

[EndlessSky]

So, I haven't kept up with the thread, but I go to UCSB and knew a couple of the victims. There is going to be a memorial service today for all the victims, but I heard that the Westboro Baptist Church tweeted that they are planning to protest there. If they do come, I really hope students here do not get in trouble from getting incited by them. Many people are already mad that there are still many news vans asking everyone questions everyday when the story has already been completely revealed. Really hope these scumbags don't come.

 

[Opto]

What about the 3 who were stabbed? I guess knife control needs to be looked at as well.

No trying to sound insensitive here, but I think people are super quick to look at gun control which, in the US, is going to be next to impossible to implement at this point given the number of firearms in circulation. I think more energy should be spent on looking at the root cause, not the method.

Prisons have become profitable, why not mental health facilities which actually help people and make a positive change?

How about the root cause being that guns were incredibly available and you don't need to prove that you need one, unlike every other first-world country.

For-profit prisons are evil scams and building mental health facilities and populating them in the same way would be terrible on nearly every ethical level.

 

[entremet]

So, I haven't kept up with the thread, but I go to UCSB and knew a couple of the victims. There is going to be a memorial service today for all the victims, but I heard that the Westboro Baptist Church tweeted that they are planning to protest there. If they do come, I really hope students here do not get in trouble from getting incited by them. Many people are already mad that there are still many news vans asking everyone questions everyday when the story has already been completely revealed. Really hope these scumbags don't come.

Those jerks are still around?

 

[Karkador]

Prisons have become profitable, why not mental health facilities which actually help people and make a positive change?

Profitable prisons are making a positive change?

 

[Cyan]

Profitable prisons are making a positive change?

They're helping raise awareness of how terrible the US prison system is.

 

[Opto]

Profitable prisons are making a positive change?

think of all the money the mental hospital owners can get out of that forced labor!

 

[Opto]

"Feeling depressed? Why you're a potential killer! Five years hard labor outta fix that."

 

[Random Painted HIghway]

Prisons have become profitable, why not mental health facilities which actually help people and make a positive change?

Tax dollars to for profit mental health facilities leads to massive massive fraud and care that doesn't suit the patient. Google cmhc fraud for some examples.

 

[Deified Data]

No trying to sound insensitive here, but I think people are super quick to look at gun control which, in the US, is going to be next to impossible to implement at this point given the number of firearms in circulation. I think more energy should be spent on looking at the root cause, not the method.

We can do both.

Clearly easy access to guns isn't the "root" of this tragedy, but it is the dividing line between Elliot Rodger the murderer and Elliot Rodger the angry internet ranter. Did he kill people with tools other than guns? Of course. But knives and cars serve a purpose outside of killing.

No one's suggesting a "beat down everyone's door and take their guns"-style pogrom. Rather, we're suggesting that it become a bit more difficult for an emotionally troubled young man with a history of mental illness to buy guns with impunity. Imagine what could have happened if he were properly screened, or even if he had to endure a waiting period.

 

[luxarific]

Correct, but who the male animal chooses is ultimately a bit irrelevant because the female makes the last choice.

That's not a universal.

It has been noted that behavior resembling rape in humans is observed in the animal kingdom, including ducks and geese, bottlenose dolphins,[1] and chimpanzees.[2] Indeed in orangutans, close human relatives, copulations of this nature may account for up to half of all observed matings.[3] Such behaviours, referred to as ‘forced copulations’, involve an animal being approached and sexually penetrated whilst it struggles or attempts to escape. These observations of forced sex among animals are not controversial. What is controversial is the interpretation of these observations and the extension of theories based on them to humans. “Thornhill introduces this theory by describing the sexual behavior of scorpion flies. In which the male may gain sex from the female either by presenting a gift of food during courtship or without a nuptial offering, in which case force is necessary to restrain her.” [4]

 

[WordAssassin]

So, I haven't kept up with the thread, but I go to UCSB and knew a couple of the victims. There is going to be a memorial service today for all the victims, but I heard that the Westboro Baptist Church tweeted that they are planning to protest there. If they do come, I really hope students here do not get in trouble from getting incited by them. Many people are already mad that there are still many news vans asking everyone questions everyday when the story has already been completely revealed. Really hope these scumbags don't come.

Glad I'm not going up to SB until tomorrow or I would push every last one of them off the Del Playa ledge into the ocean, stupid fucks