What days are you referring to? Back when gays were discriminated against more than they are now? Back when you could say the N word and not receive backlash for it? Which days are you referring to? There certainly wasn't much equality in the days in which you speak of.
Jonah Hill on Calling a Paparazzo "Faggot"
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How the fuck do some of you get this so wrong? The fact that faggot and gay are used as general put downs makes it WORSE. It stems from a feeling that no one would ever want to be gay or be around anyone that's gay, and it's so terrible that simply suggesting you want to have sex with men is the worst insult most people can think of. Saying that calling someone a faggot isn't referring to them as gay is complete nonsense. Everyone knows what the damn word means and that's exactly why it's used that way. Even if you somehow missed what it means you're still using it because of those reasons whether you realize it or not.
What he's doing now is recognizing what he did wrong, owning up to it, apologizing and even trying to use it to educate. If even 1% of people reacted this way when they made a mistake the world would be an immeasurably better place, and he should be commended for doing the right thing.
What he's doing now is recognizing what he did wrong, owning up to it, apologizing and even trying to use it to educate. If even 1% of people reacted this way when they made a mistake the world would be an immeasurably better place, and he should be commended for doing the right thing.
Most people won't listen to a total stranger because they don't have status relative to them. Unfortunately that seems to be a baked-in issue with us as a species.
It slips out of some of my friends' mouths occasionally when they're upset, and the "Dude, please" look gets triggered, and is usually all the response that's necessary.
I have yet to anyone ever offer a coherent explanation for how the meaning of the word has changed to the extent that it has been divorced from its meaning as a homophobic slur - beyond simply asserting that it has. Its meaning as a homophobic slur is the basis for it being an insult in the first place. Even if one is using it in such a way that it is meant to indicate that the target is "stupid" or "dumbass," the very fact that it simultaneously is a slur for a gay man means that, regardless of intent, the speaker is conflating gay men with whatever negative qualities they are ascribing to the person they are calling a faggot.
And as a gay person I can tell you that when I hear someone say "faggot," my first thought is not, "Hey, maybe they just mean it as a general insult like "jerk." I don't care if you think the meaning has changed; it hasn't for gay people and we're - to be quite blunt about it - the ones whose experience of the word matters in this debate.
KaiserBecks
Member
This whole thing is so ironic. Would you guys actually be offended by what some guy says on the street? How are you coping with life?
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I personally think that If you censor peoples opinion and call them apologists it's basically like pissing someone in the face.
If you can't even question the establishment of why things are they way they are, you're removing all examination to why these situations end up like this in the first place.
Indirectly it's causing great harm, because people who are truly biggots and homophobic will latch on to new words that mean harmful things. Then it's not a victory at all because Jonah Hill spend 2 minutes writing an apology on twitter while taking a dump.
I don't think there are anyone here who wants to walk around and say the word faggot. Maybe I am being to naive or thinking to highly of my fellow gaffers, but I just don't think want to be accused of "if you dont think like this you're basically X and Y".
I think most people who you call apologists are merely questioning if this is the sort of censorship that will help fight homophobia. At least that's what I am. Why would I even say something like that?
I don't think it will. I just think it makes the word faggot more powerful. It's emotional meaning gets loaded even more.
When I was little obesity was extremely uncommon in my country, and in my school we were only two kids in the entire school who was obese. Both me and the other obese kid got bullied, but when a kid would go over to me and say "hey fatberg" I would just agree and say yeah "I'm so fat. I'm really fat fat". Once I started denouncing the word like it was some trauma, my own sadness of it was removed, and they actually stopped bullying me completely. While the other kid was more sensitive and got angry. Got bullied all his life, and I think this change in attitude is what made the difference between me and him.
I took away the only thing those shitheads could use to hurt me. My chantra was just - its just a word, why am I getting upset over a word? It's not like I need to care about their judgement. At first I felt I got back at them, but eventually I learned it's just a state of mind.
I'm not comparing my fat story to homosexuals being discriminated against, but I am saying that as a person you have a responsibility on how you choose to view the world. There are things that offends me deeply. Things that have happened to me and they make me angry and I feel I have the right through all my misery, neglect and abuse to censor other people, but I can't. The world just wouldn't be able to go around if we all gave in to this.
My best friend is gay, and/or is becoming transgender, and he hates the word. We've had long talks about the use of the word faggot and retard and other slurs.
I don't hang out with people who say those things unless in a jokingly characterized manner. Slurs is sign of weak vocal prowess. According to Stephen Covey, 90% of all slurs used by people is to give their statements more power. For every fuck you use in daily speech is actually you saying "Im not able to communicate clearly enough what I want to say, so I put in this hail-mary to emphasis what I feel".
I feel censorship and political correctness is poison. Homophobia is real. It's subtle. It happens in the pathways, and attacking celebrities using the word is like pushing pimples expecting your acne to go away. Your not dealing with the root of the problem, you're just shouting witch and being professionally outraged, while the homophobia keeps existing.
That's what I feel at least.
Phire Phox
Banned
Good on him. He owned up to it and apologized. Hope he can leave this behind him.
Angelus Errare
Banned
While you are banned; I'm going to say this addressed to anyone who feels the same way.
While no one "owns" a word (trademarks!) society at large dictates the meaning and intent of a word as does the group the word is lobbied against. You'll find that in 2014; faggot is a word that is still aimed to dehumanize and insult homosexuals much like it was 100 years ago. You can post the dictionary definition of faggot, but let's be honest. No one living right now associates the word primarily with a bundle of sticks. To clarify because I know you sometimes have to post things like 8 times and simplify it more each time. I'm not saying that there aren't people who don't know the word fagot was used when referring to a bundle of sticks (though you should immediately be able to tell how it came to be an insult to homosexuals). I'm saying that no one alive can claim ignorance and state they meant of bundle of sticks and "didn't know" it was an insult to homosexuals.
While faggot hasn't had as long or deep of a history as a word of oppression when compared to Nigger, right now today both of them are very much venomous words. And the word faggot just like "nigga" have been used as terms of endearment in both of those communities. Because the two groups find solidarity in that word; but just because those two groups have turned it into a term of endearment is not a ticket for others to continue using it as an insult to degrade said groups.
I find the questions of "how come I can't say faggot/nigger" to be concerning, the question should be WHY would you want to say those words when you are of neither group? WHY must you resort to those words? These same people like to put forth the argument that words have no power; but if they truly believed that then they wouldn't need/want to say them in the first place. The reason many people want to use them as their word of choice when insulting someone from said groups is because to that person, it gives them power and dominion over those groups of people. It mentally props them up and makes them believe they are better than the people they just lobbed those words to. It makes them feel superior in a world where they're no better than no one else; and honestly it's sad and pathetic.
As an African-American or for those who like to argue because reasons; as an Afro-Latino American who has lived his entire life in other countries; when people say we've come so far, I always respond with not far enough. For as much as somethings have changed, much more has remained the same. People are still scared to talk about these things (those being the plights of being a minority of any kind in the US) and just as many tend to dismiss the suggestion that there is still a very big problem when it comes to both race relations and sexual preference relations in the US. You can blame fear, ignorance or whatever as the reason for wanting to ignore such (because never in the US history has "ignoring" a social problem ever made it go away); yet constantly people suggest ignoring racism/homophobia will make it go away).
Really though, America can do better.
And no just because our President is black doesn't mean racism has been defeated; and no just because same sex marriage is being approved in many states doesn't mean homophobia has been defeated. As long as people continue to shy away from conversation about it because they're uncomfortable or dismiss it as simply "ignorance" or "boys being boys" it's always going to be a problem in this country. And no pointing fingers at other countries and saying "look at how much worse they are!" does nothing to change the topic at hand.
My .10 cents, the 02. cents were free.
What happened to the good ol' days. Amirite.
Or something like that.
Ignorant, regressed people dont like the sight of change and don't like the future since they're already engrossed with idolizing the past.
Or something like that.
Okay I'll stop you right there. No one is suggesting censoring anyones blantantly fucked up opinions. Calling them out on it is not censorship.
Jonah Hill isn't a guy on the street. He is in a position where he can influence others.
KaiserBecks
Member
Yes, that's the irony. He can influence others because he is surround by paparazzi. Expecting people who are under that kind of pressure to be role models is just silly.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
OrlanisWorks
Banned
Sincere apology. Dig it.
Best we can do is avoid using terms like "fag."
Best we can do is avoid using terms like "fag."
Circle Jerk
Member
how is that ironic
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Oh Homer, you are the living end.
I don't think asking people to refrain from saying the word faggot = expecting them to be role models. It's pretty easy to say other words.
Yeah, I also miss the days when you can insult a minority and get away with it. It's almost like they think they're just as good as us straight white guys.
The fact that a significant amount of people use it in a non-homophobic manner is all I need. Collective usage is the only thing that determines word meanings so if there's a significant chunk of the population that uses a word in a way that's different from the traditional usage, I don't think that's something that can be ignored.
Which is why I said earlier that context matters. If, for example, Dan Savage were to call someone a faggot in a negative fashion, no one would think he's a homophobe.
I also take offensive to the implication that I can't be gay because of my position in this debate.
Dan Savage is a known biphobe and an asshole. He doesn't need to use faggot to make people think he's a jackass.
Yeah, that wasn't the best example, but he was the first person to come to mind. Feel free to replace his name with George Takei or any other LGBT person of interest of your choice.
This is what amazes me - the self-righteous contortions of logic all to continue to stubbornly use a word for no particular reason. Why is "that word hurts people... guess I'll avoid it" so tough for some people?
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Certain people don't like being told "no".
I love Louis CK's more updated , more open minded take on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-55wC5dEnc
ZombiePlatypus
Member
It's shitty that he used the slur, but as an average viewer, I don't get the impression that he's a bigoted person. He did the right thing and apologized, and it didn't come across half-assed or backhanded. Cut the guy some slack.
I think it's important to remember how potent these words can be, but at the same time, I hate tip-toeing around them cause I feel like it just gives them more power.
I think it's important to remember how potent these words can be, but at the same time, I hate tip-toeing around them cause I feel like it just gives them more power.
Not that I'm defending anybody who thinks 'faggot' is ok to use as an insult, but it would be far worse if Jonah had directed this to somebody that he knew was gay, don't you think?CHEEZMO™;114758254 said:
Severity and intent should be considered here, I'd say.
And *again*, because people here are notoriously bad at glossing over the point and jumping to conclusions, I am *not* defending Jonah as if he didn't do anything bad. He knew what he said was wrong and the tone of his apology reflects that.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I think everyone has blind spots. I don't think many people out there -- even if they can concede the existence of these blind spots -- are keen on seeing themselves as bad people. It's a natural reaction to defend oneself when called out. I do think that there is room in the discussion to consider whether or not some individuals are overly eager to take offense at every potentially offensive thing in the universe. I think there can be room to give people the benefit of the doubt and not always assume the worst at the utterance of every non-politically correct syllable.
However, the flipside is that I think that people absolutely should try to be cognizant not just of what they think they're saying, but also how it can be interpreted. Now obviously if you're going out of your way to twist my words and quote things I've said out of context just to make me appear to be a monster, that's not really my problem. But at the same time, I have a responsibility to try to communicate my thoughts clearly and effectively, and that necessitates understanding what words mean. Not just what I think words mean, but the broader context behind them.
Maybe some slurs really don't have much of a negative connotation surrounding them in my close social circle. Maybe I'm taken aback a bit when I see a celebrity taking heat for the word "faggot" knowing full well that I use it when hanging out with my buddies and don't really see the harm. I erroneously assume that the point of the conversation taking place right now is to demonize people across the board for using a word instead of trying to understand the overall context of the conversation. But if that's the case, I kind of feel like that's on me.
Yes, I can understand some concern about prioritizing weeding out more serious forms of bigotry. But at the same time it's important to realize that for many people, this kind of thing permeates throughout their day to day interactions. I'm very much against homophobic behavior, but I'm also not gay. I'd be lying if I argued that taking a stand against homophobia is high priority in my life. It's not something that affects me. As such, I don't really see it as my place to be the final arbiter of what is a real problem and what problems are simply the result of manufactured outrage.
There's something to be said in regards to "sticks and stones" arguments. Words can't hurt if you don't let them. But I don't think everyone has the same amount of impulse control or can just bottle up their emotions. It'd be great if we could all have thick skin and not be concerned about being insulted, but for many, many people, words do have power.
Why? Directing at someone whom he doesn't know is gay is just saying 'you're gay and that's a bad thing'.
This is some whack position. "Well hey more than fifty percent so whatever". Ever heard the phrase "tyranny of the majority"?
It's a particular problem in this case where the word in it's anti-gay directed meaning reflects an oppression by the heterosexual majority on a minority.
The reason people use it as a generic insult is that they heard it hurled with sincere disdain and violence by bad people against gay people. They thought "oh this is powerful", but any usage today hinges on the fact that the word is steeped in biggoted hate.
There are so many good insults in the world! Like "dingus" or "blockhead"! Why make a stand for this one!
It's using sexuality as a put-down, I don't think it matters who you are aiming it at.
Steve Youngblood
Member
CHEEZMO™;114762103 said:
Heh, yeah. I understand to some extent that old habits can die hard, and that it can be difficult to come to terms with a disconnect between my intent and how something I've said is being interpreted. Obviously, it'd be a bummer if you're being accused of being bigoted when you honestly don't feel that you are. But I think the right reaction is to simply think "Maybe I should stop using this word." At the very least, strongly consider doing that publicly and be aware of how people may react if it slips out. What often isn't effective is concern trolling or disingenuous "isn't calling out this kind of thing in and of itself destructive to progress" rhetoric.
I am not saying at all that "more than fifty percent" use it in a non-homophobic way. Nor am I saying that using the word in public indiscriminately like Hill did was a good idea. I am saying that using it as a general usage insult is fine in a blatantly non-homophobic context (which would generally translate to being with private company), especially considering that it's already used plenty as a general purpose, if very unpleasant, insult.
And come on now, you gotta admit "blockhead" is a pretty lame insult. Captain Haddock has the interesting insult game on lock:
It's such a good explanation of how many young boys grow up around the term, it's just a shame people use it to defend still using the term, rather than to use it to self-reflect on why they're attached to it.
I'm from Jabronistan and I find that word highly offensive! Try to keep it classy and try a bit of Shakespeare instead:
"Thou clay-brained guts, thou knotty-pated fool, thou whoreson obscene greasy tallow-catch!"
Henry IV part 1
What when it's someone British referring to a cigarette? Does that also have homophobic roots?
MindCollizion
Member
yes because it goes in your mouth.
Na but seriously, the way people are so sensitive to words publicly is very interesting. I would have never imagined that people would react in this manner.
The only reason it became more generalised is because of casual homophobia. In the same way gay started being used to say something was shit.
You can't divorce something being used a put-down from the negative it is implying.
Or are you happy with people saying "That's gay" as well?
Faggot is an ugly word with an ugly history, just let it die.
Nikodemos
Member
Tell an American you'd like to "bum a fag" and I'm pretty certain they won't understand it as "mooch a smoke".
Tell a GAFfer, and they'll simply point you to the Grindr Tutorial.
Oh great. Liberal bullshit. What's next, I can't say n*gger?
THANKS OBAMA
Also, seriously, good for Jonah to own it and apologize. No bullshit sympathy training or anything, just an apology.
It's amazing to see how many people value the ability to retain their offensive vocabulary over any sensitivity a minority that's been oppressed by it may feel from hearing it.
Using "gay" and whatnot as an insult doesn't divorce itself from its connotations because you happen to "not be homophobic"; using it as an insult reinforces its meaning as a putdown while still being attached to an entire group of people, and therefore stating that they're lesser whether you intend to or not. You contribute to that toxic environment out of a selfish sense of empowerment.
"But it's okay, I can use it because I vote Democrat".
Edit: Also, good on Jonah for a timely and sincere apology, but as always, its usage in the first place reflects a problem that needs to be addressed.
Using "gay" and whatnot as an insult doesn't divorce itself from its connotations because you happen to "not be homophobic"; using it as an insult reinforces its meaning as a putdown while still being attached to an entire group of people, and therefore stating that they're lesser whether you intend to or not. You contribute to that toxic environment out of a selfish sense of empowerment.
"But it's okay, I can use it because I vote Democrat".
Edit: Also, good on Jonah for a timely and sincere apology, but as always, its usage in the first place reflects a problem that needs to be addressed.
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