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[Whitechocolatekrispies]

What's the difference between using gay as an insult and idiot, moron, or wanker? One of them is a synonym for homosexuals, with the implicit value of the insult being that being homosexual is bad, stupid, undesirable. You don't insult someone by calling them or equating them with good or neutral things, you call them a faggot or retard to imply they're not normal or as good as their peers.

I mean, how can you hear a slur used as a put down and not think the exact thing you said you don't, that they're equating them with homosexuals and homosexuals are bad or undesirable? It's like hearing someone use nigger as a put down and not thinking it's really a racist term. It boggles the mind. The same reason you wouldn't use one means you shouldn't use the other.

You speak from a well educated position.

What you're not realising is that kids are stupid and ignorant. They hear words used as insults and they repeat them in the playground. They don't know what it means, they're doing what kids do ... regurgitate.

If you're trying to honestly tell me as kids we all took the time to think 'this insult is derogatory to homosexual people and really has a negative impact on society and equality' you're living a dream. Kids hear some asshole say it, they see the context, then they repeat elsewhere. Rinse and repeat.

 

[ymmv]

Faggot has ALWAYS been an insult geared towards homosexuals since forever. And at no point was it EVER okay to use, doubly so toward homosexuals. And please for the love of god don't say "well they call each other fags all the time" or anything like that PLS!

Such an ignorant view.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=faggot

faggot (n.1)
late 13c., "bundle of twigs bound up," from Old French fagot "bundle of sticks" (13c.), of uncertain origin, probably from Italian faggotto, diminutive of Vulgar Latin *facus, from Latin fascis "bundle of wood" (see fasces).

Especially used for burning heretics (emblematic of this from 1550s), so that phrase fire and faggot was used to indicate "punishment of a heretic." Heretics who recanted were required to wear an embroidered figure of a faggot on their sleeve, as an emblem and reminder of what they deserved.

faggot (n.2)
"male homosexual," 1914, American English slang (shortened form fag is from 1921), probably from earlier contemptuous term for "woman" (1590s), especially an old and unpleasant one, in reference to faggot (n.1) "bundle of sticks," as something awkward that has to be carried (compare baggage "worthless woman," 1590s). It may also be reinforced by Yiddish faygele "homosexual," literally "little bird." It also may have roots in British public school slang fag "a junior who does certain duties for a senior" (1785), with suggestions of "catamite," from fag (v.). This also was used as a verb.

He [the prefect] used to fag me to blow the chapel organ for him. ["Boy's Own Paper," 1889]

Other obsolete senses of faggot were "man hired into military service simply to fill out the ranks at muster" (1700) and "vote manufactured for party purposes" (1817).

The oft-reprinted assertion that male homosexuals were called faggots because they were burned at the stake as punishment is an etymological urban legend. Burning was sometimes a punishment meted out to homosexuals in Christian Europe (on the suggestion of the Biblical fate of Sodom and Gomorrah), but in England, where parliament had made homosexuality a capital offense in 1533, hanging was the method prescribed. Any use of faggot in connection with public executions had long become an English historical obscurity by the time the word began to be used for "male homosexual" in 20th century American slang, whereas the contemptuous slang word for "woman" (and the other possible sources or influences listed here) was in active use. It was used in this sense in early 20c. by D.H. Lawrence and James Joyce, among others.

Current American usage of the word faggot for a homosexual is 100 years old.

American usage is 100 years old.

 

[SlowRevolution]

I believe it actually means a stick or a bundle of sticks.


It's just a word. If you went over and said "hey cupcake" with ill intended malice it could be just as bad. Words are overrated. The intent behind the words is what people should focus on. It's like the trolls behind the Colbert "scandal". Trolls decide they don't want to understand the point he was making and just decides to play dumb on the word play. It's obviously bullshit, but that's power of political correctness if you want to linger in these semantic details.

The censorship of words is not what is gonna reduce homophobia for the ignorant. There are other ways that actually works.

No, it couldn't.

There's history behind the word, whether or not you want there to be. If you want to reclaim the word or whatever and have it mean "asshole" then just say asshole, because then you're not making a ton of people feel shitty for no good reason. There's not really a good reason to say "faggot" in that way because there are a load of other suitable words.

 

[Hex]

The reactions here are interesting to me.
If it were many other people the reactions would be different.
The apology is ok, but he was caught and exposed and he knows the backlash it can have so had every reason to be nervous.
There are many things to have as your quick-draw lash out reactions, this should never be one of them.

 

[Oersted]

This is called missing the point. Entirely.

I was afraid so. Care to enlighten me?

 

[Sai-kun]

I don't need an apology for that. It doesn't bother me.

wow

that's really fucking fantastic for you

Edit for on-topic: That is how you do a good apology, folks.

 

[stufte]

This is a great post. Words have different meanings to different people over time, class and geographical location. To give the term a blanket meaning is ridiculous.

Just because you think a word means something that it's not, doesn't make it true. Stop using the word now, your older self will thank you in 10 years.

 

[Carl]

Er, the meanings of words change. Just like calling something "lame" doesn't offend everyone in the world who is lame, because it's not targetted at them.

 

[Opiate]

Quite an interesting view on words.

Is using a word with no negative connotations with completely malice intent worse than using a word with negative connotations with positive intent?

But that's a discussion for another time probably, as obviously this case was ill intent.

I think the reasonable conclusion would be it's some of both. You can see how either extreme breaks down:

1) I use the word "nigger" and insist I'm using it completely innocently and everyone who takes offense is to blame if they are offended.

2) I use the word "desk" and someone insists they find that word offensive but cannot cite any historical or social context or provide reasonable explanation for why I should not use that word.

At the extremes, both absolutes break down. As such, a reasonable person would factor in both; we are partially responsible for the intent behind our words, and listeners are partially responsible for coherently interpreting them.

 

[Pankratous]

That is literally this discussion.

I thought the discussion was Jonah's apology and meaning of that word, which I feel has been typed enough for one thread.

Even things I don't find offensive become annoying to read after 50 times.

 

[Miles X]

Some strawman if I've ever seen one. No one is discussing the violence gay kids in our country, or any other, are enduring. You are proposing an entirely different argument

Who is talking about violence? I'm talking about that guy thinking anyone using those words is ok and has no ill effects.

Er, the meanings of words change. Just like calling something "lame" doesn't offend everyone in the world who is lame, because it's not targetted at them.

Except, even if you think so, those meanings have not changed and they're still widely uses as homophobic slurs.

 

[Yado]

You speak from a well educated position.

What you're not realising is that kids are stupid and ignorant. They hear words used as insults and they repeat them in the playground. They don't know what it means, they're doing what kids do ... regurgitate.

If you're trying to honestly tell me as kids we all took the time to think 'this insult is derogatory to homosexual people and really has a negative impact on society and equality' you're living a dream. Kids hear some asshole say it, they see the context, then they repeat elsewhere. Rinse and repeat.

Ok...but you're an adult now and you still don't seem to know any better.

 

[ab.aeterno]

I believe it actually means a stick or a bundle of sticks.

Well ok if you want to believe that go ahead, but you'll probably find it hard to explain if you start saying faggot in conversations here, since the mods obviously do not agree with your definition.

Not for me, it wasn't. I always got called those terms growing up, before and after everyone realized what they meant. More so after...nothing like getting told what a "fag" I was in the gym locker room and told to stay away from everyone because I'd get a stiffy if I saw men changing their clothes. Don't pretend for a SECOND that people don't use that term exactly the way we all know it is. Important to note too that he used the word in that context, too.

Couldn't agree more; people knew what it meant.

 

[Acerac]

21.

And to answer everyone else, the word faggot is not used to specifically target gay people here. We use it for banter, we call anyone it. If it is ever used in a derogatory manner, its always talking about a general asshole.

When I was young and closeted it hurt horribly any time faggot was used in that matter. It's still frustrating.

Not sure if my personal experience means anything, but just for reference.

 

[Opiate]

Er, the meanings of words change. Just like calling something "lame" doesn't offend everyone in the world who is lame, because it's not targetted at them.

They do change, but clearly this one hasn't much. Gay people are still offended by the word "faggot" in a way that lame people are not.

 

[Majmun]

Wtf, I can eat faggot

Learning new stuff every day

 

[Carl]

Personally when i hear "faggot" i think of the food before i think of gay people.

 

[fierrotlepou]

Nice acting there, Jonah.

 

[kirblar]

Ok...but you're an adult now and you still don't seem to know any better.

A lot of adults are still really ignorant on many issues (and I don't mean that in a pejorative way.) We just grow older. We don't necessarily grow wiser or more knowledgeable.

 

[Pankratous]

When I was young and closeted it hurt horribly any time faggot was used in that matter. It's still frustrating.

Not sure if my personal experience means anything, but just for reference.

Everyone's experience means a lot, of course.

 

[gofreak]

He was entirely right to apologise.

The ensuing debate reminds me a bit of this... 'straight people have lined up to tell me what I'm allowed to feel oppressed by...'

 

[see5harp]

The overall difference in reaction between when Jonah said it then apologized and when Kobe said it is amazing.

We're all racist.

To be entirely clear I repeated the Louis C.K. "taking back the word" joke and got banned over it. So there you go. Me: not racist.

 

[DarkKyo]

Are you both eight years old? This makes sense for kids, who learn the slur as "idiot" before learning what it really refers to (see: The Louis CK bit), but at some point the real meaning should make itself obvious...

You don't get to decide what it means and you shouldn't use it at all homie.

Such an ignorant view.

It does to a lot of people so, hence your not using it, so I'm not sure why you think it doesn't.

Wow some people get SUPER defensive about this. No room for dissenting opinions and no room for even polite discussion, even if one party is approaching it as politely as possible. There's no need to be so hostile.

 

[ZackGamer]

Jonah is badass

 

[Whitechocolatekrispies]

Ok...but you're an adult now and you still don't seem to know any better.

Why are you insisting I'm saying it's okay to use.

I haven't said that anywhere. I'm explaining why the word is used so frequently outside of some giant homophobic conspiracy.

 

[Omegasquash]

Jesus H. Christ are people really defending language that's both racially and homosexually degrading today?

Fuck a duck but this is one for the books.

 

[Miles X]

Jesus H. Christ are people really defending language that's both racially and homosexually degrading today?

Fuck a duck but this is one for the books.

You can spot closet racists/homophobes a mile off with their weak ass excuses.

 

[kirblar]

Wow some people get SUPER defensive about this. No room for dissenting opinions and no room for even polite discussion, even if one party is approaching it as politely as possible. There's no need to be so hostile.

I personally wasn't trying to be hostile. I was legitimately surprised that you'd still have that viewpoint if you were posting in OT.

When I was young and closeted it hurt horribly any time faggot was used in that matter. It's still frustrating.

Not sure if my personal experience means anything, but just for reference.

I learned to let the "stupid" definition slide off my back. Hearing the "real" definition in context, though, triggered (and still triggers) a very strong reaction.

 

[Sai-kun]

Wow some people get SUPER defensive about this. No room for dissenting opinions and no room for even polite discussion, even if one party is approaching it as politely as possible. There's no need to be so hostile.

why in the hell should people be polite in not wanting others to use slurs? the word disgusts me, and I immediately think less of people who use it so flippantly, because it hurts. Am I wrong for being defensive about it?

There isn't room for a dissenting opinion because the word still hurts.

 

[radios shipping overview]

When somebody complains about how they aren't allowed to use a word that hurts others, they're really just sad about the fact that they can't be a dick without being called on it.

 

[Carl]

They do change, but clearly this one hasn't much. Gay people are still offended by the word "faggot" in a way that lame people are not.

Well, it has changed a lot but it's used for multiple meanings. There's kind of an overlap. I'm sure when "lame" stopped being used for lame people and started being used for shit stuff, people were still offended by it.

I've never really used the word personally, but i think it's rather archaic and silly to keep the word cemented in its offensive meaning when the word is clearly changing meaning. Faggot no more means gay person than it does mean just "dickhead" or similar.

 

[Derwind]

Jesus H. Christ are people really defending language that's both racially and homosexually degrading today?

Fuck a duck but this is one for the books.

There are apologists for everything. Sadly, its not really a new trend.

 

[Kinsei]

Wow some people get SUPER defensive about this. No room for dissenting opinions and no room for even polite discussion, even if one party is approaching it as politely as possible. There's no need to be so hostile.

Do you feel the same way about other slurs? Saying the word faggot isn't offensive is just like saying nigger isn't offensive.

 

[Dark Octave]

You don't get to decide what it means and you shouldn't use it at all homie.

I think he does get to decide what it means. We all do. Nobody owns that or any word. I hardly ever use the word but when I do, it's always used towards someone of despicable character and never has anything to do with their sexual orientation.

People who want to keep the word for it's most hateful form (it has changed meaning several times before it meant "homosexual") are trying to stop a spinning gun and keep it aimed at themselves and/or the ones they are trying to protect. Let the word evolve like it naturally has before we were born and like it will continue to after we are gone.

 

[legacyzero]

The reactions here are interesting to me.
If it were many other people the reactions would be different.
The apology is ok, but he was caught and exposed and he knows the backlash it can have so had every reason to be nervous.
There are many things to have as your quick-draw lash out reactions, this should never be one of them.

So you're saying that the only reason he's apologizing is because the backlash? That he isnt being genuine?

 

[soundahfekz]

I was afraid so. Care to enlighten me?

The stark differences in GAF's reaction towards Mel Gibsons terrible actions, vs, say Dr Dre or Ray Rice. They all struck women, yet generally Mel Gibson is absolved of condemnation for most.

 

[Pepiope]

Jonah Hill said the word with malicious intent, and we are cool with his apology. Bieber says the N word jokingly, and he's scum for it. There are a bunch of alternative words he could have used if he was pissed off at the guy, yet faggot is the term that most straight men use when they're trying to emasculate another straight male. It's really hard for him to claim that he was a gay rights activist from day one when faggot is the first term he could think of when trying to insult someone.

Either way, Hill was wrong, Bieber was wrong, and it just shows how much further we have to go for equality in the US.

 

[FortuneFaded]

Wtf, I can eat faggot

Learning new stuff every day

They are well known in the UK and you can find them in most supermarkets.

 

[Acerac]

Everyone's experience means a lot, of course.

As long as you realize you might be hurting people unknowingly. If you're cool with that I have nothing more to add.

I learned to let the "stupid" definition slide off my back. Hearing the "real" definition in context, though, triggered (and still triggers) a very strong reaction.

It's amazing how fine the line can be between the two.

 

[Snuggles]

I don't need an apology for that. It doesn't bother me.

He's probably not apologizing to you then.

I think it's probably safe to say Jonah isn't a homophobe, and in that situation he was just pushed over the edge by some dickhead, but he made the right move by completely owning up to it and apologizing.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Current American usage of the word faggot for a homosexual is 100 years old.

American usage is 100 years old.

There is no one in this thread who was alive when fagot was used to refer to twigs. Pls try again.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Wow some people get SUPER defensive about this. No room for dissenting opinions and no room for even polite discussion, even if one party is approaching it as politely as possible. There's no need to be so hostile.

There may be some truth to this. But I'd also argue that there's no need to defend the usage of slurs. One's purported intent or personal interpretation of a word is largely irrelevant when it is (or should be) crystal clear to most people that a word is offensive.

 

[collige]

They do change, but clearly this one hasn't much. Gay people are still offended by the word "faggot" in a way that lame people are not.

True. But when and if the word changes is not something that is totally divorced by one's own actions, it's determined by our collective actions. The word has quite obviously been at least partially divorced from the strictly homophobic usage or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Advocating that people don't use it at all (and subsequently keeping it exclusively homophobic) seems counterproductive to me.

 

[cubicle47b]

Well, this thread is awful.

 

[Pankratous]

As long as you realize you might be hurting people unknowingly. If you're cool with that I have nothing more to add.

I don't actually use the word, I just don't find it offensive. I seldom swear in real life at all, to be honest.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I hardly ever use the word but when I do, it's always used towards someone of despicable character and never has anything to do with their sexual orientation.

oh

 

[KeeSomething]

All this because he said "faggot?"

When did everyone become such pussies? I've heard that word so much when I was a child and said it so many times back then that I'm immune to it now. It's a fucking word, not a crime against equal rights. Sure it's insulting, but so is half the shit posted on NeoGaf (mostly the snobbish posts). I share the same opinion with Louis CK.

 

[Carl]

I think he does get to decide what it means. We all do. Nobody owns that or any word. I hardly ever use the word but when I do, it's always used towards someone of despicable character and never has anything to do with their sexual orientation.

People who want to keep the word for it's most hateful form (it has changed meaning several times before it meant "homosexual") are trying to stop a spinning gun and keep it aimed at themselves and/or the ones they are trying to protect. Let the word evolve like it naturally has before we were born and like it will continue to after we are gone.

I think you put it better than i did. The meaning of the word is naturally changing usage and people are keeping it cemented in its offensive definition when that's not really what it means when many people use it (I know a lot of people do say it offensively)

 

[Yado]

Why are you insisting I'm saying it's okay to use.

I haven't said that anywhere. I'm explaining why the word is used so frequently outside of some giant homophobic conspiracy.

I'm not insisting that, I said you still seem to be grappling with the idea that a word like faggot is generally seen as a homophobic slur. I don't know why stupid shit you did as a kid matters when it comes to this word.

 

[Omegasquash]

Why are you insisting I'm saying it's okay to use.

I haven't said that anywhere. I'm explaining why the word is used so frequently outside of some giant homophobic conspiracy.

Hmmm....

I find it hard relating the insults like 'gay' and 'faggot' to homosexual people.

I have to admit growing up in the playground the word 'gay' was a standard put down amongst us kids. But it was just another word amongst an range of other silly words, idiot, moron, twat, wanker etc etc.

Growing up and realising the implication of using that word in an insult I've made an active effort to stop using it. But still, hearing it doesn't make me think 'oh that person is implicating that other person is a homosexual and hence not as good as us'. I think of it as just another word to put someone down with no real meaning.

It sucks but sometimes we have to look at who is using that word in what context, and not just at the words. Jonah Hill is not some closet homophobe using his power to degrade their rights. He was in a heavily agitated situation and resorted to an instinctual vocabulary of insults.

The fact he has to apologise and explain himself is ridiculous and a kick in the face to all the hard work and good he's already done for their cause. It's as if we are constantly suspicious of everyone and constantly looking for a reason to doubt them.

No, no you didn't explicitly say it, did you? You just said that you think of it as another word to put someone down. Which isn't saying it's OK. It's just saying "nah, he wasn't using a slur, because I don't think of it as a slur even though in the earlier sentence I said that it was and I actively don't use it because of that." Oh and you defended him, when his insult was used in the exact context that you know it's typically used.