mattpowers
Neo Member
Just got back from the store and I really liked how the w600 looked. I'm just worried about it being 60hz as everyone I speak to says go no lower than 120hz for gaming.
Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen
- Thread starter spannicus
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Just got back from the store and I really liked how the w600 looked. I'm just worried about it being 60hz as everyone I speak to says go no lower than 120hz for gaming.
mattpowers
Neo Member
Can anyone confirm that the PS4 hdmi cable that comes with the system only outputs 60hz?
I'm considering returning a tv and at the store today the guy told me to first try a better cable, one that is gold plated, instead of the hdmi cord that comes with the system.
Is this true?
I'm considering returning a tv and at the store today the guy told me to first try a better cable, one that is gold plated, instead of the hdmi cord that comes with the system.
Is this true?
Splash Wave
Member
I'm really hoping I don't notice, whatever the difference is. That this TV is generally recommended for gaming leads me to believe that it probably won't be a problem. And I'm coming from a piece-of-shit Samsung monitor, so I doubt I'll have much of an issue.
Fingers crossed.
You don't want to use 120hz options in gaming. Usually called clear motion or something like that
I'm sure he is bs'ing you. I think we can all attest that you don't want to buy the $50+ XTREME Monster Cables.
I think all consoles output 60hz, regardless of HDMI cable. Though there are various specs of HDMI, I think the original was rated at 1080p / 60 Hz
lostinblue
Banned
Cables make no difference, dude is just trying to sell you an expensive cable.
Load of BS if I've ever seen one.
As for standards, all HD standards are 60 Hz, that's the issue probably, 50 Hz is doable if the console and the TV supports it but it's kind of a bastard thing, nothing obliges them to support it in order to adhere to any standard - whereas they need to support 60 Hz in order to comply to any HD standard.
Of course 120 Hz is better but every tv out there is 60 Hz in regards to input and if you don't want any motion enhancements going on (as is often the case for gaming, low input lag=tv doing nothing to the image) you're gonna have the TV just repeating a frame twice at 120 Hz. For still images there's no difference, for motion sans intermediate results there might be - but it's due to the panel response capability.
The real benefit of 120 Hz being that a frame internally takes 8.3 ms before being flushed (I'll call it half frame in a while) rather than 16.7 ms (16.7 being the time a frame takes up @ 60 hz) and with things like motion compensation going on it means you can kickstart some of the time it changes to fixate the color or a transition by a whole "half frame" by initiating a transition ahead of time (this kickstart means intermediate results and more input lag though so in actuality it's not ahead of time but slighly behind). Anyway you get the gist of it.
Way more important than that is ghosting time, the lower the better, and nothing stops a 60 Hz panel from having the same 10 ms ghosting time as a good 120 hz panel, and the limitations in regards to going lower apply to both - with just 60 Hz you just can't possibly attempt to start said transition "ahead of time" (and game modes don't attempt this). I don't know which specs the W605B has in this area but it can't be that bad.
Understand, the thing about 120 Hz and 240 Hz panels is that for said figures they have to have less ghosting time than a bad 60 Hz panel or it would be useless (they also cost more to boot so they're supposedly upmarket as well). That's not saying much because a 60 Hz panel could be pretty close @ 60 Hz because ghosting time and Hz are different figures - an internal frame @ 240 hz takes 4.2 ms and no LCD can fixate big color changes in that time (simple gradations, sure). Hell, Plasmas had 6 ms ghosting time. OLED can do it, but it's still in the rock ages in lots of other fields.
Well worth it and by far the set with best picture quality you're considering so far.
Specially because it looks and feels like an OLED due to being self emitting and bright as fuck.
Load of BS if I've ever seen one.
As for standards, all HD standards are 60 Hz, that's the issue probably, 50 Hz is doable if the console and the TV supports it but it's kind of a bastard thing, nothing obliges them to support it in order to adhere to any standard - whereas they need to support 60 Hz in order to comply to any HD standard.
That's a pretty narrow way to look at it.
Of course 120 Hz is better but every tv out there is 60 Hz in regards to input and if you don't want any motion enhancements going on (as is often the case for gaming, low input lag=tv doing nothing to the image) you're gonna have the TV just repeating a frame twice at 120 Hz. For still images there's no difference, for motion sans intermediate results there might be - but it's due to the panel response capability.
The real benefit of 120 Hz being that a frame internally takes 8.3 ms before being flushed (I'll call it half frame in a while) rather than 16.7 ms (16.7 being the time a frame takes up @ 60 hz) and with things like motion compensation going on it means you can kickstart some of the time it changes to fixate the color or a transition by a whole "half frame" by initiating a transition ahead of time (this kickstart means intermediate results and more input lag though so in actuality it's not ahead of time but slighly behind). Anyway you get the gist of it.
Way more important than that is ghosting time, the lower the better, and nothing stops a 60 Hz panel from having the same 10 ms ghosting time as a good 120 hz panel, and the limitations in regards to going lower apply to both - with just 60 Hz you just can't possibly attempt to start said transition "ahead of time" (and game modes don't attempt this). I don't know which specs the W605B has in this area but it can't be that bad.
Understand, the thing about 120 Hz and 240 Hz panels is that for said figures they have to have less ghosting time than a bad 60 Hz panel or it would be useless (they also cost more to boot so they're supposedly upmarket as well). That's not saying much because a 60 Hz panel could be pretty close @ 60 Hz because ghosting time and Hz are different figures - an internal frame @ 240 hz takes 4.2 ms and no LCD can fixate big color changes in that time (simple gradations, sure). Hell, Plasmas had 6 ms ghosting time. OLED can do it, but it's still in the rock ages in lots of other fields.
Well, image quality wise I can tell you that TV is the shit.
Well worth it and by far the set with best picture quality you're considering so far.
Specially because it looks and feels like an OLED due to being self emitting and bright as fuck.
Elginer
Member
Just bought Sony's new 48inch W600b and this thing is beautiful. Am upgrading from a 2005 40 inch 720p Samsung, which is still going strong but wanted something new to make my PS4 sing.
Excellent blacks on this set. Am very happy with it and some of the best damn input response around.
Excellent blacks on this set. Am very happy with it and some of the best damn input response around.
Does anyone happen to know if this is a halfway decent TV in general? It's on sale and I'm looking for a TV on a budget.
LINK TO TV
LINK TO TV
Nevermind, I'll be buying a 55" TV, so the W850B and W850A are out. Thanks though.
Otakumegane
Member
Woot after playing a bit of Mario Kart now I can take care of all this red on the panel and the black crush. Calibration time.
mattpowers
Neo Member
Thanks for the input though I can't say that i understand it all, and I'm not sure I'm anywhere closer to making a decision.
If ghosting time (is this the same as response time?) is more important than Hz, how do I determine that for the units I'm looking at?
Does anyone know what the "ghosting time" is for the Sony w600b, and how it compares to comparable models?
lostinblue
Banned
Yes.
But beware that threre are lots of figures going around, grey to grey being a simply gradation (giving that number alone is cheating IMO) and black to white... black to white is best because it's the transition that takes longer.
Anyway, a 120 Hz monitor should have better response time than a 60 Hz, not because it has 120 Hz but because manufacturers should be more sensible towards not cost cutting "there". That doesn't change the fact that if you had a plasma, CRT or OLED @ 60 Hz ghosting time would still be better even against the best LCD there is.
This (120 and 240 Hz) is not something akin to "overclocking" and it's bound by the technology own faults, what I'm trying to say is because a panel is doing a higher refresh rate pixel response time stays the same.
As for how something whose panel transitions lag look like... It's pretty much this:
-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzW8SkjgXWk
It's the double image phenomena, most notable if the scene has lots of contrast, like black (dark) and white (light). Lots of sepia FPS's on PS3/X360 seem to be perfect for it, because they're 60 fps and use a very contrast'y palette.
That I don't, sorry.
But I doubt there are many TV's in the same (60 Hz) segment that match it out outdo it in that department.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
I can't get Nvidia 3DTV Play to work on my TV, I enable it 3D Vision (14 day trial) and the TV picks up a 3D flag but when I try to enable stereoscopic 3D it switches to the hardware test page then fails with this error: Failed to create D3D Device1.
Tried it at 720p/50/60 also 1080p/23/24.
TriDef works in SBS but there's some awful crosstalk.
46W905a
Tried it at 720p/50/60 also 1080p/23/24.
TriDef works in SBS but there's some awful crosstalk.
46W905a
120Hz is of PC gamers and higher spec monitors. I don't think any TVs support 120Hz natively, they do 120Hz by inserting fake frames between the real ones.
The W6 range are good TVs. Excellent black levels (better than the W8s from 2013) and low input lag. The only negative is they don't have motionflow, so motion resolution is around 300. On the higher end sets you can use clear motionflow to improve motion resolution at the cost of slightly higher input lag.
I have a 50w685 and like it a lot
Ah thats a shame. I thought my first HDMI receiver was primitive. If only HDMI had a mandated specification that people have to follow, instead manufacturers pick and choose bits and pieces from the spec.
CheDominik
Member
OK I bought a Samsung UE60F6370 yesterday because I wanted to save a couple of hundreds. I like the picture but the input lag is horrible, so I'll return it.
Any recommendations for a TV from 55 to 60 inches? Low input lag is my #1 priority.
Money isn't really an issue, but I don't want a 4K TV.
Any recommendations for a TV from 55 to 60 inches? Low input lag is my #1 priority.
Money isn't really an issue, but I don't want a 4K TV.
mattpowers
Neo Member
Thank you to those have been helping in my quest for a new gaming tv. I greatly appreciate the input.
Yesterday I returned a panasonic tc-39as530u and picked-up a Sony w600b, 40". The Sony is a definite upgrade over the Panasonic, at least for my purposes, which is primarily gaming. Specifically, the distortion/noise that I was seeing with the Panasonic is gone.
On the negative, there certainly is some motion blur. It could just be that I'm particularly sensitive to it at the moment, seeing as I'm paying such close attention and hyper-focusing on the details of the tv's performance.
What I'm unsure about is whether the blur that I'm seeing is anything more than ought to be expected from any tv, especially at this price point. Some minor blur/ghosting is always going to happen with these types of tvs, no?
Minor blur aside - and it is very minor - I'm very pleased with picture of the w600b. The guy at Best Buy suggested that I also consider a Samsung that they have on clearance sale. I'm not sure but I think it was the H6350, but it's a native 120hz.
Yesterday I returned a panasonic tc-39as530u and picked-up a Sony w600b, 40". The Sony is a definite upgrade over the Panasonic, at least for my purposes, which is primarily gaming. Specifically, the distortion/noise that I was seeing with the Panasonic is gone.
On the negative, there certainly is some motion blur. It could just be that I'm particularly sensitive to it at the moment, seeing as I'm paying such close attention and hyper-focusing on the details of the tv's performance.
What I'm unsure about is whether the blur that I'm seeing is anything more than ought to be expected from any tv, especially at this price point. Some minor blur/ghosting is always going to happen with these types of tvs, no?
Minor blur aside - and it is very minor - I'm very pleased with picture of the w600b. The guy at Best Buy suggested that I also consider a Samsung that they have on clearance sale. I'm not sure but I think it was the H6350, but it's a native 120hz.
after really bad experience with Samsung H6400 (40'') I got a 42'' Bravia 670A and it's the best TV for gaming I ever bought. now I also got W705B and it is fantastic as well.
I think for gaming/lag the Bravia W6/W7 series are really unmatched. (It will be a sad day if Sony kill their TV arm)
Otakumegane
Member
Hmm, I think I got the contrast and brightness levels down but my panel still shows a crap ton of red. (Some of the light blues look purple)
Does AVS HD 709 do color too? Thinking of maybe using that.
Does AVS HD 709 do color too? Thinking of maybe using that.
Alright, I'm in the final stretch of my TV buying odyssey. I need help deciding between these two models. Here's what I'm thinking ...
Sony KDL-55W905A (2013)
+ allegedly one of Sony's best 1080p TVs to date (in the ~1500€ price range anyway)
+ great blacks
+ Triluminos display
+ low input lag
- I really dislike the circular stand
- I really dislike the Sony logo mini brick at the bottom of the TV
- it costs 250-300€ more than the Sony KDL-55W829
Sony KDL-55W829 (2014)
+ allegedly has a better panel than the 2014 KDL-W955 flagship 1080p model
+ very good blacks (?)
+ low input lag
+ I like the minimalistic stand much better than the W905A one
+ it costs 250-300€ less than the Sony KLD-55W905A
- I'm not sure how EXACTLY it compares to the W905A, IQ-wise
Before you say "go with the W905A" please consider that I'll be probably looking to upgrade the TV to 4K/OLED (fingers crossed) in 3-4 years and that the 250-300€ I'd save by buying the W829 would go into buying speakers/amp for my new HT setup. I've no doubt the W905A is the better TV, but is it that much better?
Thanks!
Sony KDL-55W905A (2013)
+ allegedly one of Sony's best 1080p TVs to date (in the ~1500€ price range anyway)
+ great blacks
+ Triluminos display
+ low input lag
- I really dislike the circular stand
- I really dislike the Sony logo mini brick at the bottom of the TV
- it costs 250-300€ more than the Sony KDL-55W829
Sony KDL-55W829 (2014)
+ allegedly has a better panel than the 2014 KDL-W955 flagship 1080p model
+ very good blacks (?)
+ low input lag
+ I like the minimalistic stand much better than the W905A one
+ it costs 250-300€ less than the Sony KLD-55W905A
- I'm not sure how EXACTLY it compares to the W905A, IQ-wise
Before you say "go with the W905A" please consider that I'll be probably looking to upgrade the TV to 4K/OLED (fingers crossed) in 3-4 years and that the 250-300€ I'd save by buying the W829 would go into buying speakers/amp for my new HT setup. I've no doubt the W905A is the better TV, but is it that much better?
Thanks!
Otakumegane
Member
Oh dang my red and blue levels are shot.
What do I use to correct those, White balance?
What do I use to correct those, White balance?
mitchman
Gold Member
You can reduce the input lag significantly by using the game mode and/or renaming the input to "PC". Check the manual. 39ms is the input lag on the PC input, which is great for a TV. Check http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/ and the model UN60F6300 which should be the US version of that TV.
mattpowers
Neo Member
Unmatched in terms of what? Input lag? Response time and motion blur?
The w600b seems like a very solid gaming hdtv for the price, though I hate to think that there might a comparable model out there with less motion blur. It's pretty minor with the w600b, and it hasn't detracted from the gaming experience so far, but it's there. (In fact, the most evident was when the credits were rolling after I beat Infamous on the PS4 - the black letters on white background were noticeably jittery.)
A UK retailer held a TV shootout today with the Panasonic ZT plasma going up against an LG OLED set and a host of 2nd gen edge-lit 4K displays. Results pretty much echo the VE shootout from last year.
Panasonic AX802 is Best 4K TV; ZT Plasma Pips LG OLED
Panasonic AX802 is Best 4K TV; ZT Plasma Pips LG OLED
CheDominik
Member
Hey mitch, didn't see you online for a while.
Already did the PC thing(and game mode obviously) but still, in comparison to my old Sony KDL-46W4000 which has an input lag of <10ms the difference is pretty significant.
mitchman
Gold Member
Been playing Watch Dogs, but I'm back in BF4 now. Usually play with the US GAF squad, though, as my sleeping pattern is.. interestin.
I would love to have as little as 39ms on my 65" F9000, but it's at 60ms. 39ms is insignificant unless you have twich reflexes like a pro gamer. You don't
But if this is super important, go with a Sony I guess.Kind of a worthless comparison considering the Sony X950B was not part of it.
Will it be used for mostly gaming? If yes, then I'd go with the 5W829 personally.
I have a 50W685 which is pretty much a 50" version of the 829 but without the extra motion clarity modes (it just has Impulse) and passive 3D. The improvements of the 905 will really only manifest themselves with film/video content and native blacks on the 829 are as good as it gets with current LCD/LED's with the 905 only really looking better with zero ambient light.
Seems you value physical appearance highly too which is one of the reasons I went with a 2013 W6 over the W905 as well. Have you seen the W905 in person? I personally hated the turquoise finish on the frame and rounded stand in comparison to the minimalistic, squared W6 when viewed side by side.
And as you also already have one eye on a future upgrade, I'd most definitely put the extra cash towards other bits in your new HT set-up personally.
michaelius
Banned
AX 802 also has lowest input lag measured so far for 4K TVs and it has display port connection
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/tx-50ax802b-201405193778.htm
drugstore_cowboy
Member
I wish I'd gone for a 4K set, the W9 is a nice TV but I sit close and the gaps between the pixels are visible.
geordiemp
Member
I came down to the same 2 as well. Both are great, what swayed it for me is I only sit 8 ft away, so I went with the 46w905 as 55 inch was a bit too much for my living room. It was between the 50w829B and 46w905 for me...
905A has slightly better colours and blacks. I wall hung mine so did not care for stands - the w829 wall hang sits a bit further from the wall / not so flush was one of my deciders believe it or not.
PS the 8 ms is absolutely great for gaming, your getting around 20-30 ms benefit alone (remember the big GAF threads about 60 fps (16ms) and 30 FPS (33 ms) - so much focus on 16 ms and yet many loose that amount with TV selection - ironic)
geordiemp
Member
Yeah, think some go too big - sometimes at 1080p you better off with 46-50 inches than the 55-60 inch option..
OLED, but in terms of the average person...
Plasma is great, but the plasma I have has terrible burn in, and I imagine that's something that happens with all of them? I haven't really looked into it, though.
I got a LED TV as a gift a while ago, though, and that thing just looks great and I don't notice any kind of delay and such. I think it all comes to a matter of personal preference.
Plasma is great, but the plasma I have has terrible burn in, and I imagine that's something that happens with all of them? I haven't really looked into it, though.
I got a LED TV as a gift a while ago, though, and that thing just looks great and I don't notice any kind of delay and such. I think it all comes to a matter of personal preference.
You cannot adjust either white balance or colors by eye. Need to have some kind of meter (colorimeter or spectrophotometer) along with test patterns (HD709 will work fine here) and software for taking readings from the meter (Chromapure, Calman or at the very least HCFR).
I really, really like the look of the AX 802. Especially the pixel duplicating option instead of scaling for 1080p content. Over 2 grand for the 50 incher in the UK though...
Eager to see the pricing of Sony's 8xx series 4k models without the side speakers over here. The 55" can be had for under $1700 in the US which, even with the typical $1=£1 rip-off pricing they usually do, could be tempting early next year when prices start to drop before next years models.
This is very true. You should never use someone else's calibrated settings either as all panels are different and you can just as easily makes things worse as you can better. This goes for using D-Nice or whatever they're called settings for your Panasonic Plasma's too.
That said, I've calibrated enough sets with a colourimetre now to be able to eyeball a grayscale reasonably well I think. Or at least to the point where I'm satisfied with it myself if reviews also confirm the set is pretty accurate out of the box anyway. Also, all edge lit LED's panels are that uneven in brightness and colour temp that you can dial in a calibration to perfection on one part of the screen that will be 20% out on another area of it. My Sony W6 is clearly much warmer on the left of the screen than the right so I haven't even bothered using a metre on it. A couple of clicks down on the green gain brings it into line nicely enough for me.
Hey all, I'm currently looking into getting a new TV for my bedroom to replace an old 19" Sony Bravia LCD I've had for almost 7 years, and some advice would be grand if anyone has any.
I'm quite liking the look of this one - http://www.johnlewis.com/sony-bravi...t-tv-24-with-freeview-hd/p721266?colour=White - although it's probably in the upper echelons of my price range. Will be using it for my PS4.
Any thoughts/suggestions?
I'm quite liking the look of this one - http://www.johnlewis.com/sony-bravi...t-tv-24-with-freeview-hd/p721266?colour=White - although it's probably in the upper echelons of my price range. Will be using it for my PS4.
Any thoughts/suggestions?
i recently got a W600B series TV, it's pretty pretty good imo, it's the sound quality that is the problem though, I just used PC speakers lol
The motion resolution (and therefore the blur you see) is 300 lines on the w6, which is basically the same as all LCDs if you have motion compensation turned off. If you have things like motionflow enabled you can increase that, but you're inserting frames and increasing input lag.
Assuming you're running in game mode which will disable motion compensation, then all LCDs will have the same 300 lines of motion resolution
Yeah I tend to use headphones so sound shouldn't be a problem, all about the image quality really!
While I don't doubt that if you do enough tv's you can get a feel for it visually, for the average person there is no way they can do it by eye and expect to get anything close to Rec. 709. And even if you think you have it accurately set by eye, have you ever followed it up with measurements to see how close you got?
Just for fun, try this colour IQ test and see how you do. (And I mean that for anyone, not specifically singling you out.)
Colour IQ Test
I got 30 on my crappy BenQ monitor
Thanks for stopping by and spreading the knowledge, greatly appreciate it!
I think after reading that UK shootout, I'm pretty much set with the PN8500 since it's comparable to the ZT60 that was highly regarded in the shootout. Just a matter of finding a good deal now
HI. BILLY MAYS HERE
Banned
in-case anyone is interested LG's 55" OLED is now $5,000
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E5U3YEK/?tag=neogaf0e-20
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E5U3YEK/?tag=neogaf0e-20